Trump's accomplishments

Safe-Keeper · 30th December 2020, 05:17 PM

So now that both the year and the Orange Reign are (finally) almost over, I thought it'd be an idea to list his achievements. We know they are overshadowed by all the bad he's done, but for fairness' sake, let's make an honest effort to list the things he's done that we actually appreciate. I'll start.

Hmmm.
Will need some help with this one. Let's google "Trump's achievements". Don't know what I expected, but This Atlantic article has a couple small ones I can get behind.

-regulations on vaping. Good, I... guess? Don't have anything against flavoured vaping cartridges, but... I guess if it keeps teens from starting to vape, and then progress to cigarettes, it'll save lives, so... nah, I admit I don't really have a strong opinion on this. I'll file it under "undecided".

-kicking out China from 5G networks. Not a subject I know much about, and quite possibly done out of anti-Chinese bigotry as much as any rational incentive, but fair enough, I suppose.

-re-establishing due process on campuses.

-the First Step program.

Moving on, here are the things I can think of off the top of my head:

Something about parental leave. Don't remember the details.

I'd say something about the economy, but the damage he's done here in this regard has probably outdone the good. Actually, strike probably.

I don't know if this counts as I doubt it was genuine, but he catered to the downtrodden working class that felt "the elite" didn't care about them, might just have energized that portion of the population and forced future candidates to care more about income inequality and social mobility. As another poster said, Trump's election was a brick through the window, a cry of "can you hear us now?!" that should not be ignored.

Negotiated "peace treaties" between countries in the Middle East that weren't at war to begin with. Of course, like with the economy, I fully believe he's done more to hurt Middle Eastern and world peace than to further it, so don't know if this counts.

I'd list progress against ISIS, but I'm not feeling it. Again, whatever achievements he made on the counter-terrorism/diplomatic/no more wars front are outweighed by the damage done.

I refuse to list "started no new wars". It feels like talking about why you like your spouse and saying "he doesn't hit me". Nearly all world leaders don't start wars. That's not a big achievement unless, of course, a Cuban missile crisis-style scenario arises where avoiding a war is both desirable and difficult. Also, there's something hypocritical about Trump supporters cheering victories against ISIS and at the same time bragging that Trump was a pacifist who didn't get the US entangled in conflicts.

I suppose as an honourable mention I can add that he mobilized and united the forces of good in the USA to a degree I haven't seen in a long time. His presidency shone a spotlight on police violence, corruption, racism, and how much bigotry and authoritarianism there is in the US population. It rallied people against fake news and conspiracy theories and the postfact society in general.

And... I really can't think of anything else, to be honest

.

Ziggurat · 30th December 2020, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Negotiated "peace treaties" between countries in the Middle East that weren't at war to begin with.

They aren’t peace treaties. They are normalization treaties, between countries which did not have normalized relations. And yes, it’s a big deal, and a step forward.

Quote:

Of course, like with the economy, I fully believe he's done more to hurt Middle Eastern and world peace than to further it, so don't know if this counts.

You believe it despite evidence to the contrary. Because reasons.

ahhell · 30th December 2020, 05:52 PM

No new wars is a big accomplishment for a US president. He's the first in 40 years.
If you like his judges, there's that. More Mitch's doing but its something that happened while he was president.
The criminal justice reform bill is largely a positive. There's decent argument for why it wouldn't have happened under a normal president. Normal Rep would do it for obvious reasons and a normal Dem wouldn't have avoid being seen as "soft on Crime", maybe. Counter factual and all.

As far as the Middle East, IDK, he tried something different regarding Arab Israeli relations and something good happened. I suspect is more the result of Iran's rise scaring the Arabs.

The invasion of Iraq was such a screw up, I'm not sure the US can do anything truly positive at this point. Even pulling out is going to have a bad outcome.

He is largely terrible but broken clocks....

BobTheCoward · 30th December 2020, 05:57 PM

Some people think the requirement that new buildings use neoclassical architecture. I despise that though.

Mumbles · 30th December 2020, 06:02 PM

the First Step Act, itself a watered-down version of Obama-era reforms that were blocked by republican senators led by Tom Cotton - was rather mixed, actually, as his own DoJ tried to sabotage it - in addition to using private prisons, concentration camps for refugees, and resuming criminal prosecutions for weed, giving military surplus to local PDs, kneecapping consent decrees, refusing to investigate violent white nationalist groups., an using mercenaries to attack nonviolent protestors in multiple cities. In other words, it's going to take a while to fix all of the things he broke as far as criminal justice reform goes.

CapelDodger · 30th December 2020, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by ahhell

As far as the Middle East, IDK, he tried something different regarding Arab Israeli relations and something good happened.

Israeli relations with Palestinian Arabs did not improve at all - quite the opposite. Their relations with Gulf Arabs have improved, and shared interests recognised in a new Triple Alliance between the US, the Saud dynasty and their hangers-on, and Likudian Israel.

Quote:

I suspect is more the result of Iran's rise scaring the Arabs

There's been no rise in Iran for a while, but a lot of Shia Arabs are grateful for their support - and that's where the numbers are.

Quote:

The invasion of Iraq was such a screw up, I'm not sure the US can do anything truly positive at this point. Even pulling out is going to have a bad outcome.

At least it will be their outcome. At last the post-Ottoman dispensation could work itself out locally, and it would recognise that the Middle East really has no strategic importance any more.

The Great Zaganza · 30th December 2020, 07:24 PM

Trump's accomplishments are less about what he got done, and more about what he failed to prevent.

Norman Alexander · 30th December 2020, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

They aren’t peace treaties. They are normalization treaties, between [Middle Eastern] countries which did not have normalized relations. And yes, it’s a big deal, and a step forward.

My question would be: How much is the Trump administration responsible for this in a positive sense?

At least one of those countries (Bahrain??) did a deal so they could get cheap access to wizzo new US war technologies...to attack Iran with at some later date, presumably. Not exactly a "peace" initiative, more like taking advantage of a useful idiot.

Also, how much of this would have been achieved without the USA present at all? I am going to imagine that Jared, the supposed broker in all this, has not one frigging clue what happened without him there, or what the real deals were. Clueless is his watchword.

Tero · 30th December 2020, 07:30 PM

personally, I learned so much about the constitution in 4 years, including its failures.

Today I learned how useless how the electoral vote count law is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_Count_Act

Section 7 (now 3 U.S.C. § 16) states that the joint session cannot be dissolved "until the count of electoral votes shall be completed and the result declared."[40] No recess can be taken "unless a question shall have arisen in regard to counting any such votes, or otherwise under [Title 3, Chapter 1]," in which case either House, acting separately, can recess itself until 10:00 am the next day (Sunday excepted).[40] But if the counting of the electoral votes and the declaration of the result have not been completed before the fifth calendar day after the joint session began, "no further or other recess shall be taken by either House."

(It does not allow discussion by video in a pandemic)

Regnad Kcin · 30th December 2020, 07:35 PM

He kept everyone from panicking.

The Great Zaganza · 30th December 2020, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

My question would be: How much is the Trump administration responsible for this in a positive sense?

At least one of those countries (Bahrain??) did a deal so they could get cheap access to wizzo new US war technologies...to attack Iran with at some later date, presumably. Not exactly a "peace" initiative, more like taking advantage of a useful idiot.

Also, how much of this would have been achieved without the USA present at all? I am going to imagine that Jared, the supposed broker in all this, has not one frigging clue what happened without him there, or what the real deals were. Clueless is his watchword.

I think Trump is responsible for the normalization, because he basically told Bibi: do whatever you want we'll support you. This took away the ability of other countries to pressure Israel into concessions.

All the work was done by Israel, but they wouldn't have done it with, say, Obamacare in the White House.

CapelDodger · 30th December 2020, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Trump's accomplishments are less about what he got done, and more about what he failed to prevent.

Perhaps we should approach this by considering the challenges the US actually faced before Trump's election and how well he's addressed them. His abject failure in the face of a sudden crisis needs no discussion, obviously, but the epochal shift fom the Oil Age to Post-Oil, or from the Atlantic focus to the West Pacific focus, or parochial issues like US health care - how has he fared? Not well, in my opinion.

CapelDodger · 30th December 2020, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Also, how much of this would have been achieved without the USA present at all?

Israel and Saudi Arabia are natural allies. The Sauds have money, the Israelis can supply them knock-off US military technology and can provide a nuclear umbrella. The Wahhabist sympathies of Gulf Arabs and the Jewish Exceptionalism of Likudist Israel pale into insignifance in the face of that. As does the US - but they can provide boots on the ground, and hugely expensive carrier groups out at sea.

Quote:

I am going to imagine that Jared, the supposed broker in all this, has not one frigging clue what happened without him there ...

"Imagine" is the best any of us can ever do, because "But his emails ...!"

Quote:

... or what the real deals were.

I imagine the Kushner and Netenyahu dynasties featured in there, but I'll admit to having no evidence. Yet.

CapelDodger · 30th December 2020, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

I think Trump is responsible for the normalization, because he basically told Bibi: do whatever you want we'll support you. This took away the ability of other countries to pressure Israel into concessions.

Which "other countries" ever had that ability?

Quote:

All the work was done by Israel ...

What work?

Quote:

... but they wouldn't have done it with, say, Obamacare in the White House.

Why not? Obama epitomised why Israel and Saudi Arabia needed to be less reliant on the US, and to recognise their shared interests.

smartcooky · 31st December 2020, 02:58 AM

Does destroying the rest of the world's respect for the US, and turning your country into a global laughing stock count as an achievement?

slyjoe · 31st December 2020, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Does destroying the rest of the world's respect for the US, and turning your country into a global laughing stock count as an achievement?

Da.

JoeMorgue · 31st December 2020, 06:39 AM

1. He promoted the US Cyber Command to full combatant command. This is the one movie I will actually say I fully "Like." The government has been far too long in seeing our nation's cyber defense structure as a valid, integrated part of national defense and getting rid of the US Cyber Command's weird half structure dual hat setup that made doing anything impossible because you had two completely separate chains of command is a huge step in fixing that.

2. The lifetime ban on White House employees lobbying for foreign powers was... I won't like a sort of "Holy **** you mean they could do that before?" thing for me.

3. It's silly and stupid... but I don't hate the way he decorated the White House for Christmas. I've said before that The White House being perpetually stuck in a limbo state of never changing "Quaint Americana on top of Classic Greco-Roman" look that's never allowed to evolve beyond "What if Norman Rockwell threw up on chiseled marble" never set well for me. I won't say I personally liked it on an aesthetic level but seeing a weird, sorta post-modern, almost avante garde look... I didn't hate it.

Darat · 31st December 2020, 07:02 AM

You also need to consider what he said he wanted to accomplish.

Two of his major campaigning policies were “the wall” and healthcare - he failed at both of those.

Another policy promise was removing many environmental protection regulations - he succeeded at that.

JoeMorgue · 31st December 2020, 07:08 AM

Well as far as "Trolling the Libs" the one and only thing he was actually elected to do, he's the single most successful President in history by a massive margin.

Segnosaur · 31st December 2020, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

2. The lifetime ban on White House employees lobbying for foreign powers was... I won't like a sort of "Holy **** you mean they could do that before?" thing for me.

Yes. Good job Trump. Or maybe not.

From: Politico
Trump's ethics pledge, issued as an executive order on Saturday, includes a five-year "lobbying ban" that falls short of its name, preventing officials from lobbying the agency they worked in for five years after they leave, but allowing them to lobby other parts of the government....The order also lets lobbyists join the administration as long as they don't work on anything they specifically lobbied on for two years. Obama's order from 2009, which Trump revoked, blocked people who were registered lobbyists in the preceding year from taking administration jobs....Obama's order also restricted all administration officials from contacting their former agencies for two years after they leave. Trump changed it back to one year for some 3,000 people...Obama issued ethics waivers for some officials, and Trump's executive order retained that ability but removed the requirement to disclose them.

Of course, that article was from 2017... maybe things are better now...

From: Politifact
...a James Madison University political scientist..."It is not at all clear how, or even if, this 'ban' is enforced," he said. Meanwhile, the administration has eagerly brought lobbyists to work in government. An October 2019 investigation by ProPublica found that 281 lobbyists have worked in the Trump administration...That's four times higher than the rate was under Trump's predecessor, Barack Obama

And then there is this...

From: Politifact
As a 2016 presidential candidate...his administration would seek to "clean up the corruption"... One way to achieve that would be a complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections..."Trump has made no effort at all to ban fundraising by lobbyists who represent foreign interests. No such restriction was included in Trump's ethics executive order — which is largely unenforced, anyway — and no such effort was offered in the form of legislation," said Craig Holman, Public Citizen's Capitol Hill lobbyist on ethics, lobbying and campaign finance rules.

So Trump's actions to clean up corruption by limiting the actions of lobbyists 1) has provisions that made things worse in some ways, 2) may end up not being enforced anyways.

Quote:

3. It's silly and stupid... but I don't hate the way he decorated the White House for Christmas.

Does that include Melania's blood-red christmas trees?

Ziggurat · 31st December 2020, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Also, how much of this would have been achieved without the USA present at all? I am going to imagine that Jared, the supposed broker in all this, has not one frigging clue what happened without him there, or what the real deals were. Clueless is his watchword.

I keep hearing this. And yet, he still got done what many people who supposedly knew what they were doing, who were supposedly experts in the region, said was impossible to do.

wareyin · 31st December 2020, 08:15 AM

Trump has certainly revealed how little regard Republicans had for any of their own self-proclaimed deep seated convictions.

Firestone · 31st December 2020, 09:15 AM

The only real accomplishment for me: the treaties between Israel and a number of Arab states.

Whatever one thinks about Trump and Kushner (I for one think very badly about them), they let the parties involved do what they have wanted to do for some time.

Is that a good thing? IMO, yes.

It goes without saying that it would have been better to achieve a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict too, a two-state solution guaranteeing bla bla bla (we all know the mantras about what a just and durable peace should encompass).

But that noble goal has eluded many US admins, Quartets, European initiatives, etc.
Blaming Trump for not achieving Israeli-Palestinian peace would be ridiculous.

It is my hope that an environment where Israel and many Arab states are cooperating, trading, is a better environment for eventual peace than the one we had before.

(I, as (((Firestone))), blame Netanyahu for not having opportunistically used a very pro Israeli US admin to try to get some agreement with the Palestinians, but he was way to busy running from the courts. Anyway, that's another matter.)

Tero · 31st December 2020, 03:47 PM

Columnist says no permanent change in GOP
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...sidency-office

Norman Alexander · 31st December 2020, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I keep hearing this. And yet, he still got done what many people who supposedly knew what they were doing, who were supposedly experts in the region, said was impossible to do.

My comment was to the effect that Jared was not in any way responsible for getting anything done in this arena. All the "success", for better or worse, was achieved by others. Comments above suggest it was mostly Israel - I am not sure.

But by assigning the responsibility for the outcomes on clueless idiot Jared, and thus by implication Trump and the USA, should anything go wrong later with these accords, Trump and the USA will be the ones taking all the blame.

That said, yes, this is progress of a sort. But then, the Middle East has always been an ever-changing mix of war and peace, alliances and aggression since forever. So this is just another such change.

Ziggurat · 31st December 2020, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

My comment was to the effect that Jared was not in any way responsible for getting anything done in this arena.

You have no insider knowledge, and are in no position to make that declaration. You say that because you can't conceive of it any other way, not because you actually have any evidence to that effect.

dirtywick · 31st December 2020, 05:25 PM

pretty short list

Norman Alexander · 31st December 2020, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You have no insider knowledge, and are in no position to make that declaration. You say that because you can't conceive of it any other way, not because you actually have any evidence to that effect.

The process had been developing for many years before Kushner turned up. So if you want to say the US has been involved, it has...since the Obama Administration and quite possibly before that. Here's WaPo last August on the subject:

Quote:

“The UAE-Israel strategic relationship was fueled by mutual fears of Iran and formalized by the United States,” said Karim Sadjadpour, a Middle East analyst at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “It’s an example of Trump slapping his name on a hotel that was essentially already built.”

...

“The same thing with Trump, who is trying very hard to distract attention” from his own problems with the virus, she said. “To show he can be a peacemaker even with something so minor as the UAE-Israeli agreement.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...381_story.html

angrysoba · 31st December 2020, 07:28 PM

For me, a lot of this comes down to "What if Obama did it?"

1.) If Obama did Space Force with all the references to Star Trek and other SF. Would we say, "LOL! Stooooopid!" Or would we say, "That's so cool! It's almost Elon Musk-eque and no one has a problem with that!" So let's give Trump that one.

2.) If Obama had got those diplomatic treaties between Israel and the Arab states, would people say it is a good thing or would they be finding reasons to deny they are worth anything / that he was not responsible? Well, obviously Republicans would, and it would be seen as evidence that nothing will please them. Don't do the same.

3.) Yeah, no wars for four years actually looks like an achievement now. This is one of the reasons I asked in a thread whether George W Bush was worse than him. Some people then pointed out some good things that GWB did that I was not aware of. Also, I believe he vetoed bills urging an end to Saudi involvement in Yemen, and he's probably not so much against wars happening as just not getting US military involved. Still, no US military involvement in wars for four years is generally considered a good thing.

This is all counterbalanced by the fact he has tried to destroy all democratic precedents in the US, and basically been a complete arse for four years, but you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Norman Alexander · 31st December 2020, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

For me, a lot of this comes down to "What if Obama did it?"

1.) If Obama did Space Force with all the references to Star Trek and other SF. Would we say, "LOL! Stooooopid!" Or would we say, "That's so cool! It's almost Elon Musk-eque and no one has a problem with that!" So let's give Trump that one.

If Obama had created Space Force for the same reasons and using the same logos, etc, then I'm sure the response would be two-fold: What the hell?!! And what the heck has Barack been smokin' in his downtime? Overall, Space Force is simply a rebrand of the USAF Space Command that was expensive and unnecessary. So no "success" for Diaper Don there.

Quote:

2.) If Obama had got those diplomatic treaties between Israel and the Arab states, would people say it is a good thing or would they be finding reasons to deny they are worth anything / that he was not responsible? Well, obviously Republicans would, and it would be seen as evidence that nothing will please them. Don't do the same.

The outcome is desirable. It's a short step towards normalisation. But it's also a short step forward after the giant leap back of withdrawing from the Iran nuclear treaty. And the Trump administration had precious little to do with it anyway (see above). So a small success.

Quote:

3.) Yeah, no wars for four years actually looks like an achievement now. This is one of the reasons I asked in a thread whether George W Bush was worse than him. Some people then pointed out some good things that GWB did that I was not aware of. Also, I believe he vetoed bills urging an end to Saudi involvement in Yemen, and he's probably not so much against wars happening as just not getting US military involved. Still, no US military involvement in wars for four years is generally considered a good thing.

The US military overseas intervention situation has not really improved for 4 years. And there have been some withdrawals from some expensive and prolonged international campaigns. But most of it has been giving up control to either local despots, or international despots who have been waiting for the opportunity, making the situation worse and reneging on allies. Success?

Quote:

This is all counterbalanced by the fact he has tried to destroy all democratic precedents in the US, and basically been a complete arse for four years, but you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Internationally, he is a running joke behind his back, while being comprehensively out-diplomacied to his face. There's a simple one paragraph set of instructions that all foreign diplomats use to "play" Diaper Don. To the hilt.

The Great Zaganza · 1st January 2021, 12:40 AM

Kushner's greatest achievement in the Middle East was to force Qatar into leasing his devil building for 99 years for $1.1 billion.
There has never been a greater act of corruption in US politics in terms of shear size.

Hlafordlaes · 1st January 2021, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I keep hearing this. And yet, he still got done what many people who supposedly knew what they were doing, who were supposedly experts in the region, said was impossible to do.

For example, by pretending the USA is the UN by "ceding" Western Sahara to Morocco. Easy to "accomplish" things when all you are doing is dismissing your commitment to the rule of law.

As for the Gulf states, as others have already observed, they need a local ally to counterbalance a regionally ambitious Turkey and the constant subterfuge of Iran in the Levant, Iraq and Syria... in the face of a now-irrelevant USA. For everyone now knows that if you are an ally of the US, you may very well die when the GOP lifts its girly skirts and runs from the battlefield on a fat man's whim. Note: The US now has a new sworn enemy, a former ally: the Kurds.

"Mission Accomplished", dear Vladimir. All yours now, the entire region has put the run on Yanks, even Israel, who has shown it alone will call the shots on Iran, thank ye kindly, the US being its useful idiot who will simply have to deal with Israeli facts on the ground.

smartcooky · 1st January 2021, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

For example, by pretending the USA is the UN by "ceding" Western Sahara to Morocco. Easy to "accomplish" things when all you are doing is dismissing your commitment to the rule of law.

As for the Gulf states, as others have already observed, they need a local ally to counterbalance a regionally ambitious Turkey and the constant subterfuge of Iran in the Levant, Iraq and Syria... in the face of a now-irrelevant USA. For everyone now knows that if you are an ally of the US, you may very well die when the GOP lifts its girly skirts and runs from the battlefield on a fat man's whim. Note: The US now has a new sworn enemy, a former ally: the Kurds.

THIS

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

"Mission Accomplished", dear Vladimir. All yours now, the entire region has put the run on Yanks, even Israel, who has shown it alone will call the shots on Iran, thank ye kindly, the US being its useful idiot who will simply have to deal with Israeli facts on the ground.

and THIS.

Trump has effectively handed control over to his controller!

Ziggurat · 1st January 2021, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

The process had been developing for many years before Kushner turned up. So if you want to say the US has been involved, it has...since the Obama Administration and quite possibly before that. Here's WaPo last August on the subject:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...381_story.html

So you don’t have any actual knowledge. You have second hand reporting of the opinions of people whom you don’t know if they have any insider knowledge, let alone what their motives are to spin it in whatever direction they want to, and you would have no idea.

Darat · 1st January 2021, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

So you don’t have any actual knowledge. You have second hand reporting of the opinions of people whom you don’t know if they have any insider knowledge, let alone what their motives are to spin it in whatever direction they want to, and you would have no idea.

I think accusing him of being a typical Trump supporter is a tad strong!

Horatius · 1st January 2021, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

The outcome is desirable. It's a short step towards normalisation. But it's also a short step forward after the giant leap back of withdrawing from the Iran nuclear treaty. And the Trump administration had precious little to do with it anyway (see above). So a small success.

And as always, when trying to compare "What if Obama had done it?" to any of Trump's achievements, you also have to consider the question of how they would do it. Trump largely achieved his gains in the Middle East by letting them buy tens of billions worth of advanced weapons. That's "winning diplomacy on the easy setting". Had Obama made the same deal, it's a lock that the Republicans would be decrying this deal as much as they did the Iran Deal. And Trump's deals provide much less benefit than the Iran Deal did.

smartcooky · 1st January 2021, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

I think accusing him of being a typical Trump supporter is a tad strong!

Norman Alexander · 2nd January 2021, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

So you don’t have any actual knowledge. You have second hand reporting of the opinions of people whom you don’t know if they have any insider knowledge, let alone what their motives are to spin it in whatever direction they want to, and you would have no idea.

Enlighten us, then.

Ziggurat · 2nd January 2021, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Enlighten us, then.

I don't know what role he played. I don't know how much credit Kushner deserves. The difference is I don't pretend to know what I don't actually know.

Skeptic Ginger · 2nd January 2021, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

They aren’t peace treaties. They are normalization treaties, between countries which did not have normalized relations. And yes, it’s a big deal, and a step forward.

You believe it despite evidence to the contrary. Because reasons.

Basically Trump threw the Palestinians under the bus to get whatever it is you think is a big deal.

30th December 2020, 05:17 PM	#1
Safe-Keeper Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 10,395	Trump's accomplishments So now that both the year and the Orange Reign are (finally) almost over, I thought it'd be an idea to list his achievements. We know they are overshadowed by all the bad he's done, but for fairness' sake, let's make an honest effort to list the things he's done that we actually appreciate. I'll start. Hmmm. Will need some help with this one. Let's google "Trump's achievements". Don't know what I expected, but This Atlantic article has a couple small ones I can get behind. -regulations on vaping. Good, I... guess? Don't have anything against flavoured vaping cartridges, but... I guess if it keeps teens from starting to vape, and then progress to cigarettes, it'll save lives, so... nah, I admit I don't really have a strong opinion on this. I'll file it under "undecided". -kicking out China from 5G networks. Not a subject I know much about, and quite possibly done out of anti-Chinese bigotry as much as any rational incentive, but fair enough, I suppose. -re-establishing due process on campuses. -the First Step program. Moving on, here are the things I can think of off the top of my head: Something about parental leave. Don't remember the details. I'd say something about the economy, but the damage he's done here in this regard has probably outdone the good. Actually, strike probably. I don't know if this counts as I doubt it was genuine, but he catered to the downtrodden working class that felt "the elite" didn't care about them, might just have energized that portion of the population and forced future candidates to care more about income inequality and social mobility. As another poster said, Trump's election was a brick through the window, a cry of "can you hear us now?!" that should not be ignored. Negotiated "peace treaties" between countries in the Middle East that weren't at war to begin with. Of course, like with the economy, I fully believe he's done more to hurt Middle Eastern and world peace than to further it, so don't know if this counts. I'd list progress against ISIS, but I'm not feeling it. Again, whatever achievements he made on the counter-terrorism/diplomatic/no more wars front are outweighed by the damage done. I refuse to list "started no new wars". It feels like talking about why you like your spouse and saying "he doesn't hit me". Nearly all world leaders don't start wars. That's not a big achievement unless, of course, a Cuban missile crisis-style scenario arises where avoiding a war is both desirable and difficult. Also, there's something hypocritical about Trump supporters cheering victories against ISIS and at the same time bragging that Trump was a pacifist who didn't get the US entangled in conflicts. I suppose as an honourable mention I can add that he mobilized and united the forces of good in the USA to a degree I haven't seen in a long time. His presidency shone a spotlight on police violence, corruption, racism, and how much bigotry and authoritarianism there is in the US population. It rallied people against fake news and conspiracy theories and the postfact society in general. And... I really can't think of anything else, to be honest .
	__________________ "He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig

30th December 2020, 05:42 PM	#2
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,352	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper Negotiated "peace treaties" between countries in the Middle East that weren't at war to begin with. They aren’t peace treaties. They are normalization treaties, between countries which did not have normalized relations. And yes, it’s a big deal, and a step forward. Quote: Of course, like with the economy, I fully believe he's done more to hurt Middle Eastern and world peace than to further it, so don't know if this counts. You believe it despite evidence to the contrary. Because reasons.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

30th December 2020, 05:52 PM	#3
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,417	No new wars is a big accomplishment for a US president. He's the first in 40 years. If you like his judges, there's that. More Mitch's doing but its something that happened while he was president. The criminal justice reform bill is largely a positive. There's decent argument for why it wouldn't have happened under a normal president. Normal Rep would do it for obvious reasons and a normal Dem wouldn't have avoid being seen as "soft on Crime", maybe. Counter factual and all. As far as the Middle East, IDK, he tried something different regarding Arab Israeli relations and something good happened. I suspect is more the result of Iran's rise scaring the Arabs. The invasion of Iraq was such a screw up, I'm not sure the US can do anything truly positive at this point. Even pulling out is going to have a bad outcome. He is largely terrible but broken clocks....
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,417	Last edited by ahhell; 30th December 2020 at 05:57 PM.

30th December 2020, 06:02 PM	#5
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,429	the First Step Act, itself a watered-down version of Obama-era reforms that were blocked by republican senators led by Tom Cotton - was rather mixed, actually, as his own DoJ tried to sabotage it - in addition to using private prisons, concentration camps for refugees, and resuming criminal prosecutions for weed, giving military surplus to local PDs, kneecapping consent decrees, refusing to investigate violent white nationalist groups., an using mercenaries to attack nonviolent protestors in multiple cities. In other words, it's going to take a while to fix all of the things he broke as far as criminal justice reform goes.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,429

30th December 2020, 07:18 PM	#6
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by ahhell As far as the Middle East, IDK, he tried something different regarding Arab Israeli relations and something good happened. Israeli relations with Palestinian Arabs did not improve at all - quite the opposite. Their relations with Gulf Arabs have improved, and shared interests recognised in a new Triple Alliance between the US, the Saud dynasty and their hangers-on, and Likudian Israel. Quote: I suspect is more the result of Iran's rise scaring the Arabs There's been no rise in Iran for a while, but a lot of Shia Arabs are grateful for their support - and that's where the numbers are. Quote: The invasion of Iraq was such a screw up, I'm not sure the US can do anything truly positive at this point. Even pulling out is going to have a bad outcome. At least it will be their outcome. At last the post-Ottoman dispensation could work itself out locally, and it would recognise that the Middle East really has no strategic importance any more.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

30th December 2020, 05:57 PM	#4
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,241	Some people think the requirement that new buildings use neoclassical architecture. I despise that though.

30th December 2020, 07:24 PM	#7
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,677	Trump's accomplishments are less about what he got done, and more about what he failed to prevent.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

30th December 2020, 07:27 PM	#8
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,795	Originally Posted by Ziggurat They aren’t peace treaties. They are normalization treaties, between [Middle Eastern] countries which did not have normalized relations. And yes, it’s a big deal, and a step forward. My question would be: How much is the Trump administration responsible for this in a positive sense? At least one of those countries (Bahrain??) did a deal so they could get cheap access to wizzo new US war technologies...to attack Iran with at some later date, presumably. Not exactly a "peace" initiative, more like taking advantage of a useful idiot. Also, how much of this would have been achieved without the USA present at all? I am going to imagine that Jared, the supposed broker in all this, has not one frigging clue what happened without him there, or what the *real* deals were. Clueless is his watchword.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

30th December 2020, 07:30 PM	#9
Tero Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North American prairie Posts: 2,202	personally, I learned so much about the constitution in 4 years, including its failures. Today I learned how useless how the electoral vote count law is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_Count_Act Section 7 (now 3 U.S.C. § 16) states that the joint session cannot be dissolved "until the count of electoral votes shall be completed and the result declared."[40] No recess can be taken "unless a question shall have arisen in regard to counting any such votes, or otherwise under [Title 3, Chapter 1]," in which case either House, acting separately, can recess itself until 10:00 am the next day (Sunday excepted).[40] But if the counting of the electoral votes and the declaration of the result have not been completed before the fifth calendar day after the joint session began, "no further or other recess shall be taken by either House." (It does not allow discussion by video in a pandemic)
	__________________ I've deleted the one blog link. You can find the humor blog by searching "the kari report blogspot." Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/

30th December 2020, 07:35 PM	#10
Regnad Kcin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York Posts: 10,240	He kept everyone from panicking.
	__________________ My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.

30th December 2020, 07:37 PM	#11
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,677	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander My question would be: How much is the Trump administration responsible for this in a positive sense? At least one of those countries (Bahrain??) did a deal so they could get cheap access to wizzo new US war technologies...to attack Iran with at some later date, presumably. Not exactly a "peace" initiative, more like taking advantage of a useful idiot. Also, how much of this would have been achieved without the USA present at all? I am going to imagine that Jared, the supposed broker in all this, has not one frigging clue what happened without him there, or what the *real* deals were. Clueless is his watchword. I think Trump is responsible for the normalization, because he basically told Bibi: do whatever you want we'll support you. This took away the ability of other countries to pressure Israel into concessions. All the work was done by Israel, but they wouldn't have done it with, say, Obamacare in the White House.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

30th December 2020, 07:43 PM	#12
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Trump's accomplishments are less about what he got done, and more about what he failed to prevent. Perhaps we should approach this by considering the challenges the US actually faced before Trump's election and how well he's addressed them. His abject failure in the face of a sudden crisis needs no discussion, obviously, but the epochal shift fom the Oil Age to Post-Oil, or from the Atlantic focus to the West Pacific focus, or parochial issues like US health care - how has he fared? Not well, in my opinion.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

30th December 2020, 08:06 PM	#13
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Also, how much of this would have been achieved without the USA present at all? Israel and Saudi Arabia are natural allies. The Sauds have money, the Israelis can supply them knock-off US military technology and can provide a nuclear umbrella. The Wahhabist sympathies of Gulf Arabs and the Jewish Exceptionalism of Likudist Israel pale into insignifance in the face of that. As does the US - but they can provide boots on the ground, and hugely expensive carrier groups out at sea. Quote: I am going to imagine that Jared, the supposed broker in all this, has not one frigging clue what happened without him there ... "Imagine" is the best any of us can ever do, because "But his emails ...!" Quote: ... or what the *real* deals were. I imagine the Kushner and Netenyahu dynasties featured in there, but I'll admit to having no evidence. Yet.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

30th December 2020, 08:14 PM	#14
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza I think Trump is responsible for the normalization, because he basically told Bibi: do whatever you want we'll support you. This took away the ability of other countries to pressure Israel into concessions. Which "other countries" ever had that ability? Quote: All the work was done by Israel ... What work? Quote: ... but they wouldn't have done it with, say, Obamacare in the White House. Why not? Obama epitomised why Israel and Saudi Arabia needed to be less reliant on the US, and to recognise their shared interests.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

31st December 2020, 02:58 AM	#15
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 16,807	Does destroying the rest of the world's respect for the US, and turning your country into a global laughing stock count as an achievement?
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

31st December 2020, 06:38 AM	#16
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,561	Originally Posted by smartcooky Does destroying the rest of the world's respect for the US, and turning your country into a global laughing stock count as an achievement? Da.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

31st December 2020, 06:39 AM	#17
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,692	1. He promoted the US Cyber Command to full combatant command. This is the one movie I will actually say I fully "Like." The government has been far too long in seeing our nation's cyber defense structure as a valid, integrated part of national defense and getting rid of the US Cyber Command's weird half structure dual hat setup that made doing anything impossible because you had two completely separate chains of command is a huge step in fixing that. 2. The lifetime ban on White House employees lobbying for foreign powers was... I won't like a sort of "Holy **** you mean they could do that before?" thing for me. 3. It's silly and stupid... but I don't hate the way he decorated the White House for Christmas. I've said before that The White House being perpetually stuck in a limbo state of never changing "Quaint Americana on top of Classic Greco-Roman" look that's never allowed to evolve beyond "What if Norman Rockwell threw up on chiseled marble" never set well for me. I won't say I personally liked it on an aesthetic level but seeing a weird, sorta post-modern, almost avante garde look... I didn't hate it.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

31st December 2020, 07:02 AM	#18
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,067	You also need to consider what he said he wanted to accomplish. Two of his major campaigning policies were “the wall” and healthcare - he failed at both of those. Another policy promise was removing many environmental protection regulations - he succeeded at that.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

31st December 2020, 07:08 AM	#19
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,692	Well as far as "Trolling the Libs" the one and only thing he was actually elected to do, he's the single most successful President in history by a massive margin.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

31st December 2020, 07:27 AM	#20
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,122	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue 2. The lifetime ban on White House employees lobbying for foreign powers was... I won't like a sort of "Holy **** you mean they could do that before?" thing for me. Yes. Good job Trump. Or maybe not. From: Politico Trump's ethics pledge, issued as an executive order on Saturday, includes a five-year "lobbying ban" that falls short of its name, preventing officials from lobbying the agency they worked in for five years after they leave, but allowing them to lobby other parts of the government....The order also lets lobbyists join the administration as long as they don't work on anything they specifically lobbied on for two years. Obama's order from 2009, which Trump revoked, blocked people who were registered lobbyists in the preceding year from taking administration jobs....Obama's order also restricted all administration officials from contacting their former agencies for two years after they leave. Trump changed it back to one year for some 3,000 people...Obama issued ethics waivers for some officials, and Trump's executive order retained that ability but removed the requirement to disclose them. Of course, that article was from 2017... maybe things are better now... From: Politifact ...a James Madison University political scientist..."It is not at all clear how, or even if, this 'ban' is enforced," he said. Meanwhile, the administration has eagerly brought lobbyists to work in government. An October 2019 investigation by ProPublica found that 281 lobbyists have worked in the Trump administration...That's four times higher than the rate was under Trump's predecessor, Barack Obama And then there is this... From: Politifact As a 2016 presidential candidate...his administration would seek to "clean up the corruption"... One way to achieve that would be a complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections..."Trump has made no effort at all to ban fundraising by lobbyists who represent foreign interests. No such restriction was included in Trump's ethics executive order — which is largely unenforced, anyway — and no such effort was offered in the form of legislation," said Craig Holman, Public Citizen's Capitol Hill lobbyist on ethics, lobbying and campaign finance rules. So Trump's actions to clean up corruption by limiting the actions of lobbyists 1) has provisions that made things worse in some ways, 2) may end up not being enforced anyways. Quote: 3. It's silly and stupid... but I don't hate the way he decorated the White House for Christmas. Does that include Melania's blood-red christmas trees?
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

31st December 2020, 07:56 AM	#21
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,352	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Also, how much of this would have been achieved without the USA present at all? I am going to imagine that Jared, the supposed broker in all this, has not one frigging clue what happened without him there, or what the *real* deals were. Clueless is his watchword. I keep hearing this. And yet, he still got done what many people who supposedly knew what they were doing, who were supposedly experts in the region, said was impossible to do.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

31st December 2020, 08:15 AM	#22
wareyin Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 8,350	Trump has certainly revealed how little regard Republicans had for any of their own self-proclaimed deep seated convictions.

31st December 2020, 09:15 AM	#23
Firestone Proud Award Award recipient Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,997	The only real accomplishment for me: the treaties between Israel and a number of Arab states. Whatever one thinks about Trump and Kushner (I for one think very badly about them), they let the parties involved do what they have wanted to do for some time. Is that a good thing? IMO, yes. It goes without saying that it would have been better to achieve a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict too, a two-state solution guaranteeing bla bla bla (we all know the mantras about what a just and durable peace should encompass). But that noble goal has eluded many US admins, Quartets, European initiatives, etc. Blaming Trump for not achieving Israeli-Palestinian peace would be ridiculous. It is my hope that an environment where Israel and many Arab states are cooperating, trading, is a better environment for eventual peace than the one we had before. (I, as (((Firestone))), blame Netanyahu for not having opportunistically used a very pro Israeli US admin to try to get some agreement with the Palestinians, but he was way to busy running from the courts. Anyway, that's another matter.)
	__________________ The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan Last edited by Firestone; 31st December 2020 at 10:18 AM.

31st December 2020, 03:47 PM	#24
Tero Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North American prairie Posts: 2,202	Columnist says no permanent change in GOP https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...sidency-office
	__________________ I've deleted the one blog link. You can find the humor blog by searching "the kari report blogspot." Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/

31st December 2020, 05:02 PM	#25
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,795	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I keep hearing this. And yet, he still got done what many people who supposedly knew what they were doing, who were supposedly experts in the region, said was impossible to do. My comment was to the effect that Jared was not in any way responsible for getting anything done in this arena. All the "success", for better or worse, was achieved by others. Comments above suggest it was mostly Israel - I am not sure. But by assigning the responsibility for the outcomes on clueless idiot Jared, and thus by implication Trump and the USA, should anything go wrong later with these accords, Trump and the USA will be the ones taking all the blame. That said, yes, this is progress of a sort. But then, the Middle East has always been an ever-changing mix of war and peace, alliances and aggression since forever. So this is just another such change.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

31st December 2020, 05:09 PM	#26
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,352	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander My comment was to the effect that Jared was not in any way responsible for getting anything done in this arena. You have no insider knowledge, and are in no position to make that declaration. You say that because you can't conceive of it any other way, not because you actually have any evidence to that effect.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

31st December 2020, 05:25 PM	#27
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,129	pretty short list
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,129

31st December 2020, 06:47 PM	#28
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,795	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You have no insider knowledge, and are in no position to make that declaration. You say that because you can't conceive of it any other way, not because you actually have any evidence to that effect. The process had been developing for many years before Kushner turned up. So if you want to say the US has been involved, it has...since the Obama Administration and quite possibly before that. Here's WaPo last August on the subject: Quote: “The UAE-Israel strategic relationship was fueled by mutual fears of Iran and formalized by the United States,” said Karim Sadjadpour, a Middle East analyst at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “It’s an example of Trump slapping his name on a hotel that was essentially already built.” ... “The same thing with Trump, who is trying very hard to distract attention” from his own problems with the virus, she said. “To show he can be a peacemaker even with something so minor as the UAE-Israeli agreement.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...381_story.html
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

31st December 2020, 07:28 PM	#29
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,394	For me, a lot of this comes down to "What if Obama did it?" 1.) If Obama did Space Force with all the references to Star Trek and other SF. Would we say, "LOL! Stooooopid!" Or would we say, "That's so cool! It's almost Elon Musk-eque and no one has a problem with that!" So let's give Trump that one. 2.) If Obama had got those diplomatic treaties between Israel and the Arab states, would people say it is a good thing or would they be finding reasons to deny they are worth anything / that he was not responsible? Well, obviously Republicans would, and it would be seen as evidence that nothing will please them. Don't do the same. 3.) Yeah, no wars for four years actually looks like an achievement now. This is one of the reasons I asked in a thread whether George W Bush was worse than him. Some people then pointed out some good things that GWB did that I was not aware of. Also, I believe he vetoed bills urging an end to Saudi involvement in Yemen, and he's probably not so much against wars happening as just not getting US military involved. Still, no US military involvement in wars for four years is generally considered a good thing. This is all counterbalanced by the fact he has tried to destroy all democratic precedents in the US, and basically been a complete arse for four years, but you have to take the rough with the smooth.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

31st December 2020, 11:32 PM	#30
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,795	Originally Posted by angrysoba For me, a lot of this comes down to "What if Obama did it?" 1.) If Obama did Space Force with all the references to Star Trek and other SF. Would we say, "LOL! Stooooopid!" Or would we say, "That's so cool! It's almost Elon Musk-eque and no one has a problem with that!" So let's give Trump that one. If Obama had created Space Force for the same reasons and using the same logos, etc, then I'm sure the response would be two-fold: What the hell?!! And what the heck has Barack been smokin' in his downtime? Overall, Space Force is simply a rebrand of the USAF Space Command that was expensive and unnecessary. So no "success" for Diaper Don there. Quote: 2.) If Obama had got those diplomatic treaties between Israel and the Arab states, would people say it is a good thing or would they be finding reasons to deny they are worth anything / that he was not responsible? Well, obviously Republicans would, and it would be seen as evidence that nothing will please them. Don't do the same. The outcome is desirable. It's a short step towards normalisation. But it's also a short step forward after the giant leap back of withdrawing from the Iran nuclear treaty. And the Trump administration had precious little to do with it anyway (see above). So a small success. Quote: 3.) Yeah, no wars for four years actually looks like an achievement now. This is one of the reasons I asked in a thread whether George W Bush was worse than him. Some people then pointed out some good things that GWB did that I was not aware of. Also, I believe he vetoed bills urging an end to Saudi involvement in Yemen, and he's probably not so much against wars happening as just not getting US military involved. Still, no US military involvement in wars for four years is generally considered a good thing. The US military overseas intervention situation has not really improved for 4 years. And there have been some withdrawals from some expensive and prolonged international campaigns. But most of it has been giving up control to either local despots, or international despots who have been waiting for the opportunity, making the situation worse and reneging on allies. Success? Quote: This is all counterbalanced by the fact he has tried to destroy all democratic precedents in the US, and basically been a complete arse for four years, but you have to take the rough with the smooth. Internationally, he is a running joke behind his back, while being comprehensively out-diplomacied to his face. There's a simple one paragraph set of instructions that all foreign diplomats use to "play" Diaper Don. To the hilt.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015} Last edited by Norman Alexander; 31st December 2020 at 11:33 PM.

1st January 2021, 12:40 AM	#31
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,677	Kushner's greatest achievement in the Middle East was to force Qatar into leasing his devil building for 99 years for $1.1 billion. There has never been a greater act of corruption in US politics in terms of shear size.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

1st January 2021, 01:15 AM	#32
Hlafordlaes Disorder of Kilopi Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: State of Flux Posts: 14,669	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I keep hearing this. And yet, he still got done what many people who supposedly knew what they were doing, who were supposedly experts in the region, said was impossible to do. For example, by pretending the USA is the UN by "ceding" Western Sahara to Morocco. Easy to "accomplish" things when all you are doing is dismissing your commitment to the rule of law. As for the Gulf states, as others have already observed, they need a local ally to counterbalance a regionally ambitious Turkey and the constant subterfuge of Iran in the Levant, Iraq and Syria... in the face of a now-irrelevant USA. For everyone now knows that if you are an ally of the US, you may very well die when the GOP lifts its girly skirts and runs from the battlefield on a fat man's whim. Note: The US now has a new sworn enemy, a former ally: the Kurds. "Mission Accomplished", dear Vladimir. All yours now, the entire region has put the run on Yanks, even Israel, who has shown it alone will call the shots on Iran, thank ye kindly, the US being its useful idiot who will simply have to deal with Israeli facts on the ground.
	__________________ Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp Last edited by Hlafordlaes; 1st January 2021 at 01:16 AM.

1st January 2021, 01:52 AM	#33
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 16,807	Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes For example, by pretending the USA is the UN by "ceding" Western Sahara to Morocco. Easy to "accomplish" things when all you are doing is dismissing your commitment to the rule of law. As for the Gulf states, as others have already observed, they need a local ally to counterbalance a regionally ambitious Turkey and the constant subterfuge of Iran in the Levant, Iraq and Syria... in the face of a now-irrelevant USA. For everyone now knows that if you are an ally of the US, you may very well die when the GOP lifts its girly skirts and runs from the battlefield on a fat man's whim. Note: The US now has a new sworn enemy, a former ally: the Kurds. THIS Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes "Mission Accomplished", dear Vladimir. All yours now, the entire region has put the run on Yanks, even Israel, who has shown it alone will call the shots on Iran, thank ye kindly, the US being its useful idiot who will simply have to deal with Israeli facts on the ground. and THIS. Trump has effectively handed control over to his controller!
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

1st January 2021, 02:09 AM	#34
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,352	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander The process had been developing for many years before Kushner turned up. So if you want to say the US has been involved, it has...since the Obama Administration and quite possibly before that. Here's WaPo last August on the subject: https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...381_story.html So you don’t have any actual knowledge. You have second hand reporting of the opinions of people whom you don’t know if they have any insider knowledge, let alone what their motives are to spin it in whatever direction they want to, and you would have no idea.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

1st January 2021, 08:39 AM	#35
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,067	Originally Posted by Ziggurat So you don’t have any actual knowledge. You have second hand reporting of the opinions of people whom you don’t know if they have any insider knowledge, let alone what their motives are to spin it in whatever direction they want to, and you would have no idea. I think accusing him of being a typical Trump supporter is a tad strong!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you