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Tags police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 8th November 2019, 03:35 AM   #1441
Darat
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Another "resource officer" that shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near children..:

https://wsvn.com/news/local/broward-...een-on-ground/

Full surveillance video:

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I AGREE


At 0:39 the student can be seen lightly tapping (not kicking) the officer on the back of his leg. Some time passes before the officer grabs the student in a choke hold and throws her to the floor before planting a knee in her back and cuffing her. After pulling her up by the cuffs the officer pushes her into a wall.

Reportedly Cross Creek School is a school for children with emotional or behavioral disabilities.

Again the concept of "resource officer" must be brought into question. Who thought this was a good idea?
Yeah kid shouldn't have tapped the police officer, and probably was giving lip all the time BUT there is simply no excuse for that kid of violent response from an adult, never mind a trained police officer.
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Old 8th November 2019, 03:58 AM   #1442
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It's my expectation that police officers act like human beings. For example, if a driver doesn't want to show their paperwork until the officer answers the very reasonable and common question of "Why have you stopped me?," then the officer should answer the question unless the answer is reasonably believed to create more danger (e.g., the officer has stopped someone because s/he believes the driver is a murder suspect).
What you mean to say is, then, that not only did you fail to realize that the clip does not show the beginning of the exchange - wherein the officer presumably would have approached the vehicle alone and asked for license and registration - but you somehow failed to read any of the discussion of the fact in the preceding posts, notably including the one you originally quoted with this drivel; and consequently you don't have the slightest miserable clue as to what the officer did or did not explain previously to the driver.
Originally Posted by Babbylonian
In other words, if the situation escalated because the officer chose not to answer the question, then the officer is entirely at fault for everything that followed. While the officer is not required to answer the question and according to the law has the right to get the paperwork without condition, if the choice is between answering the question (which may result in compliance) and moving to a violent arrest process then the correct thing to do is to answer the question.
No, the officer's seeming failure to answer the question does NOT absolve the driver from crimes they have committed in any regard whatsoever. By the time the clip begins, the driver has already committed an arrestable offense (not presenting license and registration); the public is expected to know that they are required to do this before obtaining a driver's license in the first place.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 8th November 2019 at 04:22 AM.
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Old 8th November 2019, 04:03 AM   #1443
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Ah yes. "Resisting arrest". The "serious" crime a perfectly innocent person can be guilty of just by asking a police officer a question.
Asking a question is not resisting arrest; failure to exit a vehicle when legally required to do so, failure to open a vehicle door when legally required to do so, and/or physically interfering with lawful restraints performed in the process of an arrest most definitely are.

In the same vein that a "perfectly innocent" driver who fails to brake for a kid crossing the road when legally required to do so (perhaps because he's busy asking a question) is guilty of manslaughter; or worse.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 8th November 2019 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 8th November 2019, 04:31 AM   #1444
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Asking a question is not resisting arrest; failure to exit a vehicle when legally required to do so, failure to open a vehicle door when legally required to do so, and/or physically interfering with lawful restraints performed in the process of an arrest most definitely are.
I am somewhat in agreement with you, however I would very much like to know why the LEO would not answer the question. I understand he's not obliged to, but it does, at this point, seem like policing with his penis and he just on a 'respect my authority' kick.

Absent a good reason for not answering the question this becomes technically correct but actually ******* awful policing. Yes, he's not obliged to answer the question but if we're talking about 'keeping the peace' the method of least friction is to answer the question and move on. Where such things remain within the confines of their duties and privilidges and are consequent with the law, the path of least friction is probably best.


I think (and I'm open to being persuaded otherwise), at this point, that the LEO wanted to throw his weight around and found a technically allowed but bloody awful solution that allowed him to do that. (And, to be a little outrageous, I bet Mrs LEO felt the full force of that in some way later on that day)

I don't think "technically correct" is a good standard for law enforcement.



Quote:
In the same vein that a "perfectly innocent" driver who fails to brake for a kid crossing the road when legally required to do so (perhaps because he's busy asking a question) is guilty of manslaughter; or worse.
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Old 8th November 2019, 05:39 AM   #1445
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
What you mean to say is...
Nope.
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Old 8th November 2019, 06:36 AM   #1446
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Nope.
Sometimes I wish I could show this much restraint when dealing with a ....... well........... let's just say a challenging post.
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Old 8th November 2019, 09:00 AM   #1447
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Sometimes I wish I could show this much restraint when dealing with a ....... well........... let's just say a challenging post.
As any of us, I occasionally have my good days.
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Old 8th November 2019, 03:39 PM   #1448
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Absent a good reason for not answering the question this becomes technically correct but actually ******* awful policing. Yes, he's not obliged to answer the question but if we're talking about 'keeping the peace' the method of least friction is to answer the question and move on. Where such things remain within the confines of their duties and privilidges and are consequent with the law, the path of least friction is probably best.

I think (and I'm open to being persuaded otherwise), at this point, that the LEO wanted to throw his weight around and found a technically allowed but bloody awful solution that allowed him to do that. (And, to be a little outrageous, I bet Mrs LEO felt the full force of that in some way later on that day)
That's certainly a plausible and common scenario. And I agree that that would be crap policing. However, from the article you linked:

Originally Posted by https://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/2017/05/aclu_criticizes_taylor_police.html
The group [ACLU] wrote that after a "protracted" debate about Jones' rights, the officer called for backup.

When backup arrived, the officer told Jones failure to provide ID is an offense that justifies arrest and ordered him out of the car. When Jones again refused, the officer checked the door, which was locked, and then grabbed the top of the cracked driver's-side window.
So the officer claims to have already informed the driver how and why he was under arrest; aka "answered the question". These statements, if true, would make me very considerably less sympathetic to the driver. It is no doubt also common for police officers to say...exaggerate... their communications with disgruntled arrestees (erroneously claim the driver had already been informed of the whyfores), but I don't see anything that clearly corroborates such a thing from the clip. And the driver's legal representatives don't seem to be challenging the claims.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 8th November 2019 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 9th November 2019, 12:44 AM   #1449
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Hard to say, since such statistics aren't all that available.

Many police departments don't keep such statistics, and the ones that do are often reluctant to share them. Mandates for reporting enacted by Congress are simply ignored.

The most reliable numbers have come from news organizations like The Guardian or the Washington Post, who have tried to assemble data by painstakingly reviewing local news reports.

Here's one article on the subject of data collection by official sources by the Florida Times-Union that gives a fairly good description of the state of statistics gathering.

It doesn't paint a pretty picture.
The lack of statistics is a feature not a bug- especially when it comes to police shootings.

We do have in depth reports on Ferguson and Baltimore, and Ferguson actually was being than the mean for racial disparity in Missouri.
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Old 9th November 2019, 01:02 PM   #1450
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Seems as if "stop resisting!" is a bit of a stock phrase.

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/stat...36905346568192
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Old 9th November 2019, 01:42 PM   #1451
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Seems as if "stop resisting!" is a bit of a stock phrase.

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/stat...36905346568192
This **** has to be stopped. Do any of the non-"the police are never wrong" posters have any ideas of a course of action?

There's way too many videos like this and who knows how many not recorded. The fact that the police department released this footage thinking it would vindicate them shows how far up their own asses they are.

Our taxes are paying for people to brutalize us over petty BS with no consequences. Surely there's a better way to spend that money.
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Old 9th November 2019, 02:45 PM   #1452
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Seems as if "stop resisting!" is a bit of a stock phrase.

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/stat...36905346568192
I'll bet dollars to doughnuts her dog was treated far more humanely.
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Old 9th November 2019, 04:41 PM   #1453
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It's the part where they sit her in a chair, put restraints on her, put a gag in her mouth, and then taze her, that really shocked me. It was pure and simple cold-blooded torture. I thought tazers were supposed to be for subduing an armed attacker, as an alternative to shooting them, not for torturing women you've tied to a chair.

Who have been arrested for - wait for it - having her assistance dog off the lead, smoking and dropping litter in a public place. Here you wouldn't even be arrested for that, probably an on-the-spot fine (which is what she seemed to be expecting at the beginning) and a telling-off. Or possibly just the telling-off. I can scarcely believe it.
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Old 9th November 2019, 04:50 PM   #1454
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's the part where they sit her in a chair, put restraints on her, put a gag in her mouth, and then taze her, that really shocked me. It was pure and simple cold-blooded torture. I thought tazers were supposed to be for subduing an armed attacker, as an alternative to shooting them, not for torturing women you've tied to a chair.
It's all the more disturbing when there are 5 police officers participating in the process. How many police officers do you need to deal with an unarmed woman without resorting to weapons? And how is it that not one of them objected to the ******* hitting her with the tazer? Good cops, indeed.
Quote:
Who have been arrested for - wait for it - having her assistance dog off the lead, smoking and dropping litter in a public place. Here you wouldn't even be arrested for that, probably an on-the-spot fine (which is what she seemed to be expecting at the beginning) and a telling-off. Or possibly just the telling-off. I can scarcely believe it.
It seems that she argued with the officer and refused to sign the ticket, a step which seems entirely pointless except that this is the second occasion posted in this forum where apparently officers are justified in arresting people if they refuse...and apparently their compatriots are justified in torturing people for it.

Again, to be clear, in the United States you can get a ticket for an infraction (for example, running a stoplight or speeding) in the mail without ever dealing with a police officer. It's insane that police officers apparently have such problems handing tickets to people that they simply have to cart them off to jail.
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Old 9th November 2019, 05:54 PM   #1455
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America is a third world country.
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Old 9th November 2019, 08:18 PM   #1456
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
America is a third world country.
that happens to have a lot of resources......makes it harder to civilize them, bit like Saudi Arabia really, but what can you do
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Old 9th November 2019, 11:03 PM   #1457
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
America is a third world country.

I've been saying for a while that America is mostly a third-world country with advanced technology. Either that or a the sort of cyberpunk dystopia I used to read about when I was a kid.
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Old 10th November 2019, 02:35 AM   #1458
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Seems as if "stop resisting!" is a bit of a stock phrase.

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/stat...36905346568192
That was absolutely horrifying to watch. Again, what's with the ******* tasing of someone already subdued by a ******* neck hold? And they are putting her in a restraint chair because they "heard" a sucidal statement that she denied on the spot? How about some compassion you sick *****?

Sick ************* on a power trip. I'm so glad I'm living in a civilized society where police are taught to deescalate.
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Old 10th November 2019, 05:06 AM   #1459
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It seems that she argued with the officer and refused to sign the ticket, a step which seems entirely pointless except that this is the second occasion posted in this forum where apparently officers are justified in arresting people if they refuse...and apparently their compatriots are justified in torturing people for it.

Again, to be clear, in the United States you can get a ticket for an infraction (for example, running a stoplight or speeding) in the mail without ever dealing with a police officer. It's insane that police officers apparently have such problems handing tickets to people that they simply have to cart them off to jail.
That is the protocol cops are required to follow. The ticketing, that is, not the insanity that happened later.

Signing just means you acknowledge you were cited and you agree to pay a fine or go before a judge to fight it. He* can't let her go before getting that signature, even though, as you said, some citations arent done in person at all.

Once she has been warned and it actually gets to the arrest stage, she cannot then change her mind and sign. It's too late and he must complete the arrest/booking process.

*or "she" but I'm pretty sure it was a 'he' in this one
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Old 10th November 2019, 05:51 AM   #1460
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
*or "she" but I'm pretty sure it was a 'he' in this one
Why? The story refers to her as a woman, and she certainly looks like a woman.
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Old 10th November 2019, 06:03 AM   #1461
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's the part where they sit her in a chair, put restraints on her, put a gag in her mouth, and then taze her, that really shocked me. It was pure and simple cold-blooded torture. I thought tazers were supposed to be for subduing an armed attacker, as an alternative to shooting them, not for torturing women you've tied to a chair.

Who have been arrested for - wait for it - having her assistance dog off the lead, smoking and dropping litter in a public place. Here you wouldn't even be arrested for that, probably an on-the-spot fine (which is what she seemed to be expecting at the beginning) and a telling-off. Or possibly just the telling-off. I can scarcely believe it.
You can be arrested if you fail to give the necessary details for a fine and to identify you or if the details you give are reasonably suspected to be false.

I think that is why she was initially arrested, as she was not cooperating in providing the details the police needed. But the video is incomplete and I don't watch stuff like that any more.

I hate police who act tough and as if they are being reasonable, but their actions show that they are just bullies and cowards in uniform.
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Old 10th November 2019, 06:17 AM   #1462
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Why? The story refers to her as a woman, and she certainly looks like a woman.
The cop who arrested her.
I checked multiple stories and it only says "officer" so I'm not sure why I thought 'he'.
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Old 10th November 2019, 06:22 AM   #1463
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You can be arrested if you fail to give the necessary details for a fine and to identify you or if the details you give are reasonably suspected to be false.

OK, but you're not then going to be forced into a restraint chair and tortured by electric shocks while you're restrained. At least I hope not!
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Old 10th November 2019, 07:17 AM   #1464
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
The cop who arrested her.
I checked multiple stories and it only says "officer" so I'm not sure why I thought 'he'.
She said the 'man with the goatee' was harassing her to sign something. I think he is appropriate.
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Old 10th November 2019, 08:26 AM   #1465
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
OK, but you're not then going to be forced into a restraint chair and tortured by electric shocks while you're restrained. At least I hope not!
I can honestly say that once in my career (and I was sent out of the office on an "errand") do I know that a prisoner was tortured. He had been praying on the elderly, conning and stealing from vulnerable people, because he knew they were less likely to go as witnesses. So a confession was needed....
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Old 10th November 2019, 08:39 AM   #1466
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
That is the protocol cops are required to follow. The ticketing, that is, not the insanity that happened later.

Signing just means you acknowledge you were cited and you agree to pay a fine or go before a judge to fight it. He* can't let her go before getting that signature, even though, as you said, some citations arent done in person at all.

Once she has been warned and it actually gets to the arrest stage, she cannot then change her mind and sign. It's too late and he must complete the arrest/booking process.

*or "she" but I'm pretty sure it was a 'he' in this one
Oh, sweet FSM, yeah, I get it. There's a protocol, there's a procedure, and if a civilian with no experience with the procedure doesn't follow it, or if the civilian gets mad because of something that would make anyone mad, then they need to be jailed. It's ******* genius and profits society greatly.

Guess what? This procedure of cops collecting signatures is stupid.
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Old 10th November 2019, 09:13 AM   #1467
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Oh, sweet FSM, yeah, I get it. There's a protocol, there's a procedure, and if a civilian with no experience with the procedure doesn't follow it, or if the civilian gets mad because of something that would make anyone mad, then they need to be jailed. It's ******* genius and profits society greatly.

Guess what? This procedure of cops collecting signatures is stupid.
Agreed, it's another opportunity for them to escalate the situation and have any flimsy excuse to exert physical force on you and throw you in a cage, which seems to be the goal in nearly every interaction with police.
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Old 10th November 2019, 09:36 AM   #1468
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I can honestly say that once in my career (and I was sent out of the office on an "errand") do I know that a prisoner was tortured. He had been praying on the elderly, conning and stealing from vulnerable people, because he knew they were less likely to go as witnesses. So a confession was needed....

But not for dropping litter (and having a dog off the lead and smoking in public).
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Old 10th November 2019, 09:43 AM   #1469
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I can honestly say that once in my career (and I was sent out of the office on an "errand") do I know that a prisoner was tortured. He had been praying on the elderly, conning and stealing from vulnerable people, because he knew they were less likely to go as witnesses. So a confession was needed....
Like the Birmingham Six blowing that place up. A confession was needed.
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Old 10th November 2019, 10:37 AM   #1470
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I can honestly say that once in my career (and I was sent out of the office on an "errand") do I know that a prisoner was tortured. He had been praying on the elderly, conning and stealing from vulnerable people, because he knew they were less likely to go as witnesses. So a confession was needed....
Of which church was he a minister?
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Old 10th November 2019, 10:42 AM   #1471
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Oh, sweet FSM, yeah, I get it. There's a protocol, there's a procedure, and if a civilian with no experience with the procedure doesn't follow it, or if the civilian gets mad because of something that would make anyone mad, then they need to be jailed. It's ******* genius and profits society greatly.

Guess what? This procedure of cops collecting signatures is stupid.
It is a very common practice across the US; and where signatures are required, citations almost universally note that signing is not an admission of guilt. Although unlike the requirement to present license and registration, you are NOT required to be familiar with it for something commonplace like driving.

Presumably the law helps ensure that individuals will address the crimes and charges levied against them (aka pay their fines). Here's the thing though - states in the US get to set their own laws regarding what is required for the police to issue citations. There are discrete democratic processes by which the population could change such things if they feel put upon. Some states do not require signatures on citations. So if the law exists, it exists because the population wants it to work that way.
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Old 10th November 2019, 11:38 AM   #1472
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
It is a very common practice across the US; and where signatures are required, citations almost universally note that signing is not an admission of guilt. Although unlike the requirement to present license and registration, you are NOT required to be familiar with it for something commonplace like driving.

Presumably the law helps ensure that individuals will address the crimes and charges levied against them (aka pay their fines). Here's the thing though - states in the US get to set their own laws regarding what is required for the police to issue citations. There are discrete democratic processes by which the population could change such things if they feel put upon. Some states do not require signatures on citations. So if the law exists, it exists because the population wants it to work that way.
And does any of this excuse imprisoning non-violent people, stripping them of basic humanity, strapping them down and tasing them? Also, under what discrete democratic process was all of that voted in?
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Old 10th November 2019, 12:42 PM   #1473
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
And does any of this excuse imprisoning non-violent people, stripping them of basic humanity, strapping them down and tasing them? Also, under what discrete democratic process was all of that voted in?
The statutory listings for all 50 states are readily available online, usually along with references regarding when they were enacted and by whom. Feel free to look up the particulars yourself, rather than continuing to make imbecilic presumptions and insinuations. California and Texas are both states that require signed citations IIRC.
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Old 10th November 2019, 12:45 PM   #1474
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
The statutory listings for all 50 states are readily available online, usually along with references regarding when they were enacted and by whom. Feel free to look up the particulars yourself, rather than continuing to make imbecilic presumptions and insinuations. California and Texas are both states that require signed citations IIRC.
That didn't answer the post you quoted.
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Old 10th November 2019, 12:46 PM   #1475
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That didn't answer the post you quoted.
It answered that part I chose to respond to.
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Old 10th November 2019, 12:47 PM   #1476
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
It answered that part I chose to respond to.
Could you then indicate which part you were responding to - because as far as my comprehension goes it didn't answer any part of the post.
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Old 10th November 2019, 01:00 PM   #1477
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Originally Posted by Max_mang
And does any of this excuse imprisoning non-violent people, stripping them of basic humanity, strapping them down and tasing them? Also, under what discrete democratic process was all of that voted in?
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Could you then indicate which part you were responding to - because as far as my comprehension goes it didn't answer any part of the post.
EDIT: Sorry, that was wholly unnecessary. No, the legal requirements that citations be signed by the offender have NOTHING to do with (i.e. do not excuse) inhumane treatment of the individual or individuals arrested. But they do stipulate that an individual who refuses to sign may or must be arrested. Which presumes a certain minimum level of violence if the offender is resisting.

It should have been clear to anyone who bothered to read it that I was not responding to anything beyond the legal requirements of citations in post 1471.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 10th November 2019 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 10th November 2019, 01:41 PM   #1478
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
And does any of this excuse imprisoning non-violent people, stripping them of basic humanity, strapping them down and tasing them? Also, under what discrete democratic process was all of that voted in?
Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
The statutory listings for all 50 states are readily available online, usually along with references regarding when they were enacted and by whom. Feel free to look up the particulars yourself, rather than continuing to make imbecilic presumptions and insinuations. California and Texas are both states that require signed citations IIRC.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That didn't answer the post you quoted.
Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
It answered that part I chose to respond to.
Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
EDIT: Sorry, that was wholly unnecessary. No, the legal requirements that citations be signed by the offender have NOTHING to do with (i.e. do not excuse) inhumane treatment of the individual or individuals arrested. But they do stipulate that an individual who refuses to sign may or must be arrested. Which presumes a certain minimum level of violence if the offender is resisting.

It should have been clear to anyone who bothered to read it that I was not responding to anything beyond the legal requirements of citations in post 1471.
I'm struggling to see how it doesn't violate at least the 8th amendment.
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Old 10th November 2019, 02:01 PM   #1479
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I'm struggling to see how it doesn't violate at least the 8th amendment.
Which specifically? If you mean the treatment of the woman from the clip in post 1450, that's almost certainly NOT legal beyond the initial arrest.
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Old 10th November 2019, 02:04 PM   #1480
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
Agreed, it's another opportunity for them to escalate the situation and have any flimsy excuse to exert physical force on you and throw you in a cage, which seems to be the goal in nearly every interaction with police.

Ya, nearly every. Except for the dozen or so times I've been pulled over or otherwise interacted with cops. And except for every interaction of every person I know who has dealt with police. I mean I'm sure my friends would have told me of their harrowing experiences if they'd occurred.

Yep that's all those guys live for. Every day all day, virtually every cop and every interaction.
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