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Old Yesterday, 09:07 PM   #241
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Remember that someone with gender dysphoria might be judged, on first appearance, to be the opposite gender to the one they feel.
And usually are, at least until they undergo a social transition to the other gender.
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Old Yesterday, 09:10 PM   #242
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And I can find you an academic in the field of gender studies that you cannot assume from the fact that someone looks like a man, has a beard and wears a suit and shirt that the will prefer the he/she pronouns.
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Old Yesterday, 09:11 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I specifically asked, what is the most certain way. What do you think most people would say was the most certain way - if you had any doubt about the matter?
Asking them, of course.
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Old Yesterday, 09:12 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Remember that someone with gender dysphoria might be judged, on first appearance, to be the opposite gender to the one they feel.
And you have to know that's so rare that it would be irrelevant in my hypothetical scenario of just trying to win $1 million.
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Old Yesterday, 09:14 PM   #245
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Here, from a fourth year philosophy Phd student in the field of gender studies.

"We have to remind ourselves that although it might seem superfluous for someone who identifies as a man and has a beard and wears a shirt and tie to let others know that he prefers he/him/his pronouns, there are people who look and dress like that who do not use he/him/his and who do not identify as men. Until we all stop making assumptions about pronouns, the simple act of making an introduction will remain a social nightmare for those people who don’t fit the cisnormative mold."

So she is saying that I cannot assume that the very person to whom I would immediately hand that hat is a man.
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Old Yesterday, 09:17 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
And you have to know that's so rare that it would be irrelevant in my hypothetical scenario of just trying to win $1 million.
But it is far from rare in people who have gender dysphoria, so your criterion would not be a good one for the definition of gender, as I said, in the context of gender dysphoria, gender identity and gender studies.
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Old Yesterday, 09:22 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Here, from a fourth year philosophy Phd student in the field of gender studies.

"We have to remind ourselves that although it might seem superfluous for someone who identifies as a man and has a beard and wears a shirt and tie to let others know that he prefers he/him/his pronouns, there are people who look and dress like that who do not use he/him/his and who do not identify as men. Until we all stop making assumptions about pronouns, the simple act of making an introduction will remain a social nightmare for those people who don’t fit the cisnormative mold."

So she is saying that I cannot assume that the very person to whom I would immediately hand that hat is a man.
You're trying to win $1 million, and since 99+% of people are cis or trans and overtly signaling the preferred gender, the above quote is irrelevant.

You know this.
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Old Yesterday, 09:24 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If I have no idea of the criterion on which it will be judged, then no.



If I am guessing that the criterion would be penis or vagina, then yes, in an ordinary street I could guess with a high degree of accuracy that a person has a penis or a vagina.


Being that people are clothed in the street, upon what would you base your guess?

There’s where “what is gender,” starts.

Gender is always going to be defined in the context of the biological sex of the person. It’s inextricable; barring those rare intersex genetic anomalies. If a baby is born male, the parents and the larger society are going to have a set of expectations about how that boy is supposed to dress, act, etc. And most of the time, we don’t even have to think of “what is gender” everyone just knows because it matches biological sex. Only when the person’s internal feelings do not match their biological sex does the concept of gender become important.

So that “man on the street” contest...if you see a person dressed in men’s clothes with features that look biologically male, the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor that he is a man. But you can’t know until you ask them because you can’t see their internal gender identity, they might be that rare person who has to conform to society for a job or whatever but inside truly feels like a woman. IOW, what if it was 2013 and you saw Bruce Jenner on the street with his wife and kids? You’d feel pretty damn confident in giving him the hat, no?


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Old Yesterday, 09:25 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You're trying to win $1 million, and since 99+% of people are cis or trans and overtly signaling the preferred gender, the above quote is irrelevant.

You know this.
What I asked you to explain is how this relates to my question. I didn't ask what gender meant in terms of what the ordinary man or woman in the street uses it.

I asked specifically in the context of gender studies, gender identity, gender dysphoria. So what is the point you are making?
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Old Yesterday, 09:26 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Being that people are clothed in the street, upon what would you base your guess?

There’s where “what is gender,” starts.

Gender is always going to be defined in the context of the biological sex of the person. It’s inextricable; barring those rare intersex genetic anomalies. If a baby is born male, the parents and the larger society are going to have a set of expectations about how that boy is supposed to dress, act, etc. And most of the time, we don’t even have to think of “what is gender” everyone just knows because it matches biological sex. Only when the person’s internal feelings do not match their biological sex does the concept of gender become important.

So that “man on the street” contest...if you see a person dressed in men’s clothes with features that look biologically male, the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor that he is a man. But you can’t know until you ask them because you can’t see their internal gender identity, they might be that rare person who has to conform to society for a job or whatever but inside truly feels like a woman. IOW, what if it was 2013 and you saw Bruce Jenner on the street with his wife and kids? You’d feel pretty damn confident in giving him the hat, no?


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Again, how does this relate to my question?
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Old Yesterday, 09:26 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I didn't ask what gender meant in terms of what the ordinary man or woman in the street uses it.

I asked specifically in the context of gender studies, gender identity, gender dysphoria. So what is the point you are making?
It means the same thing in both contexts, both sentence one and sentence two.
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Old Yesterday, 09:28 PM   #252
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You are telling me the meaning of "gender" in the context of "go into that room and give me a quick count of how many men and women there are".

That is not what I asked.
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Old Yesterday, 09:29 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It means the same thing in both contexts, both sentence one and sentence two.
Really? So gender in context of "gender dysphoria", "gender identity" and "gender studies" means the gender you would assign anyone on a quick first look?
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Old Yesterday, 09:30 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You are telling me the meaning of "gender" in the context of "go into that room and give me a quick count of how many men and women there are".
Could you do that, if someone asked you to?
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Old Yesterday, 09:31 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You are telling me the meaning of "gender" in the context of "go into that room and give me a quick count of how many men and women there are".

That is not what I asked.
It sounds like it just bugs you that gender is so elusive and bordering on not existing after the plumbing aspect is removed.

There's nothing more that can be done about that.
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Old Yesterday, 09:33 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
IOW, what if it was 2013 and you saw Bruce Jenner on the street with his wife and kids? You’d feel pretty damn confident in giving him the hat, no?
Yes.
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Old Yesterday, 09:34 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Could you do that, if someone asked you to?
Again, yes, of course, but how does this relate to my question?
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Old Yesterday, 09:35 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Again, yes, of course, but how does this relate to my question?
Partly I was trying to see if you were capable of giving a straight answer. I see you've recently improved in this regard.
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Old Yesterday, 09:37 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
What I asked you to explain is how this relates to my question. I didn't ask what gender meant in terms of what the ordinary man or woman in the street uses it.



I asked specifically in the context of gender studies, gender identity, gender dysphoria. So what is the point you are making?
In those contexts, it’s exactly what I’ve been telling you in layman’s terms. You have expressed an understanding of the social cues people use to express their internal perception of their sexual identity. You have expressed understanding of how and why people might feel the need to hide their true self-perceptions from society.

Therefore, I can only conclude that you know what gender is and are either 1)just yankin’ chains or 2)trying to get us to admit that gender is a useless concept or something along those lines.




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Old Yesterday, 09:41 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Partly I was trying to see if you were capable of giving a straight answer. I see you've recently improved in this regard.
Where have I not given you a straight answer????

On the other hand, who has given me a straight answer? You guys are so completely all over the place on this.
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Old Yesterday, 09:43 PM   #261
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If you are so keen on a straight answer then answer me,

1) what does "gender" mean as used in the context of "gender dysphoria", "gender identity", "gender studies" etc?

2) How can I determine, without reference to the anatomy I was born with, determine whether I am a man or a woman?
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Old Yesterday, 09:44 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Yes.


Perfect. So you can see that gender is something that a person outwardly signals to society and that it can be fluid and or not a true representation of the way a person feels inside.

Gender studies: the study of what it means to be/feel/act male/female/non binary in a given sociocultural context.

Gender Dysphoria: the unhappiness and stress caused when your inner feelings don’t match sociocultural expectations foisted upon you by your biological plumbing

I’m sure you can do the rest.


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Old Yesterday, 09:44 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Where have I not given you a straight answer????

On the other hand, who has given me a straight answer? You guys are so completely all over the place on this.
You can re-read your own posts and look for how I might have perceived you not giving straight answers if you wish.
As for all the rest of us not giving straight answers, I don't know what to tell you. We've told you everything we know. None of us understand this any more than you do.
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Old Yesterday, 09:45 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Therefore, I can only conclude that you know what gender is and are either 1)just yankin’ chains or 2)trying to get us to admit that gender is a useless concept or something along those lines.
Sure. The reason none of you can give a straight answer to my questions is that I am yanking your chain.
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Old Yesterday, 09:45 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If you are so keen on a straight answer then answer me,



1) what does "gender" mean as used in the context of "gender dysphoria", "gender identity", "gender studies" etc?



2) How can I determine, without reference to the anatomy I was born with, determine whether I am a man or a woman?


1) answered

2)if you don’t know if you are male/female/non-binary, you might have gender dysphoria.


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Old Yesterday, 09:46 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If you are so keen on a straight answer then answer me,

1) what does "gender" mean as used in the context of "gender dysphoria", "gender identity", "gender studies" etc?
We've given you numerous definition, none of which you've found satisfactory.

You know this.
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Old Yesterday, 09:47 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It sounds like it just bugs you that gender is so elusive and bordering on not existing after the plumbing aspect is removed.

There's nothing more that can be done about that.
I would go straight for the "not existing" myself. But others can make that judgement themselves.

That doesn't bug me. That is more or less what I told my high school bullies.
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Old Yesterday, 09:48 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You can re-read your own posts and look for how I might have perceived you not giving straight answers if you wish.
As for all the rest of us not giving straight answers, I don't know what to tell you. We've told you everything we know. None of us understand this any more than you do.
I want to add my agreement to this. The best that we can do is give you accounts of your own experience, but we cannot make it so that it's easy for you to understand. Being straight cisgender is playing the game on Easy, but it's still not entirely straightforward.

I also want to add that I think you should pay attention to what luchog says. They are the person on the forum who appears to me to be the most clued up about gender issues - way moreso than I am. Take advantage of their knowledge.
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Old Yesterday, 09:49 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Sure. The reason none of you can give a straight answer to my questions is that I am yanking your chain.
I don't think you're yanking chains. I think you're genuinely confused about this. It's okay to be confused. It's a confusing subject.
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Old Yesterday, 09:52 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Sure. The reason none of you can give a straight answer to my questions is that I am yanking your chain.


It’s a distinct possibility. I am not confused about gender, even if I can’t give you a precise definition of it. I mean, I don’t know the precise definition of “quantum mechanics” and I doubt anyone could explain it to me in a way that I could go, “ah, it’s perfectly clear now!” But I also accept that it’s a thing that other people do understand and it obviously has some relevance to the real world.

We don’t even have a precise definition of what “consciousness “ is, for Christ’s sake and you want us to give you a definition for a complicated little piece of consciousness?


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Old Yesterday, 09:53 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
We've giving you numerous definition, none of which you've found satisfactory.

You know this.
Do you mean the dictionary definition? The one that relates to cultural and social roles? I didn't say it was unsatisfactory. That is more or less what I would say.

Basically gender is a cultural/social interaction.
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Old Yesterday, 09:55 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Do you mean the dictionary definition? The one that relates to cultural and social roles? I didn't say it was unsatisfactory. That is more or less what I would say.

Basically gender is a cultural/social interaction.
Yes.

I can give you a lot more interesting facts about gender that involve neurology, but they won't change the meat of the above definition.
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Old Yesterday, 10:03 PM   #273
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Do you mean the dictionary definition? The one that relates to cultural and social roles? I didn't say it was unsatisfactory. That is more or less what I would say.



Basically gender is a cultural/social interaction.


...with biology.

So if you get that much, which is just about as much as any of us gets...what exactly are you looking for? It’s a perfectly reasonable way to look at every question you’ve posed.


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Old Yesterday, 11:07 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
2) How can I determine, without reference to the anatomy I was born with, determine whether I am a man or a woman?

Without reference to the anatomy you were born with, you do not determine whether you're a man or a woman. You decide whether you're a man or woman.

It's like asking, "without reference to my position, training, or experience, how can I determine whether I am a furniture store manager or a violinist?"
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Old Today, 02:03 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Without reference to the anatomy you were born with, you do not determine whether you're a man or a woman. You decide whether you're a man or woman.

It's like asking, "without reference to my position, training, or experience, how can I determine whether I am a furniture store manager or a violinist?"
That indicates you have a choice in the matter, you don't. While there is a big social aspect in how you act and show your gender, it's not something you decide you want to be. You don't wake up and say, "I think I'll be a woman today." It's a part of your make up, just as much as what's between your legs, but it's between your ears.
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Old Today, 02:41 AM   #276
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Where have I not given you a straight answer????

On the other hand, who has given me a straight answer? You guys are so completely all over the place on this.
I have to agree here.

I'm reading this thread and I get this sense that everyone went in thinking that Robin had some hidden agenda that has to be defeated when really he (yes, I think that Robin is a he, but that's just my opinion) actually doesn't know what we mean by gender.

He's even managed to paraphrase the definitions that some have given in, what seem to me, pretty accurate ways, and yet people are still claiming that he doesn't understand their point of view.

By the way Robin, it's nice to see your posts again, I remember the same thing used to happen in to you in the philosophy section.
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Old Today, 07:14 AM   #277
luchog
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
From my OP:

It helps to read the question before supplying the answer.

I find that a bit disingenuous, since you have been provided the answer for each of those terms multiple times. Gender Identity, Gender Dysphoria, Gender Roles, and so on have all been explained to you repeatedly by multiple people. Yet you still insist you don't know what they mean.

There are only two explanations available here that I can see: One, you're just trolling, which I am fairly certain is not the case; or Two, you simply don't understand yourself what it is that you're asking, which seems to be the most likely explanation for your persistent failure to grasp the answers that you've been given.

Maybe you should try studying up on the concepts so that you can have a better grasp of what it is that you're trying to understand. I highly recommend Kate Bornstein's books.
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Old Today, 08:03 AM   #278
Myriad
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
That indicates you have a choice in the matter, you don't. While there is a big social aspect in how you act and show your gender, it's not something you decide you want to be. You don't wake up and say, "I think I'll be a woman today." It's a part of your make up, just as much as what's between your legs, but it's between your ears.

Some people do exactly that. They seem to have a choice; why don't I?
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