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Tags Kyle Rittenhouse , murder cases

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Old 3rd February 2021, 03:54 PM   #521
SuburbanTurkey
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Quote:
Prosecutors request arrest warrant for Kyle Rittenhouse after he allegedly violates bond
The teen, charged with killing two people during protests in Kenosha last year, failed to update his address with the court, prosecutors say.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...lates-n1256667
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Old 4th February 2021, 05:23 AM   #522
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Update:

Rittenhouse's lawyers knowingly wrote the incorrect address because they claim a police captain told him to do so.

I'm not a legal expert, do judges like it when lawyers and cops conspire to lie on official documents?

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...ed-bond-money/
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Old 4th February 2021, 06:29 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Update:

Rittenhouse's lawyers knowingly wrote the incorrect address because they claim a police captain told him to do so.

I'm not a legal expert, do judges like it when lawyers and cops conspire to lie on official documents?

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...ed-bond-money/
Generally no. This is a weird spot because the legal system effectively doxxes accused people and this shouldn't be, especially in infamous cases. It invites some serious harassment and those who can't afford a "safe house" are on their own dealing with any manner of random abuse.

Lying is mildly thick because the definition of residence can be vague. If I live at 1 Main Street and instead am temporarily hiding out in my sister's basement because of death threats I'm not changing my driver's license or anything. I could see a cop deciding that hiding out not being a change of residence and telling the lawyer this.

Really, they should allow this to be under seal, but it looks like the defense lawyer didn't even motion for this after the state refused to agree to it, and this might make a judge salty.
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Old 4th February 2021, 08:27 AM   #524
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Generally no. This is a weird spot because the legal system effectively doxxes accused people and this shouldn't be, especially in infamous cases. It invites some serious harassment and those who can't afford a "safe house" are on their own dealing with any manner of random abuse.

Lying is mildly thick because the definition of residence can be vague. If I live at 1 Main Street and instead am temporarily hiding out in my sister's basement because of death threats I'm not changing my driver's license or anything. I could see a cop deciding that hiding out not being a change of residence and telling the lawyer this.

Really, they should allow this to be under seal, but it looks like the defense lawyer didn't even motion for this after the state refused to agree to it, and this might make a judge salty.
I'm of both minds on this one. On the one hand, yes, the legal system does give out addresses in this situation. It can get dangerous for the charged individual when the information is public. The defense was and is still willing to give the address of Kyle's location to the prosecution, and they have given it to the judge, but the prosecution hasn't agreed to keep it quiet. Keeping it sealed seems reasonable enough.

That being said, he's an individual that's being tried for multiple murders. The people in any neighborhood where he resides should have the right to know that, and make their own decisions based on that as well. He's seemed to have no fear or issues going out in public, getting drunk, and hanging out with known white supremacists.

All things said and done, if it's that dangerous that he's out then perhaps it might be best if he does go back to jail.
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Last edited by plague311; 4th February 2021 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 4th February 2021, 09:14 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'm of both minds on this one. On the one hand, yes, the legal system does give out addresses in this situation. It can get dangerous for the charged individual when the information is public. The defense was and is still willing to give the address of Kyle's location to the prosecution, and they have given it to the judge, but the prosecution hasn't agreed to keep it quiet. Keeping it sealed seems reasonable enough.

That being said, he's an individual that's being tried for multiple murders. The people in any neighborhood where he resides should have the right to know that, and make their own decisions based on that as well. He's seemed to have no fear or issues going out in public, getting drunk, and hanging out with known white supremacists.

All things said and done, if it's that dangerous that he's out then perhaps it might be best if he does go back to jail.
I'm surprised that house arrest wasn't a condition of pre-trial release.
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:26 AM   #526
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Perhaps it's best he's allowed to stay in hiding. Look what happened the last time he feared for his life.

Personally I'm hoping he's planning to take a hike, eluding capture just long enough to trigger bail forfeiture. It would serve right those Idiots who put up his bail.
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:27 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I'm surprised that house arrest wasn't a condition of pre-trial release.
Absolutely. That's very true. Better yet, why it's not being offered now either. Though, it would probably butt heads with the fact he doesn't want his location public. I would assume it would be almost impossible to keep it quiet if that were to happen. Part of me is surprised that they didn't try to get him his weapons back via the claim that he needs them to defend himself.

Lots of facets here.
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Old 4th February 2021, 11:29 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by TJM View Post
Perhaps it's best he's allowed to stay in hiding. Look what happened the last time he feared for his life.

Personally I'm hoping he's planning to take a hike, eluding capture just long enough to trigger bail forfeiture. It would serve right those Idiots who put up his bail.
That's what I was hoping for.
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Old 5th February 2021, 10:36 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Generally no. This is a weird spot because the legal system effectively doxxes accused people and this shouldn't be, especially in infamous cases. It invites some serious harassment and those who can't afford a "safe house" are on their own dealing with any manner of random abuse.

Lying is mildly thick because the definition of residence can be vague. If I live at 1 Main Street and instead am temporarily hiding out in my sister's basement because of death threats I'm not changing my driver's license or anything. I could see a cop deciding that hiding out not being a change of residence and telling the lawyer this.

Really, they should allow this to be under seal, but it looks like the defense lawyer didn't even motion for this after the state refused to agree to it, and this might make a judge salty.
These things are always confusing in other jurisdictions, but I thought one issue was he was a minor and was in possesion of a fire arm and did not have a second ammendment right to bear arms as a minor? In many jurisdictions (including the UK) as a minor accused (but not convicted) of a crime there would be a presumption of anonymity. Certainly personal details such as residence would automatically be confidential.
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Old 5th February 2021, 11:47 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
These things are always confusing in other jurisdictions, but I thought one issue was he was a minor and was in possesion of a fire arm and did not have a second ammendment right to bear arms as a minor? In many jurisdictions (including the UK) as a minor accused (but not convicted) of a crime there would be a presumption of anonymity. Certainly personal details such as residence would automatically be confidential.
In most US States, yes minors are given anonymity. I don't know if Rittenhouse's name is public because Michigan is an exception or some unusual factors.
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Old 5th February 2021, 12:00 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
In most US States, yes minors are given anonymity. I don't know if Rittenhouse's name is public because Michigan is an exception or some unusual factors.
Is he still a minor? Doesn't that make his trip to the bar to get his drink on even worse?
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Old 5th February 2021, 12:15 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Is he still a minor? Doesn't that make his trip to the bar to get his drink on even worse?
His name was given out pretty much immediately after the shooting... drinking age is 21 everywhere in the US. So, he and whoever served him should be in trouble.

Also... total tangent and a bizzare one. In at least some countries you are treated as a juvenile for offences committed when under 18 (or age of majority) in perpetuity. Germany is currently prosecuting a woman in juvenile court, for being a secretary in a WW2 concentration camp when she was only 17, now over 90.

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Old 5th February 2021, 12:24 PM   #533
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Rittenhouse is being tried as an adult, which is not unusual for people close to age 18 that commit very serious offenses, such as multiple murder.
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Old 5th February 2021, 12:30 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
His name was given out pretty much immediately after the shooting... drinking age is 21 everywhere in the US.
Not in Wisconsin.

"In Wisconsin, state law allows people under 21 to drink booze at a bar if they are accompanied by a parent."

https://www.ajc.com/news/kyle-ritten...IKQHROSIE5G3Q/
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Old 5th February 2021, 12:32 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not in Wisconsin.

"In Wisconsin, state law allows people under 21 to drink booze at a bar if they are accompanied by a parent."

https://www.ajc.com/news/kyle-ritten...IKQHROSIE5G3Q/
Can legally drink from 5 years old in the UK

https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/facts/a...y%20an%20adult.
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Old 5th February 2021, 12:39 PM   #536
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My understanding is that you must be 21 to buy alcohol in the US,and often to be served. In my beloved NJ, underagers can drink at home at least with parental consent.
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Old 5th February 2021, 01:36 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My understanding is that you must be 21 to buy alcohol in the US,and often to be served. In my beloved NJ, underagers can drink at home at least with parental consent.
Yeah the home drinking is same here. But you have to be 21 to even go into a bar.... unless they also serve food or something. We are a weird country when it comes to alcohol.
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Old 5th February 2021, 01:45 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
In most US States, yes minors are given anonymity. I don't know if Rittenhouse's name is public because Michigan is an exception or some unusual factors.
I think you might have misspoke. Rittenhouse lived in Illinois and went to Wisconsin, which is where he committed the murders.

As far as the drinking goes, the law in Wisconsin is you have be 21 to drink or go into a bar unless you are going into a bar with someone who is a family member and over 21. It's extremely odd, I'd never heard of it before and I'm only a state away.

ETA: WRT to the anonymity, the media outed him long before anyone else even could due to videos of him being all over the internet. That might have something to do with why they didn't bother. Had he been an underage victim I think the story would have been much different.
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Old 5th February 2021, 02:10 PM   #539
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Originally Posted by TJM View Post
Personally I'm hoping he's planning to take a hike, eluding capture just long enough to trigger bail forfeiture. It would serve right those Idiots who put up his bail.
That would be (in part) Trump bootlicker Mike "My Pillow Guy" Liddell and alt-right loving actor Ricky Schroder.

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Old 5th February 2021, 05:23 PM   #540
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
That would be (in part) Trump bootlicker Mike "My Pillow Guy" Liddell and alt-right loving actor Ricky Schroder.
Yep.

The beautiful thing about pillow boy is even if his bail is returned, it'll probably go straight into Dominion's pocket and / or Smartmatic's once they get around to suing him.
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Old 6th February 2021, 08:33 PM   #541
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NOTE: He has hired another Los Angeles attorney, Robert Barnes, after Pierce was dismissed.

A bail re-hearing is set for Thursday. The public-at-large is in no danger from his being out on $2-million bond (or even adding another $200,000, it'll be covered, and he will remain free during the next few years as the trial commences, eventually).

These court 'appearances' are now all done via Zoom, so he could be in Kalamazoo, why does it even matter where he currently is?
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Old 6th February 2021, 08:48 PM   #542
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
NOTE: He has hired another Los Angeles attorney, Robert Barnes, after Pierce was dismissed.

A bail re-hearing is set for Thursday. The public-at-large is in no danger from his being out on $2-million bond (or even adding another $200,000, it'll be covered, and he will remain free during the next few years as the trial commences, eventually).

These court 'appearances' are now all done via Zoom, so he could be in Kalamazoo, why does it even matter where he currently is?
Maybe prosecutors want to know exactly where he is just in case he decides to don a mask and cape to fight crime in another municipality? Or shoot people in the back that get in his face for running around in a cape?
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Old 6th February 2021, 10:46 PM   #543
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Can legally drink from 5 years old in the UK

https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/facts/a...y%20an%20adult.
Oh I know it is off topic, but this is magnificent. Making the UK Great Again......
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Old 7th February 2021, 01:42 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Maybe prosecutors want to know exactly where he is just in case he decides to don a mask and cape to fight crime in another municipality? Or shoot people in the back that get in his face for running around in a cape?
The public-at-large is in no danger from his being out on bail.
Due to numerous death threats against Kyle, arrangements were made for the Rittenhouse family to reside at a 'Safe House' in an unidentified location once bail was posted. Prosecutors were asked to allow the location information to remain under 'seal' and be only made available to court officers & law enforcement on a "need-to-know" basis, which the DA refused to go along with.
Yes, prosecutors know where he is; this man is not "missing" at all. The State wants to make that sensitive information openly available. Not sure why.
Rittenhouse is due back "in court" (not in person, AFAIK) on March 10, with jury selection set to begin March 29.
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Old 7th February 2021, 01:50 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The public-at-large is in no danger from his being out on bail.
Due to numerous death threats against Kyle, arrangements were made for the Rittenhouse family to reside at a 'Safe House' in an unidentified location once bail was posted. Prosecutors were asked to allow the location information to remain under 'seal' and be only made available to court officers & law enforcement on a "need-to-know" basis, which the DA refused to go along with.
Yes, prosecutors know where he is; this man is not "missing" at all. The State wants to make that sensitive information openly available. Not sure why.
Rittenhouse is due back "in court" (not in person, AFAIK) on March 10, with jury selection set to begin March 29.
That's a creative way to say they were violating the conditions of his bail. "Arrangements" may have been made, but not with the appropriate authorities.

Bail is as much about ensuring criminal defendants show up to court as it is about protecting the community. Following pre-trial release conditions and not lying to the court are an important element in being trusted to not skip town.

This may shock you, but criminal defendants are not allowed to unilaterally change the conditions of their pre-trial release. Kyle should consider himself lucky if the coming bond hearing only results in him having to pony up more cash and not getting remanded until trial.
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Old 7th February 2021, 01:58 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The public-at-large is in no danger from his being out on bail.
Due to numerous death threats against Kyle, arrangements were made for the Rittenhouse family to reside at a 'Safe House' in an unidentified location once bail was posted. Prosecutors were asked to allow the location information to remain under 'seal' and be only made available to court officers & law enforcement on a "need-to-know" basis, which the DA refused to go along with.
Yes, prosecutors know where he is; this man is not "missing" at all. The State wants to make that sensitive information openly available. Not sure why.
Rittenhouse is due back "in court" (not in person, AFAIK) on March 10, with jury selection set to begin March 29.
So strange that the "Do what cops tell you to do" and "Law and order" crowd seems to be supportive of going against orders from the court. Taking the law into his own hands is what got Kyle here in the first place.
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Old 7th February 2021, 02:06 PM   #547
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Can't wait till Captain Kyle decides that police are a threat to his personal well-being. Just can't imagine what his resolution might be.
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Old 7th February 2021, 02:54 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The public-at-large is in no danger from his being out on bail.
Due to numerous death threats against Kyle, arrangements were made for the Rittenhouse family to reside at a 'Safe House' in an unidentified location once bail was posted. Prosecutors were asked to allow the location information to remain under 'seal' and be only made available to court officers & law enforcement on a "need-to-know" basis, which the DA refused to go along with.
Yes, prosecutors know where he is; this man is not "missing" at all. The State wants to make that sensitive information openly available. Not sure why.
Rittenhouse is due back "in court" (not in person, AFAIK) on March 10, with jury selection set to begin March 29.
Death threats are a serious concern. I know from being on the receiving end of a few of them in my time. You'd think Kyle's defense team would be able to show compelling evidence of "numerous death threats".

Quote:
“[T]he defense has not demonstrated a specific, tangible and imminent threat to the defendant that would justify withholding his address from the public,” Binger wrote. “While the defense asserts that the defendant has received various threats, the only actual communication that has been submitted to the Court is an email.”

The email in question graphically predicts that Rittenhouse will be sexually assaulted if he is imprisoned. The prosecution said that there was no indication of an imminent threat.

“That email, sent to Attorney Mark Richards, discusses what might happen to the defendant in prison after he is convicted,” Binger goes on. “The email is from ‘mlucky99,’ whose real name is not known. There is no indication if this person is from Wisconsin or Wyoming or Western Samoa. The sender does not make any actual threat to the defendant but merely discusses what others might do to him in prison. This is hardly a specific, tangible and imminent threat.”
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...re-hes-living/
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Old 7th February 2021, 03:11 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by TJM View Post
Death threats are a serious concern. I know from being on the receiving end of a few of them in my time. You'd think Kyle's defense team would be able to show compelling evidence of "numerous death threats".



https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...re-hes-living/
Not sure I get the defense's angle here. Some unknown random emails that Kyle may be the subject of unwanted romantic advances in prison. Yeah, like anyone else. This warrants special treatment?
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Old 8th February 2021, 07:17 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The public-at-large is in no danger from his being out on bail.
All of your other statements aside, what are you basing this off of? Him being a danger to the public-at-large is what got him here in the first place. He's already shown that he's willing to take life and bond isn't a right. It's a privilege.
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Old 8th February 2021, 07:44 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
All of your other statements aside, what are you basing this off of? Him being a danger to the public-at-large is what got him here in the first place. He's already shown that he's willing to take life and bond isn't a right. It's a privilege.
It's a right in the US as per the 8th amendment.

Like all rights it is balanced against other legitimate government interests, which is why it can be denied in the worst cases.
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Old 8th February 2021, 09:33 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
It's a right in the US as per the 8th amendment.

Like all rights it is balanced against other legitimate government interests, which is why it can be denied in the worst cases.
I haven't seen anything say that there's an absolute right to bail, which was the point I was making. There is nothing in US law requiring Kyle to be freed from jail while awaiting trial, especially considering his charges.

I have no desire to get overly nitpicky about it. I feel my point pretty well stands on its own.
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Old 8th February 2021, 06:20 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
All of your other statements aside, what are you basing this off of? Him being a danger to the public-at-large is what got him here in the first place. He's already shown that he's willing to take life and bond isn't a right. It's a privilege.
Well, for one thing, the entire principle of bail bond is -- If he's not considered a danger to society, then pre-trial release is allowed (either with ROR or bail). Alternatively, if the defendant is indeed a threat, based on the court's evaluation of circumstances surrounding the case, then NO BOND is set, and a remand to jail is ordered by the Judge at the bail hearing...

In fact, some states have done away with the entire 'posting bail' thing.
Either you get let out or you go to jail, depending on the level of threat you pose to society, and flight risk.

The whole subject of Bail Reform is interesting. It touches upon social inequities, racial discrimination, financial abilities, and of course, the right of the public to be secure and safe.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-c...-york-n1111346

Kyle did not present a danger to the public in Kenosha on August 25, 2020, and he doesn't present one now. If the court thought he was, then no bail would have been set, not $20,000, not $2-million.

Last edited by webfusion; 8th February 2021 at 06:38 PM. Reason: answered specific question
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Old 9th February 2021, 05:33 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Well, for one thing, the entire principle of bail bond is -- If he's not considered a danger to society, then pre-trial release is allowed (either with ROR or bail). Alternatively, if the defendant is indeed a threat, based on the court's evaluation of circumstances surrounding the case, then NO BOND is set, and a remand to jail is ordered by the Judge at the bail hearing...

In fact, some states have done away with the entire 'posting bail' thing.
Either you get let out or you go to jail, depending on the level of threat you pose to society, and flight risk.

The whole subject of Bail Reform is interesting. It touches upon social inequities, racial discrimination, financial abilities, and of course, the right of the public to be secure and safe.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-c...-york-n1111346

Kyle did not present a danger to the public in Kenosha on August 25, 2020, and he doesn't present one now. If the court thought he was, then no bail would have been set, not $20,000, not $2-million.
Even in states that have done away with cash bail, intentionally lying to the court about your whereabouts and violating the terms of your pretrial release is something that is frowned upon. It very much puts into question whether a defendant can be trusted to show up to trial.

Rittenhouse has a new bond hearing Thursday, it remains to be seen what response the judge will have to such flagrant breach of the bond conditions.

Prosecutors are asking for an arrest warrant and another 200k in bail money.

https://www.wpr.org/rittenhouse-bail...g-set-thursday

I'm not seeing much reporting on this, but I'm wondering if there are going to be any consequences for any of Rittenhouse's lawyers if they are shown to have knowingly lied in these documents. Thursday could be more of a problem for them than it is for Rittenhouse.
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Old 9th February 2021, 08:05 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Kyle did not present a danger to the public in Kenosha on August 25, 2020, and he doesn't present one now. If the court thought he was, then no bail would have been set, not $20,000, not $2-million.
Yeah, the dead ******* bodies definitely support your statement.

The amount of bail reflects the danger to society and\or flight risk. You even state that a release on his own recognizance was an option, yet the judge didn't take it. He made bond multiple millions of dollars, why do you suppose that is? Do you think it's because he agrees with your assessment?

For the record, when you're replying to me, I don't need basic stuff explained to me. I'm a convicted felon that's been through everything from simple court to jury trials. I understand the ins and outs of the court system.
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Old 9th February 2021, 11:19 AM   #556
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The dead bodies (and the walking wounded) reflect a success on the part of Kyle Rittenhouse to protect his own life as he was being attacked violently with malice aforethought on the part of the perpetrators of those attacks.

That is the entire situation, in a nutshell.
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Old 9th February 2021, 11:25 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The dead bodies (and the walking wounded) reflect a success on the part of Kyle Rittenhouse to protect his own life as he was being attacked violently with malice aforethought on the part of the perpetrators of those attacks.

That is the entire situation, in a nutshell.
...after he travelled to a riot he had no business in with a loaded high-powered rifle, having malice aforethought.

Yeah, that is pretty much the entire situation.
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Old 9th February 2021, 11:29 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The dead bodies (and the walking wounded) reflect a success on the part of Kyle Rittenhouse to protect his own life as he was being attacked violently with malice aforethought on the part of the perpetrators of those attacks.

That is the entire situation, in a nutshell.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...after he travelled to a riot he had no business in with a loaded high-powered rifle, having malice aforethought.

Yeah, that is pretty much the entire situation.
I'm going to agree with Thermal here. Your summary is biased ******** that doesn't reflect reality, it only reflects the reality you want for Kyle.

He, in no particular order: Had no right to defend any businesses in Wisconsin. He had no right to have the gun he did. He had no right to be out after curfew, and on and on.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but let me tell you some **** I learned really fast during my first court case. You can't claim self-defense if you initiate an interaction. Got me? You can't push someone, then when they punch you, shoot them in the face. It doesn't work like that. Perhaps you should do some research into how the laws, specifically self-defense laws, work in the U.S.

Or don't, I have no ***** to give if you do either way, but you're wrong.
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Old 9th February 2021, 11:35 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The dead bodies (and the walking wounded) reflect a success on the part of Kyle Rittenhouse to protect his own life as he was being attacked violently with malice aforethought on the part of the perpetrators of those attacks.

That is the entire situation, in a nutshell.
Poppycock. He's a wannabe cop and murderer. Out of his depth, he should not have been there, and legally should not have have been armed at all.

Lock the murdering prick up and throw away the key, and don't start looking for it for 25 years.
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Old 9th February 2021, 11:49 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...after he travelled to a riot he had no business in with a loaded high-powered rifle, having malice aforethought.

Yeah, that is pretty much the entire situation.
His group in Kenosha that night prevented the OTHERS there (who REALLY had no business doing what they were doing) from violating the peace and security of the people of Kenosha.

Law Enforcement had abandoned that task.
The presence of armed civilians was beneficial to the "public defense" of Americans in Wisconsin.

That point is, of course, a debatable one, in the context of overall 2A Rights.
This trial may or may not go into that aspect.
However, he WAS there, and threatened nobody with the gun. At no point did he raise it, or aim it, with the intent to fire at any of the rioters.

Quite the opposite. When he realized that JoJo was intent on stealing his gun (with the assistance of an armed individual named 'Alex Blaine') the isolated Rittenhouse tried to remove himself from any close contact with Rosenbaum. In other words, the physical threat of severe bodily injury was being perpetrated against Kyle, not the other way around.

If my loaded high-powered rifle slung around my neck is snatched by a violent maniac, he's gonna get a bullet or two or three. Period.
Under ANY circumstances, no freak on the streets is taking away the weapon from my grip. Not gonna happen.

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