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Tags Ghislaine Maxwell , Jeffrey Epstein , sex trafficking

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Old 11th January 2022, 09:43 AM   #1721
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What is disgusting, or sexist, about the phrase?
So we have posters who claim to be outraged by 'slut shaming' and then they use 'virgin' as an insult. If you cannot see that is similarly sexist and degrading, then that might explain the communication problem and blindness as to the issues.
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Old 11th January 2022, 10:03 AM   #1722
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You haven't answered the question, where were Scotland Yard, the Social Services, her mother, her school teacher, her other relatives, la gendarmerie, the FBI, when all of this was going on between 14-year-old 'Carolyn' and her 38-year-old boyfriend and middle-aged part-time friend Epstein?

You claim you have the answers.

The authorities can't act unless and until someone reports a crime. And predators are skilled at identifying targets who don't have the family and social support structures that could protect them. The fact that these young girls received no help when they needed it aggravates their tragedy.

One answer is to stop treating assault against children by the likes of Epstein and Maxwell as casual "underage sex."
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Old 11th January 2022, 12:31 PM   #1723
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The authorities can't act unless and until someone reports a crime. And predators are skilled at identifying targets who don't have the family and social support structures that could protect them. The fact that these young girls received no help when they needed it aggravates their tragedy.

One answer is to stop treating assault against children by the likes of Epstein and Maxwell as casual "underage sex."

THIS!...

Assuming of course that one is even capable of distinguishing the difference between teenage girls and boys getting their rocks off, and a two old sex perverts coercing and manipulating vulnerable teenagers into the sex trade. Obviously, one of these things is not like the other, but a couple of people in this thread seem to think these two things are the same.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 11th January 2022 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 11th January 2022, 03:13 PM   #1724
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So we have posters who claim to be outraged by 'slut shaming' and then they use 'virgin' as an insult. If you cannot see that is similarly sexist and degrading, then that might explain the communication problem and blindness as to the issues.
There are male and female virgins, so how is it sexist?

Plenty of those will pontificate about sex having never experienced it, ever. How is that "degrading"?
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Old 11th January 2022, 03:24 PM   #1725
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So we have posters who claim to be outraged by 'slut shaming' and then they use 'virgin' as an insult. If you cannot see that is similarly sexist and degrading, then that might explain the communication problem and blindness as to the issues.
Have you crushed those pearls to dust yet?
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Old 11th January 2022, 03:26 PM   #1726
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
What does "ingrown virgin" even mean? I have no clue here.
Seconded. Google has not helped, offering up terrible metal songs and a variety of contradictory advice about dealing with ingrown hairs in places I don't possess.

A definition would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 11th January 2022, 03:44 PM   #1727
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Seconded. Google has not helped, offering up terrible metal songs and a variety of contradictory advice about dealing with ingrown hairs in places I don't possess.

A definition would be greatly appreciated.
From the novel Justine by Lawrence Durrell -

"If I should describe the outward structure of her life –
so disarmingly simple, graceful, self-contained –
there is a real danger that she might seem either a nun
for whom the whole range of human passions had given place
to an absorbing search for her subliminal self,
or a disappointed and ingrown virgin
who had deprived herself of the world because of some psychic instability,
or some insurmountable early wound."

Quite how it relates to the thread I'm not sure.
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Old 11th January 2022, 03:46 PM   #1728
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
What does "ingrown virgin" even mean? I have no clue here.
Seconded. Google has not helped, offering up terrible metal songs and a variety of contradictory advice about dealing with ingrown hairs in places I don't possess.

A definition would be greatly appreciated.
Somebody who has built in virginity into the very essence of their being that they regard bouncing wobbly bits together as totally disgusting behaviour which should never be contemplated let alone discussed.
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Old 11th January 2022, 03:46 PM   #1729
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Seconded. Google has not helped, offering up terrible metal songs and a variety of contradictory advice about dealing with ingrown hairs in places I don't possess.

A definition would be greatly appreciated.

Literary reference. Sounds like a recluse, someone who has isolated herself from worldly experience.
Quote:
As for Clea herself:
is it only my imagination which makes it seem so difficult to sketch her portrait?
I think of her so much –
and yet I see how in all this writing I have been shrinking from dealing directly with her.
Perhaps the difficulty lies here:
that there does not seem to be an easy correspondence between her habits and her true disposition.
If I should describe the outward structure of her life –
so disarmingly simple, graceful, self-contained –
there is a real danger that she might seem either a nun
for whom the whole range of human passions had given place
to an absorbing search for her subliminal self,
or a disappointed and ingrown virgin
who had deprived herself of the world because of some psychic instability,
or some insurmountable early wound.
https://wordsenvisioned.com/?tag=alexandria-quartet
(under "Justine")
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Old 11th January 2022, 04:00 PM   #1730
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More recently, from the NYT Best Seller "Superior Women" by Alice Adams

"As she walks across the Yard, and in and out of classrooms, walks around the Square, Megan stares at the numerous handsome men and boys, and she thinks, Why is it that no one sees how available I am? Why isn’t it clear that I don’t choose to be an ingrown virgin?

She takes to wearing more makeup, pancake and mascara, and darker lipstick, even to classes, until Lavinia tells her to stop. “Megan, it isn’t you, you look kind of scary like that, and a little cheap.” Which was very likely true."

I have seem it used in other ways (such as a woman so can't get laid but not for lack of trying), but mostly, its describes women who choose to remain virgins, e.g., a sort of voluntary spinster.
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Old 11th January 2022, 04:02 PM   #1731
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
<respctful snippage>

Quite how it relates to the thread I'm not sure.
I have no clue how this drifted so much either.
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Old 11th January 2022, 05:55 PM   #1732
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Huh.

OK, thanks folks.
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Old 12th January 2022, 05:07 AM   #1733
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The authorities can't act unless and until someone reports a crime. And predators are skilled at identifying targets who don't have the family and social support structures that could protect them. The fact that these young girls received no help when they needed it aggravates their tragedy.

One answer is to stop treating assault against children by the likes of Epstein and Maxwell as casual "underage sex."
How do you distinguish between a 'predator' and a 'teenage boy/girl' or young adult?

Is age all there is to it?
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Old 12th January 2022, 08:12 AM   #1734
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do you distinguish between a 'predator' and a 'teenage boy/girl' or young adult?

Is age all there is to it?

It's a start.

Several countries have a younger age of consent for people with a small age difference, say two years or less.
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Old 12th January 2022, 10:04 AM   #1735
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do you distinguish between a 'predator' and a 'teenage boy/girl' or young adult?

Is age all there is to it?

No, it's not all there is to it.

Age difference is one factor, certainly. As is (obviously) how underage the minor is/was.

But the other factors - and the factors which played a hugely significant role in the abuse perpetrated by Epstein and Maxwell - are related to power, influence and control (both real and implied). Epstein and Maxwell were effectively able to use wealth, and the power that comes from wealth, to induce those girls - all of whom came from relatively impoverished and uninfluential family backgrounds - to do things they'd very probably (at the very least) have been unwilling to do otherwise. And Epstein/Maxwell were also then able to use their wealth and influence to induce those girls to keep silent (wrt the authorities) about what they'd done.

I'm more than a little surprised that this was not immediately apparent to you.
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Old 13th January 2022, 11:53 PM   #1736
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Not sure whether this has been discussed yet, but comments made by one of the jurors to the press after the trial may put the verdict in jeopardy:

Potential Juror Misconduct Threatens Ghislaine Maxwell Convictions

Quote:
Ghislaine Maxwell’s convictions for sex trafficking young girls to Jeffrey Epstein may be crumbling before our eyes.

Just days after celebrating the guilty verdicts, federal prosecutors took the unusual step of asking the trial judge, Alison Nathan, to investigate whether Juror 50 committed misconduct during jury selection by failing to disclose his own abuse as a child. Maxwell’s lawyers have joined that call, arguing that the evidence of juror misconduct is so clear that Judge Nathan should throw out the convictions immediately.

Judge Nathan has not yet decided whether the allegations are serious enough to require investigation. She has given the parties until Jan 19 to submit motions and briefings.
A counter view:
Ghislaine Maxwell’s conviction can survive a juror’s disclosure, by Stephen L. Carter

Quote:
In the much-quoted words of an earlier Second Circuit decision, “The jury as we know it is supposed to reach its decisions in the mystery and security of secrecy.” One reason for the mystery, the court wrote, is to protect the jurors from retribution.

But another is to maintain the myth that verdicts are governed by impartiality and reason.
Seriously? To "to maintain the myth"?

Here, the juror of his own volition disclosed this to a reporter. I don't know if it means that the conviction should be thrown out, but it's an interesting legal question.
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Old 14th January 2022, 12:30 AM   #1737
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Not sure whether this has been discussed yet, but comments made by one of the jurors to the press after the trial may put the verdict in jeopardy:

Potential Juror Misconduct Threatens Ghislaine Maxwell Convictions



A counter view:
Ghislaine Maxwell’s conviction can survive a juror’s disclosure, by Stephen L. Carter



Seriously? To "to maintain the myth"?

Here, the juror of his own volition disclosed this to a reporter. I don't know if it means that the conviction should be thrown out, but it's an interesting legal question.

Where are you going to find 12 people to comprise jury that will be able to deliberate on ANY case without any recall to their own life experiences?

I posit that this would be an impossible task!
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:21 AM   #1738
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Where are you going to find 12 people to comprise jury that will be able to deliberate on ANY case without any recall to their own life experiences?

I posit that this would be an impossible task!
Apparently the legal issue is not that the juror shared his experience during deliberations, but that he did not answer "yes" on the pre-selection questionnaire that asked prospects whether they had ever been a victim of sexual abuse or assault. The defense didn't get a chance to excuse him. Experts seem to think the decision could go either way.
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Old 14th January 2022, 02:23 AM   #1739
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Apparently the legal issue is not that the juror shared his experience during deliberations, but that he did not answer "yes" on the pre-selection questionnaire that asked prospects whether they had ever been a victim of sexual abuse or assault. The defense didn't get a chance to excuse him. Experts seem to think the decision could go either way.
Why couldn't he have been lying during jury deliberation?
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Old 14th January 2022, 08:26 AM   #1740
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Not sure whether this has been discussed yet, but comments made by one of the jurors to the press after the trial may put the verdict in jeopardy:
See post 1621 and afterward for prior discussion. Don't recall anything significant in the discussion though.
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Old 14th January 2022, 08:33 AM   #1741
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why couldn't he have been lying during jury deliberation?
It wouldn't matter. But the juror himself is the person who publicly reported what he said during the deliberations. It's hard to believe he would lie, then call attention to it.
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Old 14th January 2022, 08:37 AM   #1742
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It wouldn't matter. But the juror himself is the person who publicly reported what he said during the deliberations. It's hard to believe he would lie, then call attention to it.
That happens though.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:28 AM   #1743
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Apparently the legal issue is not that the juror shared his experience during deliberations, but that he did not answer "yes" on the pre-selection questionnaire that asked prospects whether they had ever been a victim of sexual abuse or assault. The defense didn't get a chance to excuse him. Experts seem to think the decision could go either way.
"The constitution says a jury of my peers, not a jury of the victims of my peers!"
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:05 PM   #1744
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Looks to be too late for that. To me, this seems like his last opportunity at a meager "get ahead of this" solution.
Not necessarily his reputation.
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Old 14th January 2022, 03:47 PM   #1745
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Mod Info I have opened a new thread to discuss the civil case brought by Ms Giuffre against the Duke of York, and moved several posts from this thread to that one. In this thread, will you please stay on topic.
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Old Today, 11:06 AM   #1746
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Maxwell is showing signs of cooperating or, at least, no longer being a roadblock.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/17/us/gh...oes/index.html
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Old Today, 11:13 AM   #1747
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Maxwell is showing signs of cooperating or, at least, no longer being a roadblock.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/17/us/gh...oes/index.html
The pressure is beginning to tell.
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Old Today, 01:40 PM   #1748
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Maxwell is showing signs of cooperating or, at least, no longer being a roadblock.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/17/us/gh...oes/index.html
Can you explain? I am not quite certain what the issue is? This seems not to be a criminal issue? This just seems to be that Giuffre wants to breach an agreement with Maxwell? I assume that since in the Giuffre vs Windsor trial the agreement that Giuffre would not pursue other 'defendants' has been ruled not valid for Windsor, she now wants to identify other potential 'abusers' to sue?
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Old Today, 02:07 PM   #1749
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Can you explain? I am not quite certain what the issue is? This seems not to be a criminal issue? This just seems to be that Giuffre wants to breach an agreement with Maxwell? I assume that since in the Giuffre vs Windsor trial the agreement that Giuffre would not pursue other 'defendants' has been ruled not valid for Windsor, she now wants to identify other potential 'abusers' to sue?
It's about revealing the real the names of the eight people identified only as "John Doe" in the 2015 lawsuit. Maxwell is no longer objecting to revealing the names. At least some of those 8 people are continuing to object to their names being revealed.

There is no agreement between Giuffre and Maxwell at issue here. Giuffre, her lawyers, the judge, and presumably any relevant authorities already know these names.

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Old Today, 03:22 PM   #1750
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Can you explain? I am not quite certain what the issue is? This seems not to be a criminal issue? This just seems to be that Giuffre wants to breach an agreement with Maxwell? I assume that since in the Giuffre vs Windsor trial the agreement that Giuffre would not pursue other 'defendants' has been ruled not valid for Windsor, she now wants to identify other potential 'abusers' to sue?
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
It's about revealing the real the names of the eight people identified only as "John Doe" in the 2015 lawsuit. Maxwell is no longer objecting to revealing the names. At least some of those 8 people are continuing to object to their names being revealed.

There is no agreement between Giuffre and Maxwell at issue here. Giuffre, her lawyers, the judge, and presumably any relevant authorities already know these names.
And as a result, some of those named could be exposed to legal jeopardy!
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Old Today, 03:25 PM   #1751
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And as a result, some of those named could be exposed to legal jeopardy!
How?
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Old Today, 03:35 PM   #1752
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And as a result, some of those named could be exposed to legal jeopardy!
The same way Epstein and Maxwell were exposed... by victims making police complaints!
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Old Today, 03:38 PM   #1753
RecoveringYuppy
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The same way Epstein and Maxwell were exposed... by victims making police complaints!
You're thinking new (either new or previously unknown) victims might come forward? I suppose that's possible but it would seem to me that all the publicity around Epstein and Maxwell would have shaken all that out already.

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; Today at 03:46 PM.
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