IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies , Trump impeachment

Reply
Old 11th January 2021, 10:05 AM   #321
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,535
Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
I am confused. CNN says the impeachment resolution was introduced. I listened to the entire pro-forma session of the House of Representatives, and did not hear it. The session started, the Sergeant-at-Arms resigned, there were a few committee assignment motions, then the motion to ask Pence to invoke the 25th, then they adjourned. Where the hell is CNN getting the idea they introduced an impeachment resolution too? Was it just introduced on paper and not brought up during this session?
Because Congress is such a goddamn drama-queen of procedural dog and pony shows that "The process has started" has almost no meaning because the process is so intentionally long and intentionally convoluted and every process starts 10 times and ends 20 times.

I get it they want everything to have an air of ponderous importance but Jesus we're on a time limit here...
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 11th January 2021 at 10:06 AM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 10:05 AM   #322
slyjoe
Master Poster
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ
Posts: 2,554
Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
I am confused. CNN says the impeachment resolution was introduced. I listened to the entire pro-forma session of the House of Representatives, and did not hear it. The session started, the Sergeant-at-Arms resigned, there were a few committee assignment motions, then the motion to ask Pence to invoke the 25th, then they adjourned. Where the hell is CNN getting the idea they introduced an impeachment resolution too? Was it just introduced on paper and not brought up during this session?
What you saw re: the 25th was NOT the pro forma session. CNN said the pro forma session came after the session that was recessed until 9AM tomorrow.

ETA: Now I'm not sure which was which. The CNN article doesn't seem to be consistent regarding timelines. And I didn't catch the entire session(s).
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

Last edited by slyjoe; 11th January 2021 at 10:10 AM.
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 10:11 AM   #323
jadebox
Graduate Poster
 
jadebox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,884
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But it looks like the vote won't be until Wednesday for... whatever reason.
It's because they follow the rules. The resolution has to go to the House Rules Committee before the full House votes.
jadebox is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 10:13 AM   #324
jadebox
Graduate Poster
 
jadebox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,884
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
What you saw re: the 25th was NOT the pro forma session. CNN said the pro forma session came after the session that was recessed until 9AM tomorrow.

ETA: Now I'm not sure which was which. The CNN article doesn't seem to be consistent regarding timelines. And I didn't catch the entire session(s).
The pro-forma session that introduced the resolution to impeach came right after the House recessed this morning's session. It was very brief ... probably about a minute long. So, it would have been easy to miss.
jadebox is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 10:14 AM   #325
slyjoe
Master Poster
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ
Posts: 2,554
Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
The pro-forma session that introduced the resolution to impeach came right after the House recessed this morning's session. It was very brief ... probably about a minute long. So, it would have been easy to miss.
Thank you.

When they said recess I quite watching. That made it easy to miss too.
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 10:19 AM   #326
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 17,092
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because Congress is such a goddamn drama-queen of procedural dog and pony shows that "The process has started" has almost no meaning because the process is so intentionally long and intentionally convoluted and every process starts 10 times and ends 20 times.

I get it they want everything to have an air of ponderous importance but Jesus we're on a time limit here...
Unfortunately, unless they get Moscow Mitch and a significant block of the Republican party on side, even if the house rushes things the case probably wouldn't be voted on in the senate until after Biden's inauguration.

So, if they fast-track it, they still won't remove Trump early but may end up looking 'sloppy'. So if they take their time, do things according to procedure, they may be able to highlight Trump's transgressions in a better way.

That could be their thinking.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 10:24 AM   #327
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,535
Call me crazy but I want a little pep in the step when you're responding to an angry mob storming the Capitol.

They are not acting like they truly think what Trump was did was bad and that they can just get around to dealing with it anytime they feel like it, which was the problem with the last impeachment as well.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 11th January 2021 at 10:26 AM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 10:24 AM   #328
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,346
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Unfortunately, unless they get Moscow Mitch and a significant block of the Republican party on side, even if the house rushes things the case probably wouldn't be voted on in the senate until after Biden's inauguration.



So, if they fast-track it, they still won't remove Trump early but may end up looking 'sloppy'. So if they take their time, do things according to procedure, they may be able to highlight Trump's transgressions in a better way.



That could be their thinking.
Central to the point, an AG who will cooperate in finding and forwarding along evidence.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 11:14 AM   #329
Tero
Master Poster
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 2,199
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I wouldn't be so sure.

I know that conventional wisdom is that, but there are a lot of Senators who will see how unpopular the attempted lynching of not only Nancy Pelosi, but also Trump's VP.

It might actually be rather brave of them to side with Trump. Especially if opinion polls show his popularity nosediving, which it might.
They will get the 51 votes, if it's in the senate later, not now. Possibly Romney and a couple more. But they would need 17 republicans to permanently ban him from office.
__________________
I've deleted the one blog link. You can find the humor blog by searching "the kari report blogspot."

Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/
Tero is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 11:31 AM   #330
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,773
Originally Posted by Tero View Post
They will get the 51 votes, if it's in the senate later, not now. Possibly Romney and a couple more. But they would need 17 republicans to permanently ban him from office.
I was thinking about abstentions etc
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 11:35 AM   #331
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,535
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I was thinking about abstentions etc
//Slight hijack//

This isn't a law about raising the tax rate on Marmoset Skin Hats from 2% to 2.1%. It's an impeachment.

You should have to have an opinion and own it.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 11:51 AM   #332
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,773
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Slight hijack//

This isn't a law about raising the tax rate on Marmoset Skin Hats from 2% to 2.1%. It's an impeachment.

You should have to have an opinion and own it.
Hell yes, but if Republican Senators are too afraid to vote to convict or to acquit this time round, as long as there are enough of them, it would be good... maybe better because it would demonstrate how much of a backbone they have.

Enough will be aware that it's only going to look worse as the levers of power have moved and investigations into Trump and associates progress.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 11:54 AM   #333
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,535
Again I am just so over and done waiting for the "Oh this will be the thing that makes the Republicans reveal their true colors and that will finally matter this time, and we said that last time but this time we mean it" moment to come.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 12:05 PM   #334
dasmiller
Just the right amount of cowbell
 
dasmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon
Posts: 6,379
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Hell yes, but if Republican Senators are too afraid to vote to convict or to acquit this time round, as long as there are enough of them, it would be good... maybe better because it would demonstrate how much of a backbone they have.
Meh. If Lindsey Graham's spine was made of spaghetti, it wouldn't even be al dente.
__________________
"In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt
dasmiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 12:14 PM   #335
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 7,436
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't know if he wanted them to storm the Capitol. I seriously doubt that he wanted them to smash windows to get in.
On the other hand, multiple reports seem to say that Trump was quite gleeful at the chaos that he unleashed and didn't understand why everyone else around him wasn't.

All too credible, unfortunately, given that this is Trump. Going further, Trump's been actively working to set the groundwork for him becoming a dictator for a long time now. His only immediate disappointment with the attack on the Capitol building is fairly certainly that it didn't directly succeed in overturning the election to keep him in power. Any regret will likely be at the negative consequences suffered, rather than any hint of remorse for what he did.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 11th January 2021 at 12:16 PM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 12:16 PM   #336
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 23,453
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm not playing devil's advocate - I genuinely think it's a dumb move.

And I'm not the only one - here's a lifelong hard-left columnist from The Guardian saying the exact same thing, for the exact same reasons:



https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ump-exile-base



There you go - you nailed it on both counts.

Trump is an extraordinarily stupid and self-absorbed person. The idea of cause and effect is beyond his brain, and he was just playing the same game he's been playing since "Lock her up!" chants started. "Hey, they're cheering while I'm talking, I'll keep talking!"

As I keep saying, and as the Guardian bloke says, you can rise above it or sink down to his level and Democrats have chosen the latter.
So, a president inciting violence against institutions of democracy should not face repercussions?

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 12:18 PM   #337
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,535
Right now the Republicans (and EVERYONE making this argument) are playing the roll of the abusive spouse who now wants to keep the marriage going "for the sake of the children."
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 11th January 2021 at 12:46 PM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 12:41 PM   #338
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
So, a president inciting violence against institutions of democracy should not face repercussions?
A better question would be exactly what anybody else has done that is sinking down to his level.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 12:57 PM   #339
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If the bar is set so low that dislike causes the dismissal of a President, then you've dug a huge hole for every other person who wants to sit in that office.
Trust me, the next time a Democratic POTUS holds a rally with thousands of people after losing an election, and after claiming even *before* the election that, if they lose, it was rigged, and reminds them that the election was stolen, and exhorts the rally to march down to the Capitol where the electoral votes are being counted to prevent the steal, and the mob breaks in and threatens legislators and people die, I will be the first to ask for the impeachment of that POTUS.
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:00 PM   #340
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 28,163
Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Meh. If Lindsey Graham's spine was made of spaghetti, it wouldn't even be al dente.
I'm suprised the man can stand up.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:03 PM   #341
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
He should be impeached because he committed impeachable offenses. It is the right thing to do no matter whether it has any real effect or what the political consequences are. It is the right thing to do.
The cynical view is that doing something in politics because it is the right thing to do is hopelessly naive. And that's exactly why Trump should be impeached: if we can't do something this significant because it is the right thing to do, we're done as a society. It's only the cynical who think that cynicism is the way forward. The rest of us, however, do not need any of that crap.
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:06 PM   #342
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 28,163
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Unfortunately, unless they get Moscow Mitch and a significant block of the Republican party on side, even if the house rushes things the case probably wouldn't be voted on in the senate until after Biden's inauguration.

So, if they fast-track it, they still won't remove Trump early but may end up looking 'sloppy'. So if they take their time, do things according to procedure, they may be able to highlight Trump's transgressions in a better way.

That could be their thinking.
It won't be. Since the Senate is out of session, it requires a unanimous vote to reconvene before the 20th. The Senate will be back on the 19th but only holding pro forma procedures. McConnell has said that they could convene for a Senate trial on January 20th at 1:00 PM.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:07 PM   #343
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,396
I for one welcome this new and exciting normal in our governing process. I look forward to the next storming of the capital, bets on what it will be about? I think repealing Obamacare is the most likely.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:10 PM   #344
Azrael 5
Philosopher
 
Azrael 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,013
ANyoen seen this? https://www.state.gov/biographies/donald-j-trump/

It states "Donald Trump Presidencey ended 1/11/2021 at 19:38(GMT time)

Possibly some kind of webmaster optimism.
__________________
"I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown

Last edited by Azrael 5; 11th January 2021 at 01:11 PM.
Azrael 5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:13 PM   #345
dasmiller
Just the right amount of cowbell
 
dasmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon
Posts: 6,379
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The cynical view is that doing something in politics because it is the right thing to do is hopelessly naive. And that's exactly why Trump should be impeached: if we can't do something this significant because it is the right thing to do, we're done as a society.
Well said, sir.
__________________
"In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt
dasmiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:14 PM   #346
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,535
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It won't be. Since the Senate is out of session, it requires a unanimous vote to reconvene before the 20th. The Senate will be back on the 19th but only holding pro forma procedures. McConnell has said that they could convene for a Senate trial on January 20th at 1:00 PM.
Well how about this.

The Senate could go back in session. They have a job to do. They can go home when the job is done.

These aren't fry cooks at McDonalds. You don't just get to "clock out" and Fred Flintstone down the back of the dinosaur when it hits 5 o'clock.

They are public servants. Why are they deciding they'll get around to reacting to a coup based on their schedule?
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:26 PM   #347
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 28,215
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
So, a president inciting violence against institutions of democracy should not face repercussions?

Hans
He already is: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ex_cid=rrpromo

His support has absolutely tanked since the riot.

The only thing the world hates worse than a sore loser is a sore winner, so go Democrats!

Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
...and reminds them that the election was stolen...
Not equivalent, because they didn't try a Dildonian Coup, but it's not like Democrats didn't have a very fat cry in 2016 and for years afterwards:

WaPo - The Election was Stolen

Hillary Clinton - We Still Don't Know What Happened (in 2016) and Would Have Argued About it but Lacked Mechanism

Many Democrats Think 2016 Was Rigged

Lot of very short memories about.

See above re: bad winners.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:34 PM   #348
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 48,342
Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
ANyoen seen this? https://www.state.gov/biographies/donald-j-trump/

It states "Donald Trump Presidencey ended 1/11/2021 at 19:38(GMT time)

Possibly some kind of webmaster optimism.
Currently showing:
Quote:
We’re sorry, this site is currently experiencing technical difficulties.
Please try again in a few moments.
Reference ID:
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:36 PM   #349
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 23,453
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
A better question would be exactly what anybody else has done that is sinking down to his level.
No, that is a separate question.

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:39 PM   #350
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,535
The day the internet up and decided that anyone who opposed you was being a hypocrite meant you didn't do anything wrong was... well one of the days intellectual standards died.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:39 PM   #351
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post

Not equivalent, because they didn't try a Dildonian Coup, but it's not like Democrats didn't have a very fat cry in 2016 and for years afterwards:

WaPo - The Election was Stolen

Hillary Clinton - We Still Don't Know What Happened (in 2016) and Would Have Argued About it but Lacked Mechanism

Many Democrats Think 2016 Was Rigged

Lot of very short memories about.

See above re: bad winners.
You're setting up a straw man. All (most of?) the other circumstances around Trump's high crimes are absent from 2016, and I never said that claiming an election was stolen is sufficient for impeachment, but it can be included as part of the reasons for impeachment. Especially when Trump's claims of fraud, etc., have been so thoroughly brought into court - 65 times! - to no avail.
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:40 PM   #352
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,725
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Trump just announced if he is impeached a second time, Rudy Giuliane will be his attonrey.
Now I really hope it happens just for the entertainment value.
I bagsy it's held at Four Seasons Total Landscaping.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:53 PM   #353
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,725
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
It might be worth pointing out that nobody I have seen- here, in the media, or among GOP politicians- have suggested that the same "heal the divide" rationale for not impeaching Trump for inciting a mob to riot should also extend to not prosecuting the members of that mob for doing so. The guy who put his feet up on the desk in Pelosi's office, the idiot who carried off the lectern, the W. Va legislator, etc.- all these people face real consequences in the form of jail time, fines, loss of jobs, and so on.<snip>
Trump's defence is that he has nothing to do with 'low class things'. Although we could bring in his taste in furniture as exhibit A.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:56 PM   #354
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,725
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
This "heal the division" is absolute bullcrap, and we just crossed the line where we're gonna pretend differently. **** that. The ones who want to heal the division are the ones who fomented it. Give. Me. A. Break.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 01:59 PM   #355
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,773
Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Meh. If Lindsey Graham's spine was made of spaghetti, it wouldn't even be al dente.
Yup. Which is why he'd lack the courage to vote to convict, but equally I suspect he'd lack the courage to go on record as saying it's all fine...

It would show up the GOP for what it is.

I can imagine some handwringing, and statements that it wasn't the party of Nixon that they joined. Followed by them neither hindering nor helping the impeachment.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 02:03 PM   #356
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,535
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yup. Which is why he'd lack the courage to vote to convict, but equally I suspect he'd lack the courage to go on record as saying it's all fine...
Which is why for an Impeachment vote, Senators shouldn't be able to abstain or be absent.

Everyone should have to go on record as to whether or not agree with the actions of President Trump and ******* own it.

No passing the buck, no staying in the corner, no mush-mouth middle of the road passiveness.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 02:07 PM   #357
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,725
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
When it comes to criminal trials, I think The Atheist here is correct. I don't think he could be convicted, at least not based on the words of his speech. As he so often does, Trump uses weasel words, and someone else ends up holding the bag, and he denies responsibility. I was listening live to his speech, and I worried that the mob would storm the Capitol, but he didn't actually say that they ought to. It was painfully obvious to me, though, that some of the crowd would take it that way.

To get a criminal conviction, you would have to show that Donald Trump knew, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a criminal act would result from his incitement. That's a tough sell.


Impeachment is a different matter, though. There's no "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.


I also wonder if somehow failing to call off the crowd could be a criminal offense. Could not protecting the Capitol somehow be considered criminal negligence? I'm usually strongly against any attempt to take ordinary actions and twist them into a criminal charge, In this case, his actions weren't ordinary, and I doubt they were criminal, but if it could be shown that he knew criminal actions were occurring, and he believed he could stop them, and he deliberately chose not to stop them, I think that would be criminal, but again it's a tough sell. It might depend, though, on the testimony of others.

In general, I would not put money on a conviction in a criminal trial. I think the standards are too high. However, he did incite that crowd to storm the Capitol, and I don't really care if he knew he was doing it, or if he did it accidentally via incompetence. Throw the bum out. The man should not be President, and I say that with confidence that goes beyond a reasonable doubt.
As you know, Trump fired a lot of top guys in the Pentagon and inserted his flunkies. If it can be shown that he conspired to have Capitol Hill building deliberately under-policed and a deliberate delay of the National Guard - or worse still a veto - then it could be possible to convict in a criminal trial.

There is a view that key 'demonstrators; were given detailed maps as inside knowledge would be needed to even know where, say, Pelosi's office is.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 02:10 PM   #358
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,725
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Trump should be removed from office, impeached, charged and convicted of his crimes against this nation, and thrown in jail.

The only question now is whether he should get the death penalty as a traitor to this country. I oppose the death penalty, but considering this President's desire to use it, I may make an exception for this case.

That is the only question. Whether he should be sentenced to life in prison or get the death penalty.

Impeachment is not even questionable. He should be impeached and convicted because he committed impeachable offenses. Period. No politics. No political strategy. He should be impeached for his offense.

He should be convicted for his crime of sedition. He should be sentenced to prison.

The only question is whether he should get the death penalty or a life sentnce.
Bring back Devil's Island. That's what I say.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 02:10 PM   #359
Silly Green Monkey
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
 
Silly Green Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,196
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
He already is: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ex_cid=rrpromo

His support has absolutely tanked since the riot.

The only thing the world hates worse than a sore loser is a sore winner, so go Democrats!
Really. What other crimes could someone commit, even down to swiping a candy bar, should be punished with LOSS OF SUPPORT or SOCIAL STANDING? Do laws mean nothing to you?

"Don't kill her, people won't like you anymore!"
__________________
Normal is just a stereotype.
Silly Green Monkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2021, 02:13 PM   #360
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 28,215
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
You're setting up a straw man.
No, I specifically pointed out it isn't equivalent.

The point is that Hillary and many Democrats still insist she should/would have/did win in 2016 because Russians/Assange/FBI...

And they carried out violent protests, in case you forgot:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_riots

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...resident-video

https://theconversation.com/after-th...mes-next-68778

Seems to me both sides have their problems and maybe if the leaders took the lead and showed how to win gracefully, at least some Americans might respect that.

Feel free to keep going down the road to dissolving, though - I welcome our new Chinese overlords.

Try asking yourself what the best outcome for Xi, Putin and the mad Mullahs is here - an implacably opposed and divided country, or one where both sides can show at least some minimal cohesion?

(I still laugh about the massive **** fight RandFan and I had a decade ago when I said America was massively divided and he disagreed.)
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:04 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.