ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags cold reading , mediums , psychics

Reply
Old 29th August 2019, 02:56 PM   #241
AmyW
Thinker
 
AmyW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yes, an oft neglected aspect of Scorpion's position. As far as Scorpion is concerned, all suffering in this world is caused by Karma. And we cannot rightfully interfere with Karma because reasons.

Therefore we should make no attempt to alleviate the suffering of others because that would simply mess with their Karma which has required them to learn....something.

Now, personally, I have various charities on direct debit. Worthy causes all. In Scorpion's worldview, I should stop all such contributions because I am directly interfering with their Karma, and those victims not only could and should be suffering, but my interference guarantees that they will simply have to do it again.

At base, Scorpion is attempting to not give a rat's patootie about anyone else but the self. That is flat out narcissism. I suspect that Scorpion has not thought through where his claims inevitably end.

Let me give a concrete example. I have often stopped by the roadside to help out some stranger with a flat tire or such like. That is simple humanity to me. In Scorpion's world it would be wrong for me to do so because that flat tire is a result of that strangers Karma and to assist would obviate the pain that person must feel to expiate whatever bad Karma they had accumulated.

Now, I am certain that the perspicacious will glom onto where Scorpions inevitable conclusion will be. It is not a pretty place.
Exactly, what a loud of nonsense. No disrespect Scorpion but it's a dangerous way to think, very dangerous! Spirituality is delusional, it's new age bs!
AmyW is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2019, 03:01 PM   #242
AmyW
Thinker
 
AmyW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Just because the advice is general, and applies to most people, doesn't mean it can't be good advice for you. If it made an impact on you, think about why. If you like to help other people through their pain and problems, and are good at it, good for you and keep at it! If you need to love yourself more and put more joy into your own life in order to be even better at helping others, then look into ways you might try to do that. (Of course that's far from simple advice to follow!)

The ideas aren't contaminated somehow, just because a psychic practitioner uttered them.
Thank you, it just frightened me that she seemed to know me and my core values. I do honour helping others but neglect myself somewhat. I am a very good mother but not the best at loving myself. It just is odd how she knew that. It causes anxiety because Religion has always been a negative for me, if somehow psychics are real, then maybe god is real (that's my train of thought)
AmyW is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2019, 05:48 PM   #243
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,376
Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Is this what the bible says?
The church I went to would have said that psychics aren't talking to spirits, they're talking to demons. Literally servants of Satan.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2019, 06:15 PM   #244
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,285
Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
This was a reading given some time ago. I most certainly am not speaking to any now and won't ever again. For some reason spirituality and religion does cause me anxiety.
I suffer from low self esteem and this medium claiming she can channel god spooked me. It amazes me that she really believes she can channel god, some even claim that there are bad spirits, it's insane that they believe these things. Claiming she can 'hear' god. Religion is dangerous in my opinion. I've been there and it caused a lot of anxiety. I remember being in a church service some years ago, there they were spouting about satan and how he impacts the things around us. Totally scared me !
I totally understand! It always gave me anxiety too. I half-blame my OCD on religion, in fact. My earliest exhibitions of those kinds of looping thoughts and obsessions and rituals were all centered around religion and fears about going to hell. The Bible story about Abraham being told to kill his son Isaac, in particular, scared me ****-less, because it made me think, "Wow. God will go that far to test people, that is pretty hardcore. How can I ever relax?" I always worried that God was trying to test me in different ways and developed all these rituals to try and prevent failing. It's hard to explain, but I think I definitely know what you mean about deep anxiety from that kind of spiritual stuff. I felt SO much better once I'd moved away from it entirely.

Of course, as a skeptic (), I do feel compelled to note that I could be confusing correlation and causation with regard to religion "giving" me OCD. Perhaps I'd have developed OCD regardless, and religious anxieties were just what my original symptoms centered around since that's what I was surrounded by as a kid. After all, I still have the OCD symptoms (though they're much more under control these days) - they just concern different types of things now. Either way, though, religion and spirituality can be stressful stuff. I think they can **** kids up, especially if they're presented too intensely in childhood.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2019, 07:14 PM   #245
LongFuzzy
Thinker
 
LongFuzzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 237
Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Thank you, it just frightened me that she seemed to know me and my core values. I do honour helping others but neglect myself somewhat. I am a very good mother but not the best at loving myself. It just is odd how she knew that. It causes anxiety because Religion has always been a negative for me, if somehow psychics are real, then maybe god is real (that's my train of thought)
This is the point so many have been trying to tell you.
She didn't know. It was just a general statement that you latched onto.
LongFuzzy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 05:18 AM   #246
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
I have posted this many times before, but if you people think mediums don't give detailed information then explain this. A medium told me I had a brother that died in the war as a baby. She told me his name which was Lawrence, and the fact he died because there was no equipment in the hospital because of the war. I went home and asked my mother if it was true and she said it was. She lost the baby because there were no oxygen tents.

These were facts and I did not know about it until I asked my mother, and my mother was not a spiritualist and had never been to the church. The medium was a lady from out of town and I had never seen her before.

This was in the 1970's before the internet and I do not believe the medium could have searched my family records. She knew because my brothers spirit was standing next to her, telling her about it.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 05:36 AM   #247
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have posted this many times before, but if you people think mediums don't give detailed information then explain this. A medium told me I had a brother that died in the war as a baby. She told me his name which was Lawrence, and the fact he died because there was no equipment in the hospital because of the war. I went home and asked my mother if it was true and she said it was. She lost the baby because there were no oxygen tents.

These were facts and I did not know about it until I asked my mother, and my mother was not a spiritualist and had never been to the church. The medium was a lady from out of town and I had never seen her before.

This was in the 1970's before the internet and I do not believe the medium could have searched my family records. She knew because my brothers spirit was standing next to her, telling her about it.
Yes, and we have answered this many times.
The key point -IMHO- is this: we only have your own account of what happened. Memory is, as I'm sure you're aware by now, very fallible. What you have here is your recollection of what happened, which may not be accurate. We've seen this in this very thread: AmyW said that the medium knew her mother was dead, but, when the actual words were examined, that isn't what the medium said at all. It is entirely plausible, given that this is exactly how mediums operate, that this is what happened to you.
It's a con trick, Scorpion. Sorry, but that's how it is. You need to start acknowledging this.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 05:46 AM   #248
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Yes, and we have answered this many times.
The key point -IMHO- is this: we only have your own account of what happened. Memory is, as I'm sure you're aware by now, very fallible. What you have here is your recollection of what happened, which may not be accurate. We've seen this in this very thread: AmyW said that the medium knew her mother was dead, but, when the actual words were examined, that isn't what the medium said at all. It is entirely plausible, given that this is exactly how mediums operate, that this is what happened to you.
It's a con trick, Scorpion. Sorry, but that's how it is. You need to start acknowledging this.
There is nothing wrong with my memory, because I asked my mother about it when I got home from church, and the fact she confirmed what was said reinforced my memory of the event. I was impressed that the medium told me facts like my brothers name.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 05:58 AM   #249
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 11,305
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
explain this
Cold reading, warm reading, hot reading, selective/inaccurate memory, pure chance … it's impossible to know which. I'm still inclined to think your mother set it up (or at least helped to set it up), for reasons that seemed good to her at the time. The only thing we can be sure of is that the explanation is not "spirits".
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 06:06 AM   #250
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Cold reading, warm reading, hot reading, selective/inaccurate memory, pure chance … it's impossible to know which. I'm still inclined to think your mother set it up (or at least helped to set it up), for reasons that seemed good to her at the time. The only thing we can be sure of is that the explanation is not "spirits".
You must be kidding, my mother never went to the church, and was not a believer, and did not like me going to the church. My stepfather even called me an idiot for going.

Also it could not have been any kind of cold or hot reading because I did not know I had a brother that died until the medium told me and when I got home my mother confirmed it. She seemed somewhat surprised but shrugged her shoulders and forgot about it.
But in later years my mother came round to my way of thinking and she said, the medium must have been the real thing.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 30th August 2019 at 06:16 AM.
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 06:33 AM   #251
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 11,305
Protest all you like, Scorpion, the fact remains that there is not a single good reason to think spirits exist. Your anecdote certainly does not qualify as a reason. Even if no mundane explanation could be imagined (and several have been), that would only mean that we do not have sufficient information to work out what happened. It still would not justify concluding that there can only be a supernatural explanation, let alone that it was "spirits".
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 06:46 AM   #252
kayle
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 334
a lady from out of town and I had never seen her before

Scorpion, how does this in any way proves that she did not know you and your family. I guess you have been asked this here before, but you repeated yourself, so
kayle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 07:05 AM   #253
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by kayle View Post
a lady from out of town and I had never seen her before

Scorpion, how does this in any way proves that she did not know you and your family. I guess you have been asked this here before, but you repeated yourself, so
There are around 400 Spiritualist churches in England and mediums circulate these churches. So a medium that gives a service is usually a stranger from out of town. You may see the same medium return after about a year. But this lady was new to me, and I had never seen her before.

So how exactly could some visiting medium from out of town know things about me and my family?
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 07:13 AM   #254
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You must be kidding, my mother never went to the church, and was not a believer, and did not like me going to the church. My stepfather even called me an idiot for going.

Also it could not have been any kind of cold or hot reading because I did not know I had a brother that died until the medium told me and when I got home my mother confirmed it. She seemed somewhat surprised but shrugged her shoulders and forgot about it.
But in later years my mother came round to my way of thinking and she said, the medium must have been the real thing.
It is exactly this kind of detail that undermines the credibility of your story.

If I was told something that completely disproved everything I had previously believed about hugely important topics like life after death and the existence of spirits, there is no way I would just shrug my shoulders and forget about it.
As has been explained to you many, many times already, everyone's memory is fallible. This is not a personal failing on your part: it's just part of being human.
It makes much more sense to me that this story changed in the telling over the years, which is what caused your mother to have her change of heart.
However, as I said before, as we have no record of these events, we will never know.
What you need, as you well know, is some kind of evidence we can look at now, not untestable anecdotes.
Have you got anything?
Oh, and if your memory of these events is so good, can you tell us the name of the medium in question? It might be possible to follow this up.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 07:18 AM   #255
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 11,305
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
So how exactly could some visiting medium from out of town know things about me and my family?
In literally thousands of ways. Mediums talk to each other. Members of spiritualist churches talk to each other. People talk to each other. And then talk to other people.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 07:37 AM   #256
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It is exactly this kind of detail that undermines the credibility of your story.

If I was told something that completely disproved everything I had previously believed about hugely important topics like life after death and the existence of spirits, there is no way I would just shrug my shoulders and forget about it.
As has been explained to you many, many times already, everyone's memory is fallible. This is not a personal failing on your part: it's just part of being human.
It makes much more sense to me that this story changed in the telling over the years, which is what caused your mother to have her change of heart.
However, as I said before, as we have no record of these events, we will never know.
What you need, as you well know, is some kind of evidence we can look at now, not untestable anecdotes.
Have you got anything?
Oh, and if your memory of these events is so good, can you tell us the name of the medium in question? It might be possible to follow this up.

My mother did not want me to get involved with spiritualists, and she shut her mind to it. She was probably a little shocked when I told her I got a message from her baby, who said he had grown up in the spirit world. I think she tried to put it out of her mind. But in later years she came to believe.

No I have no evidence, and I did not make any note of the mediums name because I only saw her once. I remember the names of other mediums, like 'Gay Muir' who told me how to close my aura, to protect myself from negative psychic energy. Trevor Williams, who's developing circle I sat in.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 07:51 AM   #257
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 12,116
Or the medium had friends in or from your town who knew the story. Mediums like to swap information with other mediums, build up their inventories. Or many other prosaic ways.
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 07:54 AM   #258
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
In literally thousands of ways. Mediums talk to each other. Members of spiritualist churches talk to each other. People talk to each other. And then talk to other people.
My mother and her brother were at a family gathering years later, and the subject of the message I received came up, My uncle said to my mother "you had a baby that died in the war, I didn't know that" My mother said, "I didn't go round telling everyone"

My mother had not even told her brother, let alone strangers.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 07:58 AM   #259
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,543
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
My mother did not want me to get involved with spiritualists, and she shut her mind to it. She was probably a little shocked when I told her I got a message from her baby, who said he had grown up in the spirit world. I think she tried to put it out of her mind. But in later years she came to believe.

No I have no evidence, and I did not make any note of the mediums name because I only saw her once. I remember the names of other mediums, like 'Gay Muir' who told me how to close my aura, to protect myself from negative psychic energy. Trevor Williams, who's developing circle I sat in.
A good piece of parental advice you should have followed.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:00 AM   #260
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 20,926
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
My mother and her brother were at a family gathering years later, and the subject of the message I received came up, My uncle said to my mother "you had a baby that died in the war, I didn't know that" My mother said, "I didn't go round telling everyone"

My mother had not even told her brother, let alone strangers.
Then what the **** are you even asking if you've already got all the answers with your super mental powers we don't have?

Stop starting the same topic from a different direction over and over.

You think ghosts are real. Good on you. You're wrong.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:13 AM   #261
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Then what the **** are you even asking if you've already got all the answers with your super mental powers we don't have?

Stop starting the same topic from a different direction over and over.

You think ghosts are real. Good on you. You're wrong.
I may be repeating myself, but some people, like the OP have not heard the story. If I leave it to all you atheists you will convince them mediums only generalise without details. But this medium told me the name of my dead brother, and the circumstances of his death. These were specific facts.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:13 AM   #262
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 15,579
Babies can grow up in the spirit world?

How does that work? I thought the whole point of the material world is to be a sort of MMRPG (multiplayer role playing game) for spirits to experience life so they can gradually get better at it and become higher spirits. Prior to this unsuccessful attempt at a new incarnation, Lawrence would already have been through numerous earthly incarnations and as a spirit he would have complete memories of them. He'd be ready to incarnate in some other newborn. What's gained by "growing up" in the spirit world instead? What does that even mean? Did he go to spirit elementary school, play spirit sports, go through spirit puberty?

It's these little slip-ups that give the game away. There's this whole elaborate spiritualist narrative about multiple incarnations and karma and retaining the memories of multiple lifetimes in the astral body and so forth. Then some medium goes and midichlorians the whole deal. "He grew up in the spirit world," because she was talking about a baby and it sounded good.


(midichlorian, v.t.: to suddenly, for momentary convenience, introduce a plot detail that calls the fundamental basis of an established canon into question)
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...

Last edited by Myriad; 30th August 2019 at 08:19 AM.
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:15 AM   #263
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 20,926
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I may be repeating myself, but some people, like the OP have not heard the story. If I leave it to all you atheists you will convince them mediums only generalise without details. But this medium told me the name of my dead brother, and the circumstances of his death. These were specific facts.
I do not believe you. I have no reason to believe you. I have no reason to believe you even if you are being honest.

The events you are describing did not happen as you describe them either by dishonesty or misunderstanding is far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far more likely then "We need to rewrite our entire view of reality to account for ghosts."
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:15 AM   #264
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 12,116
And was he sexually and otherwise abused in the spirit world to learn these "important lessons" and to "grow"? If not then such experiences are not in fact needed for development.
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:20 AM   #265
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Babies can grow up in the spirit world?

How does that work? I thought the whole point of the material world is to be a sort of MMRPG (multiplayer role playing game) for spirits to experience life so they can gradually get better at it and become higher spirits. Prior to this unsuccessful attempt at a new incarnation, Lawrence would already have been through numerous earthly incarnations and as a spirit he would have complete memories of them. He'd be ready to incarnate in some other newborn. What's gained by "growing up" in the spirit world instead? What does that even mean? Did he go to spirit elementary school, play spirit sports, go through spirit puberty?
I believe there are kindergarten schools in the spirit world where babies are looked after until they grow to maturity. Spirits do not remember their previous incarnations until the end of their cycle of reincarnations.

By this time, my brother may have chosen to reincarnate, and maybe I will never meet him when I die. I do not know because I no longer attend church, so I don't get any new messages.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:21 AM   #266
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 11,305
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
My mother and her brother were at a family gathering years later, and the subject of the message I received came up, My uncle said to my mother "you had a baby that died in the war, I didn't know that" My mother said, "I didn't go round telling everyone"

My mother had not even told her brother, let alone strangers.
And yet there would have been people who knew, who she did tell or who found out in one of any number of different ways. And those people would have talked to other people.

Trying to guess the exact sequence of events which led to the medium being able to tell you something about your family you didn't know is virtually impossible. That does justify your assumption that the explanation could only be supernatural.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:24 AM   #267
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
And was he sexually and otherwise abused in the spirit world to learn these "important lessons" and to "grow"? If not then such experiences are not in fact needed for development.
I appreciate the sarcasm, but the answer is sex is neutral in the spirit world.
We do not have physical desires in the spirit body. Sex is primarily for reproduction, and spirits do not reproduce.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:27 AM   #268
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 11,305
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I may be repeating myself, but some people, like the OP have not heard the story. If I leave it to all you atheists you will convince them mediums only generalise without details. But this medium told me the name of my dead brother, and the circumstances of his death. These were specific facts.
Nobody has said mediums only generalise without details. They do that a lot, but if they have specific information (obtained in any one of numerous ways) of course they will use it.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:32 AM   #269
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,285
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I believe there are kindergarten schools in the spirit world where babies are looked after until they grow to maturity. .
I don't want to sound like an arse, but - seriously, dude?

That makes no sense whatsoever. My boyfriend believes in reincarnation, and I think it's sort of a fun speculative idea in its rawest form (though I wouldn't say I accept it). But this bit about growing up in the spirit world doesn't even fit with its precepts. You're making things up as you go, and anything that doesn't make sense, you handwave away with, "Oh well, spirits. They work in mysterious ways. Sometimes they grow up, sometimes they come back, it's all good. Just free your mind, consistency is overrated."

It's your business what you want to believe, but if you post it publicly for comment, you can't expect everyone to just ignore the inherent wackiness. Please let me state outright, though, that I don't want to mock your condition. I don't know how much of your certainty about your belief system derives from the schizophrenia you mentioned, so I do want to tread carefully. I guess pseudoreligious hippy-dippy mediums just really piss me off. I hate to see people swallowing their glurgy stories, for any reason. Not commenting almost causes me physical pain.

These people are ridiculous. Spirit kindergarten, honestly. What a creepy idea. Who would derive comfort from that?
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:34 AM   #270
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 12,116
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I appreciate the sarcasm, but the answer is sex is neutral in the spirit world.
We do not have physical desires in the spirit body. Sex is primarily for reproduction, and spirits do not reproduce.

You will note the "and otherwise abused" in my post. You have elsewhere claimed that suffering is to teach us lessons and help us grow and yet now you claim it's unnecessary.
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:35 AM   #271
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 20,926
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I don't want to sound like an arse, but - seriously, dude?
Probably not. This smells more like an skit then anything else.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:42 AM   #272
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I don't want to sound like an arse, but - seriously, dude?

That makes no sense whatsoever. My boyfriend believes in reincarnation, and I think it's sort of a fun speculative idea in its rawest form (though I wouldn't say I accept it). But this bit about growing up in the spirit world doesn't even fit with its precepts. You're making things up as you go, and anything that doesn't make sense, you handwave away with, "Oh well, spirits. They work in mysterious ways. Sometimes they grow up, sometimes they come back, it's all good. Just free your mind, consistency is overrated."

It's your business what you want to believe, but if you post it publicly for comment, you can't expect everyone to just ignore the inherent wackiness. Please let me state outright, though, that I don't want to mock your condition. I don't know how much of your certainty about your belief system derives from the schizophrenia you mentioned, so I do want to tread carefully. I guess pseudoreligious hippy-dippy mediums just really piss me off. I hate to see people swallowing their glurgy stories, for any reason. Not commenting almost causes me physical pain.

These people are ridiculous. Spirit kindergarten, honestly. What a creepy idea. Who would derive comfort from that?
What else do you think could happen to a baby that dies? It must slowly develop mentally in the spirit world, and its body grows to the prime of life.
Old people who die grow backward to the prime of life and remain in that status.

You do not have to tread carefully with regard to my mental status. I have been through mental hell on earth and survived it.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:45 AM   #273
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,285
Is the idea that when we die our consciousness just ends really that awful? I've always found it a bit comforting.

I recall what was probably my first existential crisis. I was really young, probably 4 at the oldest, and the memory is fuzzy, but still emotionally powerful. My parents had just finished giving me what was supposed to be a comforting spiel about heaven and people living there forever after they die, and I suddenly found myself filled with a horror I couldn't even begin to articulate. I thought about what living forever truly meant. Just the idea of something going on forever, WITHOUT END, was terrifying to me. I started to cry and freak out, running around the house and refusing to go to bed. My folks honestly couldn't understand why I was scared. They still probably couldn't.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:50 AM   #274
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,285
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
What else do you think could happen to a baby that dies? It must slowly develop mentally in the spirit world, and its body grows to the prime of life.
Old people who die grow backward to the prime of life and remain in that status.

You do not have to tread carefully with regard to my mental status. I have been through mental hell on earth and survived it.
Well, I think a baby that dies just dies. The end. Very sad, but just the way it is. But let's go with my boyfriend's worldview for a minute, since he believes in reincarnation, and we've discussed it a number of times.

According to him, a baby that dies (or anything that dies) releases its spirit and re-joins the collective spiritual consciousness of the world. Some time later (as "time," the way we understand it, has no meaning in the spirit world), the spirit comes into something else that is being born. It could be another human baby, an animal, a plant, or whatever. It could happen instantaneously (again, from our human perspective of time), or it could happen thousands of years later. Spirits do not have "lives" and singular consciousness during that period, they are just part of a collective whole.

While there are still some obvious logical problems with this framework, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than spirit primary schools and backwards aging and whatever else you're proposing. I find your view needlessly complicated, and I almost wonder if you are joking.


ETA - At any rate, I'm glad you're feeling okay mentally now, and that you're so willing to talk about your experiences. That is valuable.

Last edited by isissxn; 30th August 2019 at 08:52 AM.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:50 AM   #275
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 15,579
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I believe there are kindergarten schools in the spirit world where babies are looked after until they grow to maturity.

That makes no sense in the context of the overall spiritualist narrative. Are there also hospitals that cure Grampa's Alzheimers after he's passed on, so he can understand and answer the mediums who are relaying questions from their family?

If there's a spirit world elementary school, wouldn't it make more sense to attend it prior to the tricky and bad-karma-risking process of going through an incarnated lifetime?

Quote:
Spirits do not remember their previous incarnations until the end of their cycle of reincarnations.

Then how do they answer questions from mediums about their previous incarnation?

Also, in the spirit world, why would they not remember their previous incarnations? I can almost see how starting a new incarnation without previous memories could be useful. Avoids spoilers, allows one to learn different ways of experiencing the world without biases from previous experiences, and so forth. You get to read Lord of the Rings for the first time again. But how are they (we) supposed to learn anything from the whole process, if they (we) keep getting mind-wiped even in the spirit world?

Quote:
By this time, my brother may have chosen to reincarnate, and maybe I will never meet him when I die. I do not know because I no longer attend church, so I don't get any new messages.

Well, let's see. The war years (assuming wwII), add time for spirit infancy and spirit kindergarten, then a few years of work-study and time off to tour spirit Europe, carry the two... Lawrence could be me.

In fact, let's just say I am Lawrence, because whether I actually am or not makes absolutely no discernible difference (due to all the mind-wiping going on in this cruel and hopelessly inefficient spirit educational system) for at least several more lifetimes.

Hi, bro!
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:52 AM   #276
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,753
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
What else do you think could happen to a baby that dies? It must slowly develop mentally in the spirit world, and its body grows to the prime of life.
Old people who die grow backward to the prime of life and remain in that status.

You do not have to tread carefully with regard to my mental status. I have been through mental hell on earth and survived it.
It decomposes, small bugs will feed on its flesh until it's only bone.

I have to be frank. What the **** are you talking about?

I have heard wild stuff before.

I've been in the bowels of a David Icke forum that I can honestly say I thought had the most far-out statements I had ever read.

I have read 2 L.R Hubbard books

Still, Your comment has me floored with its raw, brutal unflinching lunacy.
__________________
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
If you see a Nazi. Egg them
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 08:57 AM   #277
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Is the idea that when we die our consciousness just ends really that awful? I've always found it a bit comforting.

I recall what was probably my first existential crisis. I was really young, probably 4 at the oldest, and the memory is fuzzy, but still emotionally powerful. My parents had just finished giving me what was supposed to be a comforting spiel about heaven and people living there forever after they die, and I suddenly found myself filled with a horror I couldn't even begin to articulate. I thought about what living forever truly meant. Just the idea of something going on forever, WITHOUT END, was terrifying to me. I started to cry and freak out, running around the house and refusing to go to bed. My folks honestly couldn't understand why I was scared. They still probably couldn't.
Funny, I was always scared of death when I was a child. But after what I have been through, the idea of permanent death does not scare me any more.

However the things I have experienced lead me to believe we survive death.
But we do not go on as we are for eternity. We incarnate many, many times in a long cycle of rebirths until reaching a perfected status of mind and spirit. Then we end our cycle of reincarnations and continue to evolve as immortal spirits. We are not ready to face eternity as the limited human beings we are now, but as enlightened beings who have reached a state of grace, we will continue to evolve in the spirit world, reaching ever higher levels of consciousness.

We are not yet at the level of maturity of soul that will come in future times, and I have heard a spirit guide say our present level of evolution is something like early childhood of the race. It may take another million years for us to be complete.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 09:03 AM   #278
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Well, I think a baby that dies just dies. The end. Very sad, but just the way it is. But let's go with my boyfriend's worldview for a minute, since he believes in reincarnation, and we've discussed it a number of times.

According to him, a baby that dies (or anything that dies) releases its spirit and re-joins the collective spiritual consciousness of the world. Some time later (as "time," the way we understand it, has no meaning in the spirit world), the spirit comes into something else that is being born. It could be another human baby, an animal, a plant, or whatever. It could happen instantaneously (again, from our human perspective of time), or it could happen thousands of years later. Spirits do not have "lives" and singular consciousness during that period, they are just part of a collective whole.

While there are still some obvious logical problems with this framework, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than spirit primary schools and backwards aging and whatever else you're proposing. I find your view needlessly complicated, and I almost wonder if you are joking.


ETA - At any rate, I'm glad you're feeling okay mentally now, and that you're so willing to talk about your experiences. That is valuable.

The spirits I have heard from state they survive as individuals, not as a collective. It may be that in the end of our cycle of reincarnations and after we evolve some more as immortals, we will eventually merge back into God.

But there is no place in that theory for us to regress into animals. I specifically asked a spirit guide who was speaking through a trance medium the question,' do animals evolve to become human' and she said 'no' We are all separate species that evolve to perfection in our own spiritual family. Or soul group
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 09:15 AM   #279
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,122
Myriad, Diseases of the brain are cured by death. The spirit mind works without physical limitations of the earthly brain.

Spirits who die remember only their last lifetime, not all their previous incarnations. Those memories are stored in the soul body, which can only be accessed when we reach an enlightened state.

We may keep getting mind wiped, but the state of evolution of our soul shines through.
I heard the spirit guide of the late medium 'Ursula Roberts' say if we remembered our past lives before we were ready it might drive us mad. We could not deal with the things we may have done. Because we have been at lower levels of spiritual evolution in past lives, and may have done things then that would horrify us now.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2019, 09:20 AM   #280
wasapi
Philosopher
 
wasapi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,527
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I believe there are kindergarten schools in the spirit world where babies are looked after until they grow to maturity. Spirits do not remember their previous incarnations until the end of their cycle of reincarnations.
OK. I must say this: This is one of the weirdest, creepiest things I have ever heard. So, my baby granddaughter is 'up there', going to school in a classroom with other dead children? I'm now speechless.
__________________
Julia
wasapi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:43 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.