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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:37 PM   #161
plague311
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I can't remember if someone posted this, but it's official:

Quote:
A majority of House Democrats are now on record publicly supporting an impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump, according to a CNN count -- a sign of momentum for pro-impeachment lawmakers that is likely to ramp up pressure on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and House Democratic leaders.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:56 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
1. Do you know the name of the poster I was debating with?
2. Do you know which one of us first bought up Bill Clinton
3. Other than that they are politically motivated, does it look like I agree that the Clinton impeachment is equivalent to this?
A simple, "you misunderstood me" with a correction would be fine.

Your post did indeed look like you were agreeing with the false equivalence.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 05:04 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Dems need to push the fact that Trump is a seriously compromised individual heading up a seriously compromised administration, and that they are an ongoing threat to our national security, e.g. refusing to act to prevent foreign intrusion on our elections, and the shady stuff like the Saudi nuclear deal and lifting sanctions on Russian oligarchs, to name a few. That works for both a reason to impeach and a reason to burn the Party of Trump to the ground in 2020.
This stuff has been know about or believed since long before the 2016 election. It doesn't change my earlier assertion that an impeachment trial in the Senate could get turned around and end up costing the Democrats votes.

The best way to get rid of Trump is a decent Democrat candidate for POTUS.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 05:12 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
A simple, "you misunderstood me" with a correction would be fine.

Your post did indeed look like you were agreeing with the false equivalence.
I would have thought that the scare quote and the snark at the end of my post would have suggested otherwise.

But saying "It turns out that YOU BELIEVE the "precedent" was Bill Clinton" would have made my meaning clearer and I admit that all of the intervening posts would have made our discussion more difficult to follow.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 06:35 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I would have thought that the scare quote and the snark at the end of my post would have suggested otherwise.

But saying "It turns out that YOU BELIEVE the "precedent" was Bill Clinton" would have made my meaning clearer and I admit that all of the intervening posts would have made our discussion more difficult to follow.
If you need help understanding why someone might have misunderstood you:
Originally Posted by psionl0
Then you have changed your argument. You originally stated that impeachment was mandated by the constitution and that there is precedent for this.

Now you are only saying that congress is morally obliged to impeach. It turns out that the "precedent" was Bill Clinton. If you think that was anything other than base politics by a Republican dominated congress then you should have your stock broker examine the shares in the Brooklyn bridge that you bought.
Keep in mind, not everyone is going to go back through a half dozen posts before the one they are replying to. That's why a simple 'you misunderstood' would saved a slew of wasted posts.

Quote:
Then you have changed your argument.
OK, not relevant to me.
Quote:
You originally stated that impeachment was mandated by the constitution and that there is precedent for this
OK, looks like what you are about to contradict. I'm with you so far.
Quote:
Now you are only saying that congress is morally obliged to impeach.
I agree with that person's position there. I think we have a duty not to let blatant crimes go unaddressed.
Quote:
It turns out that the "precedent" was Bill Clinton. If you think that was anything other than base politics by a Republican dominated congress then you should have your stock broker examine the shares in the Brooklyn bridge that you bought.
It's very easy to mis-read this. You don't need to get miffed if someone has. It sounds like you are saying both Clinton's impeachment AND Trump's are partisan politics.

Now that you tell me you meant something else, fine, I see where I misunderstood you. A simple, "you misunderstood" would have been sufficient.

Is that offensive that someone misread that?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 09:03 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's why a simple 'you misunderstood' would saved a slew of wasted posts.
And the slew continues.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It sounds like you are saying both Clinton's impeachment AND Trump's are partisan politics.

Now that you tell me you meant something else, fine, I see where I misunderstood you.
No, I didn't mean something else. Both are partisan politics and the primary concern in both cases is votes. That doesn't mean that because Clinton was tried for impeachment that it sets a precedent for Trump. As you say, it is a false equivalence.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 05:10 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And an impeachment inquiry gives them more legal power to gather evidence. I don't know where you're expecting a "strong enough hand" to come from if they don't have a proper inquiry.
As of this writing there 29 active government investigations against one Donald J. Trump; 10 Federal, 8 State, and 11 Congressional. The "let's investigate Trump to find out what he's doing" bases are covered.

One more investigation, even one on the level of impeachment, isn't going to uncover this magical "actually going to make a difference this time" piece of dirt.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 05:14 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
As of this writing there 29 active government investigations against one Donald J. Trump; 10 Federal, 8 State, and 11 Congressional. The "let's investigate Trump to find out what he's doing" bases are covered.

One more investigation, even one on the level of impeachment, isn't going to uncover this magical "actually going to make a difference this time" piece of dirt.
No, but it keeps Trump busy and drains his re-election funds. And maybe his wallet, too.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 06:52 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
As of this writing there 29 active government investigations against one Donald J. Trump; 10 Federal, 8 State, and 11 Congressional. The "let's investigate Trump to find out what he's doing" bases are covered.

One more investigation, even one on the level of impeachment, isn't going to uncover this magical "actually going to make a difference this time" piece of dirt.
This doesn't in any way address anything I said.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 07:20 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This doesn't in any way address anything I said.
You said that even if it was doomed to failure on a legislative level impeaching Trump is worth it because we need to investigate to find out what he's done as if we haven't been doing that since pretty much ever.

I'm wondering what impeachment is going to uncover that

A) all the other investigations haven't
B) is going to matter to his base and/or the fence sitters/margins
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Old 3rd August 2019, 07:40 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You said that even if it was doomed to failure on a legislative level impeaching Trump is worth it because we need to investigate to find out what he's done as if we haven't been doing that since pretty much ever.
Can you quote me saying that?
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Old 3rd August 2019, 08:32 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Can you quote me saying that?
Not playing this game.

Your exact words SINCE THOSE ARE SO GODDAMN BLOODY IMPORTANT FOR NO REASON when we were discussing impeachment, which I ALREADY QUOTED IN MY FIRST RESPONSE TO YOU is

"And an impeachment inquiry gives them more legal power to gather evidence. I don't know where you're expecting a 'strong enough hand' to come from if they don't have a proper inquiry."

There's already two dozen "proper inquiry" going after Trump to "gather evidence."

The inquiry is already happening 28 times over. The evidence has already been gathered. The hand is as strong as it's going to get.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 08:47 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not playing this game.
Yes, if you can't quote me saying something that you're claiming I said, then that should give you pause for thought about whether or not I actually said it.

Now that you've chosen to address what I've actually said, rather than an Aunt Sally of your own creation, if it's your opinion that an impeachment inquiry would necessarily be redundant because it would be impossible for them to have access to any information that other inquiries don't already have access to, then can you tell me which inquiry, for example, already has Trump's tax returns?
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Old 9th August 2019, 01:57 AM   #174
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https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1159629510360424449

Quote:
Rep. Jerry Nadler: "This is formal impeachment proceedings."
Video embedded in tweet.
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Old 10th August 2019, 07:26 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You said that even if it was doomed to failure on a legislative level impeaching Trump is worth it because we need to investigate to find out what he's done as if we haven't been doing that since pretty much ever.

I'm wondering what impeachment is going to uncover that

A) all the other investigations haven't
B) is going to matter to his base and/or the fence sitters/margins
Remember Alexander Butterfield?
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Old 10th August 2019, 07:37 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The inquiry is already happening 28 times over. The evidence has already been gathered. The hand is as strong as it's going to get.
If you’re referring to the Mueller investigation, I disagree. His investigation was very limited. There are a number of obvious questions that still need answering, from his banking issues to the question of whether he’s been compromised by Russia.
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Old 14th August 2019, 11:35 AM   #177
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House Dems dealt a bit of a blow in court today:

Quote:
A federal judge on Wednesday rejected the House Judiciary Committee’s bid to formally link two lawsuits it contends will expedite its decision to recommend articles of impeachment against President Donald Trump.
Thought they don't seem terribly heartbroken by it:

Quote:
“The judge had this discretion under the rule and we appreciate the rapid reassignment. We look forward to getting to the merits of our complaint,” a Judiciary Committee spokeswoman said.
No bitching, pissing and moaning like we've come to expect from some people in our political atmosphere. Looks like they're going to be moving ahead fairly quickly, which I hope actually is true.
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Old 19th August 2019, 12:34 PM   #178
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The number 4 Democrat, Rep. Ben Ray Luján, is now in support of moving forward with impeachment:

Quote:
“I support moving forward with an impeachment inquiry, which will continue to uncover the facts for the American people and hold this president accountable,” Luján said in a statement, citing the findings from former special counsel Robert Mueller’s report released this spring.
It looks like his reasoning is more based on Trump's inaction to protect the elections:

Quote:
“President Trump’s lack of action is jeopardizing our elections, national security, and Democracy,” Luján said. “Not only has he ignored the warnings that our Democracy is being targeted, but he has also actively encouraged Russian interference.”
Seems like a roundabout way to get there, but all the more power to him.
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Old 19th August 2019, 12:46 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
If you’re referring to the Mueller investigation, I disagree. His investigation was very limited. There are a number of obvious questions that still need answering, from his banking issues to the question of whether he’s been compromised by Russia.
I'm referring to the 28 SEPARATE INVESTIGATIONS currently underway against Trump. This mythical 29th one, even if it's an impeachment, isn't going to uncover anything new.

But fine, if the Dems are bound and determined to go forward with impeachment without a majority in the Senate, then wait a few months. Time it so the impeachment is going on on election day. Make people go to the polls while Trump is in the impeachment process. That's still risky (it runs the very real chance of turning the election into the referendum on the impeachment) but it mitigates the "Handing him a victor narrative" problem.

Also, and this is gonna be hard but it's important, no snide "Oh but you're okay impeaching Clinton for a blowjob!?" quips. Not one. Not from the Democratic Leadership, not from the network talking heads, not from the peanut gallery, not from the Democratic base, none. The Republicans are going to play the victim cards. They are going to say we aren't respecting the office. Ignore them. Shake it off.

Don't mention Clinton. If they mention him don't acknowledge it. Do not let this get turned into a narrative where this is just the Dems getting back for Clinton.

And as always if I'm wrong and they can get rid of Trump I'll eat all the crow anyone wants to serve me.
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Old 19th August 2019, 03:09 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm referring to the 28 SEPARATE INVESTIGATIONS currently underway against Trump. This mythical 29th one, even if it's an impeachment, isn't going to uncover anything new.
If it's your opinion that an impeachment inquiry would necessarily be redundant because it would be impossible for them to have access to any information that other inquiries don't already have access to, then can you tell me which inquiry, for example, already has Trump's tax returns?
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Old 19th August 2019, 03:35 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If it's your opinion that an impeachment inquiry would necessarily be redundant because it would be impossible for them to have access to any information that other inquiries don't already have access to, then can you tell me which inquiry, for example, already has Trump's tax returns?
What on Earth is his tax return going to do?

He's openly racist, openly xenophobic, so deep in Putin's pocket he's got Putin's keys stuck in his comb-over, runs concentration camps, mocked a disabled person, and those are just the ones that I can rattle off of the top of my head, and his supporters have either denied or rationalized ALL... OF.... THAT and you think his goddamn tax returns are going to shock them?

The investigation would have to uncover stuff worse then the stuff he's already done. And that's not even counting the fact that the luck these investigation's have been having the Dems are going to investigate Trump's tax returns and wind up finding out he's owed a refund.

Here we'll ask the board's Trumpers. If we investigate Trump's taxes and find them dirty, are you going to stop supporting him?
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Old 19th August 2019, 04:02 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm referring to the 28 SEPARATE INVESTIGATIONS currently underway against Trump. This mythical 29th one, even if it's an impeachment, isn't going to uncover anything new.

But fine, if the Dems are bound and determined to go forward with impeachment without a majority in the Senate, then wait a few months. Time it so the impeachment is going on on election day. Make people go to the polls while Trump is in the impeachment process. That's still risky (it runs the very real chance of turning the election into the referendum on the impeachment) but it mitigates the "Handing him a victor narrative" problem.

Also, and this is gonna be hard but it's important, no snide "Oh but you're okay impeaching Clinton for a blowjob!?" quips. Not one. Not from the Democratic Leadership, not from the network talking heads, not from the peanut gallery, not from the Democratic base, none. The Republicans are going to play the victim cards. They are going to say we aren't respecting the office. Ignore them. Shake it off.

Don't mention Clinton. If they mention him don't acknowledge it. Do not let this get turned into a narrative where this is just the Dems getting back for Clinton.

And as always if I'm wrong and they can get rid of Trump I'll eat all the crow anyone wants to serve me.
I don't think many people really had a problem with Clinton getting the occasional blowjob in the Oval Office. Lying under oath though, that's a good one. If they could get Trump on that, like Clinton, it probably wouldn't result in conviction in the Senate , but it might sway the election.
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Old 19th August 2019, 08:11 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What on Earth is his tax return going to do?

...
Why is he so reluctant to disclose them? Surely there is no noble principle Trump is standing on keeping them secret.

POTUSes have a right to IRS privacy?
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Old 19th August 2019, 08:50 PM   #184
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Investigations don't have to uncover anything more criminal than what is known already.
Something hard to deny and very unpresidential would be enough, something to rile up support for Dems and make some Reps stay at home.
Ideally something that would shame the GOP into supporting election security.
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:07 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What on Earth is his tax return going to do?
Depends what's in them. One possibility is provide evidence that he's been laundering money for the Russian mob for decades. Or, like his father did, set up a shell company to fraudulently siphon money from his tenants to line the pockets of whoever owns the company in this case, most likely Trump himself).

Quote:
He's openly racist, openly xenophobic, so deep in Putin's pocket he's got Putin's keys stuck in his comb-over, runs concentration camps, mocked a disabled person, and those are just the ones that I can rattle off of the top of my head, and his supporters have either denied or rationalized ALL... OF.... THAT and you think his goddamn tax returns are going to shock them?
This thread is about impeachment proceedings, seeking to establish and prosecute criminal behaviour, not about shocking anybody. Do you think the aim of the "28 SEPARATE INVESTIGATIONS" is to shock Trump supporters?

Besides which, you've now changed your argument from being that such an investigation wouldn't turn up "something new" to that what new it might uncover not having an effect on Trump's supporters.
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Old 20th August 2019, 01:01 AM   #186
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I doubt the Senate would convict even if Trump got caught lying under oath. They don't care that he lies practically every time he opens his mouth so why would they care if it's under oath?
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Old 20th August 2019, 01:27 AM   #187
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I doubt the Senate would convict even if Trump got caught lying under oath. They don't care that he lies practically every time he opens his mouth so why would they care if it's under oath?
He has been caught lying under oath. One of the things that came out of Mueller's testimony was a) that the written answers to Mueller's question were under oath and, b) that they were contradicted by established facts.
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Old 20th August 2019, 01:54 AM   #188
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If you're the House of Representatives and you don't expect the Republican Senators to vote to convict, you send it to them just the same, not only because it's your duty, but also to force them to actually take that stand in public. Deny them the ability to pretend later on that they would have done the right thing if only they'd been given a chance.
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Old 20th August 2019, 07:41 AM   #189
Squeegee Beckenheim
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The #4 House Democrat now backs an impeachment inquiry
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Old 20th August 2019, 08:03 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The number 4 Democrat, Rep. Ben Ray Luján, is now in support of moving forward with impeachment
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Beat ya to it Squeegee!

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What on Earth is his tax return going to do?

He's openly racist, openly xenophobic, so deep in Putin's pocket he's got Putin's keys stuck in his comb-over, runs concentration camps, mocked a disabled person, and those are just the ones that I can rattle off of the top of my head, and his supporters have either denied or rationalized ALL... OF.... THAT and you think his goddamn tax returns are going to shock them?
You seem to have this fundamental misunderstanding that Trump supporters are the targeted audience. I don't give a **** about Trump supporters. I want this done because it's the right thing to do. I want it done because this man broke the law repeatedly, and he deserves to go through the process. I want this done because I want to believe that the political party I most align with has some ******* balls to stand up for the law. I want this done because I'm sick of that miserable **** getting away with everything, and even if he isn't found guilty, as previously mentioned, we can take the Senators that defend him to task. I want this done because it's the ******* process designed when you have a dumbass bitch like Trump in office that acts the way he does.

Nothing will change Trump supporters minds. They're ******* dumb. They see all this **** and they have no issues with what he does. Again, they aren't the target audience. I'd rather try and fail than tuck tail and run. **** that.
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Old 20th August 2019, 08:05 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You seem to have this fundamental misunderstanding that Trump supporters are the targeted audience. I don't give a **** about Trump supporters. I want this done because it's the right thing to do.
I don't give a **** (there some asterisks so you can understand it better) about the Dems needing some feel good "Yay we're doing stuff" moral victory nonsense.

I want Trump out of office and this is counter-productive to that.
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Old 20th August 2019, 08:07 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't give a **** (there some asterisks so you can understand it better) about the Dems needing some feel good "Yay we're doing stuff" moral victory nonsense. I want Trump out of office and this is counter-productive to that.
So you claim anyway. You've provided **** all for evidence to support it, but you've certainly screamed it from the mountaintops.

Yeah, I swear. I'm glad you guys can continuously ******* cry about it. Good Lord.

This isn't feel good, it's an admitted fact that he's lied, broken the law, and caused turmoil with our allies. You have no clue at all if this will cause him to get re-elected or if it will be his downfall. Stop acting like you've proven some **** because if you want to act like that, ******* prove something.
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Last edited by plague311; 20th August 2019 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 20th August 2019, 08:25 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Why is he so reluctant to disclose them? Surely there is no noble principle Trump is standing on keeping them secret.

POTUSes have a right to IRS privacy?
You're missing the point. You and I might think it would be revealing to have them. But are GOP critters in the senate going to convict him one way or another? No.
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Old 20th August 2019, 08:53 AM   #194
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I want Trump out of office and this is counter-productive to that.
How is investigating him for crimes in a manner that can uncover evidence other investigations can't counter-productive to getting him out of office?
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Old 20th August 2019, 08:58 AM   #195
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Serious question: What evidence of money laundering would likely be found in personal tax returns?
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Old 20th August 2019, 09:02 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Serious question: What evidence of money laundering would likely be found in personal tax returns?
I can't speak for others because I'm not familiar with the process, but I'd assume there's a way. If there weren't it wouldn't make much sense to do it.

I would bet dimes to donuts that a forensic tax specialist would be able to find something though. I am also positive that Trump itemizes which means things would have to match up.
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Old 20th August 2019, 02:07 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think it's imperative that the Dems either take the White House or make major gains in the Senate in 2020 or they are gonna impeach Trump all the way into a Dictatorship gift wrapped for him.

Impeachment is nothing (worse then nothing since there will be a backlash) without conviction and a conviction would require getting 2/3s of a 53-45 Republican majority Senate to vote against the President. Not going to happen and it will hand jump a major victory narrative to role into 2020 with.

I get that I'm like the lone voice in this but an impeachment that goes nowhere is more dangerous then no impeachment at all.
I agree. The Democrats, at this point, should be concentrating on winning the 2020 election. That is the surest, and at this point, probably the quickest way of getting rid of Trump. Taking control of the Senate would also be good, for a variety of reasons (confirming or denying judge and executive appointments being perhaps the most important).
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Old 20th August 2019, 02:24 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Serious question: What evidence of money laundering would likely be found in personal tax returns?
I don't know if the IRS would normally try to look for that when auditing someone like Trump, but unless you were looking for money laundering by relating declarations to other information, I don't think you could see it in just an individual return. The whole idea of money laundering is that it's superficially legal transactions.
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Old 20th August 2019, 04:51 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Serious question: What evidence of money laundering would likely be found in personal tax returns?
Unlikely. Also unlikely that he did any money laundering. Probably the tax returns would expose his inflated income claims, damaging his fragile ego.
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Old 20th August 2019, 04:59 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Unlikely. Also unlikely that he did any money laundering. Probably the tax returns would expose his inflated income claims, damaging his fragile ego.
The guy is 70 years old. Whatever he was going to become, he became long ago. If his ego really were fragile, it would have shattered in 2000, if not before. I think the more likely problem is that Trump's ego is more or less impervious to damage.
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