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Old 14th January 2019, 01:25 PM   #441
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Also, Apathia, I loved your entire post. It describes very well my own experience which may seem like a contradiction to some posters. I have an antipathy to the phrase "I'll pray for you," and yet ... at times in my life I have been fairly committed to prayer, not to change the external world but to change my internal state which ends up affecting my relationship with the external world. I will quite often perceive a change in how I approach a situation. It's different than conscious reasoning, or even saying affirmations. I'm "putting it out to the universe" - but without any particular expectation that the universe is actually listening.

ETA:
Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
In fact knowing my projection isn't some individual person apart from me enhances the embracing Unity.
Thought I would quote a small bit, but I could annotate your entire post with similarities that I've noticed from my not-terribly-rigorous "spiritual" practices.

Last edited by Minoosh; 14th January 2019 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 14th January 2019, 02:35 PM   #442
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Just referring back to earlier posts, in specifying the veracity of claims of mental illness the DSM (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), was used as a source of authority. I dispute the use of a manual such as this as being some kind of ultimate truth on the subject. All technical texts are subject to review and it would be interesting to ponder where this one will go.

Is it possible the DSM is influenced by the prevailing attitudes in the society that produced it? A society that views religious conviction as a normal and healthy state of mind.

As has been observed by others, future generations of mankind may look back on this time in history and scratch their heads. "Were all these people insane?" They may ask.
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Old 14th January 2019, 02:42 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Is it possible the DSM is influenced by the prevailing attitudes in the society that produced it? A society that views religious conviction as a normal and healthy state of mind.
It would explain why the DSM is "The Word" here in the super-religious USA while the ICD 11 is more commonly used elsewhere.
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Old 14th January 2019, 03:20 PM   #444
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I didn't say that the DSM is a "source of ultimate truth". But it is the standard reference work on the subject of mental health.
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Old 14th January 2019, 03:56 PM   #445
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Holy wow. If the definition of a word isn't what you want it to be, it must be wrong and need to be rewritten; if the authoritative sources don't say what you want them to say, they must be wrong and need to be reeducated by someone who knows better like you.

That's demented.
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Old 14th January 2019, 04:11 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It would explain why the DSM is "The Word" here in the super-religious USA while the ICD 11 is more commonly used elsewhere.
Does the ICD 11 differ greatly in its definition of mental illness? I can't seem to find a direct quote.
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Old 14th January 2019, 05:20 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Oh, I imagine some of them also happen to be mentally ill ... but seeking and heeding these insights is not a sign of mental illness. At the same time these practices might still be seen as "irrational" for people who think they arrive at their beliefs strictly through the workings of their conscious, rational minds.
Throughout the history of scientific discoveries there have been "shower moments," dreams, flashes of insight. Creativity has always been more complex than turning a crank.
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Old 14th January 2019, 05:35 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Throughout the history of scientific discoveries there have been "shower moments," dreams, flashes of insight. Creativity has always been more complex than turning a crank.
The structure of the Periodic Table of Elements came to Dmitri Mendeleev in a dream.
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Old 14th January 2019, 05:47 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Also, Apathia, I loved your entire post. It describes very well my own experience which may seem like a contradiction to some posters. I have an antipathy to the phrase "I'll pray for you," and yet ... at times in my life I have been fairly committed to prayer, not to change the external world but to change my internal state which ends up affecting my relationship with the external world. I will quite often perceive a change in how I approach a situation. It's different than conscious reasoning, or even saying affirmations. I'm "putting it out to the universe" - but without any particular expectation that the universe is actually listening.

ETA:
Thought I would quote a small bit, but I could annotate your entire post with similarities that I've noticed from my not-terribly-rigorous "spiritual" practices.
Talking it out to "the universe" or just empty space creates a non-judgmental place were I get real instead of stuck in my narratives and fantasies. There was a thread way back in the JREF days where a number of people, solid atheist, admitted that they found using a paper god or an imaginary friend a helpful ritual.

So in AA admitted making up their own Higher Power. Of course since reality is always more substantial than our pathetic egos, one can always find a higher power.

Again I find that making a golden calf of religious content, a God, of this ritual confidant, leads to editorializing oneself for the God's expectations. Your "Heavenly Father" may be of the sort to say, "Quite your selfish bellyaching." Or the New Age Universe with all its ascended masters will tell you shouldn't be expressing negative feelings.

Of course mentally disturbed people talk to themselves or whatever. But this isn't the same thing. Also I keep a journal. Who the heck are you writing to when you write through your stuff in a journal? In a way it's most effective when there never will be a reader.
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Old Yesterday, 01:18 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I didn't say that the DSM is a "source of ultimate truth". But it is the standard reference work on the subject of mental health.
No, it the standard in the USA and apparently Australia. That does not make it the standard reference work, it is one of a set of standard reference works.
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Old Yesterday, 01:26 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Holy wow. If the definition of a word isn't what you want it to be, it must be wrong and need to be rewritten; if the authoritative sources don't say what you want them to say, they must be wrong and need to be reeducated by someone who knows better like you.

That's demented.
Are you unaware that "authoritive sources" change over time as knowledge improves or simply because society changes? Can you tell me happened between November 1973 and December 1973 that meant homosexuality stopped being a mental illness in the USA according to "the standard reference"? Prior to that change in the DSM should no one have criticised or doubted the accuracy of that "authoritive source" about homosexuality of itself being a mental illness?
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Old Yesterday, 01:28 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Talking it out to "the universe" or just empty space creates a non-judgmental place were I get real instead of stuck in my narratives and fantasies. There was a thread way back in the JREF days where a number of people, solid atheist, admitted that they found using a paper god or an imaginary friend a helpful ritual.



So in AA admitted making up their own Higher Power. Of course since reality is always more substantial than our pathetic egos, one can always find a higher power.



Again I find that making a golden calf of religious content, a God, of this ritual confidant, leads to editorializing oneself for the God's expectations. Your "Heavenly Father" may be of the sort to say, "Quite your selfish bellyaching." Or the New Age Universe with all its ascended masters will tell you shouldn't be expressing negative feelings.



Of course mentally disturbed people talk to themselves or whatever. But this isn't the same thing. Also I keep a journal. Who the heck are you writing to when you write through your stuff in a journal? In a way it's most effective when there never will be a reader.
Which of course isn't the point that was being made, the sympton being used was hearing a voice in your head that isn't your own and who you identify that voice being. Rather different matter.
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Old Yesterday, 06:59 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are you unaware that "authoritive sources" change over time as knowledge improves or simply because society changes? Can you tell me happened between November 1973 and December 1973 that meant homosexuality stopped being a mental illness in the USA according to "the standard reference"? Prior to that change in the DSM should no one have criticised or doubted the accuracy of that "authoritive source" about homosexuality of itself being a mental illness?
Are you aware of who else it is that trots out the argument that science is worthless because it changes and isn't saying what they want it to say?
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Old Yesterday, 08:02 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Are you aware of who else it is that trots out the argument that science is worthless because it changes and isn't saying what they want it to say?
I have hilited the word that does not belong in your post.
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Old Yesterday, 08:07 AM   #455
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Regardless there is an unavoidable base irony in basically appealing to an authoritative scientific manual of some sort to excuse away why believing in unsupported mythology isn't unscientific.
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Old Yesterday, 08:26 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Are you aware of who else it is that trots out the argument that science is worthless because it changes and isn't saying what they want it to say?
Are you aware of who else it is that trots out a bible is not to be questioned?
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Old Yesterday, 08:28 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Regardless there is an unavoidable base irony in basically appealing to an authoritative scientific manual of some sort to excuse away why believing in unsupported mythology isn't unscientific.
I'm making an even narrower criticism than that, all I am criticising is the idea that because it is socially and culturally acceptable in the USA to claim God has spoken to you in your head as a voice should not mean it isn't considered at least a possible symptom of an illness.
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Old Yesterday, 08:39 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm making an even narrower criticism than that, all I am criticising is the idea that because it is socially and culturally acceptable in the USA to claim God has spoken to you in your head as a voice should not mean it isn't considered at least a possible symptom of an illness.
It's not just the mainstream religion, tho. If someone believes in some spirit world that overlaps with our own, and they report feeling the presence of a loved one sometimes, and they feel like said loved one sometimes communicates with them in their mind, it's not automatically going to be considered a hallucination or delusion unless the person reports very specific things which indicate that it's a disorder as opposed to the result of some goofy belief system.
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Old Yesterday, 08:40 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Are you aware of who else it is that trots out the argument that science is worthless because it changes and isn't saying what they want it to say?
Why didn't you answer his question?

When people answer questions with other questions, it's usually because they know the answer to the question they themselves were asked invalidates their own argument.
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Old Yesterday, 09:32 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm making an even narrower criticism than that, all I am criticising is the idea that because it is socially and culturally acceptable in the USA to claim God has spoken to you in your head as a voice should not mean it isn't considered at least a possible symptom of an illness.
And I agree. It doesn't matter if one, a dozen, a thousand, or a million think there's a dragon in their garage, if there's no dragon it's the same problem in everything but scale.
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Old Yesterday, 09:39 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And I agree. It doesn't matter if one, a dozen, a thousand, or a million think there's a dragon in their garage, if there's no dragon it's the same problem in everything but scale.
I think it's much more likely to be psychosis from neurological malfunction if you're the only one with a garage dragon.

"Everyone" around you believing something creates psychological pressure to find things to confirm the existence of whatever it is.
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Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The structure of the Periodic Table of Elements came to Dmitri Mendeleev in a dream.
I'm not meaning to be dick, but I really would like to see a citation for this. I hope it is true I'd rather not spout it off without some back up.
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Old Yesterday, 10:05 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which of course isn't the point that was being made, the sympton being used was hearing a voice in your head that isn't your own and who you identify that voice being. Rather different matter.
As a Theist I attributed my inspirational moments as a communication from God. As an Atheist I see them as moments of my own creative process. I do not believe that I was mentally deranged when I was a Theist, anymore than I believe that I am mentally deranged now.

Another example. I write as a hobby fantasy stories. When I get stuck in the process of a story, I put it out to my "muse" "Where does it go from here?"
Wonderful ideas bubble up. An ancient Greek poet might believe hir muse to be an external being and make offerings of thanksgiving. but the essence of what took place is just as sane regardless.

I'm talking about the common garden variety "God told me," "God revealed to me in prayer." It's harmless apart from whatever the consequences of God belief. That of itself does not constitute, in my opinion, mental illness.

Having a barrage of auditory hallucinations of an entity saying "I'm God and you listen up!" is a symptom to be reckoned with. As you said, because God belief is taken as a norm in our society, someone who is experiencing an actual psychotic event may be overlooked as just being religious. There is always the possibility that when someone tells you they received an inspiration from God, that it's symptomatic of something going wrong in their head. Such auditory hallucinations would be symptomatic of a disturbance, not the belief.

God belief is a common delusion, and delusions are a mental impairment, but not necessarily a mental illness. I suppose that in some deluded totalitarian state it could be decided that religious believers were mentally ill and should be committed. I would not wish to be living in such a country anymore than to be living in a theocracy.

My opinion of what is and what isn't a mental derangement doesn't count for much. Naively speaking I'd rather avoid circles where Theists are painted with the broad brush of mental illness, or where Atheists are.
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Old Yesterday, 10:07 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'm not meaning to be dick, but I really would like to see a citation for this. I hope it is true I'd rather not spout it off without some back up.
Wiki gives a bunch of books as references, but I'm not sure how reliable any are.
One of them is this:
https://www.amazon.com/Chemistry-Rea...+CengageNOW%29

"Chemistry and Chemical Reactivity (with General ChemistryNOW CD-ROM) (Available Titles CengageNOW) "
You can go to "the look inside" feature and put "dream" in the search box and see it on page 333.
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Old Yesterday, 10:11 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I suppose that in some deluded totalitarian state it could be decided that religious believers were mentally ill and should be committed.
Pretty sure the Chinese basically do that:

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/poli...ous-extremists
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Old Yesterday, 10:12 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think it's much more likely to be psychosis from neurological malfunction if you're the only one with a garage dragon.

"Everyone" around you believing something creates psychological pressure to find things to confirm the existence of whatever it is.
And I disagree, or to be more precise it makes the entire distinction pointless.

If Ted thinks he's Napoleon and the next day a million other people suddenly start thinking they are also Napoleon, is Ted suddenly less "crazy" (either literally or colloquially.)

It's why I bristle at Christians and Muslims and Jews poking fun at Mormonism or even (to a degree) Scientology. Nothing in those later belief structures is any less logical or unreasonable or unsupported. They just have had as much time for us to get used to them.

Talking snakes and flying horses or magical seeing stones and alien ghost souls. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
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Old Yesterday, 10:27 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's not just the mainstream religion, tho. If someone believes in some spirit world that overlaps with our own, and they report feeling the presence of a loved one sometimes, and they feel like said loved one sometimes communicates with them in their mind, it's not automatically going to be considered a hallucination or delusion unless the person reports very specific things which indicate that it's a disorder as opposed to the result of some goofy belief system.
"You're crazy!" would be the totally boorish thing to say.
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Old Yesterday, 10:29 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If Ted thinks he's Napoleon and the next day a million other people suddenly start thinking they are also Napoleon, is Ted suddenly less "crazy" (either literally or colloquially.)
How did it happen that a million people suddenly decided they were Napoleon within 24 hours?

Did the CIA put LSD in the water supply and flood the airwaves with high-tech "you are Napoleon!" messaging? What's going on here?

Don't say "It doesn't matter", because how this sort of thing happens matters a lot when it comes to psychiatry and psychology.

Etiology is important, and it's not just a fancy, meaningless word here.
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Old Yesterday, 10:31 AM   #469
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Oh. Here's an example of "crazy talk" heard from the lips of many Evangelical Christians: "I've fallen in love with Jesus!"

Can we have them Baker-acted?
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Old Yesterday, 10:32 AM   #470
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Here are some mad scientists:

https://www.famousscientists.org/7-g...ade-in-dreams/
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Old Yesterday, 11:10 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Oh. Here's an example of "crazy talk" heard from the lips of many Evangelical Christians: "I've fallen in love with Jesus!"
I can't really blame them, have you seen him on crucifixes? Dude had awesome abs. St Barnabas was a lucky guy.
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Old Yesterday, 12:15 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I can't really blame them, have you seen him on crucifixes? Dude had awesome abs. St Barnabas was a lucky guy.
Jesus:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/sci.../a234/1282186/

No idea about his abs from that pic, though.
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Old Yesterday, 02:07 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's not just the mainstream religion, tho. If someone believes in some spirit world that overlaps with our own, and they report feeling the presence of a loved one sometimes, and they feel like said loved one sometimes communicates with them in their mind, it's not automatically going to be considered a hallucination or delusion unless the person reports very specific things which indicate that it's a disorder as opposed to the result of some goofy belief system.
Kellyb you are doing it again, what you describe is not what I have and am talking about!

I really don't know how clearer I can make it! I am talking about someone who claims to hear a voice in their head which isn't their own and they also claim it is god and/or Jesus that is talking or has talked to them. Not a feeling, not a sensation but a clear voice, clearly self identified (by the person) as being God. As I've said I hold it should make no difference if the person claims it is God's or Churchill's voice.
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Old Yesterday, 02:33 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No, it the standard in the USA and apparently Australia. That does not make it the standard reference work, it is one of a set of standard reference works.
Again, do the other reference works differ greatly in their definition of a mental disorder?
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Old Yesterday, 02:45 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Kellyb you are doing it again, what you describe is not what I have and am talking about!

I really don't know how clearer I can make it! I am talking about someone who claims to hear a voice in their head which isn't their own and they also claim it is god and/or Jesus that is talking or has talked to them. Not a feeling, not a sensation but a clear voice, clearly self identified (by the person) as being God. As I've said I hold it should make no difference if the person claims it is God's or Churchill's voice.
Yes, we understand you Darat. You are referring to a psychotic disorder. But you don't seem to be getting what we are saying. We're saying that a majority of religious people do not report this symptom.

Again. If someone is experiencing a genuine auditory hallucination, then that may indeed be a symptom of a mental disorder, though not necessarily. Most religious people DO NOT experience genuine auditory hallucinations. I'm not too sure how many times I need to repeat this.
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Old Today, 05:36 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Again, do the other reference works differ greatly in their definition of a mental disorder?
I couldn't tell you, but I do know from when topics have been discussed here in the past there are differences.
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Old Today, 05:40 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, we understand you Darat. You are referring to a psychotic disorder. But you don't seem to be getting what we are saying. We're saying that a majority of religious people do not report this symptom.

Again. If someone is experiencing a genuine auditory hallucination, then that may indeed be a symptom of a mental disorder, though not necessarily. Most religious people DO NOT experience genuine auditory hallucinations. I'm not too sure how many times I need to repeat this.
Nope, Kelly and Apathia have kept missing the symptom I was and am discussing.

And where have I even indicated in the slightest a number of religious folk who suffer from such a symptom? I suspect some folk are a tad paranoid (irony intended) thinking there is a gotcha or something in my posts....
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Old Today, 06:07 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The starting point of religions wasn't delusion.
Quote:
They started as attempts to make sense of the world and our place in it
. That ancient people hadn't developed scientific methods to do that in the manner we approve is hardly something we can fault them for. Being mistaken is not the same as being delusional.
However they rapidly became tools for social control.
"Do what I say or the gods small smite you"
"Burn her, god command it"
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Old Today, 07:29 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
However they rapidly became tools for social control.
"Do what I say or the gods small smite you"
"Burn her, god command it"
Indeed. But that's human nature, to try to control other humans. Personally I think when people try to use religion to control others it's an indicator that they themselves, deep down, don't really believe. If they did they wouldn't feel that need to control other people.
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