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Old Today, 09:15 AM   #41
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Wouldn't you agree that the vigorousness of the right wing freakout over this case does not seem to be appropriately grounded in fact?
Sort of.

I know you are very interested in the right wing mob and what they are up to. I'm not especially concerned about it. It's a big thing to you, it seems, in this and other cases, but I, personally, don't care about what a mob thinks.

However, to address your point, when I first heard about the case, it was after the Daily Wire article broke, and it was presented as "Transgender kid rapes girl in bathroom", and everyone got a particular image of what went on. We imagined a girl going in to use the bathroom, being alone with a male who was allowed to be present, and the male raping her. Begin freakout.

It turns out the real story wasn't very much like the mental image at all. So, the TRA faction claims nothing to see here, move along.

In reality, though, there is definitely something to see here, even if it isn't what the mob first thought. Instead of focusing on the mob, let's focus on what really happened. To do that, though, we need more information than we actually have. We don't know who knew that he was in the girls' bathroom. Did any staff member know it? Did he use that bathroom at any time other than the three known sexual encounters?

I haven't been able to find out the answer, although I have explained why I believe that the answer is yes.

You, and a lot of people want to say that since the rape was just a seedy version of date rape, and it started as a consensual encounter, that it has nothing to do with transgender policy. That's mostly correct. It still might enable boys and girls access to private spaces where there is no surveillance, which will result in rather predictable behavior that is generally frowned upon at school, but it would be unfair to blame the rape on that alone. So, I don't think that we can say that the rape is a consequence of the policy, and I haven't been saying that for quite a while.

What I have been saying for quite a while is not that a rape occurred because of trans inclusive policies. What I have been saying for quite a while is that, as a result of trans inclusive policies, girls at that school were sharing a bathroom with a rapist.
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Old Today, 09:23 AM   #42
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
What I have been saying for quite a while is not that a rape occurred because of trans inclusive policies. What I have been saying for quite a while is that, as a result of trans inclusive policies, girls at that school were sharing a bathroom with a rapist.
And what I've been saying for quite a while is that this is an entirely unproven speculation.

But yes, the mob and the right wing rags like the Daily Wire dropped this story like a ton of bricks once it became clear that it wasn't the anti-trans scare story they had hoped it would be. It doesn't really matter, the damage is done. The original smear will be remembered and the correction will not. The people originally complaining about this incident have no interest in finding out what is true, only confirming their bigotries.
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Old Today, 09:32 AM   #43
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
And what I've been saying for quite a while is that this is an entirely unproven speculation.
I agree it's unproven.

The new Governor of Virginia ordered the new Attorney General of Virginia to conduct an investigation of Loudoun County schools yesterday. Perhaps we will learn more as a result of the investigation, or the civil cases.
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Old Today, 09:35 AM   #44
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I agree it's unproven.

The new Governor of Virginia ordered the new Attorney General of Virginia to conduct an investigation of Loudoun County schools yesterday. Perhaps we will learn more as a result of the investigation, or the civil cases.
If I were a betting man I would say that run-of-the-mill ass-covering was happening. I wouldn't be surprised if some wrong-doing was discovered. There's a long tradition of authority figures trying to sweep bad behavior, especially those of a sexual nature, under the rug.

Seems like slim odds that they're ever going to find their trans boogieman. Hopefully they keep the focus on actual bad actors rather than going on a snipe hunt.
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Old Today, 09:38 AM   #45
Louden Wilde
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
You make it sound like they were forced to close up shop. They have an annual budget of over a million dollars, and lost their $35k grant from City of Vancouver. They also (eventually) won the case against them brought by Kimberly Nixon (where they were arguing that she was not a suitable volunteer rape crisis peer counselor, as she didn’t entirely qualify as a peer).

This is all in line with my opinion that we are all still shaking out what makes sense and it’ll eventually slope off to something reasonably equitable.

To be clear, it’s my opinion that while trans women certainly need crisis support, there is nothing at all wrong with having some shelters among many that cater to cis women only. If there was a severe shortage of accessible trans inclusive shelters it would be a different story. I do feel that losing city funding is an acceptable consequence, for now. I also feel that harassment campaigns against such shelters are utterly misplaced and deeply reprehensible.

There was some serious harassment of the center - including nailing a dead rat to the door, threatening messages written on the windows - some of this detailed here. I agree this is reprehensible behavior. And you agree that there should be female only spaces (including shelters).

Yes, males (including TW) may also need crisis centers and those should exist. But this current TRA movement is pretty clear that they want TW to be regarded as exactly the same as (actual) women - including the increasing use of the term 'female' to apply to TW.

Last edited by Louden Wilde; Today at 10:28 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old Today, 10:18 AM   #46
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The oft recurring analogy from race to sex

Came across the following in the new book from Helen Joyce:
Quote:
Moreover, even if the analogy between racial segregation and sex separation held, it would not support gender self-ID. The solution to racial segregation was not to allow some whites to identify as black, and vice versa, but to integrate. Someone who truly believed that the physical differences between male and female people who declared the same gender identity were so trivial that only a bigot would notice them would logically have to support a unisex world.
I'd be interested in hearing a rejoinder from those who promote this analogy here.
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Old Today, 11:23 AM   #47
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If I were a betting man I would say that run-of-the-mill ass-covering was happening. I wouldn't be surprised if some wrong-doing was discovered. There's a long tradition of authority figures trying to sweep bad behavior, especially those of a sexual nature, under the rug.
There's certainly that. It's just a question of what they are covering it from.

Quote:
Seems like slim odds that they're ever going to find their trans boogieman. Hopefully they keep the focus on actual bad actors rather than going on a snipe hunt.
Just to make sure we are on the same page, I'm not sure what you mean by "trans boogieman" in this case. Right now, the widely held assumption is that there are no transgender people involved in this case. I don't think anyone is looking for one. Or did you mean something else by "trans boogieman"?
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Old Today, 11:29 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Just to make sure we are on the same page, I'm not sure what you mean by "trans boogieman" in this case. Right now, the widely held assumption is that there are no transgender people involved in this case. I don't think anyone is looking for one. Or did you mean something else by "trans boogieman"?
The trans boogieman in this case would be any evidence that a trans inclusive policy was at all relevant to this incident, or that a fear of anti-trans backlash played any role in any improper response to a criminal incident. Hell, a half-step towards that would be establishing that this kid was being treated as trans (allowed access to girls spaces) at all.

It's long odds for sure, especially considering the second attack seems to have no connection at all to the broader anti-trans narrative spun in the first.
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Old Today, 12:33 PM   #49
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The trans boogieman in this case would be any evidence that a trans inclusive policy was at all relevant to this incident, or that a fear of anti-trans backlash played any role in any improper response to a criminal incident. Hell, a half-step towards that would be establishing that this kid was being treated as trans (allowed access to girls spaces) at all.

It's long odds for sure, especially considering the second attack seems to have no connection at all to the broader anti-trans narrative spun in the first.
Ok. Then in that case, we're on the same page about what they will be looking for. I do indeed think they will be looking for a trans boogieman, as defined above.
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Old Today, 02:10 PM   #50
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'The Call Is Coming From Inside The House'

A documentary exploring the rise of transgender identity among teens.

A medical malpractice scandal comparable to the lobotomy fad.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old Today, 02:19 PM   #51
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Ok. Then in that case, we're on the same page about what they will be looking for. I do indeed think they will be looking for a trans boogieman, as defined above.
I'm always harping on "the plural of anecdote is not data", but apparently I was skipping an important step. Probably shouldn't assume these horror stories aren't total fabrications considering the clear biases of the sources.
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Old Today, 03:30 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
A medical malpractice scandal comparable to the lobotomy fad.
There are even more direct parallels, though not on the lobotomy scale, from other scandals that happened decades ago.
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Old Today, 05:20 PM   #53
TomB
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm always harping on "the plural of anecdote is not data", but apparently I was skipping an important step. Probably shouldn't assume these horror stories aren't total fabrications considering the clear biases of the sources.
The highlighted is...not exactly true.

Information can be collected from anecdotes. These pieces of information are data points. The question is not if these are data points (they are), but how reliable or useful these data points are in forming or evaluating a hypothesis. Data collected from anecdotes are sometimes useful, as in the case in the article linked below:
Quote:
Let’s take a specific example. The anecdotal reports from generations of fishermen and coast watchers allow us to generate an effective estimate of the extent of the historical habitat for the Southern Resident Killer Whales (SRKWs). Those compiled anecdotes were not systematically collected for the purposes of establishing the extent of the SRKWs’ habitat but those anecdotes do just that. When numerous, independent observers all document the presence of SRKWs off Haida Gwaii it confirms that this location is part of their historical range. The assembled anecdotes, collected for totally different reasons, are data in the context of establishing these historical extents.
https://achemistinlangley.net/2019/0...cdote-is-data/

The (mis)quote you are referring to is often used to dismiss anecdotal evidence without bothering to evaluate it. Obviously, anecdotal evidence has shortcomings because it is not rigorously and intentionally collected with planning and control. But it is evidence and anecdotes do contain data.

I say misquote because:
Quote:
You may have heard the phrase the plural of anecdote is not data. It turns out that this is a misquote. The original aphorism, by the political scientist Ray Wolfinger, was just the opposite: The plural of anecdote is data.
http://blog.danwin.com/don-t-forget-...cdote-is-data/
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