Are we allowed to call Trump's regime fascism now?

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

He's a fascist, but it's almost accidental. Trump's a fascist for the same reason he's a racist, a sexist, anti-immigration and the same reason for every other personality trait, because it works up the Dems which makes his base love him more.

Sorry, but this is not true. Trump was racist and sexist long before entering politics. He has always been a liar and a grifter with no sense of decency who thinks he is above the law. When Trump demeans people and talks about ******** countries and admires dictators that's not trolling, it's just Trump.

The only thing 'accidental' about Trump's fascism was his getting into a position of power where he could practice it.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Sorry, but this is not true. Trump was racist and sexist long before entering politics. He has always been a liar and a grifter with no sense of decency who thinks he is above the law. When Trump demeans people and talks about ******** countries and admires dictators that's not trolling, it's just Trump.

The only thing 'accidental' about Trump's fascism was his getting into a position of power where he could practice it.

I think it's quite clear that Trump's generally chauvinistic instincts are genuine expressions of his character, and that directly influences how he sees his role as President.

My point is that I don't think Trump has a deeply thought out fascistic ideology, or any ideology. I don't think he really has any or vision for this country other than remaining personally in power, and I doubt he cares much about what happens after he is gone. I can't imagine Trump caring about his legacy or the future of the nation once he's out of the picture. He's no Hitler planning a thousand year Reich.

It's splitting hairs, because his personal opportunism and approach to politics means that the country is still slipping into an authoritarian fascistic state. Of course, even if he were lose decisively in November and leave politics forever, the damage is already done. He has demonstrated that there is a viable path in this country for right-wing authoritarians and has energized a rabid base that is clamoring for fascism. The next proto-fascist will likely be much more disciplined, strategic, and dangerous.

[Darat]

Given his latest shenanigans with TikTok it really does look more and more like fascism. (State approved industry and state getting a cut for giving property to their chosen company).

However whilst he does have much power I don't think that he has enough to turn the USA into a "real" fascist state, but he's going to do his best* anyway.


*Remember he fails at everything he tries to do, so don't worry you'll just be cleaning up his crap for decades!

[SuburbanTurkey]

The Justice Department is attempting to categorize the domestic anti-police, anti-racism protests to a foreign organization under extremely flimsy pretexts. Doing so would allow them to use violate civil right protections for American citizens.

Quote:

While the law generally prohibits intelligence agencies from spying on US residents, many of those protections do not apply if the individual is believed to be acting as an agent of a foreign power.

“Designating someone as foreign-sponsored can make a huge legal and practical difference in the government’s ability to pursue them,” explained Steven Aftergood, who heads the Project on Government Secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists. “It’s a crucial distinction. Once someone (or some group) is identified as an agent of a foreign power, they are subject to warrantless search and surveillance in a way that would be illegal and unconstitutional for any other US person. The whole apparatus of US intelligence can be brought to bear on someone who is considered an agent of a foreign power.”

https://www.thenation.com/article/so...-antifa-syria/

The pretext for this categorization is that a half dozen American leftists traveled to Syria to fight alongside the Kurds in groups like the YPG. This is not unlawful and these people are quite open about their involvement fighting alongside the Kurds. The Kurds were at various points considered US allies in the region.

Yes, it's that idiotic. A handful of leftists traveled to fight with the Kurds and waved a few antifa flags and ****-post on twitter, now the entire BLM movement is being labeled an internationally coordinated terrorist group.


Brace Belden, as witty as ever:

Quote:

“I am not now nor have I ever been a member of any antifa organization,” he told The Nation. “The US government has been spying on and smearing communists for 100 years, but they usually have the decency not to call a Red an anarchist!”

Highly recommend True Anon, the podcast that Belden co-hosts.

It's already absurd to claim that "antifa" is some organized nation-wide movement. Tying it to Kurdish nationals is a further absurdity.

Quote:

“Aside from a single instance derived from open-source reporting, there does not appear to be evidence of a centralized effort to give marching orders to returning ANTIFA-affiliated USPER [US person] foreign fighters once they return to the United States.”

Seems clear that Trump's Justice Department is attempting to label the broad sweep of American leftists as foreign terrorists so that he can legally violate their civil rights.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I think it's quite clear that Trump's generally chauvinistic instincts are genuine expressions of his character, and that directly influences how he sees his role as President.

My point is that I don't think Trump has a deeply thought out fascistic ideology, or any ideology. I don't think he really has any or vision for this country other than remaining personally in power, and I doubt he cares much about what happens after he is gone. I can't imagine Trump caring about his legacy or the future of the nation once he's out of the picture. He's no Hitler planning a thousand year Reich.

And that was my point as well. I wasn't trying to argue that Trump isn't racist or fascist, just that he's not putting a lot of effort into it mentally.

Trump isn't someone we can throw a monkey wrench into his plans because he doesn't have any.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The Justice Department is attempting to categorize the domestic anti-police, anti-racism protests to a foreign organization under extremely flimsy pretexts. Doing so would allow them to use violate civil right protections for American citizens.

...snip...



Seems clear that Trump's Justice Department is attempting to label the broad sweep of American leftists as foreign terrorists so that he can legally violate their civil rights.

"..While the law generally prohibits intelligence agencies from spying on US residents, many of those protections do not apply if the individual is believed to be acting as an agent of a foreign power.
.."

So that's why the Obama administration was spying on Trump! Good for Trump to let us know.

[varwoche]

A belated reply to the various Baghdad Bobs who posted upthread, mocking this thread.

I'm embarrased on your behalf. So locked into status quo. So unable to see past the fiction we were all taught about checks and balances. So locked into American superiority. So locked into shallow memes. So locked into it can't happen here. Wake up.
/soapbox

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

As opposed to the Left which wants stalinist style Communist, how is that any better?

This is an example of your fascist overlords telling you to think and you failing to ascertain whether it's actually true.

Telling conservatives scary stories to get them to believe that a dictatorship is the only answer is a standard play for any authoritarian regime. Even supposedly left leaning authoritarian regime use this tactic to scare conservatives into supporting the regime.

[varwoche]

It's bleakly amusing seeing the dictionary definition of fascism. Numbers added:

(1) exalts nation above the individual
(2) exalts race above the individual
(3) stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader
(4) stands for severe economic and social regimentation
(5) stands for forcible suppression of opposition

check, check, check, check, check

(That's the full list. I didn't omit non-applicable bits.)

[varwoche]

"Inflection point" gets bandied about lately. I think yesterday's "pandemic briefing" was an inflection point, due to Trump's breathtaking escalation against the post office.

These anti-democratic actions will make it impossible to trust the results if Trump manages to pull it off. There will be social strife that will make May-June look like a kumbaya session. That social strife will be dealt with harshly by the authoritarian thug. Trump will declare a state of emergency and Fascism will be fully realized. States will succeed. There will be a civil war.

If he's going to steal the election, here's a plausible path. This depends on there being one or more states controlled by GOP that Biden wins, e.g. Ohio and Florida, without which Biden would fail to reach 270 EC votes.

1. The GOP controlled state(s) declare a state of emergency after the election, ostensibly due to pandemic
2. The governor(s) prevents the state meeting where electors are chosen.
3. Neither candidate gets 270 votes.
4. The House then determines, with each state delegation getting one vote.

Done.

[The Great Zaganza]

In a way, Obama's decision not to cast shade on the questionable 2016 election, demonstrably influenced by Russia, might help Biden in 2020: there is no precedent for a President calling an election illegitimate.
Trump would have to provide a lot of actual evidence for the Supreme Court to allow him to hold a new election.
And in the meantime, the Speaker of the House would take his job.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

In a way, Obama's decision not to cast shade on the questionable 2016 election, demonstrably influenced by Russia, might help Biden in 2020: there is no precedent for a President calling an election illegitimate.
Trump would have to provide a lot of actual evidence for the Supreme Court to allow him to hold a new election.
And in the meantime, the Speaker of the House would take his job.

He wouldn't need to, were that scenario to occur. All he has to do is nudge things to make sure no one gets 270 votes.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

In a way, Obama's decision not to cast shade on the questionable 2016 election, demonstrably influenced by Russia, might help Biden in 2020: there is no precedent for a President calling an election illegitimate.
Trump would have to provide a lot of actual evidence for the Supreme Court to allow him to hold a new election.
And in the meantime, the Speaker of the House would take his job.

Assumes that it will be President Trump who is contesting the election result.

[rockysmith76]

Originally Posted by The Don

Assumes that it will be President Trump who is contesting the election result.

It's likely going to be contested either way. Tensions being as high as they are.

[Earthborn]

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

As opposed to the Left which wants stalinist style Communist, how is that any better?

I am sure that next time he has Putin on the phone, Trump will tell how bad Stalin was...

[BobTheCoward]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

In a way, Obama's decision not to cast shade on the questionable 2016 election, demonstrably influenced by Russia, might help Biden in 2020: there is no precedent for a President calling an election illegitimate.
Trump would have to provide a lot of actual evidence for the Supreme Court to allow him to hold a new election.
And in the meantime, the Speaker of the House would take his job.

The best reason to not cast shade because of Russian influence is because it makes you state the party is dependent on the gullible and easily confused.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Widespread problems with mail in ballots, a forced problem caused by sabotaging the post office, is the perfect pretext for Trump to try to contest the election.

It won't work if it's a blowout, but a close contest, perhaps hinging on a few key states, would allow for Trump to try to fudge the numbers.

Trump won't try to remain in power through some bloody coup. He isn't going to be rolling the tanks onto the White House lawn. Bush V. Gore has already blazed the trail for how to steal an election, through litigation hinging on technical details.

A sufficiently crippled USPS means lots of ballots that will be late through no fault of the voters. Ballots with on time postmarks that weren't delivered on time, ballots with late postmarks, ballots with no postmarks, mail in vs. in person ballots, etc etc etc. Lots of fodder for a bad-faith lawsuit that will eventually end up before the conservative SCOTUS. The Trump admin will find a legal reasoning that supports why these delayed ballots should only be counted in a way that is beneficial to him, and the SCOTUS will endorse it.


While Republican legislators may not be willing to back a naked coup, some pretext over ballot integrity will allow them to back the party line without a moment's doubt.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Widespread problems with mail in ballots, a forced problem caused by sabotaging the post office, is the perfect pretext for Trump to try to contest the election.

It won't work if it's a blowout, but a close contest, perhaps hinging on a few key states, would allow for Trump to try to fudge the numbers.

Trump won't try to remain in power through some bloody coup. He isn't going to be rolling the tanks onto the White House lawn. Bush V. Gore has already blazed the trail for how to steal an election, through litigation hinging on technical details.

A sufficiently crippled USPS means lots of ballots that will be late. Ballots with on time postmarks that weren't delivered, ballots with late postmarks, ballots with no postmarks. mail in vs. in person ballots, etc etc etc. Lots of fodder for a bad-faith lawsuit that will eventually end up before the conservative SCOTUS. The Trump admin will find a legal reasoning that supports why these delayed ballots should only be counted in a way that is beneficial to him, and the SCOTUS will endorse it.

While Republican legislators may not be willing to back a naked coup, some pretext over ballot integrity will allow them to back the party line without a moment's doubt.

Has anything of the sort ever been done in US history? This level of cheating to win a presidential election?

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Has anything of the sort ever been done in US history? This level of cheating to win a presidential election?

1960 ? (if accounts of Kennedy benefiting from mafia help are anything to go by)

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Has anything of the sort ever been done in US history? This level of cheating to win a presidential election?

Bush v. Gore. A partisan SCOTUS decision that bent itself into legal pretzels in order to justify why stopping the recount of a contested election was the correct remedy.

Rather than go through the work of defining what was a legal vote in Florida and ordering a manual recount to finally get a correct result, they adopted a very technical reasoning that concluded that getting the accurate vote count was an impermissible damage to Bush. In a voting case, the accuracy of the vote count was seen as a second priority.

Such formalistic logic, clearly a pretext for partisan gain, could easily be deployed again in a case where there may be multiple different classes of delayed or otherwise non-standard ballots cast due to covid and problems with the mail.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Bush v. Gore. A partisan SCOTUS decision that bent itself into legal pretzels in order to justify why stopping the recount of a contested election was the correct remedy.

I'm not sure it qualifies as being as broad an effort to break the system. You at least had to get to the point where a recount was necessary.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Belz...

I'm not sure it qualifies as being as broad an effort to break the system. You at least had to get to the point where a recount was necessary.

Sure. That's why I qualify that the election would have to be close. Overturning a decisive victory is probably a bridge too far for the SCOTUS.

Quibbling over marginal victories in swing states, in which mail-in votes using emergency Covid-19 re-writes to voting law, could easily be fertile ground for a legal challenge. I could see a conservative SCOTUS either forcing or stopping a recount, or making decisions for what counts as a lawful vote based on whatever pretextual arguments are made by the conservatives.

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Sure. That's why I qualify that the election would have to be close. Overturning a decisive victory is probably a bridge too far for the SCOTUS.

Quibbling over marginal victories in swing states, in which mail-in votes using emergency Covid-19 re-writes to voting law, could easily be fertile ground for a legal challenge.

I think it's fairly obvious that this is what is being set up. It's one line of cheating that will be used this fall.

[Belz...]

Well let's just hope our fears are unfounded and all goes well.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by uke2se

I think it's fairly obvious that this is what is being set up. It's one line of cheating that will be used this fall.

Indeed. Cities tend to be blue, and suppressing the vote of big cities in swing states is the way to make sure it goes Trump's way.

In person voting is most dangerous in big cities, and the lack of poll workers and other covid-19 problems likely means that in-person voting will be most delayed in large cities. Seems likely that city voters will have more incentive than most to vote by mail.

Meanwhile, voters in less populated areas may have no problem just voting in person.

I could easily see a situation where the early tally shows Trump in the lead, with mail-in votes that may come days later tipping the vote the other way. Should that be the case, you can bet your ass there will be litigation to try to make these mail in votes not count for some pretext or another.

[varwoche]

"My authority is total"

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by varwoche

"My authority is total"

Did he actually say that?

[varwoche]

Yes

[SuburbanTurkey]

Maybe we can have OAS come in and monitor the election

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by varwoche

Yes

Implicit in the question was the request to have a source.

[varwoche]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Implicit in the question was the request to have a source.

Sorry about that. I added a link.

The word choice is bleakly hilarious. Cuz ya know, we call leaders with total power totalitarians.

[JoeMorgue]

We've literally reached the point in the Bond movie where the bad guy is monologuing his evil plan because he thinks it is too late to stop him.

Yeah I'd say were safe in calling a spade a spade at this point.

Any Trumper disagree prove it by not being a troll for .0004 seconds and explain literally anything your leader is doing in any way that makes human sense.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive

Are we allowed to call Trump's regime fascism now?

Yes, you are allowed to call it fascist. Do you know why? Because it isn't.

You aren't allowed to call actual fascist regimes fascist, because they are fascist and fascists don't let you call them fascists. I know, it's ironic, but that's reality.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Yes, you are allowed to call it fascist. Do you know why? Because it isn't.

You aren't allowed to call actual fascist regimes fascist, because they are fascist and fascists don't let you call them fascists. I know, it's ironic, but that's reality.

Cool story.

Hey, isn't it odd that the DOJ is laying the ground works to call the nebulously defined "antifa" a foreign linked terrorist organization in order to authorize extraordinary domestic surveillance.

Good thing that isn't fascism, sure looks like the ground work for classifying political prisoners to me!

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Yes, you are allowed to call it fascist. Do you know why? Because it isn't.

You aren't allowed to call actual fascist regimes fascist, because they are fascist and fascists don't let you call them fascists. I know, it's ironic, but that's reality.

Yet more "Trump's not bad enough because he's not so bad that calling him bad wouldn't make a difference" nonsense.

"Trump's not facist, he just wants to be and is trying to be" isn't an argument.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Yes, you are allowed to call it fascist. Do you know why? Because it isn't.

You aren't allowed to call actual fascist regimes fascist, because they are fascist and fascists don't let you call them fascists. I know, it's ironic, but that's reality.

Not necessarily. Fascism comes in stages.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Not necessarily. Fascism comes in stages.

Nope. Hitler wasn't a fash until 1933 when they opened Dachau. Until then, everything was fine actually and people complaining were just silly panic-mongers.

Yes, I am very smart, and this is a serious argument.

[JoeMorgue]

Again this is one of their core argumentative trolling tactics. Until it happens you're "just being dramatic" and when it happens well it's too late to do anything.

[varwoche]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Yes, you are allowed to call it fascist. Do you know why? Because it isn't.

You aren't allowed to call actual fascist regimes fascist, because they are fascist and fascists don't let you call them fascists. I know, it's ironic, but that's reality.

Fine. You're right. It's a nascent fascist regime led by a wannabe fascist. Whew, that's a relief.

[carlitos]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Bush v. Gore. A partisan SCOTUS decision that bent itself into legal pretzels in order to justify why stopping the recount of a contested election was the correct remedy.

Let me know if I'm on the right track:

• Covid-19 introduced by Obama regime, who sold it to the Chinese
• China spreads it to USA
• Pandemic shuts down economy for months
• Demand for business suits and business casual clothing plummets
• Brooks Brothers files for bankruptcy
• Roger Stone and Matt Schlap cannot convene another riot due to lack of khakis