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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:18 PM   #3161
Craig B
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Wrong again. I've repeatedly explained that the reason negotiations are stalled is due to unreasonable EU preconditions. Our negotiating position is that we can't agree to pay until we've negotiated what we'll get in return - and the EU preconditions don't allow that. I've further explained that I don't believe the EU are currently prepared to negotiate in good faith and therefore I think we should walk away from the farcical "negotiations".
Yes you have said these things; people have pointed out the absurdity of your project, as regards the Irish border for example; and you have made no coherent response.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 10:13 PM   #3162
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Wrong again. I've repeatedly explained that the reason negotiations are stalled is due to unreasonable EU preconditions. Our negotiating position is that we can't agree to pay until we've negotiated what we'll get in return - and the EU preconditions don't allow that. I've further explained that I don't believe the EU are currently prepared to negotiate in good faith and therefore I think we should walk away from the farcical "negotiations".
You're not getting anything in return for payment, they're trying to negotiate what you owe. Once the UK's obligations are settled, the rights of EU and UK citizens in each other's territories and the Irish border are agreed upon, that's when the Article 50 negotiations are finished and discussion of a FTA can begin.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 10:27 PM   #3163
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Wrong again. I've repeatedly explained that the reason negotiations are stalled is due to unreasonable EU preconditions. Our negotiating position is that we can't agree to pay until we've negotiated what we'll get in return - and the EU preconditions don't allow that. I've further explained that I don't believe the EU are currently prepared to negotiate in good faith and therefore I think we should walk away from the farcical "negotiations".
What you'll get in return for paying for already existing obligations and liabilities (the existence or exact value of which can be debated aside)?

You get to leave the EU.

As I am more and more often saying about things in my own country: "This is what you voted for, isn't it?"
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Old Yesterday, 01:10 AM   #3164
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Yes you have said these things; people have pointed out the absurdity of your project, as regards the Irish border for example; and you have made no coherent response.
On the contrary. I've made very coherent responses. You may not agree with me but that doesn't make my responses incoherent.
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Old Yesterday, 01:35 AM   #3165
Craig B
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
On the contrary. I've made very coherent responses. You may not agree with me but that doesn't make my responses incoherent.
The Border in Ireland - in the past, you will recall, has been involved in decades of bloodshed, as well as smuggling and other offences on a vast scale. So it's a really serious issue. And this is your "very coherent" contribution to our understanding of this subject.
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Illegal entrants can be tracked by means other than hard borders - via housing, jobs, benefit claims, bank transactions, and so on.

Smugglers exist even with hard borders, and for those that build the borders it's a compromise between the harm caused by the smugglers versus the harm caused by the borders.
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Old Yesterday, 01:47 AM   #3166
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The Border in Ireland - in the past, you will recall, has been involved in decades of bloodshed, as well as smuggling and other offences on a vast scale. So it's a really serious issue. And this is your "very coherent" contribution to our understanding of this subject.
Selective quote mining as usual. You can do better than that.

The part you quoted was only a follow-up to my main point that no one wants a hard border, so why is one required? Also, how can we work out what kind of border structures (if any) are needed until we know what they're required to do - and that requires a trade agreement.

None of the posters in this thread have yet addressed these points - they prefer to throw insults around - I suppose that requires less thought and effort.
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Old Yesterday, 01:55 AM   #3167
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Selective quote mining as usual. You can do better than that.

The part you quoted was only a follow-up to my main point that no one wants a hard border, so why is one required? Also, how can we work out what kind of border structures (if any) are needed until we know what they're required to do - and that requires a trade agreement.

None of the posters in this thread have yet addressed these points - they prefer to throw insults around - I suppose that requires less thought and effort.
I addressed your points, without throwing any insults, and you ignored me.

I'll try again - customs checks are required by international law between any two countries who are not in a customs union together. That answers both your questions - the WTO require it, and the only thing the EU needs to know at this stage to discuss the Irish border is whether or not the UK is staying in the customs union.

Now, would you care to tell us your suggestion as to what the UK government's position should be.
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Old Yesterday, 02:05 AM   #3168
Craig B
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Selective quote mining as usual. You can do better than that.

The part you quoted was only a follow-up to my main point that no one wants a hard border, so why is one required? Also, how can we work out what kind of border structures (if any) are needed until we know what they're required to do - and that requires a trade agreement.

None of the posters in this thread have yet addressed these points - they prefer to throw insults around - I suppose that requires less thought and effort.
Posters have addressed these points. This is worth stating again:

Once the single market arrangements and free movement end there will be a requirement for border restrictions and formalities. How will these requirements be met? The Border in Ireland is hugely sensitive, indeed it is steeped in blood. How will this be addressed? May's NI allies are extremist bigots. How will their prejudices be appeased without creating resentment and indignation in other sections of society?
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Old Yesterday, 02:19 AM   #3169
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I'll try again - customs checks are required by international law between any two countries who are not in a customs union together.
But not necessarily at the border eg Switzerland.
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Old Yesterday, 02:35 AM   #3170
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
But not necessarily at the border eg Switzerland.
I'm sure if Ceptimus has a suggestion about where else to put them, he will make it.
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Old Yesterday, 02:55 AM   #3171
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Selective quote mining as usual. You can do better than that.

The part you quoted was only a follow-up to my main point that no one wants a hard border, so why is one required? Also, how can we work out what kind of border structures (if any) are needed until we know what they're required to do - and that requires a trade agreement.

None of the posters in this thread have yet addressed these points - they prefer to throw insults around - I suppose that requires less thought and effort.
Because you want to control the movement of people between the EU and the UK. Ireland is part of the EU. If you don't control *that* border, what's to stop goods being shipped into Dublin, then transported to Belfast, and shipped to the rest of the UK?

Presumably you don't want a hard border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, so that means that you don't want a hard border between the EU and the UK whilst also wanting a hard border between the EU and the UK.
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Old Yesterday, 03:25 AM   #3172
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I'm sure if Ceptimus has a suggestion about where else to put them, he will make it.
If he suggests a "Border" at the mainland ports and airports receiving persons and goods from NI, he will encounter extreme hostility from the Orange factions whom May is assiduously courting and lavishly bribing.

Imagine the indignation of these people. Travellers, alien by nation and faith, can proceed unimpeded from Dublin even unto the very Walls of Londonderry, while UK citizens desiring to journey from Glasgow to Belfast on the Twelfth of July will be required to cross a de facto frontier! Is this any way to treat loyal subjects of Her Majesty?
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Old Yesterday, 04:56 AM   #3173
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You say, "Then it follows..." But it doesn't follow. By your logic whenever, say, the USA changes its laws or regulations then every country that has a trade agreement with the USA would also have to change its own laws to match. That sometimes does happen of course, but not always. And, of course, the EU already manages to maintain trade agreements with countries such as Canada and those trade agreements don't fall apart when either the EU or Canada change their regulations.

If Canada can maintain a trade deal with the EU, why won't the UK be able to do the same? Hint: it will.
They can maintain a trade deal by making sure everything the sell into the EU complies with "EU laws, regulations and rules" and so will we. I'm stunned you don't understand that basic fact.
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Old Yesterday, 04:58 AM   #3174
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Just clarify for me, in your stretched analogy, from whom is the EU renting its home?
The fact that you would rather pick apart the metaphor rather than accept the idea says so much....
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Old Yesterday, 05:12 AM   #3175
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The problem is that the politicians need to get out of the way and let the bureaucrats do their work. The decision to leave has been made, we are leaving. We now need real detail work.

Problem is our "top" politicians have never had to do any actual work themselves it's all other people who do their work so they have no idea what is actually involved in us leaving the EU.

Which is why there aren't new customs facilities being built (never mind not even being planned) now, why we aren't expanding the border service and training the thousands of new staff now. And so on.

The road outside Glasgow that is currently being constructed with a 27.67123% contribution by the EU, due to be paid 1st April 2028? What is happening to its funding? That is the level of detail that should be happening by now. (That by the way was a made up example!)

It should by now all be about the detail.

But of course it isn't for the Tories. For the Tories Brexit is -as it always has been - about who gets to be PM, sod the country.
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Old Yesterday, 05:55 AM   #3176
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Because you want to control the movement of people between the EU and the UK. Ireland is part of the EU. If you don't control *that* border, what's to stop goods being shipped into Dublin, then transported to Belfast, and shipped to the rest of the UK?

Presumably you don't want a hard border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, so that means that you don't want a hard border between the EU and the UK whilst also wanting a hard border between the EU and the UK.
That's where creative fudge comes in.

Why have a hard border when you can have "security checks" or "mobile customs checks" which just mostly happen on ferry routes between Northern Ireland and the UK?

The UK can probably risk not having border posts on the land border in Ireland, as the cost of enforcement (financial and political) outweighs the benefits. However it's a much bigger risk for the EU.
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Old Yesterday, 06:27 AM   #3177
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
That's where creative fudge comes in.

Why have a hard border when you can have "security checks" or "mobile customs checks" which just mostly happen on ferry routes between Northern Ireland and the UK?

The UK can probably risk not having border posts on the land border in Ireland, as the cost of enforcement (financial and political) outweighs the benefits. However it's a much bigger risk for the EU.
There will then be unimpeded migration into NI? Will Loyal Ulster be content with that? Xenophobia is no less prevalent in NI than in the rest of the UK.

What about materials moved into NI from third countries via the Republic, and subsequently transported to the mainland UK by sea or air? These will be checked on board? May I say the "creative fudgers" on the planes and ferries are likely to have a heavy workload.
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Old Yesterday, 07:09 AM   #3178
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Wrong again. I've repeatedly explained that the reason negotiations are stalled is due to unreasonable EU preconditions.
No you've simply repeated the same untruth time and again.
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Old Yesterday, 07:39 AM   #3179
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And the reason no actual progress has been made on the UK side is that the Tories know there is no deal that will satisfy everyone in their party. And they are all craven gits who are willing to put a knife in the back but never have the courage to be front and centre and accept responsibility for their actions.
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Old Yesterday, 10:02 AM   #3180
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not very surprising analysis, but still worth reading

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/c..._campaign=1490
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Old Yesterday, 12:02 PM   #3181
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
<snip>

Illegal entrants can be tracked by means other than hard borders - via housing, jobs, benefit claims, bank transactions, and so on.

<snip>

Interesting.

This would explain why there is no problem finding all of the illegal immigrants in the U.S.?
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Old Yesterday, 01:14 PM   #3182
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Interesting.

This would explain why there is no problem finding all of the illegal immigrants in the U.S.?
Ceptimus appears to not quite understand how the black economy works.
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Old Yesterday, 01:15 PM   #3183
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This would explain why there is no problem finding all of the illegal immigrants in the U.S.?
Does the US have a centralised Government system for collecting payroll taxes at source in real-time?
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Old Yesterday, 01:21 PM   #3184
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Ceptimus appears to not quite understand how the black economy works.
Does he actually understand anything Brexit related?
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Old Yesterday, 07:58 PM   #3185
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Does the US have a centralised Government system for collecting payroll taxes at source in real-time?
"Real time" is a misnomer, it's just a more frequent reporting period.

The same exact data exists in every U.S. business. I can look up my payroll data in real time at both of my current jobs through online HR portals. The reporting period depends on how the business is registered. Some report yearly, semi-annually, quarterly, or monthly.

Yes, some undocumented workers collect pay under false documents, but the vast majority are paid under the table, not on an official payroll. On paper, it would probably look like a service fee paid to a temp agency or private contractors (no I-9s, no 1040s, cash for services provided).
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Old Today, 02:27 AM   #3186
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If Northern Ireland can have an open EU border with no custom checks then Scotland will demand one too. Cat meet pigeons.
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Old Today, 02:41 AM   #3187
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If Northern Ireland can have an open EU border with no custom checks then Scotland will demand one too. Cat meet pigeons.
Goose meet sauce.
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Old Today, 03:09 AM   #3188
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Surely, gander meet sauce ?
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Old Today, 04:00 AM   #3189
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Surely, gander meet sauce ?
Yes indeed. The goose has already been cooked.
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Old Today, 05:22 AM   #3190
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If Northern Ireland can have an open EU border with no custom checks then Scotland will demand one too. Cat meet pigeons.
Sympathetic as I would be to that demand, the two situations are not the same. Scotland doesn't have a land border with an EU country,isn't covered by an intergovernmental treaty involving an EU country's government as co-guarantor, and doesn't have a growing minority in its midst who want to join another EU country.
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Old Today, 07:04 AM   #3191
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Sympathetic as I would be to that demand, the two situations are not the same. Scotland doesn't have a land border with an EU country,isn't covered by an intergovernmental treaty involving an EU country's government as co-guarantor, and doesn't have a growing minority in its midst who want to join another EU country.
None of which would matter if the argument is that if one country can have such an arrangement then it's possible for another country to have the arrangement.

The UK government position so far seems to have been that it's not possible for Scotland to have such an arrangement - if they are required to change their position to 'it's possible, but we aren't going to let you have it' then the cat is introduced to the pigeons.
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Old Today, 07:53 AM   #3192
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
None of which would matter if the argument is that if one country can have such an arrangement then it's possible for another country to have the arrangement.

The UK government position so far seems to have been that it's not possible for Scotland to have such an arrangement - if they are required to change their position to 'it's possible, but we aren't going to let you have it' then the cat is introduced to the pigeons.
Yes and I would be entirely sympathetic to that cat, (the cat being Scotland). However, the fact remains that any half competent politician could make the case that NI is different to the rest of the UK in that it has a land border, the GFA, etc etc and therefore will have a different arrangement with the EU post Brexit.

This government won't do it because they don't have anyone half competent on their front bench, apart from Phillip Hammond and he's outnumbered.
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Old Today, 09:46 AM   #3193
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Yes and I would be entirely sympathetic to that cat, (the cat being Scotland). However, the fact remains that any half competent politician could make the case that NI is different to the rest of the UK in that it has a land border, the GFA, etc etc and therefore will have a different arrangement with the EU post Brexit.

This government won't do it because they don't have anyone half competent on their front bench, apart from Phillip Hammond and he's outnumbered.
The SNP won't want to make that case. The government might want to make that case, but it'd be a stretch to call them competent politicians.
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Old Today, 11:06 AM   #3194
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"Real time" is a misnomer, it's just a more frequent reporting period.
Nope, under PAYE RTI in the UK, reports need to submitted before payments are made to employees.
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Old Today, 11:19 AM   #3195
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Nope, under PAYE RTI in the UK, reports need to submitted before payments are made to employees.
I don't get paid until Friday but right now I could tell you exactly how much it will be and how much is taken out in various taxes.

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Old Today, 11:23 AM   #3196
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
not very surprising analysis, but still worth reading

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/c..._campaign=1490
Significant more for the messenger than the message.
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Old Today, 11:33 AM   #3197
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Significant more for the messenger than the message.
I'm not so sure, the Mail on Sunday has been Remain since before the referendum.

I have previously linked to a Eurosceptic blogger who has been pointing out for months how much of a fiasco the UK government's approach is.

Can I recall the website, or find my posts? You don't need to be psychic to know the answer to this.
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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