Trans women are not women (Part 8) - Page 2

Meadmaker · 17th January 2022, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Wouldn't you agree that the vigorousness of the right wing freakout over this case does not seem to be appropriately grounded in fact?

Sort of.

I know you are very interested in the right wing mob and what they are up to. I'm not especially concerned about it. It's a big thing to you, it seems, in this and other cases, but I, personally, don't care about what a mob thinks.

However, to address your point, when I first heard about the case, it was after the Daily Wire article broke, and it was presented as "Transgender kid rapes girl in bathroom", and everyone got a particular image of what went on. We imagined a girl going in to use the bathroom, being alone with a male who was allowed to be present, and the male raping her. Begin freakout.

It turns out the real story wasn't very much like the mental image at all. So, the TRA faction claims nothing to see here, move along.

In reality, though, there is definitely something to see here, even if it isn't what the mob first thought. Instead of focusing on the mob, let's focus on what really happened. To do that, though, we need more information than we actually have. We don't know who knew that he was in the girls' bathroom. Did any staff member know it? Did he use that bathroom at any time other than the three known sexual encounters?

I haven't been able to find out the answer, although I have explained why I believe that the answer is yes.

You, and a lot of people want to say that since the rape was just a seedy version of date rape, and it started as a consensual encounter, that it has nothing to do with transgender policy. That's mostly correct. It still might enable boys and girls access to private spaces where there is no surveillance, which will result in rather predictable behavior that is generally frowned upon at school, but it would be unfair to blame the rape on that alone. So, I don't think that we can say that the rape is a consequence of the policy, and I haven't been saying that for quite a while.

What I have been saying for quite a while is not that a rape occurred because of trans inclusive policies. What I have been saying for quite a while is that, as a result of trans inclusive policies, girls at that school were sharing a bathroom with a rapist.

SuburbanTurkey · 17th January 2022, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

What I have been saying for quite a while is not that a rape occurred because of trans inclusive policies. What I have been saying for quite a while is that, as a result of trans inclusive policies, girls at that school were sharing a bathroom with a rapist.

And what I've been saying for quite a while is that this is an entirely unproven speculation.

But yes, the mob and the right wing rags like the Daily Wire dropped this story like a ton of bricks once it became clear that it wasn't the anti-trans scare story they had hoped it would be. It doesn't really matter, the damage is done. The original smear will be remembered and the correction will not. The people originally complaining about this incident have no interest in finding out what is true, only confirming their bigotries.

Meadmaker · 17th January 2022, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

And what I've been saying for quite a while is that this is an entirely unproven speculation.

I agree it's unproven.

The new Governor of Virginia ordered the new Attorney General of Virginia to conduct an investigation of Loudoun County schools yesterday. Perhaps we will learn more as a result of the investigation, or the civil cases.

SuburbanTurkey · 17th January 2022, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I agree it's unproven.

The new Governor of Virginia ordered the new Attorney General of Virginia to conduct an investigation of Loudoun County schools yesterday. Perhaps we will learn more as a result of the investigation, or the civil cases.

If I were a betting man I would say that run-of-the-mill ass-covering was happening. I wouldn't be surprised if some wrong-doing was discovered. There's a long tradition of authority figures trying to sweep bad behavior, especially those of a sexual nature, under the rug.

Seems like slim odds that they're ever going to find their trans boogieman. Hopefully they keep the focus on actual bad actors rather than going on a snipe hunt.

Louden Wilde · 17th January 2022, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Lithrael

You make it sound like they were forced to close up shop. They have an annual budget of over a million dollars, and lost their $35k grant from City of Vancouver. They also (eventually) won the case against them brought by Kimberly Nixon (where they were arguing that she was not a suitable volunteer rape crisis peer counselor, as she didn’t entirely qualify as a peer).

This is all in line with my opinion that we are all still shaking out what makes sense and it’ll eventually slope off to something reasonably equitable.

To be clear, it’s my opinion that while trans women certainly need crisis support, there is nothing at all wrong with having some shelters among many that cater to cis women only. If there was a severe shortage of accessible trans inclusive shelters it would be a different story. I do feel that losing city funding is an acceptable consequence, for now. I also feel that harassment campaigns against such shelters are utterly misplaced and deeply reprehensible.

There was some serious harassment of the center - including nailing a dead rat to the door, threatening messages written on the windows - some of this detailed here. I agree this is reprehensible behavior. And you agree that there should be female only spaces (including shelters).

Yes, males (including TW) may also need crisis centers and those should exist. But this current TRA movement is pretty clear that they want TW to be regarded as exactly the same as (actual) women - including the increasing use of the term 'female' to apply to TW.

d4m10n · 17th January 2022, 10:18 AM

Came across the following in the new book from Helen Joyce:

Quote:

Moreover, even if the analogy between racial segregation and sex separation held, it would not support gender self-ID. The solution to racial segregation was not to allow some whites to identify as black, and vice versa, but to integrate. Someone who truly believed that the physical differences between male and female people who declared the same gender identity were so trivial that only a bigot would notice them would logically have to support a unisex world.

I'd be interested in hearing a rejoinder from those who promote this analogy here.

Meadmaker · 17th January 2022, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

If I were a betting man I would say that run-of-the-mill ass-covering was happening. I wouldn't be surprised if some wrong-doing was discovered. There's a long tradition of authority figures trying to sweep bad behavior, especially those of a sexual nature, under the rug.

There's certainly that. It's just a question of what they are covering it from.

Quote:

Seems like slim odds that they're ever going to find their trans boogieman. Hopefully they keep the focus on actual bad actors rather than going on a snipe hunt.

Just to make sure we are on the same page, I'm not sure what you mean by "trans boogieman" in this case. Right now, the widely held assumption is that there are no transgender people involved in this case. I don't think anyone is looking for one. Or did you mean something else by "trans boogieman"?

SuburbanTurkey · 17th January 2022, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Just to make sure we are on the same page, I'm not sure what you mean by "trans boogieman" in this case. Right now, the widely held assumption is that there are no transgender people involved in this case. I don't think anyone is looking for one. Or did you mean something else by "trans boogieman"?

The trans boogieman in this case would be any evidence that a trans inclusive policy was at all relevant to this incident, or that a fear of anti-trans backlash played any role in any improper response to a criminal incident. Hell, a half-step towards that would be establishing that this kid was being treated as trans (allowed access to girls spaces) at all.

It's long odds for sure, especially considering the second attack seems to have no connection at all to the broader anti-trans narrative spun in the first.

Meadmaker · 17th January 2022, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The trans boogieman in this case would be any evidence that a trans inclusive policy was at all relevant to this incident, or that a fear of anti-trans backlash played any role in any improper response to a criminal incident. Hell, a half-step towards that would be establishing that this kid was being treated as trans (allowed access to girls spaces) at all.

It's long odds for sure, especially considering the second attack seems to have no connection at all to the broader anti-trans narrative spun in the first.

Ok. Then in that case, we're on the same page about what they will be looking for. I do indeed think they will be looking for a trans boogieman, as defined above.

JihadJane · 17th January 2022, 02:10 PM

'The Call Is Coming From Inside The House'

A documentary exploring the rise of transgender identity among teens.

A medical malpractice scandal comparable to the lobotomy fad.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

SuburbanTurkey · 17th January 2022, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Ok. Then in that case, we're on the same page about what they will be looking for. I do indeed think they will be looking for a trans boogieman, as defined above.

I'm always harping on "the plural of anecdote is not data", but apparently I was skipping an important step. Probably shouldn't assume these horror stories aren't total fabrications considering the clear biases of the sources.

Ziggurat · 17th January 2022, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by JihadJane

A medical malpractice scandal comparable to the lobotomy fad.

There are even more direct parallels, though not on the lobotomy scale, from other scandals that happened decades ago.

TomB · 17th January 2022, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I'm always harping on "the plural of anecdote is not data", but apparently I was skipping an important step. Probably shouldn't assume these horror stories aren't total fabrications considering the clear biases of the sources.

The highlighted is...not exactly true.

Information can be collected from anecdotes. These pieces of information are data points. The question is not if these are data points (they are), but how reliable or useful these data points are in forming or evaluating a hypothesis. Data collected from anecdotes are sometimes useful, as in the case in the article linked below:

Quote:

Let’s take a specific example. The anecdotal reports from generations of fishermen and coast watchers allow us to generate an effective estimate of the extent of the historical habitat for the Southern Resident Killer Whales (SRKWs). Those compiled anecdotes were not systematically collected for the purposes of establishing the extent of the SRKWs’ habitat but those anecdotes do just that. When numerous, independent observers all document the presence of SRKWs off Haida Gwaii it confirms that this location is part of their historical range. The assembled anecdotes, collected for totally different reasons, are data in the context of establishing these historical extents.

https://achemistinlangley.net/2019/0...cdote-is-data/

The (mis)quote you are referring to is often used to dismiss anecdotal evidence without bothering to evaluate it. Obviously, anecdotal evidence has shortcomings because it is not rigorously and intentionally collected with planning and control. But it is evidence and anecdotes do contain data.

I say misquote because:

Quote:

You may have heard the phrase the plural of anecdote is not data. It turns out that this is a misquote. The original aphorism, by the political scientist Ray Wolfinger, was just the opposite: The plural of anecdote is data.

http://blog.danwin.com/don-t-forget-...cdote-is-data/

Matthew Best · 17th January 2022, 10:44 PM

The International Olympic Committee’s new transgender framework has come under fire from medical experts who work for multiple sports federations, including World Athletics, World Triathlon and the International Cycling Union, who say it opens the door to unfair competition in female sport.

In a notable intervention, the scientists warn that IOC’s new guidance – which states there is no need for trans women to lower their testosterone to compete against natal women – ignores the science on sex, gender and performance and focuses mostly on inclusion.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...s-female-sport

lionking · 17th January 2022, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

The International Olympic Committee’s new transgender framework has come under fire from medical experts who work for multiple sports federations, including World Athletics, World Triathlon and the International Cycling Union, who say it opens the door to unfair competition in female sport.

In a notable intervention, the scientists warn that IOC’s new guidance – which states there is no need for trans women to lower their testosterone to compete against natal women – ignores the science on sex, gender and performance and focuses mostly on inclusion.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...s-female-sport

That is disgraceful. Natal women will have no chance as more and more self ID transwomen see easy fame and fortune, and no need to do anything to reduce their power and stamina.

SuburbanTurkey · 18th January 2022, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by TomB

The highlighted is...not exactly true.

Information can be collected from anecdotes. These pieces of information are data points. The question is not if these are data points (they are), but how reliable or useful these data points are in forming or evaluating a hypothesis. Data collected from anecdotes are sometimes useful, as in the case in the article linked below:

https://achemistinlangley.net/2019/0...cdote-is-data/

The (mis)quote you are referring to is often used to dismiss anecdotal evidence without bothering to evaluate it. Obviously, anecdotal evidence has shortcomings because it is not rigorously and intentionally collected with planning and control. But it is evidence and anecdotes do contain data.

I say misquote because:

http://blog.danwin.com/don-t-forget-...cdote-is-data/

The problem is that the data about these bathroom policies is very convincingly not in support of the reactionary view that trans inclusion will open the floodgates to sexual assaults and other crimes. It's not that these data-driven approaches haven't been done, it's just that conclusions are not favorable to their position.

In the absence of this data, the anti-trans side seeks out anecdotes that they can flog in an attempt to win hearts and minds to their bigoted position. They failed miserably in this case, but it's a big country and they'll almost certainly eventually find a suitable such anecdote.

d4m10n · 18th January 2022, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

In the absence of this data, the anti-trans side seeks out anecdotes that they can flog in an attempt to win hearts and minds to their bigoted position.

Why would you say it is bigoted to discriminate based on sex but not on gender identity? Seems a bit conclusory.

If we're going to sort people into two groups for the sake of using the bathrooms, I'd say it makes a certain sense to put the bepenised people into the rooms fitted with urinals.

Were you hoping to avoid sorting altogether, instead?

Meadmaker · 18th January 2022, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

The International Olympic Committee’s new transgender framework has come under fire from medical experts who work for multiple sports federations, including World Athletics, World Triathlon and the International Cycling Union, who say it opens the door to unfair competition in female sport.

In a notable intervention, the scientists warn that IOC’s new guidance – which states there is no need for trans women to lower their testosterone to compete against natal women – ignores the science on sex, gender and performance and focuses mostly on inclusion.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...s-female-sport

I only skimmed this, so I may be all wet, but when the new framework came out I thought that the key takeaway from it was that the IOC would punt these things back to the individual sporting federations instead of having a blanket policy for the Olympics.

As for testosterone, I thought that the message of the new framework was that testosterone levels alone were inadequate to ensure fairness, both because some cis-women have abnormally high testosterone levels, and because lowering testosterone levels does not completely eliminate the male advantage.

Meadmaker · 18th January 2022, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I predict a flurry of personal attacks, "cleverly" disguised.

Or crickets.

I think what we can safely rule out is a substantive response that actually addresses the points brought up.

Meadmaker · 18th January 2022, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The problem is that the data about these bathroom policies is very convincingly not in support of the reactionary view that trans inclusion will open the floodgates to sexual assaults and other crimes. It's not that these data-driven approaches haven't been done, it's just that conclusions are not favorable to their position.

In the absence of this data, the anti-trans side seeks out anecdotes that they can flog in an attempt to win hearts and minds to their bigoted position. They failed miserably in this case, but it's a big country and they'll almost certainly eventually find a suitable such anecdote.

I get what you're saying. I have previously confessed to surprise at how rare these incidents are, now that bathroom use policies have been liberalized. I expected more of them.

But, just so we are clear here, my "bigoted position" is that teenaged girls shouldn't be in a position where they are coerced into taking off their clothes in the presence of classmates who could make them pregnant. If that be bigotry, then let's make the most of it.

SuburbanTurkey · 18th January 2022, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I get what you're saying. I have previously confessed to surprise at how rare these incidents are, now that bathroom use policies have been liberalized. I expected more of them.

But, just so we are clear here, my "bigoted position" is that teenaged girls shouldn't be in a position where they are coerced into taking off their clothes in the presence of classmates who could make them pregnant. If that be bigotry, then let's make the most of it.

No, the bigoted position is to see a trans woman/girl and assume they're really a crytpo male who's primary motivation is to be a sexual predator, which is obviously what is happening in the vast majority of these bathroom freakouts. These people are so bigoted that they are inventing trans people out of thin air to fit the bill of sexual predator, as this case has demonstrated.

theprestige · 18th January 2022, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

The International Olympic Committee’s new transgender framework has come under fire from medical experts who work for multiple sports federations, including World Athletics, World Triathlon and the International Cycling Union, who say it opens the door to unfair competition in female sport.

In a notable intervention, the scientists warn that IOC’s new guidance – which states there is no need for trans women to lower their testosterone to compete against natal women – ignores the science on sex, gender and performance and focuses mostly on inclusion.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...s-female-sport

Originally Posted by lionking

That is disgraceful. Natal women will have no chance as more and more self ID transwomen see easy fame and fortune, and no need to do anything to reduce their power and stamina.

The whole idea of lowering testosterone to compete seems ethically dubious to me.

To me, the essence of athletic competition is testing your mind and body against others of similar ability and inclination. Am I really the fastest runner? Can I be the faster runner today? They may be stronger, but can I work hard enough to close that gap? Am I willing to work harder and push myself further than my peers in this?

Artificially lowering your testosterone is a major ability downgrade. You're no longer testing the limits of your mind and body. You're intentionally putting a limiter on what you can achieve. You're competing at a lower level on purpose. I find it hard to believe that a real competitive athlete would choose to compete at anything less than their full potential.

Even a golf handicap is applied to the results, not to the athletes. "If you go all-out, we expect you to finish about this far ahead of your competitor, who is also going all-out."

Lowering your testosterone is effectively not going all-out. And not going all-out, to me, betrays the spirit of athletic competition.

theprestige · 18th January 2022, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

No, the bigoted position is to see a trans woman/girl and assume they're really a crytpo male who's primary motivation is to be a sexual predator

I think the actual position is that fiat self-ID:

- doesn't provide adequate distinction between transwomen and male predators

- opens a door in the social norms for male predators, that had previously been closed

- absolutely refuses to address the above two points, instead launching into vile ad homs

You're still stuck in the same rut since Part 1 of this thread. Maybe consider this part your 8th invitation to break out of that rut and suggest a way forward that addresses the above concerns instead of demonizing anyone who raises them.

SuburbanTurkey · 18th January 2022, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I think the actual position is that fiat self-ID:

- doesn't provide adequate distinction between transwomen and male predators

- opens a door in the social norms for male predators, that had previously been closed

- absolutely refuses to address the above two points, instead launching into vile ad homs

You're still stuck in the same rut since Part 1 of this thread. Maybe consider this part your 8th invitation to break out of that rut and suggest a way forward that addresses the above concerns instead of demonizing anyone who raises them.

Good thing this is no longer something we have to speculate about. Self-ID is the law in multiple jurisdictions. Hell, a whole-ass country known as Canada has it. Seems about time for the bathroom warriors to put up some real world data rather than let their imaginations run wild.

ponderingturtle · 18th January 2022, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

As for testosterone, I thought that the message of the new framework was that testosterone levels alone were inadequate to ensure fairness, both because some cis-women have abnormally high testosterone levels,

But they don't count as women.

Meadmaker · 18th January 2022, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

No, the bigoted position is to see a trans woman/girl and assume they're really a crytpo male who's primary motivation is to be a sexual predator, which is obviously what is happening in the vast majority of these bathroom freakouts. These people are so bigoted that they are inventing trans people out of thin air to fit the bill of sexual predator, as this case has demonstrated.

One of the things that makes these conversations so difficult is that you folks (you, LJ, periodic others) keep telling us what our positions are.

With respect to private spaces, my position is that modesty is a valid, lived, condition.

For further elaboration, I refer you to four years worth of thread.

SuburbanTurkey · 18th January 2022, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

One of the things that makes these conversations so difficult is that you folks (you, LJ, periodic others) keep telling us what our positions are.

With respect to private spaces, my position is that modesty is a valid, lived, condition.

For further elaboration, I refer you to four years worth of thread.

I understand you might prefer to discuss this while excluding relevant context, in this case the obvious bigotry inflaming this culture war issue, but I'm not really interested in doing so.

Meadmaker · 18th January 2022, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

The whole idea of lowering testosterone to compete seems ethically dubious to me.

To me, the essence of athletic competition is testing your mind and body against others of similar ability and inclination. Am I really the fastest runner? Can I be the faster runner today? They may be stronger, but can I work hard enough to close that gap? Am I willing to work harder and push myself further than my peers in this?

Artificially lowering your testosterone is a major ability downgrade. You're no longer testing the limits of your mind and body. You're intentionally putting a limiter on what you can achieve. You're competing at a lower level on purpose. I find it hard to believe that a real competitive athlete would choose to compete at anything less than their full potential.

Even a golf handicap is applied to the results, not to the athletes. "If you go all-out, we expect you to finish about this far ahead of your competitor, who is also going all-out."

Lowering your testosterone is effectively not going all-out. And not going all-out, to me, betrays the spirit of athletic competition.

I'll present a counterargument, although in the end, I'll end up agreeing. Read on.

The idea is that hormone treatment is done for medical reasons. i.e. The reason for the hormone treatment is to assist in medical transition of gender/sex/something/whatever is in fashion to call it these days. The point is that the hormone treatment is a medical activity.

One consequence of that is to lower testosterone levels, which also reduces athletic ability. So, the person is still competing at full strength, but "full strength" for that person has been reduced as a result of medical treatment.

However, here's where I shift back into agreement. If that level is published and used for qualification criteria, it will inevitably influence the hormone treatment itself. In other words, people undergoing hormone treatment will choose their level of treatment based, at least in part, on the qualification criteria, as opposed to sound medical judgement on treating their condition.

This poses, in my mind, two ethical issues. The first you have identified. It gets back to exactly what you say, where people are not competing at full strength, even allowing for effects of medical treatment, but are deliberately handicapping themselves to meet an entrance criterion. The second is, in my mind, worse. Inevitably, proper medical treatment will be subordinated to sporting concerns. Instead of a dosage that the physicians believe will bring about the best possible medical outcome, physicians will fall prey to the pressure of prescribing dosages that enable athletes to meet qualification criteria.

Emily's Cat · 18th January 2022, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Came across an interesting pair of essays today.

1) Doing better in arguments about sex, gender, and trans rights

2) You Keep Using This Phrase, "Adult Human Females"

The second one is a rejoinder to the first one, and answers some of the questions posed by gender critical feminists to intersectional feminists. Both of them pose several interesting questions, several of which are likely worth discussing here.

Hmm. The second article doesn't appear to have actually answered any of the questions posed by the first. It mostly hand-waves and side-steps everything.

Emily's Cat · 18th January 2022, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Hmmm.... I seem to remember that I too drew attention to that strange (and very obviously taught/learned and institutionalised among a certain rather militant constituency) "adult human females" mantra.

Still, I continue to enjoy the spectacle of progressive, well-informed legislatures and public bodies - all of which have the inconvenient truth of containing a pretty representative proportion of females - enacting laws and policies which give proper, proportionate rights and protections to transgender people (including, yes, transmen/transboys) in a careful and watchful manner. Excellent stuff.

Meanwhile, the toxic anti-debate continues apace in these threads

The "proper, proportionate right" of males to be housed in shared cells with females as long as those males say some magic words.

Emily's Cat · 18th January 2022, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Yes, you're making the same wild leap of speculation the mob did. Congrats.

How about you educate us then. How does one tell who is a transgender person and who is not? What distinguishes between them?

Emily's Cat · 18th January 2022, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

An individual with CAIS will still be treated like a woman despite being infertile, because she is perceived to be female by all concerned.

My recollection is that individuals with CAIS are considered to be female, because their bodies are organized around the production of ova, even though they don't successfully have any ova.

Emily's Cat · 18th January 2022, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

There's a meaningful distinction between a boy gender-bending in their clothing choices and someone presenting themselves as a trans girl and requesting the appropriate recognition.

Please elaborate on that meaningful distinction. How does one distinguish between a male who is cross dressing and a male who is transgender identified?

Emily's Cat · 18th January 2022, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Can anyone think of an example of an invalid lived condition?

An old friend of mine lives with Tourette syndrome^WP. Valid or not?

Another old friend of mine lives with bipolar disorder^WP. Valid or not?

Several old friends live with various degrees of PTSD^WP. Valid or not?

If the idea of validity is going to do so much work, it would be interesting to know how far it goes.

I'll add on to your list:

A friend of mine lives with Schizophrenia. Valid or not?

Many of my friends and relatives live with Alzheimer's and/or dementia. Valid or not?

I and several of my friends and relatives live with having a female body. Valid or not?

JoeMorgue · 18th January 2022, 11:29 AM

I mean at the end of the day the best we can do is just try and be better people and make women less needing of these safe spaces.

Maybe that's the best solution.

Emily's Cat · 18th January 2022, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

And what I've been saying for quite a while is that this is an entirely unproven speculation.

But yes, the mob and the right wing rags like the Daily Wire dropped this story like a ton of bricks once it became clear that it wasn't the anti-trans scare story they had hoped it would be. It doesn't really matter, the damage is done. The original smear will be remembered and the correction will not. The people originally complaining about this incident have no interest in finding out what is true, only confirming their bigotries.

I think you need a theme song. I suggest the following:

"Ad hominem, ad hominem, poison that well!
Tarnish by association, burn them in Hell!"

Feel free to copy and paste to your heart's content, it will save you the effort of trying to come up with new ways of pretending that invective is argument.

Ziggurat · 18th January 2022, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

The idea is that hormone treatment is done for medical reasons. i.e. The reason for the hormone treatment is to assist in medical transition of gender/sex/something/whatever is in fashion to call it these days. The point is that the hormone treatment is a medical activity.

I think that there is actually a mistake here. A medical activity is not a medical reason, and the distinction is important. Hormone treatment is always a medical activity, but it isn't always for a medical reason. Hormone treatment for, say, menopause is a medical reason: get the body functioning the way it's supposed to function. Hormone treatment for transgender transitioning is not done for medical reasons, it's done for psychological reasons. It is, in general, likely doing more harm than good to the body. The justification is that the improvements to mental state are worth the costs.

I think the point can still work, though, that there are reasons outside of athletics which can determine hormone treatment levels. It's just that the reason is psychological, not medical.

Quote:

However, here's where I shift back into agreement. If that level is published and used for qualification criteria, it will inevitably influence the hormone treatment itself. In other words, people undergoing hormone treatment will choose their level of treatment based, at least in part, on the qualification criteria, as opposed to sound medical judgement on treating their condition.

I agree here. I'm sure that there are athletes who would happen to match the required hormone levels anyways, and also athletes who wouldn't change their treatment to match the requirements. But there are also going to be athletes who will tailor their treatment to match the requirements.

Quote:

Inevitably, proper medical treatment will be subordinated to sporting concerns. Instead of a dosage that the physicians believe will bring about the best possible medical outcome, physicians will fall prey to the pressure of prescribing dosages that enable athletes to meet qualification criteria.

I'm less concerned about this, precisely because I don't really think hormone treatment for transgender transition is a medical reason to begin with. The optimal medical outcome is almost always going to be no hormone treatment at all. But that criteria can be overridden by psychological concerns in some cases. Someone's desire to compete in an athletic event is just as valid a psychological motivator as someone's desire to have a certain body appearance.

But the fundamental problem remains. Biological males have massive athletic advantages in the absence of hormone treatment, and they retain a number of advantages even with hormone treatment. And while it may be beneficial to the trans athlete to let them compete, it may be detrimental to the other competitors, and their interests should not be ignored.

JoeMorgue · 18th January 2022, 11:36 AM

Can we agree on a burden of proof needed to declare another demographic "a danger" because we're all over the place here.

Ziggurat · 18th January 2022, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

I'd be interested in hearing a rejoinder from those who promote this analogy here.

I would be too, but that point has been made many times before, and it's never, ever addressed. It won't be addressed this time either.

theprestige · 18th January 2022, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I mean at the end of the day the best we can do is just try and be better people and make women less needing of these safe spaces.

Maybe that's the best solution.

Incomplete solutions are usually not the best solutions, or even good solutions.

For one thing, sex segregation in sports isn't a question of having "better people".

For another, your solution is entirely silent on how transwomen should be segregated while we wait for the day when we're all "better people".

17th January 2022, 09:15 AM	#41
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 28,706	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Wouldn't you agree that the vigorousness of the right wing freakout over this case does not seem to be appropriately grounded in fact? Sort of. I know you are very interested in the right wing mob and what they are up to. I'm not especially concerned about it. It's a big thing to you, it seems, in this and other cases, but I, personally, don't care about what a mob thinks. However, to address your point, when I first heard about the case, it was after the Daily Wire article broke, and it was presented as "Transgender kid rapes girl in bathroom", and everyone got a particular image of what went on. We imagined a girl going in to use the bathroom, being alone with a male who was allowed to be present, and the male raping her. Begin freakout. It turns out the real story wasn't very much like the mental image at all. So, the TRA faction claims nothing to see here, move along. In reality, though, there is definitely something to see here, even if it isn't what the mob first thought. Instead of focusing on the mob, let's focus on what really happened. To do that, though, we need more information than we actually have. We don't know who knew that he was in the girls' bathroom. Did any staff member know it? Did he use that bathroom at any time other than the three known sexual encounters? I haven't been able to find out the answer, although I have explained why I believe that the answer is yes. You, and a lot of people want to say that since the rape was just a seedy version of date rape, and it started as a consensual encounter, that it has nothing to do with transgender policy. That's mostly correct. It still might enable boys and girls access to private spaces where there is no surveillance, which will result in rather predictable behavior that is generally frowned upon at school, but it would be unfair to blame the rape on that alone. So, I don't think that we can say that the rape is a consequence of the policy, and I haven't been saying that for quite a while. What I have been saying for quite a while is not that a rape occurred because of trans inclusive policies. What I have been saying for quite a while is that, as a result of trans inclusive policies, girls at that school were sharing a bathroom with a rapist.
	__________________ Proud of every silver medal I've ever received. Last edited by Meadmaker; 17th January 2022 at 09:16 AM.

17th January 2022, 09:23 AM	#42
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,147	Originally Posted by Meadmaker What I have been saying for quite a while is not that a rape occurred because of trans inclusive policies. What I have been saying for quite a while is that, as a result of trans inclusive policies, girls at that school were sharing a bathroom with a rapist. And what I've been saying for quite a while is that this is an entirely unproven speculation. But yes, the mob and the right wing rags like the Daily Wire dropped this story like a ton of bricks once it became clear that it wasn't the anti-trans scare story they had hoped it would be. It doesn't really matter, the damage is done. The original smear will be remembered and the correction will not. The people originally complaining about this incident have no interest in finding out what is true, only confirming their bigotries.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 17th January 2022 at 09:28 AM.

17th January 2022, 09:32 AM	#43
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 28,706	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey And what I've been saying for quite a while is that this is an entirely unproven speculation. I agree it's unproven. The new Governor of Virginia ordered the new Attorney General of Virginia to conduct an investigation of Loudoun County schools yesterday. Perhaps we will learn more as a result of the investigation, or the civil cases.
	__________________ Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

17th January 2022, 09:35 AM	#44
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,147	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I agree it's unproven. The new Governor of Virginia ordered the new Attorney General of Virginia to conduct an investigation of Loudoun County schools yesterday. Perhaps we will learn more as a result of the investigation, or the civil cases. If I were a betting man I would say that run-of-the-mill ass-covering was happening. I wouldn't be surprised if some wrong-doing was discovered. There's a long tradition of authority figures trying to sweep bad behavior, especially those of a sexual nature, under the rug. Seems like slim odds that they're ever going to find their trans boogieman. Hopefully they keep the focus on actual bad actors rather than going on a snipe hunt.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

17th January 2022, 09:38 AM	#45
Louden Wilde Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: NYC Posts: 380	Originally Posted by Lithrael You make it sound like they were forced to close up shop. They have an annual budget of over a million dollars, and lost their $35k grant from City of Vancouver. They also (eventually) won the case against them brought by Kimberly Nixon (where they were arguing that she was not a suitable volunteer rape crisis peer counselor, as she didn’t entirely qualify as a peer). This is all in line with my opinion that we are all still shaking out what makes sense and it’ll eventually slope off to something reasonably equitable. To be clear, it’s my opinion that while trans women certainly need crisis support, there is nothing at all wrong with having some shelters among many that cater to cis women only. If there was a severe shortage of accessible trans inclusive shelters it would be a different story. I do feel that losing city funding is an acceptable consequence, for now. I also feel that harassment campaigns against such shelters are utterly misplaced and deeply reprehensible. There was some serious harassment of the center - including nailing a dead rat to the door, threatening messages written on the windows - some of this detailed here. I agree this is reprehensible behavior. And you agree that there should be female only spaces (including shelters). Yes, males (including TW) may also need crisis centers and those should exist. But this current TRA movement is pretty clear that they want TW to be regarded as exactly the same as (actual) women - including the increasing use of the term 'female' to apply to TW.
	Last edited by Louden Wilde; 17th January 2022 at 10:28 AM. Reason: clarity

17th January 2022, 10:18 AM	#46
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 8,651	The oft recurring analogy from race to sex Came across the following in the new book from Helen Joyce: Quote: Moreover, even if the analogy between racial segregation and sex separation held, it would not support gender self-ID. The solution to racial segregation was not to allow some whites to identify as black, and vice versa, but to integrate. Someone who truly believed that the physical differences between male and female people who declared the same gender identity were so trivial that only a bigot would notice them would logically have to support a unisex world. I'd be interested in hearing a rejoinder from those who promote this analogy here.
	__________________ Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it. Last edited by d4m10n; 17th January 2022 at 10:21 AM.

17th January 2022, 11:23 AM	#47
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 28,706	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey If I were a betting man I would say that run-of-the-mill ass-covering was happening. I wouldn't be surprised if some wrong-doing was discovered. There's a long tradition of authority figures trying to sweep bad behavior, especially those of a sexual nature, under the rug. There's certainly that. It's just a question of what they are covering it from. Quote: Seems like slim odds that they're ever going to find their trans boogieman. Hopefully they keep the focus on actual bad actors rather than going on a snipe hunt. Just to make sure we are on the same page, I'm not sure what you mean by "trans boogieman" in this case. Right now, the widely held assumption is that there are no transgender people involved in this case. I don't think anyone is looking for one. Or did you mean something else by "trans boogieman"?
	__________________ Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

17th January 2022, 11:29 AM	#48
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,147	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Just to make sure we are on the same page, I'm not sure what you mean by "trans boogieman" in this case. Right now, the widely held assumption is that there are no transgender people involved in this case. I don't think anyone is looking for one. Or did you mean something else by "trans boogieman"? The trans boogieman in this case would be any evidence that a trans inclusive policy was at all relevant to this incident, or that a fear of anti-trans backlash played any role in any improper response to a criminal incident. Hell, a half-step towards that would be establishing that this kid was being treated as trans (allowed access to girls spaces) at all. It's long odds for sure, especially considering the second attack seems to have no connection at all to the broader anti-trans narrative spun in the first.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

17th January 2022, 12:33 PM	#49
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 28,706	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey The trans boogieman in this case would be any evidence that a trans inclusive policy was at all relevant to this incident, or that a fear of anti-trans backlash played any role in any improper response to a criminal incident. Hell, a half-step towards that would be establishing that this kid was being treated as trans (allowed access to girls spaces) at all. It's long odds for sure, especially considering the second attack seems to have no connection at all to the broader anti-trans narrative spun in the first. Ok. Then in that case, we're on the same page about what they will be looking for. I do indeed think they will be looking for a trans boogieman, as defined above.
	__________________ Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

17th January 2022, 02:19 PM	#51
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,147	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Ok. Then in that case, we're on the same page about what they will be looking for. I do indeed think they will be looking for a trans boogieman, as defined above. I'm always harping on "the plural of anecdote is not data", but apparently I was skipping an important step. Probably shouldn't assume these horror stories aren't total fabrications considering the clear biases of the sources.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

17th January 2022, 03:30 PM	#52
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,330	Originally Posted by JihadJane A medical malpractice scandal comparable to the lobotomy fad. There are even more direct parallels, though not on the lobotomy scale, from other scandals that happened decades ago.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

17th January 2022, 05:20 PM	#53
TomB Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 1,270	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I'm always harping on "the plural of anecdote is not data", but apparently I was skipping an important step. Probably shouldn't assume these horror stories aren't total fabrications considering the clear biases of the sources. The highlighted is...not exactly true. Information can be collected from anecdotes. These pieces of information are data points. The question is not if these are data points (they are), but how reliable or useful these data points are in forming or evaluating a hypothesis. Data collected from anecdotes are sometimes useful, as in the case in the article linked below: Quote: Let’s take a specific example. The anecdotal reports from generations of fishermen and coast watchers allow us to generate an effective estimate of the extent of the historical habitat for the Southern Resident Killer Whales (SRKWs). Those compiled anecdotes were not systematically collected for the purposes of establishing the extent of the SRKWs’ habitat but those anecdotes do just that. When numerous, independent observers all document the presence of SRKWs off Haida Gwaii it confirms that this location is part of their historical range. The assembled anecdotes, collected for totally different reasons, are data in the context of establishing these historical extents. https://achemistinlangley.net/2019/0...cdote-is-data/ The (mis)quote you are referring to is often used to dismiss anecdotal evidence without bothering to evaluate it. Obviously, anecdotal evidence has shortcomings because it is not rigorously and intentionally collected with planning and control. But it is evidence and anecdotes do contain data. I say misquote because: Quote: You may have heard the phrase the plural of anecdote is not data. It turns out that this is a misquote. The original aphorism, by the political scientist Ray Wolfinger, was just the opposite: The plural of anecdote is data. http://blog.danwin.com/don-t-forget-...cdote-is-data/
TomB Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 1,270

17th January 2022, 10:44 PM	#54
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 9,212	The International Olympic Committee’s new transgender framework has come under fire from medical experts who work for multiple sports federations, including World Athletics, World Triathlon and the International Cycling Union, who say it opens the door to unfair competition in female sport. In a notable intervention, the scientists warn that IOC’s new guidance – which states there is no need for trans women to lower their testosterone to compete against natal women – ignores the science on sex, gender and performance and focuses mostly on inclusion. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...s-female-sport

17th January 2022, 11:09 PM	#55
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,334	Originally Posted by Matthew Best The International Olympic Committee’s new transgender framework has come under fire from medical experts who work for multiple sports federations, including World Athletics, World Triathlon and the International Cycling Union, who say it opens the door to unfair competition in female sport. In a notable intervention, the scientists warn that IOC’s new guidance – which states there is no need for trans women to lower their testosterone to compete against natal women – ignores the science on sex, gender and performance and focuses mostly on inclusion. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...s-female-sport That is disgraceful. Natal women will have no chance as more and more self ID transwomen see easy fame and fortune, and no need to do anything to reduce their power and stamina.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

18th January 2022, 05:32 AM	#56
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,147	Originally Posted by TomB The highlighted is...not exactly true. Information can be collected from anecdotes. These pieces of information are data points. The question is not if these are data points (they are), but how reliable or useful these data points are in forming or evaluating a hypothesis. Data collected from anecdotes are sometimes useful, as in the case in the article linked below: https://achemistinlangley.net/2019/0...cdote-is-data/ The (mis)quote you are referring to is often used to dismiss anecdotal evidence without bothering to evaluate it. Obviously, anecdotal evidence has shortcomings because it is not rigorously and intentionally collected with planning and control. But it is evidence and anecdotes do contain data. I say misquote because: http://blog.danwin.com/don-t-forget-...cdote-is-data/ The problem is that the data about these bathroom policies is very convincingly not in support of the reactionary view that trans inclusion will open the floodgates to sexual assaults and other crimes. It's not that these data-driven approaches haven't been done, it's just that conclusions are not favorable to their position. In the absence of this data, the anti-trans side seeks out anecdotes that they can flog in an attempt to win hearts and minds to their bigoted position. They failed miserably in this case, but it's a big country and they'll almost certainly eventually find a suitable such anecdote.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 18th January 2022 at 05:35 AM.

18th January 2022, 05:35 AM	#57
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 8,651	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey In the absence of this data, the anti-trans side seeks out anecdotes that they can flog in an attempt to win hearts and minds to their bigoted position. Why would you say it is bigoted to discriminate based on sex but not on gender identity? Seems a bit conclusory. If we're going to sort people into two groups for the sake of using the bathrooms, I'd say it makes a certain sense to put the bepenised people into the rooms fitted with urinals. Were you hoping to avoid sorting altogether, instead?
	__________________ Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it. Last edited by d4m10n; 18th January 2022 at 05:39 AM.

18th January 2022, 09:15 AM	#58
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 28,706	Originally Posted by Matthew Best The International Olympic Committee’s new transgender framework has come under fire from medical experts who work for multiple sports federations, including World Athletics, World Triathlon and the International Cycling Union, who say it opens the door to unfair competition in female sport. In a notable intervention, the scientists warn that IOC’s new guidance – which states there is no need for trans women to lower their testosterone to compete against natal women – ignores the science on sex, gender and performance and focuses mostly on inclusion. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...s-female-sport I only skimmed this, so I may be all wet, but when the new framework came out I thought that the key takeaway from it was that the IOC would punt these things back to the individual sporting federations instead of having a blanket policy for the Olympics. As for testosterone, I thought that the message of the new framework was that testosterone levels alone were inadequate to ensure fairness, both because some cis-women have abnormally high testosterone levels, and because lowering testosterone levels does not completely eliminate the male advantage.
	__________________ Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

18th January 2022, 09:17 AM	#59
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 28,706	Originally Posted by theprestige I predict a flurry of personal attacks, "cleverly" disguised. Or crickets. I think what we can safely rule out is a substantive response that actually addresses the points brought up.
	__________________ Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

18th January 2022, 09:22 AM	#60
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 28,706	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey The problem is that the data about these bathroom policies is very convincingly not in support of the reactionary view that trans inclusion will open the floodgates to sexual assaults and other crimes. It's not that these data-driven approaches haven't been done, it's just that conclusions are not favorable to their position. In the absence of this data, the anti-trans side seeks out anecdotes that they can flog in an attempt to win hearts and minds to their bigoted position. They failed miserably in this case, but it's a big country and they'll almost certainly eventually find a suitable such anecdote. I get what you're saying. I have previously confessed to surprise at how rare these incidents are, now that bathroom use policies have been liberalized. I expected more of them. But, just so we are clear here, my "bigoted position" is that teenaged girls shouldn't be in a position where they are coerced into taking off their clothes in the presence of classmates who could make them pregnant. If that be bigotry, then let's make the most of it.
	__________________ Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

18th January 2022, 09:24 AM	#61
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,147	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I get what you're saying. I have previously confessed to surprise at how rare these incidents are, now that bathroom use policies have been liberalized. I expected more of them. But, just so we are clear here, my "bigoted position" is that teenaged girls shouldn't be in a position where they are coerced into taking off their clothes in the presence of classmates who could make them pregnant. If that be bigotry, then let's make the most of it. No, the bigoted position is to see a trans woman/girl and assume they're really a crytpo male who's primary motivation is to be a sexual predator, which is obviously what is happening in the vast majority of these bathroom freakouts. These people are so bigoted that they are inventing trans people out of thin air to fit the bill of sexual predator, as this case has demonstrated.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

18th January 2022, 09:33 AM	#62
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 58,531	Originally Posted by Matthew Best The International Olympic Committee’s new transgender framework has come under fire from medical experts who work for multiple sports federations, including World Athletics, World Triathlon and the International Cycling Union, who say it opens the door to unfair competition in female sport. In a notable intervention, the scientists warn that IOC’s new guidance – which states there is no need for trans women to lower their testosterone to compete against natal women – ignores the science on sex, gender and performance and focuses mostly on inclusion. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...s-female-sport Originally Posted by lionking That is disgraceful. Natal women will have no chance as more and more self ID transwomen see easy fame and fortune, and no need to do anything to reduce their power and stamina. The whole idea of lowering testosterone to compete seems ethically dubious to me. To me, the essence of athletic competition is testing your mind and body against others of similar ability and inclination. Am I really the fastest runner? Can I be the faster runner today? They may be stronger, but can I work hard enough to close that gap? Am I willing to work harder and push myself further than my peers in this? Artificially lowering your testosterone is a major ability downgrade. You're no longer testing the limits of your mind and body. You're intentionally putting a limiter on what you can achieve. You're competing at a lower level on purpose. I find it hard to believe that a real competitive athlete would choose to compete at anything less than their full potential. Even a golf handicap is applied to the results, not to the athletes. "If you go all-out, we expect you to finish about this far ahead of your competitor, who is also going all-out." Lowering your testosterone is effectively not going all-out. And not going all-out, to me, betrays the spirit of athletic competition.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

18th January 2022, 09:37 AM	#63
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 58,531	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey No, the bigoted position is to see a trans woman/girl and assume they're really a crytpo male who's primary motivation is to be a sexual predator I think the actual position is that fiat self-ID: - doesn't provide adequate distinction between transwomen and male predators - opens a door in the social norms for male predators, that had previously been closed - absolutely refuses to address the above two points, instead launching into vile ad homs You're still stuck in the same rut since Part 1 of this thread. Maybe consider this part your 8th invitation to break out of that rut and suggest a way forward that addresses the above concerns instead of demonizing anyone who raises them.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

18th January 2022, 09:41 AM	#64
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,147	Originally Posted by theprestige I think the actual position is that fiat self-ID: - doesn't provide adequate distinction between transwomen and male predators - opens a door in the social norms for male predators, that had previously been closed - absolutely refuses to address the above two points, instead launching into vile ad homs You're still stuck in the same rut since Part 1 of this thread. Maybe consider this part your 8th invitation to break out of that rut and suggest a way forward that addresses the above concerns instead of demonizing anyone who raises them. Good thing this is no longer something we have to speculate about. Self-ID is the law in multiple jurisdictions. Hell, a whole-ass country known as Canada has it. Seems about time for the bathroom warriors to put up some real world data rather than let their imaginations run wild.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 18th January 2022 at 09:42 AM.

18th January 2022, 09:44 AM	#65
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,382	Originally Posted by Meadmaker As for testosterone, I thought that the message of the new framework was that testosterone levels alone were inadequate to ensure fairness, both because some cis-women have abnormally high testosterone levels, But they don't count as women.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

18th January 2022, 09:52 AM	#66
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 28,706	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey No, the bigoted position is to see a trans woman/girl and assume they're really a crytpo male who's primary motivation is to be a sexual predator, which is obviously what is happening in the vast majority of these bathroom freakouts. These people are so bigoted that they are inventing trans people out of thin air to fit the bill of sexual predator, as this case has demonstrated. One of the things that makes these conversations so difficult is that you folks (you, LJ, periodic others) keep telling us what our positions are. With respect to private spaces, my position is that modesty is a valid, lived, condition. For further elaboration, I refer you to four years worth of thread.
	__________________ Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

18th January 2022, 09:56 AM	#67
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,147	Originally Posted by Meadmaker One of the things that makes these conversations so difficult is that you folks (you, LJ, periodic others) keep telling us what our positions are. With respect to private spaces, my position is that modesty is a valid, lived, condition. For further elaboration, I refer you to four years worth of thread. I understand you might prefer to discuss this while excluding relevant context, in this case the obvious bigotry inflaming this culture war issue, but I'm not really interested in doing so.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

18th January 2022, 10:04 AM	#68
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 28,706	Originally Posted by theprestige The whole idea of lowering testosterone to compete seems ethically dubious to me. To me, the essence of athletic competition is testing your mind and body against others of similar ability and inclination. Am I really the fastest runner? Can I be the faster runner today? They may be stronger, but can I work hard enough to close that gap? Am I willing to work harder and push myself further than my peers in this? Artificially lowering your testosterone is a major ability downgrade. You're no longer testing the limits of your mind and body. You're intentionally putting a limiter on what you can achieve. You're competing at a lower level on purpose. I find it hard to believe that a real competitive athlete would choose to compete at anything less than their full potential. Even a golf handicap is applied to the results, not to the athletes. "If you go all-out, we expect you to finish about this far ahead of your competitor, who is also going all-out." Lowering your testosterone is effectively not going all-out. And not going all-out, to me, betrays the spirit of athletic competition. I'll present a counterargument, although in the end, I'll end up agreeing. Read on. The idea is that hormone treatment is done for medical reasons. i.e. The reason for the hormone treatment is to assist in medical transition of gender/sex/something/whatever is in fashion to call it these days. The point is that the hormone treatment is a medical activity. One consequence of that is to lower testosterone levels, which also reduces athletic ability. So, the person is still competing at full strength, but "full strength" for that person has been reduced as a result of medical treatment. However, here's where I shift back into agreement. If that level is published and used for qualification criteria, it will inevitably influence the hormone treatment itself. In other words, people undergoing hormone treatment will choose their level of treatment based, at least in part, on the qualification criteria, as opposed to sound medical judgement on treating their condition. This poses, in my mind, two ethical issues. The first you have identified. It gets back to exactly what you say, where people are not competing at full strength, even allowing for effects of medical treatment, but are deliberately handicapping themselves to meet an entrance criterion. The second is, in my mind, worse. Inevitably, proper medical treatment will be subordinated to sporting concerns. Instead of a dosage that the physicians believe will bring about the best possible medical outcome, physicians will fall prey to the pressure of prescribing dosages that enable athletes to meet qualification criteria.
	__________________ Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

18th January 2022, 11:09 AM	#69
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 17,813	Originally Posted by d4m10n Came across an interesting pair of essays today. 1) Doing better in arguments about sex, gender, and trans rights 2) You Keep Using This Phrase, "Adult Human Females" The second one is a rejoinder to the first one, and answers some of the questions posed by gender critical feminists to intersectional feminists. Both of them pose several interesting questions, several of which are likely worth discussing here. Hmm. The second article doesn't appear to have actually answered any of the questions posed by the first. It mostly hand-waves and side-steps everything.
	__________________ The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian

18th January 2022, 11:10 AM	#70
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 17,813	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Hmmm.... I seem to remember that I too drew attention to that strange (and very obviously taught/learned and institutionalised among a certain rather militant constituency) "adult human females" mantra. Still, I continue to enjoy the spectacle of progressive, well-informed legislatures and public bodies - all of which have the inconvenient truth of containing a pretty representative proportion of females - enacting laws and policies which give proper, proportionate rights and protections to transgender people (including, yes, transmen/transboys) in a careful and watchful manner. Excellent stuff. Meanwhile, the toxic anti-debate continues apace in these threads The "proper, proportionate right" of males to be housed in shared cells with females as long as those males say some magic words.
	__________________ The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian

18th January 2022, 11:12 AM	#71
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 17,813	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Yes, you're making the same wild leap of speculation the mob did. Congrats. How about you educate us then. How does one tell who is a transgender person and who is not? What distinguishes between them?
	__________________ The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian

18th January 2022, 11:17 AM	#72
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 17,813	Originally Posted by d4m10n An individual with CAIS will still be treated like a woman despite being infertile, because she is perceived to be female by all concerned. My recollection is that individuals with CAIS are considered to be female, because their bodies are organized around the production of ova, even though they don't successfully have any ova.
	__________________ The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian

18th January 2022, 11:23 AM	#73
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 17,813	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey There's a meaningful distinction between a boy gender-bending in their clothing choices and someone presenting themselves as a trans girl and requesting the appropriate recognition. Please elaborate on that meaningful distinction. How does one distinguish between a male who is cross dressing and a male who is transgender identified?
	__________________ The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian

18th January 2022, 11:25 AM	#74
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 17,813	Originally Posted by d4m10n Can anyone think of an example of an invalid lived condition? An old friend of mine lives with Tourette syndrome^WP. Valid or not? Another old friend of mine lives with bipolar disorder^WP. Valid or not? Several old friends live with various degrees of PTSD^WP. Valid or not? If the idea of validity is going to do so much work, it would be interesting to know how far it goes. I'll add on to your list: A friend of mine lives with Schizophrenia. Valid or not? Many of my friends and relatives live with Alzheimer's and/or dementia. Valid or not? I and several of my friends and relatives live with having a female body. Valid or not?
	__________________ The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian

18th January 2022, 11:29 AM	#75
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 39,368	I mean at the end of the day the best we can do is just try and be better people and make women less needing of these safe spaces. Maybe that's the best solution.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

18th January 2022, 11:32 AM	#76
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 17,813	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey And what I've been saying for quite a while is that this is an entirely unproven speculation. But yes, the mob and the right wing rags like the Daily Wire dropped this story like a ton of bricks once it became clear that it wasn't the anti-trans scare story they had hoped it would be. It doesn't really matter, the damage is done. The original smear will be remembered and the correction will not. The people originally complaining about this incident have no interest in finding out what is true, only confirming their bigotries. I think you need a theme song. I suggest the following: "Ad hominem, ad hominem, poison that well! Tarnish by association, burn them in Hell!" Feel free to copy and paste to your heart's content, it will save you the effort of trying to come up with new ways of pretending that invective is argument.
	__________________ The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian