ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags atheism

Reply
Old 21st September 2019, 11:27 PM   #161
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
More batcrap crazy nonsense.

Rita Hayworth was a real life human being. Born Margarita Carmen Cansino she appeared in 66 movies. Gilda is a must see for any cinephile. There is nothing mythical about her.

Spiderman is a fictional character as is EVERY GOD ever posited as best we can tell. Can you prove the existence of your 'supergod". I bet my ass you can't. I have yet to see credible evidence of any god.

Christians and Jews can no more prove the existence of their god Yahweh than Muslims can prove Allah or Norwegians can prove Wotan and Thor.

But go ahead, feel free to provide evidence of your imaginary friend. I'm waiting.
You're delirious. You attribute to me statements that I have explicitly denied. Where did I say that God really exists? I have just written that Rita Hayworth, Spiderman and God have in common that they are illusory entities. (I am not going to explain to you why the myth of Rita Hayworth exists in the form of Gilda and not Miss Cansino, because that would distract us from the subject).

What I have told you several times is that the myth of God contains properties that other myths do not have. Not God, who is a fictitious entity, but his myth. You must agree with this, because you don't discuss it.

What surprises me most is that you try to deny one of the defining categories of the Christian God and the like: that he is represented as a Superfather. This is commonly admitted. I get the impression that you want to criticize what I say and you don't know how to do it.

Last edited by David Mo; 21st September 2019 at 11:32 PM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2019, 11:30 PM   #162
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Sounds like a convenient fail-safe backup plan.

It's just that I don't presume to know all the Christian sects in this world. Perhaps there is some strange sect that does not consider God the Father as a father. If you know of any, you can inform me.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 02:02 AM   #163
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I'm not giving a universal definition of God. I am not referring to the religion of the Trobriand Islands or the animism of Cameroon. I am referring to the dominant religions in the culture of European and Meditarraenean origin. Primarily of Christian or Muslim origin. As for all the Christians I know, be they sects, churches or private individuals, they believe in a God like the one I have described with four or five main features. If there is anyone who does not believe in that, you tell us. And if it is to be excluded from my argument, I will exclude it.

I repeat:
God is the Allmighty Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and gives eternal life. In order to be elected, we only have to submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.
This is not an answer to my post, and simply tacking my post on to a response to another point from someone else is, frankly, somewhat disrespectful.
Please note also that I explicitly referred to "the dominant religions in the culture of European and Meditarraenean origin. Primarily of Christian or Muslim origin". I have highlighted them in my post, in case you missed them:


Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Actually, many of the gods people have worshipped through the ages have very much cared about what people thought of them. 'The Lord your God is a jealous God', for example, who needs endless grovelling, praise and sacrifices to keep him happy. Greek and Roman mythology is full of examples of the gods getting in a huff because of some real or perceived slight from a mortal. Muslims grovel 5 times a day, and will go to hell if they don't.
If the god or gods were content to 'let mortals take care of mortals' affairs', it would be a relief for everyone. Instead, there is constant strife about which god to appease, and how to do it.
Your claim that the gods are indifferent to us is patently false. I should add that your claim that all they require is submission is also false (Job), and the records of all of these supposed deities show they are neither loving, just, nor even all male.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis

Last edited by Cosmic Yak; 22nd September 2019 at 02:06 AM.
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 06:54 AM   #164
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,926
I have never understood the existential angst thing, and never understood the craving for meaning.

What exactly is the problem if the universe has no meaning or if life has no meaning?

In what way is a God created universe more meaningful?
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 07:09 AM   #165
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This is not an answer to my post, and simply tacking my post on to a response to another point from someone else is, frankly, somewhat disrespectful.
Please note also that I explicitly referred to "the dominant religions in the culture of European and Meditarraenean origin. Primarily of Christian or Muslim origin". I have highlighted them in my post, in case you missed them:


Your claim that the gods are indifferent to us is patently false. I should add that your claim that all they require is submission is also false (Job), and the records of all of these supposed deities show they are neither loving, just, nor even all male.
You took an irony to the letter. I said that a participant in this forum seemed to believe that he was a god (irony!) and I asked him to stop believing that he was a god (irony!). You took it literally and believed that I said that gods are indifferent to humans. A misinterpretation on your part. The absent god is a myth of polytheistic religions very different from Judeo-Christianity and Islamism which are the ones I have in mind especially. As I said.

You underline your mention of the Greek gods of antiquity. I have already said that I am interested in the conflict that occurs in disbelief at the present time. Atheism in Hellenic times was lived differently than today. Even the word meant something else.

Certainly, being jealous was a characteristic of the patriarch (father) in Jewish culture. I don't know why you underline it. It is totally consistent with the concept of God as a Superfather.

I think you have a pretty confused idea of what I'm talking about. Therefore your arguments lose their way.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 07:19 AM   #166
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I have never understood the existential angst thing, and never understood the craving for meaning.

What exactly is the problem if the universe has no meaning or if life has no meaning?

In what way is a God created universe more meaningful?
God gives meaning to the life of the believer because he thinks that if he follows His commands he will gain eternal life. Paradise is the meaning of existence for him.

The unbeliever must seek meaning on his own. This meaning can be consciously oriented or he can let life push him back and forth like a puppet. Anguish is the consistent response to the question, "What do I live for?" It is the same as total responsibility and uncertainty.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 08:03 AM   #167
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,014
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
You're delirious. You attribute to me statements that I have explicitly denied. Where did I say that God really exists? I have just written that Rita Hayworth, Spiderman and God have in common that they are illusory entities. (I am not going to explain to you why the myth of Rita Hayworth exists in the form of Gilda and not Miss Cansino, because that would distract us from the subject).

What I have told you several times is that the myth of God contains properties that other myths do not have. Not God, who is a fictitious entity, but his myth. You must agree with this, because you don't discuss it.

What surprises me most is that you try to deny one of the defining categories of the Christian God and the like: that he is represented as a Superfather. This is commonly admitted. I get the impression that you want to criticize what I say and you don't know how to do it.
You keep blaming me and everyone else for misunderstanding you. Maybe you should turn that finger around. Your posts are a morass of babble. Why not try to make your posts clear to others and not just to yourself?

I see NO difference between one mythical being and another. Because from my perspective they are all first and foremost man-made fictional characters and not believing in one is EXACTLY like not believing in another. So it really surprised me when you added a non-mythical demonstrably real person into the discussion. As if that demonstrated something.

So what defining characteristic am I denying? Omniscient? Omnipotent? Omnipresent? Anthropomorphic? Unfalsifiable? It makes no difference to me how a theist defines their god because as best as I can tell they are not real.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.

Last edited by acbytesla; 22nd September 2019 at 08:57 AM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 09:04 AM   #168
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 88,167
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
God gives meaning to the life of the believer because he thinks that if he follows His commands he will gain eternal life. Paradise is the meaning of existence for him.

The unbeliever must seek meaning on his own. This meaning can be consciously oriented or he can let life push him back and forth like a puppet. Anguish is the consistent response to the question, "What do I live for?" It is the same as total responsibility and uncertainty.
Have you ever considered some people may be different to you?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 07:14 PM   #169
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,896
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Have you ever considered some people may be different to you?
I think it more likely that all people are quite different to him.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 07:20 PM   #170
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,896
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
God gives meaning to the life of the believer because he thinks that if he follows His commands he will gain eternal life. Paradise is the meaning of existence for him.

The unbeliever must seek meaning on his own. This meaning can be consciously oriented or he can let life push him back and forth like a puppet. Anguish is the consistent response to the question, "What do I live for?" It is the same as total responsibility and uncertainty.


This is completely wrong. Atheists understand that life has no inherent meaning. No anguish required. Just accept and get on with it.

I can see that your life must be hellish if you spend your time searching for meaning that does not exist.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 10:18 PM   #171
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Y
I see NO difference between one mythical being and another. Because from my perspective they are all first and foremost man-made fictional characters and not believing in one is EXACTLY like not believing in another. So it really surprised me when you added a non-mythical demonstrably real person into the discussion. As if that demonstrated something.

So what defining characteristic am I denying? Omniscient? Omnipotent? Omnipresent? Anthropomorphic? Unfalsifiable? It makes no difference to me how a theist defines their god because as best as I can tell they are not real.
Differences between God and Spiderman (let's leave Rita Hayworth for the moment):

The fundamental differences for our discussion have been summarized in the image of the Superfather.

I repeat:
God is the Allmighty Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and gives eternal life. In order to be elected to the eternal life, we only have to submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.

The idea of the Superfather is that of a superior being who has the power to protect those who believe in him and offer a supreme reward or punishment.The image of a Superfather are the typical characteristics of the religions that are dominant in European and assimilated societies.

No one who has reached the age of reason (normal people) believes that Spiderman exists. Obviously no one can believe that Spiderman is a Superfather to him if he does not believe that he exists.

I hope the highlights help you understand what you don't understand.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 10:19 PM   #172
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Have you ever considered some people may be different to you?
What makes you think that's not so?
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 10:32 PM   #173
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
[/hilite]

This is completely wrong. Atheists understand that life has no inherent meaning. No anguish required. Just accept and get on with it.

I can see that your life must be hellish if you spend your time searching for meaning that does not exist.
Don't you have a project for your life? Are you defending the virtue of resignation or that everything is fine?

When you discover that life has no meaning an alternative is presented: either indifference or giving the one you choose.
Indifference seems to me to be an essentially inhuman attitude.

Last edited by David Mo; 22nd September 2019 at 10:41 PM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 11:08 PM   #174
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,926
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
What makes you think that's not so?
Your language suggests you feel you are saying things which apply to unbelievers in general.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 11:25 PM   #175
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,926
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
God gives meaning to the life of the believer because he thinks that if he follows His commands he will gain eternal life. Paradise is the meaning of existence for him.
That only pushes the question further down the track. Why does an eternal existence with God have meaning?

Is meaning proportional to the length of the existence and the power of your friends?

Quote:
The unbeliever must seek meaning on his own.
If the unbeliever wishes to seek meaning at all. Some of us are OK with life having no meanings.

I don't even know what it means to say life has a meaning.

And if we do wish to seek meaning we don't have to do it alone.

There are many around us with whom we can seek meaning.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 11:49 PM   #176
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Your language suggests you feel you are saying things which apply to unbelievers in general.
I think there's a certain way of being an atheist that's inconsistent. On that I disagree with several people in this forum. Is there a problem with us discussing this? Am I obliged to agree with them or say that anything goes?
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2019, 11:54 PM   #177
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
That only pushes the question further down the track. Why does an eternal existence with God have meaning?

Is meaning proportional to the length of the existence and the power of your friends?



If the unbeliever wishes to seek meaning at all. Some of us are OK with life having no meanings.

I don't even know what it means to say life has a meaning.

And if we do wish to seek meaning we don't have to do it alone.

There are many around us with whom we can seek meaning.
Life has not a meaning. My life needs a meaning. And the meaning that I give to my life is the meaning of life that I create by means of my personal project of life. .
To give a meaning to life doesn't means nothing supernatural.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 12:02 AM   #178
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,926
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I think there's a certain way of being an atheist that's inconsistent. On that I disagree with several people in this forum. Is there a problem with us discussing this? Am I obliged to agree with them or say that anything goes?
Who said there is a problem discussing it?

Just don't tell other atheists what to feel about meaning, which is what you come across as saying.

And what, exactly is the inconsistency you see?
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

Last edited by Robin; 23rd September 2019 at 12:38 AM.
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 12:04 AM   #179
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,926
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Life has not a meaning. My life needs a meaning. And the meaning that I give to my life is the meaning of life that I create by means of my personal project of life. .

To give a meaning to life doesn't means nothing supernatural.
That is fine.

For me I am good with no meaning.

I don't know what it means to say that life has meaning. I don't see how having a project for my life would provide meaning.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 02:05 AM   #180
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Who said there is a problem discussing it?

Just don't tell other atheists what to feel about meaning, which is what you come across as saying.

And what, exactly is the inconsistency you see?
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
That is fine.

For me I am good with no meaning.

I don't know what it means to say that life has meaning. I don't see how having a project for my life would provide meaning.
Why can't I tell an atheist that he's making a mistake? Don't you think Christians make a mistake about this and that? Don't you say it to them? Why can't I tell an atheist? Because I'm an atheist? Is atheism a monolithic dogma?
I don't understand.

I think they are inconsistent because you can't abandon --or refuse-- a religious project and think you can live without an alternative project. And because the atheistic project implies certain theoretical and vital problems that some atheists don't want to ask themselves. (I am speaking of a vital project).

The meaning of life and the project of life are the same thing. A goal towards which the person is heading, consciously or unconsciously, and which conditions particular goals.

Last edited by David Mo; 23rd September 2019 at 02:06 AM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 03:52 AM   #181
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,926
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Why can't I tell an atheist that he's making a mistake?
Who said you couldn't? Certainly not me

Disagreeing with you does not in any way imply that you are not allowed to say the thing we disagree with.

Quote:
I think they are inconsistent because you can't abandon --or refuse-- a religious project and think you can live without an alternative project
You are welcome to say that.

I disagree.

I don't think religion needs a replacement.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 04:10 AM   #182
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,926
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I think they are inconsistent because you can't abandon --or refuse-- a religious project and think you can live without an alternative project.
.
To me it is like saying that anyone who has cast a millstone off must find some other heavy.weight to chain themselves to
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 06:42 AM   #183
The Common Potato
Thinker
 
The Common Potato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: The Scunthorpe Problem
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
What makes you think that's not so?
Everything you say. I used to be happy until I read your waffle. <<<--- this is not necessarily a serious comment.
The Common Potato is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 06:44 AM   #184
The Common Potato
Thinker
 
The Common Potato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: The Scunthorpe Problem
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
My life needs a meaning.
Good. Get on with it.
The Common Potato is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 06:52 AM   #185
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,896
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Don't you have a project for your life?
No

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Are you defending the virtue of resignation or that everything is fine?
Neither

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
When you discover that life has no meaning an alternative is presented: either indifference or giving the one you choose.
Why only those two? As a professed philosopher your thinking is very limited.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Indifference seems to me to be an essentially inhuman attitude.
And therefore......?
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 07:18 AM   #186
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,014
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Differences between God and Spiderman (let's leave Rita Hayworth for the moment):

The fundamental differences for our discussion have been summarized in the image of the Superfather.

I repeat:
God is the Allmighty Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and gives eternal life. In order to be elected to the eternal life, we only have to submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.

The idea of the Superfather is that of a superior being who has the power to protect those who believe in him and offer a supreme reward or punishment.The image of a Superfather are the typical characteristics of the religions that are dominant in European and assimilated societies.

No one who has reached the age of reason (normal people) believes that Spiderman exists. Obviously no one can believe that Spiderman is a Superfather to him if he does not believe that he exists.

I hope the highlights help you understand what you don't understand.
Again, that is a how theists may define him/her/it. Atheists don't define it that way. To us Gods are exactly like Spiderman, as in ENTIRELY MYTHICAL. If you don't believe, you don't believe. You're not giving up anything and no dramatic questions apply.

Now if you want to say that coming to reality for some former theists cause challenges in their life I would agree. But people and their situations are not universal. Much of it depends on how much religion played a role in their lives. If they and their families were heavily involved in a church and a religious community, they might have issues dealing with those people. And there may be issues without the structure and support groups that their church offered.

But the vast majority of Americans who identify as theists don't attend regular religious services and most of them don't belong to a church. Almost no one reads their bible. For them it is rarely is much of an issue.

And finally, there are atheists who never believed. These people just roll their eyes.

So the next time you decide to pull some far reaching ignorant claim about other people out of your ass, think. Better yet, don't.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 07:21 AM   #187
The Common Potato
Thinker
 
The Common Potato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: The Scunthorpe Problem
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I think...
Meh. That's where you started going wrong. Has it ever occurred to you that what we atheists (former Catholic public schoolboy, here) might actually know what we think and believe and don't need you to interpret for us?

I never believed in God - God of any type. i did believe in Santa Claus. My young self saw the evidence - presents arrived on Christmas Day. When you're six or seven, that's convincing. Then i saw presents in my mum's wardrobe. An existential worry? Nah, I grew up a bit and realised that Fr Christmas was a bit of BS.

Last edited by The Common Potato; 23rd September 2019 at 07:26 AM.
The Common Potato is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 07:31 AM   #188
The Common Potato
Thinker
 
The Common Potato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: The Scunthorpe Problem
Posts: 130
David Mo, Why do you need the verification of your ideas from the subgroup of a small hinterland of the internet?

Liverpool is the best football team in the world ever. I don't need anyone to tell me so. I'm probably wrong, but i'm not going to change my mind. That's faith.

Last edited by The Common Potato; 23rd September 2019 at 07:33 AM.
The Common Potato is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 07:36 AM   #189
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 88,167
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
What makes you think that's not so?
Your posts.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 07:37 AM   #190
The Common Potato
Thinker
 
The Common Potato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: The Scunthorpe Problem
Posts: 130
Stop being cynical, Darat!

Edit: did you nick my cat, Olympuss? It looks the same. :-)

Last edited by The Common Potato; 23rd September 2019 at 07:40 AM. Reason: cat
The Common Potato is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 08:09 AM   #191
The Common Potato
Thinker
 
The Common Potato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: The Scunthorpe Problem
Posts: 130
David Mo, What is your view on hepatitis B? https://youtu.be/48HoCwhlA80?t=422
The Common Potato is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 09:18 AM   #192
Czarcasm
Groovy Groovy Guru
 
Czarcasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,079
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Differences between God and Spiderman (let's leave Rita Hayworth for the moment):

The fundamental differences for our discussion have been summarized in the image of the Superfather.

I repeat:
God is the Allmighty Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and gives eternal life. In order to be elected to the eternal life, we only have to submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.

The idea of the Superfather is that of a superior being who has the power to protect those who believe in him and offer a supreme reward or punishment.The image of a Superfather are the typical characteristics of the religions that are dominant in European and assimilated societies.

No one who has reached the age of reason (normal people) believes that Spiderman exists. Obviously no one can believe that Spiderman is a Superfather to him if he does not believe that he exists.

I hope the highlights help you understand what you don't understand.
Nothing ticks me off more than the supposition that the only reason one might disagree with a premise is that one doesn't understand said premise-it hinges on the premise that you are incapable of being wrong. I understand you because I have been around people like you all my life, and I still think you are wrong.
__________________
The sun is out, the birds are singing and all is right with the world.
I loooove my meds!
Czarcasm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 03:41 PM   #193
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,926
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
When you discover that life has no meaning an alternative is presented: either indifference or giving the one you choose.
You have an unexamined premise there - that life must have meaning.
Quote:
Indifference seems to me to be an essentially inhuman attitude.
I am indifferent as to who wins the World Curling Championship. Does that make me inhuman?

It all depends upon whether or not the thing that we are indifferent to matters.

I don't see how it matters that life has no meaning.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 04:52 PM   #194
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,896
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You have an unexamined premise there - that life must have meaning.

I am indifferent as to who wins the World Curling Championship. Does that make me inhuman?

It all depends upon whether or not the thing that we are indifferent to matters.

I don't see how it matters that life has no meaning.
I speak for many Canadians when I say “Yes!!!”
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 07:19 PM   #195
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 24,378
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I speak for many Canadians when I say “Yes!!!”

In spite on not being Canadian I can concur.

It does not, however, diminish my weird fascination with watching the sport in play, regardless of who wins.

Yes, I know, I can probably get counselling for this, but it is such a harmless aberration.

Unlike the problem of who wins in the religion championships, which can have serious implications for the welfare of humanity.

I suspect the answer is much like the conclusion WOPR reached.

"The only winning move is not to play."
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 09:37 PM   #196
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,926
I knew I should have said "Quidditch".
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 11:07 PM   #197
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Again, that is a how theists may define him/her/it. Atheists don't define it that way. (...)
Now if you want to say that coming to reality for some former theists cause challenges in their life I would agree. But people and their situations are not universal. Much of it depends on how much religion played a role in their lives. (...).
I'm not talking about the definition of "god." I'm talking about the way believers imagine and feel their god.
I'm not talking about all those who declare themselves members of a church or belief. I am talking about those who really believe in a god that is similar to the so-called religions of the Book, because these are the religions that I know and have influence in our contemporary society.
I am not saying that all atheists consider the meaning of existence or, in other words, a vital project. There are those who do not consciously pose the problem and pretend that they have no life project. This is a mistake that I have tried to explain. Everyone has an idea more or less conscious of what they want to make of his life, which corresponds to that I call a vital project.

I am amazed that this so simple idea can provoke so many rabid responses and so few rational comments. You have a problem, truly.

Last edited by David Mo; 24th September 2019 at 12:27 AM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 11:15 PM   #198
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Nothing ticks me off more than the supposition that the only reason one might disagree with a premise is that one doesn't understand said premise-it hinges on the premise that you are incapable of being wrong. I understand you because I have been around people like you all my life, and I still think you are wrong.
What makes you think I think only I'm right? I am asking the question because I have already asked a couple of colleagues and they do not know what to say. Let's see if you can explain it to me.

When I say that someone hasn't understood me, I explain what the mistake lies in. The opposite is a very typical singsong of forum members who do not know what to say to an objection.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 11:20 PM   #199
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
Meh. That's where you started going wrong. Has it ever occurred to you that what we atheists (former Catholic public schoolboy, here) might actually know what we think and believe and don't need you to interpret for us?
I'm not interpreting you. I tell you that you are mistaken. Can't stand to be told that you're wrong?
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2019, 11:22 PM   #200
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You have an unexamined premise there - that life must have meaning.

I am indifferent as to who wins the World Curling Championship. Does that make me inhuman?

It all depends upon whether or not the thing that we are indifferent to matters.
The life project that gives meaning to our lives includes things that matter to us and things that do not. Except for hooligans, I don't think mass sport is important. Normally we give preference to our family life, friends, professional life, art, etc. As a whole, it's what we call "the world".

When I spoke of indifference, I meant total indifference, especially to important things. I think that kind of indifference is not human, because what is human is concern. That is, to be concerned about. (I think that "concern" is better than "worry" in English).

Last edited by David Mo; 24th September 2019 at 12:24 AM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:39 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.