ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags atheism

Reply
Old 8th September 2019, 07:21 PM   #121
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,625
Iím just saying Iím not personally interested in formal philosophy as I donít think itíd get me better results than muddling through. If itís correct to say that Iím already doing street level philosophy or something, I wonít argue. I think youíre reading more hostility or negativity into this than I intended.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2019, 01:48 AM   #122
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,696
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Iím just saying Iím not personally interested in formal philosophy as I donít think itíd get me better results than muddling through. If itís correct to say that Iím already doing street level philosophy or something, I wonít argue. I think youíre reading more hostility or negativity into this than I intended.
Of course, many political, scientific or philosophical theories reach the street through the media and that's the information that ordinary people have. We can't be experts in everything. Although some pretend to be in the forums.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2019, 06:44 PM   #123
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,358
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Of course, many political, scientific or philosophical theories reach the street through the media and that's the information that ordinary people have. We can't be experts in everything. Although some pretend to be in the forums.
Now that's ironic.
__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned.
-Shepard Book
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2019, 03:12 PM   #124
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,611
Just to steer things back on topic. I was not optimistic as a believer so many years ago - being convinced I was destined for eternal punishment.

I wonder if others shared my dilemma.

Convinced I was damned, because I did not seek salvation by attending church and partaking in ritual, although convinced of the truth of the religion itself, as I had no alternative presented to me.

Not attending church because I felt repelled by. The monotonous singing, prayer, and boring sermons. "Stand up, sit down, kneel, recite after me." Christ what an ordeal! Do some really enjoy this stuff?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2019, 03:33 PM   #125
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 19,391
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Not attending church because I felt repelled by. The monotonous singing, prayer, and boring sermons. "Stand up, sit down, kneel, recite after me." Christ what an ordeal! Do some really enjoy this stuff?
I sometimes do.

If the music is right and the officiant is good, I can have a good experience at church. Over Christmas we went to a church in a beach town and everyone was very casual, local and tourists alike. The priest was very upbeat and positive and I really enjoyed the service. Christmas hymns are always fun to sing and my kids are always embarrassed by my joy in singing out loud, even as they are now moving into adulthood.

Not my first choice of what to do that day, but I had a good time. And the people we were traveling with appreciated the we fit it into our schedule as it was important to them.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2019, 04:19 PM   #126
wasapi
Philosopher
 
wasapi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,393
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I sometimes do.

If the music is right and the officiant is good, I can have a good experience at church. Over Christmas we went to a church in a beach town and everyone was very casual, local and tourists alike. The priest was very upbeat and positive and I really enjoyed the service. Christmas hymns are always fun to sing and my kids are always embarrassed by my joy in singing out loud, even as they are now moving into adulthood.

Not my first choice of what to do that day, but I had a good time. And the people we were traveling with appreciated the we fit it into our schedule as it was important to them.
Music was what I liked about religion, and I sampled many different types of religion over the years, but the music I loved. Some I still do. Ava Maria can tear me up, for example. Some times I would go to a small, country, Catholic Church, where they had guitarists that sang, and I loved it.
__________________
Julia
wasapi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2019, 10:37 PM   #127
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 24,335
Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Music was what I liked about religion, and I sampled many different types of religion over the years, but the music I loved. Some I still do. Ava Maria can tear me up, for example. Some times I would go to a small, country, Catholic Church, where they had guitarists that sang, and I loved it.

The church my family went to, Trinity Episcopal Church in Morgantown, WV, had what was (as nearly as anyone can determine) the very first live Christian Rock service in the world with the band the Mind Garage playing a service they composed, which they called an Electric Liturgy, on March 10, 1968.

This was your classic, huge, foreboding pile of stonework type of church, and the average parishioner was about what you'd expect for Episcopalians in 1968. The chaplain, Rev. Michael Paine, was also the chaplain for West Virginia University, and definitely didn't fit into the staid Episcopal mold. He felt like, "Worship patterns are too often dull and old fashioned. The church is missing a lot of people and it shouldn't." "It's not such a new idea", he said. "Bach used popular tavern songs in his music. We're merely trying to use the best resources available in modern music."

So he worked with a rock band to develop a service and brought 'em into the church.

In spite of a great deal of offended believers before the service, nearly everyone who attended left being quite impressed. Even deeply moved.

A quote from the local newspaper's article after the service;

"'I didn't know they were like THAT,' one woman exclaimed, "That was beautiful!"

I was thirteen at the time. In my own words, at that time, "It was really, really cool."



It wasn't a one-off, either. They performed their Electric Liturgy more times in M'town and then went on to perform it in churches all over the country, and on national TV. Even though they are pretty obscure now they made quite an impression then.

As well as secular music. They weren't a "Christian Rock" group, just a rock group who happened to be Christians who had also performed in churches. They made five (or thereabouts) very secular albums. They played at Fillmore East (among other substantial venues), and turned down an invite to Woodstock.

Good fun.

They can be found on YouTube, both secular music and the Electric Liturgy. This is the only fully assembled recording of the Liturgy I could find there. Lots of pieces of it, though.

****************************

(Note: It wasn't 'til I left the influences of Rev. Paine and his successor, the Rev. Charles Roberts, known to all his flock as "Snork", and was subjected to the Church of God clowns that my mother had fallen in with that I became seriously disillusioned with Christianity and religions in general. The CofG didn't stand up well in comparison to the sort of religion those two men taught.

If not for that, who could tell where my beliefs would be now.)
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

Last edited by quadraginta; 12th September 2019 at 10:45 PM.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2019, 02:39 PM   #128
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,611
So it would seem that some here had somewhat different experiences to mine.

As a child I was reluctantly forced to attend C of E and Protestant churches in an Eastern Melbourne suburb. The music was not inspirational and the services as boring as you could imagine.

My parents were not church goers but the parents of friends were. My parents condoned my brother and I being corralled by these folk as the attitude that: "A bit of religion will do the children some good." was their mindset - not uncommon in the community at the time.

My brother was always enthusiastic about going in distinct contrast to myself. Some years later he became a full blown "Born Again" devotee and joined the local Lutheran church. Attaining the status of "Elder" many years later he had an argument with the pastor. My brother wanted to liven up the service with some hip music and the pastor, (being something of a purist) disagreed. Exit my brother along with wife (doing as she was told like a good Christian woman) and kids.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2019, 08:08 PM   #129
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 24,335
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So it would seem that some here had somewhat different experiences to mine.

<snip>

Just to be clear, Rev, Paine and his successor, Rev, Roberts were both ... how shall I phrase this ... somewhat unique in their view and application of religious faith. Certainly in no way mainstream. Anecdotes abound, but would serve no useful purpose. After Snork Roberts left, that church quickly fell back into a much more mainstream sort of environment. Their tenures could almost be described as an aberration.

The Church of God which my mother subsequently began to attend was in every way a stereotypical evangelistic church, congregation, and pastor. It is somewhat surprising that I did not part company with them without a much deeper distaste for churches and religion than I did.

I attended one of their summer camps and even though I had won a free week at the camp for memorizing the most bible passages I was not invited back because the counselors found the questions I asked about those passages to be too disconcerting to them and too "confusing" (their term) to the other campers.

They gave me a bible as a replacement for the free week at camp. (A rather nice one, I admit. I still have it. King James, which rather surprised me. Definitely not an equal value for what they charged for the camp. Which didn't ... surprise me, that is.)
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

Last edited by quadraginta; 14th September 2019 at 08:11 PM.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2019, 01:43 AM   #130
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,014
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
You cannot abandon religion and continue to live like nothing has happen. This is the existential "nausea" that every one copes as he can.
Wait. Everyone does what now?

Quote:
Be lucid and search your way. There is not other that is valid for you.
"Everyone must find their own path." Deep.
JesseCuster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2019, 02:06 AM   #131
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,696
Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
Wait. Everyone does what now?

"Everyone must find their own path." Deep.
I mean everyone who doesn't choose a consolatory way. Lucidity implies the recognition that the world is absurd. That is to say, it is meaningless.
Of course, if you choose to look for an illusion that comforts you, everything seems easier. But it is an appearance. You cannot live eternally a drooling happiness.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2019, 02:17 AM   #132
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,014
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
You cannot live eternally a drooling happiness.
You can't live eternally at all, so I'm not really sure what point you're going for here?
JesseCuster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2019, 09:46 PM   #133
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,696
Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
You can't live eternally at all, so I'm not really sure what point you're going for here?
When I said "live eternally", I didn't mean eternal life. I meant that you can't maintain a state of happiness all your life by denying reality.
Death is part of the absurd, but not only. Open the newspaper, watch the news, enter a children's hospital... You will be surrounded by the absurd. "Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

My point is that lucidity begins with this. Other thing is delusion.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2019, 05:31 PM   #134
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 24,335
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
When I said "live eternally", I didn't mean eternal life. I meant that you can't maintain a state of happiness all your life by denying reality.
Death is part of the absurd, but not only. Open the newspaper, watch the news, enter a children's hospital... You will be surrounded by the absurd. "Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

My point is that lucidity begins with this. Other thing is delusion.

What does that have to do with atheists being inevitably pessimists?
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2019, 10:51 PM   #135
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,696
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What does that have to do with atheists being inevitably pessimists?
It is an explanation of why the alternative between pessimism and optimism is not correctly stated.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 10:35 AM   #136
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,860
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
That is why the question of this thread cannot be answered with a slogan.

Of course, atheism implies some dramatic question. You cannot abandon religion and continue to live like nothing has happen. This is the existential "nausea" that every one copes as he can. There are lucid ways and illusory ways.

But for all I know religious people are not free of this kind of nausea. They rationalize it in other ways like doubt, God's silence and distressing mystery of a terrible god.

I think that religious people are more prone to illusory ways that atheist. It seems more consolatory, in principle. But it is ironic that this illusory consolation leads them to new anguishes that come from a dependence of a terrible father. How do you be calm with an incomprehensible and violent father? It is useless that I constantly repeat that my Father loves me if I see how He treat his creatures.

That is why that questioning about the advantages or disadvantages of religion is an useless question. Be lucid and search your way. There is not other that is valid for you. The head-in-the-sand solution is not even useful for ostriches.
I really wish I understood what the hell you're talking about most of the time. No on second thought I don't. What a truckload of psychobabble bs.

You can absolutely abandon religion and continue to live as nothing happened. Other than a few religious morons trying desperately to reconvert me, little has changed. Not believing in a god is like not believing in Spiderman. It's irrelevant. Nothing happened. The vast majority of people I know call themselves Christians but never read the bible or go to church except for weddings and funerals. They are not really religious..that is unless you're talking football.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 02:49 PM   #137
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,611
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really wish I understood what the hell you're talking about most of the time. No on second thought I don't. What a truckload of psychobabble bs.

You can absolutely abandon religion and continue to live as nothing happened. Other than a few religious morons trying desperately to reconvert me, little has changed. Not believing in a god is like not believing in Spiderman. It's irrelevant. Nothing happened. The vast majority of people I know call themselves Christians but never read the bible or go to church except for weddings and funerals. They are not really religious..that is unless you're talking football.

"Psychobabble" ...... I though you made that word up, but there it is in my dictionary.

I agree that abandoning religion doesn't leave a hole in you're life. Unlike yourself most of my friends are atheist and don't seem to be searching for anything to complete their lives.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 04:52 PM   #138
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 24,335
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
"Psychobabble" ...... I though you made that word up, but there it is in my dictionary.

That one's been around quite a while and gets a fair amount of use. I'm surprised you evaded it.

Quote:

I agree that abandoning religion doesn't leave a hole in you're life. Unlike yourself most of my friends are atheist and don't seem to be searching for anything to complete their lives.

From my perspective atheism has led to a great deal less "searching".

I don't need to bother anymore.

__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 04:59 PM   #139
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,611
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
That one's been around quite a while and gets a fair amount of use. I'm surprised you evaded it.




From my perspective atheism has led to a great deal less "searching".

I don't need to bother anymore.


As Bill Maher once said:

"Thats what I like about being an atheist. It takes up so little of my time."
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 05:09 PM   #140
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,860
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
"Psychobabble" ...... I though you made that word up, but there it is in my dictionary.
I wish I had made it up.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 05:12 PM   #141
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,860
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
As Bill Maher once said:

"Thats what I like about being an atheist. It takes up so little of my time."
It's much more fun watching NFL Today than some pompous pastor prattle on.

GO HAWKS!!
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2019, 11:24 PM   #142
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,696
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really wish I understood what the hell you're talking about most of the time. No on second thought I don't. What a truckload of psychobabble bs.

You can absolutely abandon religion and continue to live as nothing happened. Other than a few religious morons trying desperately to reconvert me, little has changed. Not believing in a god is like not believing in Spiderman. It's irrelevant. Nothing happened. The vast majority of people I know call themselves Christians but never read the bible or go to church except for weddings and funerals. They are not really religious..that is unless you're talking football.
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
"Psychobabble" ...... I though you made that word up, but there it is in my dictionary.

I agree that abandoning religion doesn't leave a hole in you're life. Unlike yourself most of my friends are atheist and don't seem to be searching for anything to complete their lives.
I see you don't understand what I'm saying. I say so because you react aggressively and draw the wrong conclusions. Both things are linked. When someone become nervous his ideas become confuse.

At least you should have clear a thing: I am not defending any kind of religious thinking. I have said several times that religion is illusory, "coward" and dangerous. Do you realize this?

I suppose that you concede everybody the right to live the lack of religion in his own way. There is no obligation to be worried or happy or any other way. In my opinion there are reason to be happy and concerned at once. Both things are linked to the feeling of freedom. I can explain this if you want.

Last edited by David Mo; 19th September 2019 at 01:21 AM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 08:02 AM   #143
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,860
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I see you don't understand what I'm saying. I say so because you react aggressively and draw the wrong conclusions. Both things are linked. When someone become nervous his ideas become confuse.

At least you should have clear a thing: I am not defending any kind of religious thinking. I have said several times that religion is illusory, "coward" and dangerous. Do you realize this?

I suppose that you concede everybody the right to live the lack of religion in his own way. There is no obligation to be worried or happy or any other way. In my opinion there are reason to be happy and concerned at once. Both things are linked to the feeling of freedom. I can explain this if you want.
What conclusion should I have drawn from?

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Atheism implies some dramatic question.
What the hell does that mean? You do understand that atheism is simply the disbelief of a single claim? It's like not believing in Big Foot, The Easter Bunny, Spiderman or the Loch Ness Monster. There is no dramatic question. In fact, it's banal.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
You cannot abandon religion and continue to live like nothing has happen.
This is bull and a demonstration of ignorance on parade.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
This is the existential "nausea" that every one copes as he can. There are lucid ways and illusory ways.
Koo koo for cocoa puffs. This is nonsense.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.

Last edited by acbytesla; 19th September 2019 at 08:32 AM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2019, 08:13 AM   #144
Czarcasm
Groovy Groovy Guru
 
Czarcasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,079
Abandon religion? How can I abandon a club I was never a member of in the first place?
As far as being pessimistic is concerned, I see wonderful things accomplished by wonderful people every single day, and not one of those accomplishments were assisted by ghosts(holy or otherwise). Real, live people give me hope, show me love and inspire me to be a better me.
I believe in people.
__________________
The sun is out, the birds are singing and all is right with the world.
I loooove my meds!
Czarcasm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2019, 12:22 AM   #145
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,696
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Abandon religion? How can I abandon a club I was never a member of in the first place?
As far as being pessimistic is concerned, I see wonderful things accomplished by wonderful people every single day, and not one of those accomplishments were assisted by ghosts(holy or otherwise). Real, live people give me hope, show me love and inspire me to be a better me.
I believe in people.
"People" doesn't exist. It is a fiction invoked by all demagogues, from Roman emperors to US presidents. What you call "people" is divided into opposing factions. That struggle is often violent and cruel. Some "people" oppose others and end up in wars that are very popular. Even if it doesn't get violent, "people" is generally uneducated and cowardly. They submit to dictators without lifting a finger and even hate those who fight against dictatorships.

The only excuse people has is that it doesn't exist. Like God. Don't substitute an idol for other.

Another thing is that you know great people. Fortunately, there are many. Like there is evil, stupid and cowardly people. But neither of them are "the" people.

NOTE: I used "abandon" as an extreme circumstance of the choice between religion and unbelief.

Last edited by David Mo; 20th September 2019 at 12:25 AM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2019, 12:46 AM   #146
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,696
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What conclusion should I have drawn from?

What the hell does that mean? You do understand that atheism is simply the disbelief of a single claim? It's like not believing in Big Foot, The Easter Bunny, Spiderman or the Loch Ness Monster. There is no dramatic question. In fact, it's banal.

This is bull and a demonstration of ignorance on parade.


Koo koo for cocoa puffs. This is nonsense.
I don't know if you realize it, but none of the examples you've cited is God. They are myths, but not God the Father. God is the Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and what He does not explain now will be explained on the day of Judgment Day we will understand what we do not understand now. In order to achieve so many wonders, we only have to stop thinking on our own and submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.

If you believe that all that can be given up without surprises, many people do not believe it.

When I said that the choice (not just the abandonment) between having a Superfather and staying alone in the world was dramatic, I meant that it is not banal, but that it implies a very serious thing: the conscious use of freedom.

Of course, if you have achieved ataraxia and the continuous spectacle of the injustices and cruelties of this world and the death of a loved one do not cause you problems, staying alone in the world will seem banal to you. I didn't succeed in it. Ataraxia, I mean.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2019, 07:59 AM   #147
Czarcasm
Groovy Groovy Guru
 
Czarcasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,079
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
"People" doesn't exist. It is a fiction invoked by all demagogues, from Roman emperors to US presidents. What you call "people" is divided into opposing factions. That struggle is often violent and cruel. Some "people" oppose others and end up in wars that are very popular. Even if it doesn't get violent, "people" is generally uneducated and cowardly. They submit to dictators without lifting a finger and even hate those who fight against dictatorships.

The only excuse people has is that it doesn't exist. Like God. Don't substitute an idol for other.

Another thing is that you know great people. Fortunately, there are many. Like there is evil, stupid and cowardly people. But neither of them are "the" people.

NOTE: I used "abandon" as an extreme circumstance of the choice between religion and unbelief.
So sad.
BTW, how many religions have you "abandoned"?
__________________
The sun is out, the birds are singing and all is right with the world.
I loooove my meds!
Czarcasm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2019, 08:47 AM   #148
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,860
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I don't know if you realize it, but none of the examples you've cited is God. They are myths, but not God the Father. God is the Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and what He does not explain now will be explained on the day of Judgment Day we will understand what we do not understand now. In order to achieve so many wonders, we only have to stop thinking on our own and submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.
i don't know if you realize it. But gods are myths. We refer to Gods our ancestors worshipped as Greek, Roman, Indian and Norse mythologies. People just replaced those mythologies with a Jewish mythology...or a Mormon mythology or Muslim mythology etc. The fact is just like the Greeks couldn't prove that Zeus exists neither can you provide credible evidence of your or any god. So not believing in an unfalsifiable God is EXACTLY like not believing in Spiderman
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
If you believe that all that can be given up without surprises, many people do not believe it.
Huh? I don't care what others believe or don't believe. Relying on a other's beliefs is the ad populum fallacy.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
When I said that the choice (not just the abandonment) between having a Superfather and staying alone in the world was dramatic, I meant that it is not banal, but that it implies a very serious thing: the conscious use of freedom.

Of course, if you have achieved ataraxia and the continuous spectacle of the injustices and cruelties of this world and the death of a loved one do not cause you problems, staying alone in the world will seem banal to you. I didn't succeed in it. Ataraxia, I mean.
Who cares if you think it isn't banal? It is to us and there is no credible reason to believe we are mistaken. There is no dramatic question posed to those of us who don't believe in the unbelievable. You prattle on with nonsense babble. Having an imaginary friend doesn't make you less alone. It just means you have lost touch with reality.

I'm not at peace with this with this world. I expect every day to be a struggle. There appears to be an endless supply of challenges to take on and questions to be answered. I'm OK with that. That's life. What I DON'T DO is make up answers with bs. I don't worship the God of the Gaps. Doing that is weak and intellectually lazy. How about instead of filling in the answers with religious or philosophical babble, you start doing the work in finding out the actual answers? By the way, the first step in addressing the questions is being comfortable with not knowing and being able to say three little words.

I DON'TKNOW.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.

Last edited by acbytesla; 20th September 2019 at 08:56 AM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2019, 09:45 AM   #149
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,014
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I don't know if you realize it, but none of the examples you've cited is God. They are myths, but not God the Father. God is the Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and what He does not explain now will be explained on the day of Judgment Day we will understand what we do not understand now. In order to achieve so many wonders, we only have to stop thinking on our own and submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.
That is not what "God" means. That is an extremely narrow and idiosyncratic definition of God. If you insist that only people who have given up your own weirdly specific definition of God can do so without some sort of existentialist nausea, then you're not making much of a point. When people abandoned religion, they generally do so without believing in the oddball definition you just posted, so you're not really making any sort of point at all here.

I used to believe in God, and I gave up that belief without any sort of trauma. I didn't believe in the God you're talking about, does that mean I didn't really abandon a belief in God, because the God I believed in was different than what you insist God is, and wasn't really God at all?

This is rather silly.
JesseCuster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2019, 12:08 AM   #150
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,696
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
i don't know if you realize it. But gods are myths. We refer to Gods our ancestors worshipped as Greek, Roman, Indian and Norse mythologies. People just replaced those mythologies with a Jewish mythology...or a Mormon mythology or Muslim mythology etc. The fact is just like the Greeks couldn't prove that Zeus exists neither can you provide credible evidence of your or any god. So not believing in an unfalsifiable God is EXACTLY like not believing in Spiderman
Huh? I don't care what others believe or don't believe. Relying on a other's beliefs is the ad populum fallacy.



Who cares if you think it isn't banal? It is to us and there is no credible reason to believe we are mistaken. There is no dramatic question posed to those of us who don't believe in the unbelievable. You prattle on with nonsense babble. Having an imaginary friend doesn't make you less alone. It just means you have lost touch with reality.

I'm not at peace with this with this world. I expect every day to be a struggle. There appears to be an endless supply of challenges to take on and questions to be answered. I'm OK with that. That's life. What I DON'T DO is make up answers with bs. I don't worship the God of the Gaps. Doing that is weak and intellectually lazy. How about instead of filling in the answers with religious or philosophical babble, you start doing the work in finding out the actual answers? By the way, the first step in addressing the questions is being comfortable with not knowing and being able to say three little words.

I DON'TKNOW.
If you don't care what others think why are you arguing in this forum? If you have achieved total autonomy of thought and deed you are like God. Go fishing and let mortals take care of mortals' affairs.

Irony aside, what matters is not whether people take the truth as a drama or a revelry. That depends on the character of each one and the purpose of the life each one chooses. What matters is that you accept the truth and not depend on myths.

As for myths: God, Spiderman and Rita Hayworth are myths. They have one thing in common: they are exceptional beings that men invent. And they are different in many things: only God is the Superfather who explains everything because he knows everything and can do everything. For those who believe in him, of course. And that belief has very important practical consequences in the lives of those who believe in God. Of those that worship Rita Hayworth too, but to a much lesser extent. Don't tell me you don't see the difference between God and Rita Hayworth. (Don't make easy jokes, please).

Last edited by David Mo; 21st September 2019 at 12:22 AM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2019, 12:21 AM   #151
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,696
Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
That is not what "God" means. That is an extremely narrow and idiosyncratic definition of God. If you insist that only people who have given up your own weirdly specific definition of God can do so without some sort of existentialist nausea, then you're not making much of a point. When people abandoned religion, they generally do so without believing in the oddball definition you just posted, so you're not really making any sort of point at all here.

I used to believe in God, and I gave up that belief without any sort of trauma. I didn't believe in the God you're talking about, does that mean I didn't really abandon a belief in God, because the God I believed in was different than what you insist God is, and wasn't really God at all?

This is rather silly.
I don't know what god was preached to you but what I have said is what is read in the Bible and in the catechism that I was made to learn as a child (compulsory subject). From what I know of the Koran, it is not very different for Muslims. So when a convinced Christian abandons belief, it is in that Superfather that he stops believing. Unless he doesn't replace it with a similar concept. I was alluding to a Christian who becomes an atheist. No Superfather remains.

The "nausea" is a feeling that doesn't have to be overwhelming, but it describes quite well the responsibility one acquires when one assumes freedom from any religion. Now the guidelines for action are not set beforehand by a higher entity, but must be "invented" by oneself. And one can no longer assume that the world has a meaning, but it is one who has to create it oneself.
Of course you can create new idols to worship, to be told what to do without having to take responsibility for your own freedom. But that is not exactly lucid, but as illusory as the old religion.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2019, 12:28 AM   #152
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,696
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
So sad.
BTW, how many religions have you "abandoned"?
None. Rather religion abandoned me. I awake a day and it was not there. Since I was almost a child, I didn't worry too much. I still had my Zane Grey's novels.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2019, 02:08 AM   #153
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,028
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
If you don't care what others think why are you arguing in this forum? If you have achieved total autonomy of thought and deed you are like God. Go fishing and let mortals take care of mortals' affairs.
Actually, many of the gods people have worshipped through the ages have very much cared about what people thought of them. 'The Lord your God is a jealous God', for example, who needs endless grovelling, praise and sacrifices to keep him happy. Greek and Roman mythology is full of examples of the gods getting in a huff because of some real or perceived slight from a mortal. Muslims grovel 5 times a day, and will go to hell if they don't.
If the god or gods were content to 'let mortals take care of mortals' affairs', it would be a relief for everyone. Instead, there is constant strife about which god to appease, and how to do it.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2019, 04:44 AM   #154
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,014
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I don't know what god was preached to you but what I have said is what is read in the Bible and in the catechism that I was made to learn as a child (compulsory subject).
What you learned as a child is not the end all and be all of beliefs and concepts of God. Lots of people learn different concepts of God, with different attributes, behaviours, etc. Nothing special about the ideas taught to you as a child by your religious elders.

The definition you posted above is not universal. It is not some sort of standard belief that believers have. I know lots of people who are God believers and wouldn't accept what you posted as representing their beliefs. There's a huge variety of beliefs that fall under the idea of 'God'. What's so special about yours?

The Bible contains a load of nonsense that's insane, contradictory, wishy-washy, vague, etc. You can make up any definition of God you want by cherry picked and interpreting it as you wish. In fact, that's what people do.

Most people aren't Christian. Most Christians haven't read the Bible. Most Christian sects can't agree on what God is, what he does, etc. Why should we take what was taught to you as a child as some sort of correct belief in God that we should be referring to when we talk about losing faith in God?
JesseCuster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2019, 07:30 AM   #155
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,696
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Actually, many of the gods people have worshipped through the ages have very much cared about what people thought of them. 'The Lord your God is a jealous God', for example, who needs endless grovelling, praise and sacrifices to keep him happy. Greek and Roman mythology is full of examples of the gods getting in a huff because of some real or perceived slight from a mortal. Muslims grovel 5 times a day, and will go to hell if they don't.
If the god or gods were content to 'let mortals take care of mortals' affairs', it would be a relief for everyone. Instead, there is constant strife about which god to appease, and how to do it.
Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
What you learned as a child is not the end all and be all of beliefs and concepts of God. Lots of people learn different concepts of God, with different attributes, behaviours, etc. Nothing special about the ideas taught to you as a child by your religious elders.

The definition you posted above is not universal. It is not some sort of standard belief that believers have. I know lots of people who are God believers and wouldn't accept what you posted as representing their beliefs. There's a huge variety of beliefs that fall under the idea of 'God'. What's so special about yours?

The Bible contains a load of nonsense that's insane, contradictory, wishy-washy, vague, etc. You can make up any definition of God you want by cherry picked and interpreting it as you wish. In fact, that's what people do.

Most people aren't Christian. Most Christians haven't read the Bible. Most Christian sects can't agree on what God is, what he does, etc. Why should we take what was taught to you as a child as some sort of correct belief in God that we should be referring to when we talk about losing faith in God?
I'm not giving a universal definition of God. I am not referring to the religion of the Trobriand Islands or the animism of Cameroon. I am referring to the dominant religions in the culture of European and Meditarraenean origin. Primarily of Christian or Muslim origin. As for all the Christians I know, be they sects, churches or private individuals, they believe in a God like the one I have described with four or five main features. If there is anyone who does not believe in that, you tell us. And if it is to be excluded from my argument, I will exclude it.

I repeat:
God is the Allmighty Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and gives eternal life. In order to be elected, we only have to submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.

Last edited by David Mo; 21st September 2019 at 07:32 AM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2019, 09:47 AM   #156
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 24,335
I never really believed in the "God" of my parents to a much more significant degree than I had Sandy Claws or the Eastern Bunny (etc.).

I gave up churches and religion when I realized that, around the age of fourteen or so. I expect I had been building up to it for some time before then. It's just more prolonged when it's something your family seems to want you to continue to believe, unlike those other kiddy figures and fairy tales.

So there wasn't really all that much to "abandon". It isn't like there was a lot there to begin with.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

Last edited by quadraginta; 21st September 2019 at 09:56 AM.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2019, 09:50 AM   #157
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 24,335
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I'm not giving a universal definition of God. I am not referring to the religion of the Trobriand Islands or the animism of Cameroon. I am referring to the dominant religions in the culture of European and Meditarraenean origin. Primarily of Christian or Muslim origin. As for all the Christians I know, be they sects, churches or private individuals, they believe in a God like the one I have described with four or five main features. If there is anyone who does not believe in that, you tell us. And if it is to be excluded from my argument, I will exclude it.

<snip>

Sounds like a convenient fail-safe backup plan.

__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2019, 11:58 AM   #158
wasapi
Philosopher
 
wasapi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,393
Referring to the OP;

I believe that Robert Lancaster is a good example of an atheist who was NOT a pessimist. He had an incredible sense of humor.
__________________
Julia
wasapi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2019, 01:02 PM   #159
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,541
Taking a look at this thread, I'm mildly surprise that it went past...

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Having no underlying spiritual beliefs to mitigate suffering, are atheists inevitably seeing the world through a glass darkly?
No.


Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1 Corinthians 13:12
By the look of it, you're taking this verse out of context to try to back up a strange interpretation.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2019, 05:55 PM   #160
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,860
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
As for myths: God, Spiderman and Rita Hayworth are myths. They have one thing in common: they are exceptional beings that men invent. And they are different in many things: only God is the Superfather who explains everything because he knows everything and can do everything. For those who believe in him, of course. And that belief has very important practical consequences in the lives of those who believe in God. Of those that worship Rita Hayworth too, but to a much lesser extent. Don't tell me you don't see the difference between God and Rita Hayworth. (Don't make easy jokes, please).
More batcrap crazy nonsense.

Rita Hayworth was a real life human being. Born Margarita Carmen Cansino she appeared in 66 movies. Gilda is a must see for any cinephile. There is nothing mythical about her.

Spiderman is a fictional character as is EVERY GOD ever posited as best we can tell. Can you prove the existence of your 'supergod". I bet my ass you can't. I have yet to see credible evidence of any god.

Christians and Jews can no more prove the existence of their god Yahweh than Muslims can prove Allah or Norwegians can prove Wotan and Thor.

But go ahead, feel free to provide evidence of your imaginary friend. I'm waiting.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:02 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.