ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Naval incidents

Reply
Old 25th August 2017, 10:51 AM   #441
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,500
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Assuming it's true, the Navy may not want to announce the hack just yet.
Maybe the server releasing the announcement got hacked and the IT guy on duty hasn't noticed yet?
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 10:57 AM   #442
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,266
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Assuming it's true, the Navy may not want to announce the hack just yet.
Assuming it's true, does the Navy have to re-hire all the top dudes that they fired?

"You guys are back on the job, but now we have to go fire the guys who are supposed to prevent remote electronic hacking of our systems."
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 01:15 PM   #443
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,830
Maybe they were all just binge watching Game of Thrones.

I've heard its really good.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 01:15 PM   #444
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22,243
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Assuming it's true, does the Navy have to re-hire all the top dudes that they fired?
Actually, I don't think they fired anybody.

Besides, I doubt that it will come down to a single factor that absolves everyone of blame. If you believe fake news, there's a lot more to these events than just relying on the radar set.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 01:22 PM   #445
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 18,716
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It seems that the opposite is happening. Other ships are crashing into the Navy because the Navy isn't getting out of the way.

In the case of the Fitzgerald what evidence we have available suggests it was the Navy that put itself in the way.

It was, quite literally and by definition, the "Give Way" vessel.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 01:29 PM   #446
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 18,716
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Assuming it's true, does the Navy have to re-hire all the top dudes that they fired?

"You guys are back on the job, but now we have to go fire the guys who are supposed to prevent remote electronic hacking of our systems."

No one has been fired ... yet.

They have been relieved of their duties on the ships involved.

There's no telling what will happen until after the inquiry is over. From what I have read of other collision incidents it isn't all that unusual for some or all of the personnel involved to be found not at fault or only guilty of minor failures of responsibility, and returned to service.

Prospects for promotion will be much dimmer, of course, no matter what the final disposition.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 01:34 PM   #447
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,266
So then Aucoin wasn't fired?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 01:37 PM   #448
Delphic Oracle
Graduate Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,797
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
<snip>

3- The Navy and the nation owe it to our sailors to investigate their deaths [hilite]swiftly and thoroughly.[/HILITE They can have no more fitting memorial than the prompt discovery and correction of any deficiency in training, equipment, or command that contributed to their tragic loss.
If naval investigations are anything like NTSB ones, you don't get both options, only one or the other.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 01:44 PM   #449
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 18,716
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
So then Aucoin wasn't fired?

No.

He was relieved of his duties as commander of the 7th Fleet.

He could quite easily have been assigned other duties, or even put back in charge of the 7th after an inquiry, but it seems that he was already scheduled for retirement, so that is probably unlikely.
Quote:
U.S. Navy Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin, commander of the U.S. 7th Fleet, has been relieved of his duties following two fatal ship collisions within two months under his command, U.S. officials announced Wednesday.
Aucoin was expected to retire in a few weeks, but Adm. Scott Swift, commander of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, relieved him prematurely “due to a loss of confidence in his ability to command," the Navy said in a short statement Wednesday. He will be replaced immediately by Rear Adm. Phil Sawyer, who was already confirmed to take over the position following Aucoin's exit.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 01:46 PM   #450
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,266
Ok it's my bad, because I had been equating relieved of duty with being fired.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 01:55 PM   #451
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 36,883
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Ok it's my bad, because I had been equating relieved of duty with being fired.
If it is before your tour of duty in that post is over,90% of the time it is. Once in a great while someone is relieved of duty for medical reasons or because the service needs his particular skills in another post, but most of the time being relieved of duty early is a huge black mark on your record,often a career ending one.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 09:45 PM   #452
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 36,385
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's the question we all expect the Navy to investigate and answer. One speculation is that the collisions were caused by cyber-warfare interference with the ship's sensors. If the alarms were silenced, or the displays were inaccurate, a fatigued crew operating at night might not realize they were in jeopardy until it was too late.

I've heard (but cannot find any reference now) that after 9/11 all Navy ships switched to a more demanding watch schedule, which is not really sustainable and leads to decreased crew performance. I don't know if this is true, but it's easy to imagine that tired sailors on watch would be unable to sustain alertness, and would rely heavily on their instruments to warn them if the ship entered a risky situation.

So perhaps the speculation about cyber-warfare is correct. Perhaps for the past few years sailors have been able to get some much-needed sleep on their watches, because their instruments were reliable. But now that the instruments themselves cannot be trusted, these accidents are starting to happen. That's a charitable possibility. Another is that lax discipline on the bridge has been masked for years by sensors that pick up the slack. Now that the sensors aren't covering for the sailors anymore... But who knows? It may also just be that Naval training and discipline is on a cyclical down-swing, and has reached an inflection point where more accidents happen. Hopefully it will start to swing back up again soon.
Fake News!

All of this discussion can be traced back to one professional fearmonger (who sells cyber-security products).

On the level of probability with "Philippine Captain Turned Around to Try to Sink the SS Fitzgerald" equaling 1 and "Rain in Hong Kong in August" equaling 10, I'd give this a 1.75.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele
"Chicken **** Poster!"
Help! We're being attacked by sea lions!
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2017, 01:09 AM   #453
Toke
Godless Socialist
 
Toke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Denmark
Posts: 8,141
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
That seems to defeat the purpose of having an officer on the bridge.
Yes, kind of my point.
__________________
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

Toke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2017, 02:27 AM   #454
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
 
Klimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 11,507
Interesting article by former Navy officer:
With the USS McCain collision, even Navy tech can’t overcome human shortcomings
__________________
ModBorg

Engine: Ibalgin 400
Klimax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2017, 05:03 AM   #455
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22,243
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Fake News!

All of this discussion can be traced back to one professional fearmonger (who sells cyber-security products).

On the level of probability with "Philippine Captain Turned Around to Try to Sink the SS Fitzgerald" equaling 1 and "Rain in Hong Kong in August" equaling 10, I'd give this a 1.75.
There you are, then.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2017, 09:55 AM   #456
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 12,877
Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
The vessel tracking video from that article is especially interesting. Once again the Navy ship's vessel tracking system was turned off. Why on earth can't the at least turn it on when traversing such a busy area?
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 05:27 AM   #457
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 18,751
Quote:
WASHINGTON – The majority of ships operating in the U.S. Navy’s Seventh Fleet, where two destroyers have been involved in fatal collisions since June, weren’t certified to conduct basic operations at sea related to war-fighting, according to U.S. Navy records.

As of late June, eight of the 11 cruisers and destroyers in the Seventh Fleet, and their crew members, weren’t certified by the U.S. Navy to conduct “mobility seamanship,” or basic steering of the ship, according to U.S. Navy records provided to two House Armed Services subcommittees.

The Navy also said that seven of those ships had expired training certification in the areas of cruise missile defense and surface warfare, which test a crew’s ability to defend a ship or to conduct attacks.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/07...ification.html
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 06:15 AM   #458
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,530
Someone somewhere has been cutting corners.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 07:25 AM   #459
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22,243
Thanks, Obama!

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2017, 11:55 AM   #460
Octavo
Master Poster
 
Octavo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South Africa
Posts: 2,857
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Thanks, Obama!

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
Lol, ok that was funny.
__________________
This signature is intended to imitate people.
Octavo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2017, 06:31 PM   #461
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22,243
Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
Lol, ok that was funny.
It's funny because it's true. Trump hasn't been in power nearly long enough to donk up the fleet this bad. The Pacific Pivot was Obama's idea. this deterioration happened on his watch.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2017, 07:53 PM   #462
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 36,385
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's funny because it's true. Trump hasn't been in power nearly long enough to donk up the fleet this bad. The Pacific Pivot was Obama's idea. this deterioration happened on his watch.
And it's right there in his order. "We will pivot to the Pacific because of increasing tensions in that area and I want you to pay no nevah mind to training and safety and normal procedures, m'kay."

Perhaps you could provide a link to that? I seem to have misplaced mine. Or do you think that maybe the micro is the responsibility of the Pentagon. Sorta like Trump ordering a ship to Korea that didn't head for Korea.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele
"Chicken **** Poster!"
Help! We're being attacked by sea lions!
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 04:44 AM   #463
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 18,716
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
And it's right there in his order. "We will pivot to the Pacific because of increasing tensions in that area and I want you to pay no nevah mind to training and safety and normal procedures, m'kay."

Perhaps you could provide a link to that? I seem to have misplaced mine. Or do you think that maybe the micro is the responsibility of the Pentagon. Sorta like Trump ordering a ship to Korea that didn't head for Korea.

More like saying he had a ship on its way to Korea while it was busily heading away from Korea.

Just a minor error of direction. Anyone could make that mistake.

Towards vs. away from What's the big diff? Just more petty nitpicking of Trump by haters.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 01:02 PM   #464
Jungle Jim
Muse
 
Jungle Jim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 927
US Navy ships in deadly collisions had dismal training records: http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/11/politi...red/index.html
Jungle Jim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 01:10 PM   #465
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 12,877
I suspect that given a choice between spending money on expensive hardware and spending it on people, including training, hardware wins every time. Not just the Navy, but the whole US military. Perhaps all militaries.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 03:11 PM   #466
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,028
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I suspect that given a choice between spending money on expensive hardware and spending it on people, including training, hardware wins every time. Not just the Navy, but the whole US military. Perhaps all militaries.
I bet their Trans Sensitivity Training is up to snuff.
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2017, 03:56 AM   #467
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,344
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I suspect that given a choice between spending money on expensive hardware and spending it on people, including training, hardware wins every time. Not just the Navy, but the whole US military. Perhaps all militaries.
Which was why I never doubt that many important things are under funded in the military but that does not mean they need a bigger budget, or that a bigger budget would even mean money would trickle down to where it is needed.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:56 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.