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Tags Breonna Taylor , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 24th September 2020, 05:32 PM   #201
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Perhaps it was an unofficial report by someone in the office of the postal inspector? It wouldn't be the first time that police have obtained confidential information and then mistakenly believed or reported it came through official channels.
Perhaps there is a reason why somebody does not want to confirm his part in the Breonna Taylor investigation given that two police officers who were not involved in the death were shot by rioting slime buckets?
Considering that people in this thread have justified innocent police officers being shot in the name of justice for Taylor - it seems like a good self preservation for everybody to deny any connection to the case. Breanna Taylor? Who's she?
Those are embarrassingly poor arguments and do not comport with either the facts or reality.

Quote:
Besides - that was also not the only reason for the warrant and no-one has made the case that the warrant would not have been issued without that information.
There’s actually a lot of questions about whether or not it was a valid warrant. That’s why the FBI is investigating it.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:33 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The information contained in the warrant is facing serious scrutiny, and the circumstances surrounding its issuance are currently under investigation by the FBI because of that.

So why do you keep citing it as if it were factual?
It is factually legal until it is proven otherwise. That is the way the law works.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:36 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Yes, there is a reason Walker is not being charged. It's because the person who recommended charges would be lynched by the same insane people who are rioting and have shot two innocent police officers because the correct legal decision has been made exonerating the two police officers of criminal charges in the death of Taylor.
Paying out 12 million was a hope to stop the rioting and civil unrest. It didn't work.
Ah yes, the perfectly unfalsifiable belief. Every piece of information - no matter how contradictory or nonsensical - fits conveniently into your predetermined narrative.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:39 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Those are embarrassingly poor arguments and do not comport with either the facts or reality.
The bar was set by you and others. I just decided to lower myself to that level and have some fun.



Quote:
There’s actually a lot of questions about whether or not it was a valid warrant. That’s why the FBI is investigating it.
Because they are questions no-one should be claiming the questions as fact or that the warrant was not valid until the investigation is complete. Right?
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:39 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
"If it is possible" is a high bar. Wouldn't that mean that police would be unable to use their guns in residential properties, even to defend themselves from somebody shooting them, and I would have thought many other situations besides.
It would mean that, yes. It does mean that in lots of police situations. If you don't have a clear shot it's often preferable to hold fire. Not always possible though.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:39 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
It is factually legal until it is proven otherwise. That is the way the law works.
Considering that “factually legal” isn’t actually a term used in the law, you clearly don’t have the faintest idea how the law works.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:40 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Ah yes, the perfectly unfalsifiable belief. Every piece of information - no matter how contradictory or nonsensical - fits conveniently into your predetermined narrative.
Pot...kettle.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:42 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
The bar was set by you and others. I just decided to lower myself to that level and have some fun.
Making cogent arguments and valid points can also be fun. You should give it a try sometime.

Quote:
Because they are questions no-one should be claiming the questions as fact or that the warrant was not valid until the investigation is complete. Right?
Questions can’t be facts. You’re just talking gibberish now.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:43 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Considering that “factually legal” isn’t actually a term used in the law, you clearly don’t have the faintest idea how the law works.
What on earth are you getting at? I am not claiming that the term is a legal term. It is a fact that the warrant was legal. It is a fact that it remains legal until proven otherwise and declared illegal by a judicial authority.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:44 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Pot...kettle.
What unfalsifiable belief have I expressed? Please quote the relevant posts.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:44 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Making cogent arguments and valid points can also be fun. You should give it a try sometime.



Questions can’t be facts. You’re just talking gibberish now.
You're twisting words for the sake of being argumentative.
I'll not participate further.
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"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:45 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
What on earth are you getting at? I am not claiming that the term is a legal term. It is a fact that the warrant was legal. It is a fact that it remains legal until proven otherwise and declared illegal by a judicial authority.
The warrant remains technically legal. That doesn’t automatically render factual the information in it. And at least one key piece of information in the warrant has already been disputed.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:46 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
You're twisting words for the sake of being argumentative.
I'll not participate further.
Concession noted.
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Old 24th September 2020, 06:45 PM   #214
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Just a few facts. Both sides of the discussion:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/t...gtype=Homepage
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Old 24th September 2020, 07:11 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Personally I would say yes, the police should not open fire if they don't know if it is possible an unintended target would get hit. We are talking about a residential property not a warzone.
How many times should the police allow themselves to be shot at before they return fire if they are unable to conduct surveillance to determine if people who are innocent of wrongdoing are in the line of fire? Because when you're being shot at it is not always easy to stick your head up and look around.
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Old 24th September 2020, 07:17 PM   #216
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Seems to me that the only reason for dark-of-night warrants with rams is to give cops overtime and hazzard pay.
If they wanted to search the place, they could have done it during the day.
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Old 24th September 2020, 08:47 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
How many times should the police allow themselves to be shot at before they return fire if they are unable to conduct surveillance to determine if people who are innocent of wrongdoing are in the line of fire? Because when you're being shot at it is not always easy to stick your head up and look around.
Do you really wanna make that case? That police don't have to know who or what they're shooting at? Especially in a crowded apartment complex? Does "retreat and regroup" have a place?

Last edited by Bob001; 24th September 2020 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 24th September 2020, 08:49 PM   #218
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An ex-U.S. Attorney says he would have charged all three cops with manslaughter.
Quote:
I’m a former prosecutor, and I would have charged all three officers with manslaughter. I think murder would be overcharging, because the officers did not have the intent to kill Taylor. Still, if three gang members burst into an apartment, were met with gunfire by somebody in the home, and in response shot up the apartment complex and killed an innocent person, they would almost certainly be charged with homicide.

It’s no less of a crime when three cops do the same thing. Self-defense is an issue, but one that a jury should decide. We know the officers continued to fire long after any threat ceased. A neighbor called 911 to report gunfire, and 68 seconds into the call, you can still hear the shots. Further, under Kentucky law, you can’t claim self-defense if your actions placed innocent people in danger, as the police who killed Taylor obviously did.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...etically-weak/
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Old 24th September 2020, 08:55 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm not arguing they were wrong to return fire, but why put themselves in that situation to begin with? Bunch of guys in plainclothes take a battering ram to an apartment door in the dead of night?
I heard 'plainclothes' too and thought they had no markings, but the video of the triage of the shot officer clearly shows they are all wearing POLICE vests with big white lettering. They seem to all be dressed the same.
Is that really what is meant by plainclothes?
..just not being in a full uniform?

Not that any of it matters if it is all dark.

Last edited by Sherkeu; 24th September 2020 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 24th September 2020, 09:00 PM   #220
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So do we have this right? One indictment for a cop that shot at Breonna, but the indictment was for the shots that actually missed her?
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Old 24th September 2020, 09:02 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The warrant remains technically legal. That doesn’t automatically render factual the information in it. And at least one key piece of information in the warrant has already been disputed.
Just to reiterate a point I made earlier:
Jefferson Circuit Judge Mary Shaw signed all five[warrants] within 12 minutes

The fact this warrant was approved and rubber stamped without any due dilegence in the first place should give us all pause. And like Minoosh has been saying, drug dealing at this level isn't worthy of this type of response.
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Old 24th September 2020, 09:07 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So do we have this right? One indictment for a cop that shot at Breonna, but the indictment was for the shots that actually missed her?
nope.

No indictment for the cops who shot Taylor, some indictment for the cop who just shot blindly at the windows in her place, barely missing a family in the next apartment.
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Old 24th September 2020, 09:10 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
nope.

No indictment for the cops who shot Taylor, some indictment for the cop who just shot blindly at the windows in her place, barely missing a family in the next apartment.
Minor rewording then: the indictment was for the shots fired by police that missed Breonna.

Oh that's much better.
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Old 24th September 2020, 09:19 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Minor rewording then: the indictment was for the shots fired by police that missed Breonna.

Oh that's much better.
Not really fair IMO: The indictment was for an officer who fired off 10 shots absolutely blind from outside the apartment and into a different apartment. The shots that hit Breonna, though, were fired by police returning fire from Walker.

They're given a pass for self-defense; the other shooter had no such claim.
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Old 24th September 2020, 09:34 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Not really fair IMO: The indictment was for an officer who fired off 10 shots absolutely blind from outside the apartment and into a different apartment. The shots that hit Breonna, though, were fired by police returning fire from Walker.

They're given a pass for self-defense; the other shooter had no such claim.
Secondary minor rewording then: the indictment was for the one cop who was too incompetent to hit Breonna.
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Old 24th September 2020, 10:09 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Just to reiterate a point I made earlier:
Jefferson Circuit Judge Mary Shaw signed all five[warrants] within 12 minutes

The fact this warrant was approved and rubber stamped without any due dilegence in the first place should give us all pause. And like Minoosh has been saying, drug dealing at this level isn't worthy of this type of response.
I'd be okay if SWAT teams were reserved for actual emergencies - say, armed gunmen take hostages or some such. This crap where they shoot people in the head or blow holes into toddlers' chests, or even shoot their dogs for that matter, because of some quantity of drugs small enough to be easily flushed down the toilet without leaving a trace?

**** that, it's not worth a single life.
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Old 24th September 2020, 10:25 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
People who are saying the system failed here are essentially saying that if police officers executing a legal warrant to investigate a drug dealing location for evidence, are fired upon as they enter, and then they return fire - that those officers need to somehow face punishment for that? That is insane.

How can you tell an officer that? That they can be asked to go execute a search warrant, and if they get shot at, they can't defend themselves? Or they only can defend themselves if they can guarantee 100% that an unintended target is not hit, even if that target is standing right next to the shooter?

People are talking about this case as though the officers charged in, found Bryanna quaking in fear under her comforter, and emptied mags into her later saying "I saw a figure under the sheets, how do I know she doesn't have a gun under there? Better safe than sorry!"
Actually, under your imaginary scenario where Breowna was hiding under a comforter, quaking in fear, and the officers kicked in the door and ordered her to remove the comforter and raise both hands in the air so the officers could be assured that she was unarmed and that there were no weapons within reaching distance and she did not immediately comply, the officers would have been negligent to not empty their magazine into her, reload, and continue shooting if she was still twitching.

I usually agree with you, Mr. Tank, but sometimes your empathy, open-mindedness, compassion, and concern for the underdog clouds your thinking.

Considering the facts of what actually happened, as soon as Briiowynnna's booty call pointed a gun at a police officer and pulled the trigger, nobody in the apartment had any reasonable expectation of leaving that apartment alive. The tragedy here, and the reason that Louisville should be burned to the ground is that Kenneth Walker is not dead.
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Old 24th September 2020, 10:31 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'd be okay if SWAT teams were reserved for actual emergencies - say, armed gunmen take hostages or some such. This crap where they shoot people in the head or blow holes into toddlers' chests, or even shoot their dogs for that matter, because of some quantity of drugs small enough to be easily flushed down the toilet without leaving a trace?

**** that, it's not worth a single life.
Agreed 100%.
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Old 25th September 2020, 12:04 AM   #229
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I think this is a situation where command responsibility should apply; the sheriff or equivalent and the department should be prosecuted for (corporate) negligent homicide. There should have been effective systems in place to have prevented this. In most countries an armed raid of this sort would have required approval at a senior level. A risk analysis would have been required and justification as to why no alternative is possible. I am sympathetic that once underway the cops at the front line were in a no win situation, I do not think they should be prosecuted.

The other issue is the judicial. Warrants are required to ensure that rights of individuals are protected against the actions of the state. Judges should have sufficient time to assess these rather than rubber stamp them, they are there to defend the constitution. They should review the risk analysis. The judicial authorities should ensure that appropriate time is allocated rather than the process being fitted into breaks.
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Old 25th September 2020, 01:31 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Once again, you are correct. I shouldn’t be so critical.

When someone asks a semi-rhetorical question about whether or not police treat rich white people the same way they treat poor black people, “No, because rich people can move” is a genius response that demonstrates amazing clarity of thought and a firm grasp of the issue being discussed.
I think he's saying that rich people don't live in areas with a lot of crime, so we should expect less police activity near rich people, not because they're rich, but because there is less crime where they live.

Seems reasonable.
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Old 25th September 2020, 01:33 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
She wasn't asleeping, she was standing in the hallway behind he boyfriend who shot the cop. It clearly wasn't murder. Of course a jury shouldn't convict them.
Her boyfriend was protecting himself from people breaking in to his house. They shouldn't have been there in the first place.
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Old 25th September 2020, 01:55 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think he's saying that rich people don't live in areas with a lot of crime, so we should expect less police activity near rich people, not because they're rich, but because there is less crime where they live.

Seems reasonable.
No, it does not.

The amount of crime cops discover is proportional to the number of cops in an area, not the number of crimes committed.
The Rich break the law all the time, but because cops only show up when the Rich want them to, they don't get arrested and charged.
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Old 25th September 2020, 02:14 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
No, it does not.

The amount of crime cops discover is proportional to the number of cops in an area, not the number of crimes committed.
The Rich break the law all the time, but because cops only show up when the Rich want them to, they don't get arrested and charged.
Mrs Don mentioned a Facebook post to this effect this morning.

A white guy who grew up in a nice suburb saying that if he and his buddies were pulled by the police all the time when they were young then the police would have found drugs and the kids would have ended up in jail - instead they got to go to college.
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Old 25th September 2020, 02:18 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
No, it does not.

The amount of crime cops discover is proportional to the number of cops in an area, not the number of crimes committed.
The Rich break the law all the time, but because cops only show up when the Rich want them to, they don't get arrested and charged.
Wikipedia disagrees:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statis...onomic_factors
Quote:
Socioeconomic status (usually measured using the three variables income (or wealth), occupational level, and years of education) correlates negatively with criminality, except for self-reported illegal drug use. Higher parental socioeconomic status probably has an inverse relationship with crime. Unstable employment and high frequency of unemployment correlate positively with criminality.
Do you have some support for your claim?
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Old 25th September 2020, 02:20 AM   #235
Matthew Best
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Don't the words "except for self-reported illegal drug use" mean that what that's actually saying is - if you ignore the crimes the rich commit, they don't commit many crimes.
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Old 25th September 2020, 02:21 AM   #236
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Mrs Don mentioned a Facebook post to this effect this morning.

A white guy who grew up in a nice suburb saying that if he and his buddies were pulled by the police all the time when they were young then the police would have found drugs and the kids would have ended up in jail - instead they got to go to college.
Sure, I think that's an important factor. But there are some crimes that aren't just going undiscovered, murder for instance. It's still true that those crimes happen more often in underprivileged neighborhoods.

There are socioeconomic drivers for that I think we should be doing something about.
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Old 25th September 2020, 02:23 AM   #237
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Don't the words "except for self-reported illegal drug use" mean that what that's actually saying is - if you ignore the crimes the rich commit, they don't commit many crimes.
No, it means that there is a category in which it's not true, but for all other categories it is. Seems to me meaningful to point out that caveat, but it also doesn't change the fact as it relates to the total.

But just to be clear, we're actually arguing about whether or not crime is more common in lower income areas?
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Old 25th September 2020, 03:10 AM   #238
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I'm not arguing. I can't speak for you.
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Old 25th September 2020, 03:15 AM   #239
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
No, it means that there is a category in which it's not true, but for all other categories it is. Seems to me meaningful to point out that caveat, but it also doesn't change the fact as it relates to the total.

But just to be clear, we're actually arguing about whether or not crime is more common in lower income areas?
Drug use comes with a host of other crimes.
And if you can afford a decent lawyer, the chance that you are actually getting indicted or convicted drop dramatically - a person with less means would have to plea out.


And if we go down this road, there are plenty of laws that in effect criminalize poverty.

So yes, I would argue that the main reason we see more crime in poor areas is because that is where cops are looking; if they were told to fill their quota of crime detecting in rich areas, they could.
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Old 25th September 2020, 03:42 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Drug use comes with a host of other crimes.
Crimes which would actually show up in the statistics.

Quote:
And if you can afford a decent lawyer, the chance that you are actually getting indicted or convicted drop dramatically - a person with less means would have to plea out.
Sure, I can see how that might be a factor.


Quote:
And if we go down this road, there are plenty of laws that in effect criminalize poverty.
If so, then while those laws should be changed, in the meantime you'd expect poverty to be associated with criminality (and not just biased enforcement).

So yes, I would argue that the main reason we see more crime in poor areas is because that is where cops are looking; if they were told to fill their quota of crime detecting in rich areas, they could.[/quote]

That's an interesting hypothesis. I think it probably explains some of the difference. But it's not the only factor.
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