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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 8th November 2019, 05:10 PM   #1321
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Actually, I think Giuliani was running something of a rogue operation that got Yovanovitch fired, but that's a separate issue from Trump's "perfect" quid pro quo.
There was NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING "rogue" about what Rudy was doing.
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Old 8th November 2019, 05:43 PM   #1322
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There was NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING "rogue" about what Rudy was doing.
I believe that the whole arms-money-for-investigation thing was pure Trump. The Yovanovitch thing may have been an almost-unrelated thing that Giuliani was pushing at the behest of some Ukrainians who, AFAIK, didn't care about Biden.
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Old 8th November 2019, 05:54 PM   #1323
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I believe that the whole arms-money-for-investigation thing was pure Trump. The Yovanovitch thing may have been an almost-unrelated thing that Giuliani was pushing at the behest of some Ukrainians who, AFAIK, didn't care about Biden.
No, it's clear that removing Yovanovitch was a necessary element of the plan.
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Old 8th November 2019, 06:28 PM   #1324
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Trump earlier today:

Quote:
"I’m not concerned about anything," Trump said. "The testimony has all been fine. I mean for the most part, I’ve never even heard of these people. There are some very fine people. You have some Never Trumpers. It seems that nobody has any first-hand knowledge."
What reality does this Clown live in? Perhaps this belongs in the "Donald Trump has a serious mental illness" thread.
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Old 8th November 2019, 08:48 PM   #1325
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Meanwhile there appears that Bolton is teasing people with more details:

From: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/08/polit...ion/index.html
Former national security adviser John Bolton has "personal knowledge" of relevant meetings and conversations "that have not yet been discussed in testimonies thus far" as part of the impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump, but he is still refusing to testify until a federal judge rules in an ongoing legal fight between House committees and the White House, according to his lawyer.

To be honest I'm not really sure what his angle is. He is waiting for a legal ruling regarding his immunity from prosecution, but I doubt a judge really cares what he might talk about when debriefed.
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Old 8th November 2019, 08:51 PM   #1326
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
To be honest I'm not really sure what his angle is. He is waiting for a legal ruling regarding his immunity from prosecution, but I doubt a judge really cares what he might talk about when debriefed.
The warmongering weasel may be showing us why so many people are following orders to ignore congressional subpoenas: They're afraid that if they testify, they won't get their promised pardons.
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Old 8th November 2019, 09:47 PM   #1327
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
To be honest I'm not really sure what [Bolton's] angle is.
My guess: money. He wants to save the juicy drug deals for his memoirs.
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Old 8th November 2019, 10:46 PM   #1328
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It is weird that people are hiding behind already contests DOJ opinions instead of following the examples of the Nixon and Clinton Impeachments -
If Bolton knows of impeachable offenses committed by Trump, he needs to tell them, and he can be sure their won't be legal consequences for him.
But no judicial ruling will protect him from the Trumpsters.
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Old 9th November 2019, 05:06 AM   #1329
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Rumors now abounding that GOPers in the House are considering a plan to make Giuliani the scapegoat for the Ukraine scandal, trying to portray it as a rogue operation Trump had no control over.....
Total BS of course, but it indicates the evidence of wrongdoing is so strong that they can't just hand wave it away or claim nothing happened.
A few weeks ago Trump did claim not to know whether Giuliani was his lawyer and said he hadn't spoken to him in a while.
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Old 9th November 2019, 05:28 AM   #1330
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It's being reported that Trump is hiring Pam Bondi to help with his response to impeachment. Bondi was the AG who declined to bring charges against Trump over Trump University, after the Trump Foundation (Trump's charity, now dissolved for fraud) donated money to her campaign.
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Old 9th November 2019, 05:29 AM   #1331
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Every public document related to the impeachent inquiry
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Old 9th November 2019, 08:10 AM   #1332
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Meanwhile there appears that Bolton is teasing people with more details:

From: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/08/polit...ion/index.html
Former national security adviser John Bolton has "personal knowledge" of relevant meetings and conversations "that have not yet been discussed in testimonies thus far" as part of the impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump, but he is still refusing to testify until a federal judge rules in an ongoing legal fight between House committees and the White House, according to his lawyer.

To be honest I'm not really sure what his angle is. He is waiting for a legal ruling regarding his immunity from prosecution, but I doubt a judge really cares what he might talk about when debriefed.
Seems to me that Bolton is being consistent here. He believes in a very strong executive branch so he doesn't dismiss the notion that he can be ordered not to testify. But it's also plausible that the order is not a legal order and he can't ignore a subpoena from Congress, so he's asking advice from a court.

I'm not particularly fond of Bolton but I do think he's a man of some principles. (No wonder he was a poor fit in the Trump administration.)

Mulvaney is doing the same thing today. I'm not sure, but that may be a political strategy. It adds weight to the case that the House Democrats would just as soon drop in favor of a speedy process. If they feel compelled to pursue the court case to enforce their subpoenas, the whole process is slowed down and loses some momentum.
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Old 9th November 2019, 08:13 AM   #1333
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Bolton's primary principle is that war is the answer to every problem. He'd have fixed the Ukraine situation by bombing Kiev.

Meanwhile Trump is complaining that hearings should not be held in public. Exactly the opposite of a couple of weeks ago.
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Old 9th November 2019, 08:17 AM   #1334
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
The warmongering weasel may be showing us why so many people are following orders to ignore congressional subpoenas: They're afraid that if they testify, they won't get their promised pardons.
Why would Bolton need a pardon? He hasn't been accused of anything illegal in the press.

I don't think you're right about him.
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Old 9th November 2019, 08:29 AM   #1335
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Bolton's primary principle is that war is the answer to every problem. He'd have fixed the Ukraine situation by bombing Kiev.
I'm not saying that I approve of all of Bolton's principles.

But he was on the right side of the meetings Hill and Vindman testified about. He expressed a prudent interest not to be part of anything so dubious as the quid pro quo under discussion. He's showing a similar prudence in deferring to a court as to whether the administration's claim of immunity is valid or not.

I'm not saying that his position is noble. If he thinks the administration has crossed a serious line, it would be a noble act to testify regardless of the administration's order not to, as several people have. Bolton is instead covering his ass.
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Old 9th November 2019, 08:32 AM   #1336
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Giuliani sounds worried. From about 20 minutes ago:

"Rudy Giuliani
@RudyGiuliani
Schiff has completely trashed the Constitution.

No right of counsel. No right of cross-examination. No right to call witnesses.

But you bet they will conduct at least 20 different investigations of me to try to find if I did something wrong in grammar school."

https://twitter.com/RudyGiuliani/sta...86455646064641
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Old 9th November 2019, 08:51 AM   #1337
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What's the under/over on this finally breaking Trump and him going full on Jack Nicholson during the hearing?
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Old 9th November 2019, 09:00 AM   #1338
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Why would Bolton need a pardon? He hasn't been accused of anything illegal in the press.

I don't think you're right about him.
He, along with the rest of the executive branch scum, pretty obviously doesn't believe in the Constitution of the United States of America. "Checks and balances?" If the United States Congress can't compel testimony from members of the executive branch, then members of the executive branch are effectively above the law.

Seriously, this isn't even high school civics stuff. It's literally taught in grade school.
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Old 9th November 2019, 09:10 AM   #1339
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What's the under/over on this finally breaking Trump and him going full on Jack Nicholson during the hearing?
I'm thinking more Al Pacino.
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Old 9th November 2019, 09:28 AM   #1340
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'm thinking more Al Pacino.
So far it’s been more Tommy Wiseau.
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Old 9th November 2019, 10:05 AM   #1341
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'm thinking more Al Pacino.
Say hello to my little hands!
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Old 9th November 2019, 10:41 AM   #1342
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'm thinking more Al Pacino.
My money is on Charlie Sheen.
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Old 9th November 2019, 01:28 PM   #1343
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
So far it’s been more Tommy Wiseau.
LOL
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Old 9th November 2019, 02:00 PM   #1344
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The real joke is now the Republicans want both Hunter Hunter Biden and the whistleblower to appear as witnesses during the impeachment hearings. Their reasoning is pure nonsense and nothing other than an attempt to make the inquiry about these people instead of the actions of Trump and the administration.
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Old 9th November 2019, 02:14 PM   #1345
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
He, along with the rest of the executive branch scum, pretty obviously doesn't believe in the Constitution of the United States of America. "Checks and balances?" If the United States Congress can't compel testimony from members of the executive branch, then members of the executive branch are effectively above the law.

Seriously, this isn't even high school civics stuff. It's literally taught in grade school.
The executive branch has certain rights and privileges. They are asserting that among those rights is the right not to submit to the current subpoenas.

Congress, of course, has rights as well, such as the right to issue such subpoenas.

An employee of the administration finds himself in a conflict. Congress has ordered him to appear. The administration has ordered him not to. There are three obvious possibilities:

(1) Decide for yourself that Congress has the authority and appear, as some have done.

(2) Decide for yourself that the executive branch has the authority and do not appear, as some have done.

(3) Decide that you should defer to the courts in order to decide who has the authority, as Bolton, Mulvaney, McGahn and one other guy whose name eludes me have done.

I don't see (3) as a bad option. It's much better than (2). I think (1) is a noble route to take, but I don't begrudge those who take (3). It is the safest option. (I would, of course, blame those who choose (3) not out of an abundance of caution but merely to slow the proceedings to a crawl. At present, I don't see much reason to suppose this is Bolton's tactic, though it sure could be.)
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Old 9th November 2019, 02:57 PM   #1346
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The real joke is now the Republicans want both Hunter Hunter Biden and the whistleblower to appear as witnesses during the impeachment hearings. Their reasoning is pure nonsense and nothing other than an attempt to make the inquiry about these people instead of the actions of Trump and the administration.
Exactly. That H. Biden sat on Burisma's board is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he was paid for doing nothing but lending his surname. Trump sells the use of his name on building and merchandise he does not own.
This is nothing but a "Look! Squirrel" tactic.
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Old 9th November 2019, 03:03 PM   #1347
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Exactly. That H. Biden sat on Burisma's board is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he was paid for doing nothing but lending his surname. Trump sells the use of his name on building and merchandise he does not own.
This is nothing but a "Look! Squirrel" tactic.
Talk about fixating on the irrelephant in the room. Biden was unaware of the phone call and the committee has moved on so far past the phone call.
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Old 9th November 2019, 03:06 PM   #1348
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Talk about fixating on the irrelephant in the room. Biden was unaware of the phone call and the committee has moved on so far past the phone call.
I'm going to use that little gem.
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Old 9th November 2019, 03:11 PM   #1349
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The real joke is now the Republicans want both Hunter Hunter Biden and the whistleblower to appear as witnesses during the impeachment hearings. Their reasoning is pure nonsense and nothing other than an attempt to make the inquiry about these people instead of the actions of Trump and the administration.
Sad thing is that repetitively linking “Biden” with “corruption” has apparently achieved its goal: driving the Democratic front runner down to fourth place.

These are tried and true tactics, and I’m not sure what the defense is.
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Old 9th November 2019, 03:50 PM   #1350
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Sad thing is that repetitively linking “Biden” with “corruption” has apparently achieved its goal: driving the Democratic front runner down to fourth place.

These are tried and true tactics, and I’m not sure what the defense is.

I don't think there is a remedy for that sort of thing.


Unfortunately for the Democrats, they don't have a cult following (herding cats and all that) like the Republicans do. It seems religion does serve a purpose afterall... and it's served the Republicans quite nicely thus far.
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Old 9th November 2019, 03:52 PM   #1351
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Talk about fixating on the irrelephant in the room. Biden was unaware of the phone call and the committee has moved on so far past the phone call.
Exactly, if Schiff is smart, he will say sure, we'll let the GOP depose Hunter Biden. That is if the administration not only frees everyone in the government to fully cooperate with the impeachment inquiry but ORDERS IT! No more ******* around.

As for the whistleblower "Go to hell". The whistleblower law was specifically enacted so government officials could bring to attention important concerns without being worried about reprisal. It would send a disastrous signal to future employees if Congress and the government were to prove itself untrustworthy. There is NOTHING the whistleblower reported that hasn't been confirmed by other sources.
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Old 9th November 2019, 04:14 PM   #1352
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The real joke is now the Republicans want both Hunter Hunter Biden and the whistleblower to appear as witnesses during the impeachment hearings. Their reasoning is pure nonsense and nothing other than an attempt to make the inquiry about these people instead of the actions of Trump and the administration.
Quite. The Bidens can obviously tell us nothing about what Trump, Guiliani and the other players got up to (except hearsay, and we know Republicans hate that), and I can imagine the first question Republicans will ask the whistleblower : "When did you first meet with Schiff to concoct your so-called whistleblower report?". Since they won't get a Ukrainian investigation of the Bidens now, they'll try to make the impeachment enquiry into one. They desperately want an equivalent to Clinton's emails because that's the only way they know how to campaign.
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Old 9th November 2019, 04:18 PM   #1353
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Sad thing is that repetitively linking “Biden” with “corruption” has apparently achieved its goal: driving the Democratic front runner down to fourth place.
I doubt many Democratic voters actually believe Biden's corrupt; I think they just don't want this thing dominating the campaign, especially when they find Hunter Biden's activities rather distasteful. As, I imagine, do most of us.
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Old 9th November 2019, 04:21 PM   #1354
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
I don't think there is a remedy for that sort of thing.
Maybe the 2nd Amendment folks know one, I don't know.
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Old 9th November 2019, 04:22 PM   #1355
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CNN have published a summary of the key points from all the testimony thus far released to the public
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Old 9th November 2019, 04:51 PM   #1356
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Sad thing is that repetitively linking “Biden” with “corruption” has apparently achieved its goal: driving the Democratic front runner down to fourth place.

These are tried and true tactics, and I’m not sure what the defense is.
I'm not really sure that it has. Biden's star was dropping well before all of the Ukraine stuff came out, and Warren was polling ahead of him when it did. His drop really is just a continuation of his previous slide which was on the back of his own gaffs and poor performances in the Debates, as well as good performances by others and name recognition increasing for the previous minor players.
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Old 9th November 2019, 04:55 PM   #1357
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The executive branch has certain rights and privileges. They are asserting that among those rights is the right not to submit to the current subpoenas.

Congress, of course, has rights as well, such as the right to issue such subpoenas.

An employee of the administration finds himself in a conflict. Congress has ordered him to appear. The administration has ordered him not to. There are three obvious possibilities:

(1) Decide for yourself that Congress has the authority and appear, as some have done.

(2) Decide for yourself that the executive branch has the authority and do not appear, as some have done.

(3) Decide that you should defer to the courts in order to decide who has the authority, as Bolton, Mulvaney, McGahn and one other guy whose name eludes me have done.

I don't see (3) as a bad option. It's much better than (2). I think (1) is a noble route to take, but I don't begrudge those who take (3). It is the safest option. (I would, of course, blame those who choose (3) not out of an abundance of caution but merely to slow the proceedings to a crawl. At present, I don't see much reason to suppose this is Bolton's tactic, though it sure could be.)
One of the problems here is that the Executive is pretty much claiming Executive Privilege to absolutely everything, whereas legally it has been defined very narrowly by the Courts in the past, ironically because of the Republicans going after Clinton and Obama on various things, as well as rules over Nixon's tapes and documents.

Should the house go for it, and personally I think that they should, the ledge that the Whitehouse is standing on is extremely narrow.
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Old 9th November 2019, 05:24 PM   #1358
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Exactly, if Schiff is smart, he will say sure, we'll let the GOP depose Hunter Biden. That is if the administration not only frees everyone in the government to fully cooperate with the impeachment inquiry but ORDERS IT! No more ******* around.
The greatest deal-maker of all time anywhere ever should relish negotiating a deal.

Quote:
As for the whistleblower "Go to hell".
It's a (predictable) shame that the Republicans didn't take up the whistleblower's offer of written questions, making it explicit that this would be without prejudice to their demand that he present himself. I'd love to have seen what questions they'd come up with. The fact that they didn't shows just how spurious those demands are.

Quote:
The whistleblower law was specifically enacted so government officials could bring to attention important concerns without being worried about reprisal. It would send a disastrous signal to future employees if Congress and the government were to prove itself untrustworthy.
Disastrous from your point of view, but absolutely spinky from Trump's.
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Old 9th November 2019, 05:42 PM   #1359
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The greatest deal-maker of all time anywhere ever should relish negotiating a deal.

It's a (predictable) shame that the Republicans didn't take up the whistleblower's offer of written questions, making it explicit that this would be without prejudice to their demand that he present himself. I'd love to have seen what questions they'd come up with. The fact that they didn't shows just how spurious those demands are.

Disastrous from your point of view, but absolutely spinky from Trump's.
That's why Congressional Republicans need to think this through and look beyond this moment.
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Old 9th November 2019, 06:09 PM   #1360
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Rumors now abounding that GOPers in the House are considering a plan to make Giuliani the scapegoat for the Ukraine scandal, trying to portray it as a rogue operation Trump had no control over.....
Total BS of course, but it indicates the evidence of wrongdoing is so strong that they can't just hand wave it away or claim nothing happened.
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Meanwhile, in the White House it's Mulvaney being thrown under the bus.
Which just shows how misguided their actions were. Why shill for Trump when this is the only outcome you can expect?
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