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Old 14th January 2019, 04:29 PM   #81
ToddH
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
As an atheist and a liberal, I don't think I could ever live in a Southern state.
I'm an atheist liberal living in rural Georgia and it's not easy.
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Old 14th January 2019, 04:34 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by ToddH View Post
I'm an atheist liberal living in rural Georgia and it's not easy.
I've got a friend who's a disabled, overweight, black, Jewish, gay, atheist living in the midwest and trying to make his living in the arts performing transgressive dirty puppet shows.

Y'all have it easy.
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Old 14th January 2019, 04:45 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I've got a friend who's a disabled, overweight, black, Jewish, gay, atheist living in the midwest and trying to make his living in the arts performing transgressive dirty puppet shows.

Marionettes or cloth?
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Old 14th January 2019, 04:57 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Marionettes or cloth?
He's actually a ventriloquist. Dude has it tough.
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Old 14th January 2019, 07:27 PM   #85
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Oh, don't know him then.
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Old 14th January 2019, 08:15 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by ToddH View Post
I'm an atheist liberal living in rural Georgia and it's not easy.
The really irritating part is that the best places financially to retire are almost all in the South or Midwest/red/church on every corner states.
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Old 14th January 2019, 08:17 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
I'm not aware of any African-British or African-Canadians or African-Australians. Odd that....
What is really crazy is when you hear Americans calling Blacks who live in the UK, African-Americans!
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Old 14th January 2019, 08:26 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
What is really crazy is when you hear Americans calling Blacks who live in the UK, African-Americans!
This is all a result of trying to find a way to refer to people of color non-offensively during and right after the Civil Rights era. Calling this group of people colored, black, negro etc never seem to pass the test.
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Old 14th January 2019, 08:33 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Yes, because as I said, these hyphenated term(s) have become such a normal part of american speech, everybody uses it.

Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, African-Americans, etc etc. Self-distinguished tribalism? Or did the labels start out with (white christian) americans using those terms to separate themselves from the 'unghastly low-class immigrants' arriving by boat every day?

Do you know anyone who refers to themself as a Muslim-New Zealander?

It seems to be a uniquely american thing from what I've observed.

Passive racism. It's just passively soft enough to fly over most peoples' heads when it first gets introduced... but it accomplishes the end goal of keeping certain demographics 'distinguishable' and 'separate' from the rest.
Not really. Immigrant waves have generally been referred to as Germans, Irish, Italians, Poles, etc.... when people could be bothered not to put ******** in front of the nationalities or didn't want to use "Kraut, Mick, Wop, Polack", respectively.

If you're from Ponylandistan, you'll likely be called a Ponylandistani through the first generation. When you start to bridge over to Ponylandian-American, you've essentially made it. Listen to the rednecks and reprobates being interviewed at Trump rallies. They're "Mexicans".... they haven't achieved "Mexican-American".

As to whether it's all racist nonsense (or xenophobic nonsense since we're talking about nationalities and not race, perse), you have to take into account that since the 60s, there have been lots of "get back to your roots" movements and Guido Buenaconti's family which strived for years to just be considered "Americans"? His grandchildren were now interested in their longer term history and culture. You have a similar phenomenon in Canada. Check out the Irish and the Scots. Use of Celtic or Gaelic was very limited up to the 80s/90s. Now you'll find all kinds of clubs in high schools and universities and even credited courses in both the cultures and the languages. My first wife has a lot of roots down in the Maritimes and there are many people who refer to themselves as Scottish(Celtic) Canadian or Irish(Gaelic) Canadian.
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Old 14th January 2019, 08:43 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
What is really crazy is when you hear Americans calling Blacks who live in the UK, African-Americans!
Not so much crazy as lazy verbal shorthand. As acbytesla notes, part of it was from the effort to find non-pejorative and non-offensive terms to refer to blacks. "Black" was not used in polite society when I was growing up, by the way.

At one point it was kinda a tossup between African-American and Afro-American. I prefer the latter, as it has connotations, to me, of roots and ancestry. Never caught on. Probably due to the association with the hairdo.

But African-American has become synonymous with black. People use it without even noticing the root(pun intended) word. It's sort of like calling your new teacher a mongoloid without knowing if they've ever even been to Ulan Bator. We understand what the term has come to mean but don't link it to its origin.
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Old 14th January 2019, 09:17 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Not so much crazy as lazy verbal shorthand. As acbytesla notes, part of it was from the effort to find non-pejorative and non-offensive terms to refer to blacks. "Black" was not used in polite society when I was growing up, by the way.

At one point it was kinda a tossup between African-American and Afro-American. I prefer the latter, as it has connotations, to me, of roots and ancestry. Never caught on. Probably due to the association with the hairdo.

But African-American has become synonymous with black. People use it without even noticing the root(pun intended) word. It's sort of like calling your new teacher a mongoloid without knowing if they've ever even been to Ulan Bator. We understand what the term has come to mean but don't link it to its origin.
I remember this well listening to the discussions in my parents house. It frustrated the hell out of my Dad. I remember that Blacks didn't like that term as their skin color actually varied a lot. They didn't care for 'coloreds'. I heard the retirt, 'yeah, what color am I'?

I don't like the whole label business at all. After all, we don't call someone a red headed American. Race is a human construct and nothing else. There is no specific difference between races. But I do understand why the labels were and may still be necessary.
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Old 14th January 2019, 09:18 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Not really. Immigrant waves have generally been referred to as Germans, Irish, Italians, Poles, etc.... when people could be bothered not to put ******** in front of the nationalities or didn't want to use "Kraut, Mick, Wop, Polack", respectively.

If you're from Ponylandistan, you'll likely be called a Ponylandistani through the first generation. When you start to bridge over to Ponylandian-American, you've essentially made it. Listen to the rednecks and reprobates being interviewed at Trump rallies. They're "Mexicans".... they haven't achieved "Mexican-American".

As to whether it's all racist nonsense (or xenophobic nonsense since we're talking about nationalities and not race, perse), you have to take into account that since the 60s, there have been lots of "get back to your roots" movements and Guido Buenaconti's family which strived for years to just be considered "Americans"? His grandchildren were now interested in their longer term history and culture. You have a similar phenomenon in Canada. Check out the Irish and the Scots. Use of Celtic or Gaelic was very limited up to the 80s/90s. Now you'll find all kinds of clubs in high schools and universities and even credited courses in both the cultures and the languages. My first wife has a lot of roots down in the Maritimes and there are many people who refer to themselves as Scottish(Celtic) Canadian or Irish(Gaelic) Canadian.

I'm only aware of French-Canadians that like to purposely distinguish themselves separately with that label. But that's a whole other can of worms with regards to tribalism.

I'm Irish/Scot and have never heard anyone refer to themselves as Irish or Scottish Canadian. We've always just been Canadian, unless someone asks about heritage. I'm 50 years old and have honestly never heard anyone ever refer to themselves in the hyphenated form.

Our neighbour is from Cape Breton (born and raised) and has never used the term (or at least not that I'm aware of). However that's not to say maybe he does use the term when he goes home for visits? I'll have to ask him now that my curiosity is piqued. Maybe it's a Maritimes thing...?

I'm definitely curious and would love to hear him explain what that's all about.

If I ever heard someone refer to themselves as a hyphen, I'd probably laugh my ass off at how ridiculous it sounds.
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Old 14th January 2019, 10:13 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
I'm only aware of French-Canadians that like to purposely distinguish themselves separately with that label. But that's a whole other can of worms with regards to tribalism.
Ah, but... are they identifying with their French from France heritage? I lived in Montreal for dix ans. They may dislike French more than they dislike English(speaking) Canadians. I think "French" is identified as "French-speaking", it's still an issue of perceptions and biases and they're emphasizing their one of the two official languages. Census Canada put in an option a few years back the your "origin" could be Canada. Quebec has the highest percentage of respondents who chose "Canadian". They also said somewhere that generally the highest choice of that option was from the former "Lower Canada".... e.g. people who can trace their roots back to the 17th and 18th centuries.

From my experience with French Canadians(Canadiens) they identify far less with their origins than they do with their language.

Quote:
I'm Irish/Scot and have never heard anyone refer to themselves as Irish or Scottish Canadian. We've always just been Canadian, unless someone asks about heritage. I'm 50 years old and have honestly never heard anyone ever refer to themselves in the hyphenated form.

Our neighbour is from Cape Breton (born and raised) and has never used the term (or at least not that I'm aware of). However that's not to say maybe he does use the term when he goes home for visits? I'll have to ask him now that my curiosity is piqued. Maybe it's a Maritimes thing...?

I'm definitely curious and would love to hear him explain what that's all about.
Just for curiosity, when/if this ever happens, PM me. I'd be curious, too. My circle included nothing but Macs (MacIntyre, MacAdam, MacGregor, and the occasional Campbell and Morrison). My former mother-in-law was the guidance counselor at the major high school in Sydney. Maybe their group was simply an offshoot, but all the then-teens (who'd now be in their 40s and 50s) were studying either the language or the culture in elective courses or in clubs.

Quote:
If I ever heard someone refer to themselves as a hyphen, I'd probably laugh my ass off at how ridiculous it sounds.
Glad to be of service. I put the "ate" on the ending but often refer to myself as "One of several American hyphenates.... Italian-American or specifically Sicilian-American on dad's side and Jewish-American on mom's."
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Old 14th January 2019, 10:15 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
He's actually a ventriloquist. Dude has it tough.
His puppets have it even tougher. They're Muslin Americans.
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Old 14th January 2019, 11:02 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
From my experience with French Canadians(Canadiens) they identify far less with their origins than they do with their language.
Yup. Most French speaking Canadians will refer to themselves as French first, and Canadian second.



Quote:
Just for curiosity, when/if this ever happens, PM me.
Will do. I have no idea when I'll see him next, most likely in the summer some time after we've all crawled out of our annnual winter hibernation.



Quote:
Glad to be of service. I put the "ate" on the ending but often refer to myself as "One of several American hyphenates.... Italian-American or specifically Sicilian-American on dad's side and Jewish-American on mom's."
Okay, I have to ask.... why? I don't understand the whole reasoning behind why someone would refer to themselves in the hyphenated form? Why the need to distinguish your heritage alongside your country of residence? It's a head-scratcher to me.
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Old Yesterday, 01:31 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Yup. Most French speaking Canadians will refer to themselves as French first, and Canadian second.



Will do. I have no idea when I'll see him next, most likely in the summer some time after we've all crawled out of our annnual winter hibernation.



Okay, I have to ask.... why? I don't understand the whole reasoning behind why someone would refer to themselves in the hyphenated form? Why the need to distinguish your heritage alongside your country of residence? It's a head-scratcher to me.
Well, I usually do it in reverse order.... Jewish-American then the other two. I'm Jewish on my mother's side and by some biblical crud or another that's how the religion is passed down. But my name is so Italian that it throws people. Plus... I know that Americans want to know. Within minutes of meeting someone socially, unless they're obvious like pale, freckled, red hair and named O'something... people genuinely enquire.

We should end this derail, I reckon.
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Old Yesterday, 10:05 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
I'm only aware of French-Canadians that like to purposely distinguish themselves separately with that label. But that's a whole other can of worms with regards to tribalism.

I'm Irish/Scot and have never heard anyone refer to themselves as Irish or Scottish Canadian. We've always just been Canadian, unless someone asks about heritage. I'm 50 years old and have honestly never heard anyone ever refer to themselves in the hyphenated form.
This good just be because if you are Canadian the default assumption is British/Irish. Unless you modify Canadian, perhaps everyone just assumes your ancestors are mostly from those islands thus making Irish/Scottish Canadian essentially redundant. I find that Asian Americans will often use "American" to mean European American which I really find off putting, and will always correct them. IE, you're just as American. I considered ending that sentence with a racist epithet, but I'm guessing most people wouldn't have found it funny.


A bit of a tangent, when you use two nouns in sequence the first is an adjective that modifies the second. So, if you are a XXXXX-American, the primary thing you are is an American, the XXXX is only there to add a bit of specificity.. Folks kvetching about hyphenated Americans always has and always will be stupid and mildly to very racist.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Well, I usually do it in reverse order.... Jewish-American then the other two. I'm Jewish on my mother's side and by some biblical crud or another that's how the religion is passed down. But my name is so Italian that it throws people. Plus... I know that Americans want to know. Within minutes of meeting someone socially, unless they're obvious like pale, freckled, red hair and named O'something... people genuinely enquire.
I understand that asking about someones ancestry is considered a micro aggression but I'm often actually very interested in it. I once met a half Japanese half Parsi American, a person can't get more interesting than that.

Quote:
We should end this derail, I reckon.
Ok, after that bit.

Edit, ethnicity is often as important in driving your culture as your nation of birth, so it can have value in describing your personality. Also, the US is a big place, we all want to be a little unique so it adds something. There was a time, prior to to the Civil War and maybe up to about WW1 when Americans would generally describe themselves as being a New Yorker or Texan or what have you, perhaps XXXX-American has sort of replace that?

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Old Yesterday, 11:00 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
His puppets have it even tougher. They're Muslin Americans.
Sigh.
I would have nomed this if you hadn't provided the link.
If you have to explain the joke and all that . . .
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Old Yesterday, 11:06 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
Sigh.
I would have nomed this if you hadn't provided the link.
If you have to explain the joke and all that . . .
I was afraid too many people would think it was just a typo.
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Old Yesterday, 01:37 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
I'm only aware of French-Canadians that like to purposely distinguish themselves separately with that label. But that's a whole other can of worms with regards to tribalism.

I'm Irish/Scot and have never heard anyone refer to themselves as Irish or Scottish Canadian. We've always just been Canadian, unless someone asks about heritage. I'm 50 years old and have honestly never heard anyone ever refer to themselves in the hyphenated form.

Our neighbour is from Cape Breton (born and raised) and has never used the term (or at least not that I'm aware of). However that's not to say maybe he does use the term when he goes home for visits? I'll have to ask him now that my curiosity is piqued. Maybe it's a Maritimes thing...?

I'm definitely curious and would love to hear him explain what that's all about.

If I ever heard someone refer to themselves as a hyphen, I'd probably laugh my ass off at how ridiculous it sounds.
This got me thinking. Here in the Vancouver area we have a quite large and diverse population of visible ethnicities. The largest populations are ethnic Chinese and those from the Indian sub-continent. It is quite rare to hear an individual referred to, or refer to themselves as, Indo-Canadian or Chinese-Canadian. On the other hand it is fairly common to hear a reference to a group or the population as a whole as the Indo- or Chinese-Canadian community. This group identification is most commonly used in a positive way when referring to inclusive large events such as Chinese New Year celebrations, or Diwali.

No real point here, except maybe to note that hyphenated identities of individuals seems to be a non-issue in this area.
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