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#241 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,766
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#242 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,766
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#243 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,300
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Yes, but Craig4 was specifically referring to a vote for president, and the way that it is set up, it really does seem as though voting for president in a number of states is not worth it.
That said, you should still vote. Texas might even come into play this year as the vote has narrowed. I also know Americans who did not vote last time believing that their own vote in Michigan would not be of any consequence, except Michigan did swing to Trump. At the very least, voting in California for the Democrats helps to illustrate how ridiculous the EC is. If people stayed home or only voted down-ballot, people could look at the vote tally and say, "See, the EC vote is pretty much in line with the popular vote." I think you guys, as Americans ought to use your votes to expose who ridiculous it is to have such a discrepancy. |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#244 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,557
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One of my biggest issues with the EC is that it creates this popular image of huge, landslide victories that don't actually happen.
In 1972 Richard Nixon defeated George McGovern 520 EC votes to 17 (one faithless elector casting a vote for Libertarian candidate John Hospers instead of the pledged Nixon/Agnew ticket accounts for the odd vote out.) 520 to 17 is a slaughter. If you're playing a sporting event and you lose 520 to 17 you never had a chance of winning. You have to wonder why you even tried. Even if a voting populace understands the EC perfectly well on a literal mental level you can't say that isn't emotionally draining and demoralizing. But the popular vote, while still a strong, no-ifandsorbuts about it win for Nixon, was only 60.67% to 37.52%. If you lose 6 to 4 it feels a lot more like you still had a chance to win. It's still getting beat, beat bad but it's not embarrassing. It's not a blowout. It doesn't make you wonder why you even tried. Being down 4 points to 6 is something you can come back from. Being down 520 to 17 is not. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#245 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,766
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And in the fake videos that support Trump, paid for with taxpayer dollars category:
Paid for by US taxpayer money: Yahoo News stream: 'The Gotaway': Online video produced and posted by the Border Patrol spreads fear of migrants
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![]() There is a wealth of research that has found that people who entered the country illegally are less likely to commit crimes than those who were born here. So promoting racism: check Vilifying undocumented immigrants: check Fear mongering: check Using taxpayer dollars for a political ad: check Kissing Trump's ass somewhere along the line: check |
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#246 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,972
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Well, we have been told that Mexico is sending us their rapists and murderers after all.
![]() I was attacked when I was 22 when I lived in California. Thankfully, I fought back and was unharmed except for a black eye. He wasn't from Mexico. Or Hispanic. |
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#247 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,607
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#248 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,389
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UnAmerican - the Lincoln Project
I understand that they are hammering this message now (gotta forge while the iron is hot), but I think their main weapon leading up to the election should be how Trump decided fighting covid "didn't make sense politically" (to quote Kushner), because the virus was hitting blue states the hardest. It's the strongest argument against Trump that I can think of. |
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"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig |
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#249 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,612
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So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do? |
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#250 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,766
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The Biden campaign needs to go after whatever the Trump du jour argument is.
Trump talks about how much he loves soldiers [gag] hit him with all of his own clips denigrating the military. He's claiming now that wars are perpetuated by the military industrial complex. That's actually true. So Biden needs to show the evidence Trump is in support of any and every large corporation including the military producers. That expose on the Kushner COVID response is important to put out there in campaign ads. |
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#251 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,325
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If Biden simply runs on "Not Trump" then I fear that this will not turn out well
![]() If this is the sole message then I anticipate a large number of voters will simply stay at home because they don't like either candidate (and fail to grasp that one candidate is about a billion times worse than the other) and President Trump's base will swing it in his favour. I've said it many, many, times: Democratic Presidential candidates who have been elected since 1980 have been "rock stars" with charisma and an intoxicating, positive, message. Bland candidates have been unsuccessful every time. Joe Biden is bland IMO |
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#252 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,328
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Who says it's the sole message?
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Of course republicans will vote for Trump anyway, no matter how much they dislike him or how much they like Biden. So it's up to democrats (and left-leaning 'independents') to not just like Biden, but get off their backsides and vote. I don't think many will make the same mistake they did last time. But please do keep up the doom and gloom. The less certain it is that Biden will win, the more people will be scared into making it happen.
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We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
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#253 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,325
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In Presidential Elections since 1980 that seems to be the case - and with Democratic voters.
Bill Clinton and Barack Obama - rock stars Hillary, Gore, Carter, Mondale, Kerry, Dukakis, doubtless lovely people, many, most or all of whom would have made perfectly satisfactory presidents, but IMO they lacked the wow factor that would have turned out the vote. OTOH, Republicans seem to like personable dopes. Reagan, Dubya, Trump all managed to convince Republican voters that they were the kind of person they would like to spend time with - George HW was an outlier. OTOH Dole, HW (second time), McCain and Romney all came across as smart but somewhat unapproachable. |
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#254 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,557
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I think it's paradoxically both more complex and simpler than that.
The Democrats (and at times the Republicans as well) tend to foster in their strategy this mentality that most voters are sitting down and actually putting deep thought into who they vote for, that voters across the country are sitting down and actually listing out pros and cons, run cost benefit analysis, and Real talk with some unpleasant truth. Most voters in America choose who they are going to vote for based on a more more vague, much more gut feeling. It's a term I've expressed my issues with in the past, but "Electibility" is a very real thing, regardless of how hard it is to define a metric for. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#255 |
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,279
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Especially if he undermines that message by taking SG-like advice and ends up highlighting similarities between Trump and himself, or between Trump and the Democrats in general, instead of the differences.
Biden's only advantage is that Trump is Trump instead of any previous Republican Presidential candidate. The latter point does not contradict the former. Both points can be true and are: that Democrat voters vote more for someone who gives them something exciting to vote for, and that Trump is an example of Republican voters doing the same. And Democrat strategy has usually been to apply the concept exactly backward from reality, claiming that the type that always loses for them is the winning type and the only type that's won for them is the losing type. I dread what's about to become of the party if this election finally gives them their very first example ever that finally goes the way they've been claiming it would. |
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#256 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,332
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The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure. |
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#257 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,300
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__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#258 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,972
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#259 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,766
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#260 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,300
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Yes, it is up to the voters to do that, but it is also up to the Democratic Party to inspire them to do that.
Trump will repeat the whole "America First, MAGA, Keep America Great, China Virus, Law and Order, Let's protect the nice* suburbs from the urban* decay" narrative, but Biden needs one of his own. I would say it is nowhere near as clear and obvious what that is. |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#261 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,300
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I think this is a case of "over-fitting" the data. Al Gore and Hillary Clinton received more votes than their Republican rivals so it can't simply be a case of voters being turned off by "non-rock stars". You also have to factor in other variables such as the electoral college, or party strategy.
Besides, is Trump "personable"? |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#262 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,325
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You're right, but a proper "rock star" candidate can blow through all of that so that it doesn't matter any more whereas a "worthy" candidate fails to inspire enough support and leaves themselves susceptible to the vagaries of the Electoral College and/or party strategy.
Republicans and Republican-leaning independents overwhelmingly seem to think so. |
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#263 |
Proud Award Award recipient
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,987
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Interesting titbit from Nate Silver about the polling of Registered Voters versus Likely Voters
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The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan |
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#264 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,389
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"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig |
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#265 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 22,530
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#266 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,389
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I saw the Fox timelapse and a thought hit me that I was watching America under four (or more!) more years under Trump. Which was probably LP's intent.
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"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig |
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#267 |
Neoclinus blanchardi
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,501
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Odd campaign sign.
Reminds me of the Noli Food Truck sign which had the letters N and O in squares above the letters L and I in squares. I had to think about that one for a while. I eventually I came up with the word, Cannoli, because the letters look like they're in a can. In this case you have the words, Person, Woman, and Man, which logically flow around a common theme of gender. Now we have a puzzle. Obviously the words, Camera and TV, must logically have a theme as well, and we must choose the next word. I think I'll go with Radio. Maybe now I can fall asleep. |
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Everything I learned about epidemiology forecasting came from a book titled, "Corona: The Brave Little Virus That Bent The Big Bad Curve." |
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#268 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 5,229
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Why is it odd?
You do know where that list comes from I assume? |
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#269 |
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,279
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The "parasites" ad against Graham isn't good. For one thing, a lot of what it shows aren't parasites; they're decomposers. But also, for a lot of its running time, it isn't clear which person it's calling a parasite. It's making almost equal cases for both.
Still, though, at least they're giving us examples of what it would look like if the Republicans had any real opposition from people who act like they want to actually defeat them. Until the Lincoln Project came along, most Americans had forgotten how to even imagine such a thing, after so many years of watching the only other party around define itself as the party of not even trying. |
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#270 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,389
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Did you somehow miss Trump's interview with Wallace? The Lincoln Project has an abbreviated version. For the full experience, search "Trump wallace interview" on YouTube
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"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig |
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#271 | |||
Master Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,790
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Personally I prefer this take :
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#272 |
Neoclinus blanchardi
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,501
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It’s not like all the others. I’ve seen one for Bloomberg, two for Biden, and one for Bernie among the signs for local candidates in people yards. Come to think of it, I have not seen any advertising from the major campaigns on television nor have I heard anything on the radio, no billboard ads either. Just a smattering of bumperstickers. If you want campaign ads, you’ve got to use your imagination. I guess I’ll build that phased array I’ve been planning and try to get WATE in Knoxville. No, I didn’t. I type it into google and the next word was Hat. I didn’t expect that. Sounds a little like someone going on a fishing vacation. I just read the wikipedia article Montreal Cognitive Assessment test. Oh, I hate those tests. Around here the doctors ask those questions of old folks just a few years before they become interesting. Hm. I ought make my list of interesting things Trump will do in his second term. Yes. Around here if you want to see Fox News you drive over to the restaurants on the highway, or get a satellite dish. |
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Everything I learned about epidemiology forecasting came from a book titled, "Corona: The Brave Little Virus That Bent The Big Bad Curve." |
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#273 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,389
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Interestingly, Biden keeps climbing over at FiveThirtyEight's forecast.
Used to be that Trump had a whole row, six possible outcomes (of the 22 displayed on the screen) where he would win the election, now it's just five out of six. On a mobile screen, I believe there's far fewer maps, but I noticed a change there, too. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...tion-forecast/ |
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"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig |
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#274 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,612
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__________________
So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do? |
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#275 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,389
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He has an about 36% chance of winning Florida, still according to FiveThirtyEight.
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__________________
"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig |
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#276 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,227
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I'm thrilled. The Democrats are sending me mail, even though I'm a registered Republican. Both are funded by the state parties, and target a senatorial race, but down-ticket races matter a lot to the presidential race so I think it's OK to post that here.
I also get to hang up on Trump multiple times each day, which I do to avoid hearing his voice on the answering machine. Mom's gotten mail too, this one re: the presidential race. It's about registering to vote online, though I'm not sure she's ever been purged. She has dementia, but even so I don't think she'd vote for Trump. Joe Biden was once slightly rude to my father, but I don't think she remembers. The issue on the Democratic mail was health care. I don't think it's lost on previous Trump voters that Dems want people to have health insurance and Republican's don't. It's an issue where Dems poll well, and Trump is perceived as weak. Is it normal to have been exposed to so little advertising? I haven't been watching much TV, but direct mailings seems to be lax. And also: Please tell me Dems are supporting voter registration drives and offering rides to polling places - and telling people where their polling place IS (if that's known yet). Such simple info can really help turnout. I expect Barack and Michelle to be personally knocking on doors and holding rallies! Even virtual ones. Offering free masks saying, VOTE! Postcards sent to every household. I want all the gimmicks they can think of! Is this happening? We're approaching the deadline to register; people need to hear that date and maybe a countdown. A drive to PROTECT YOUR HEALTH - VOTE EARLY!! |
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#277 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,227
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Also:
I think someone is right that Trump may be using campaign funds to bribe places like Bahrain and the Gulf States to declare peace with Israel. Though the fundies want Armageddon; peace might not be high on their list. Is it true Trump's campaign is in financial straits? I hesitate to believe it because I want to believe it so much. I would not doubt personal kickbacks to come up with dirt agains Dems, true or false. If there's a way to pare 40 percent support down to 39, it's worth trying, IMO. Shoot, if their own seats weren't imperiled in the process, I'm not sure a few more GOP senators would be coming out against Trump. It might actually help their campaigns. |
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#278 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,607
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One of the links that Youtube offers after that is a speech by Gen. Mattis. Too bad he can't be President. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_sG7N7pJ6g |
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#279 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,227
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I think Biden has charisma. Almost all politicians do, to some extent. He was cuter back in the day, but then, weren't we all? He has empathy, which may turn out to be the new charisma.
Something I just read in Politico caught my eye: The writer thinks Biden needs to admit he still struggles with stuttering. I would not have put that high on the list but it was a fairly cogent argument. I Observed Joe Biden at Close Range for 20 Years. Here’s How He Wins—and Loses It's dated, and I don't usually pay much attention to opinions on Politico, just putting it out there since I alluded to it. Among other things he urges Biden to select Mitt Romney as secretary of state. |
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#280 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,607
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One of the basic strategies to deal with stuttering is to pause before speaking and think through what you're going to say. But that can look like ignorance or confusion. Biden doesn't seem to have any trouble having conversations with people face-to-face. That's a different environment from standing at a podium giving a speech.
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