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Old 24th September 2019, 12:28 AM   #201
David Mo
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Your posts.
Could you be more explicit?
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Old 24th September 2019, 02:30 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Could you be more explicit?
Sure.
Your ******* posts.
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Old 24th September 2019, 04:09 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The life project that gives meaning to our lives includes things that matter to us and things that do not. Except for hooligans, I don't think mass sport is important. Normally we give preference to our family life, friends, professional life, art, etc. As a whole, it's what we call "the world".

When I spoke of indifference, I meant total indifference, especially to important things. I think that kind of indifference is not human, because what is human is concern. That is, to be concerned about. (I think that "concern" is better than "worry" in English).
I don't see how indifference to whether or not life has a "meaning" would imply total indifference.

Obviously, by definition, we will not be indifferent to things that are important to us.
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Old 24th September 2019, 04:33 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The life project that gives meaning to our lives includes things that matter to us and things that do not. Except for hooligans, I don't think mass sport is important. Normally we give preference to our family life, friends, professional life, art, etc. As a whole, it's what we call "the world".

When I spoke of indifference, I meant total indifference, especially to important things. I think that kind of indifference is not human, because what is human is concern. That is, to be concerned about. (I think that "concern" is better than "worry" in English).
You remind me a lot of the lead character in the rock opera "Tommy". This character goes a particular path to receive what he considers to be "enlightenment", and naturally he wants to share his "enlightenment" with others, but he mistakenly determines that to achieve this others must think the same he thinks and go through the same experiences he went through. If you think this "life project" thing is necessary for you, that's just jim dandy, but that doesn't mean it is the only way to go.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:08 AM   #205
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If I understand correctly you claim to live without...

a) An idea about themselves, your capacities and weaknesses.
b) An idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
c) How to achieve some and avoid others.
d) How to relate to other people...

Caramba, you are very strange people!
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:09 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Sure.
Your ******* posts.
That doesn't sound very explicit.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:11 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Obviously, by definition, we will not be indifferent to things that are important to us.
Socrates has already said it: in the end, everything is very simple. You just have to know how to ask the right questions.

And how do you determine what's important from what's not?
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:19 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
If I understand correctly you claim to live without...

a) An idea about themselves, your capacities and weaknesses.
b) An idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
c) How to achieve some and avoid others.
d) How to relate to other people...

Caramba, you are very strange people!
Your conditionality is well chosen. Your starting point is that you understand your opponents to hold a position that they do not in fact hold, and that your opponents fail to understand a set of premises that they do in fact understand. In the circumstances, it's hardly surprising that your reasoning produces absurd results; but as a philosopher, shouldn't the drawing of absurd conclusions alert you to the possibility that your premises are urgently in need of re-examination?

Dave
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:20 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I'm not talking about the definition of "god." I'm talking about the way believers imagine and feel their god.
I'm not talking about all those who declare themselves members of a church or belief. I am talking about those who really believe in a god that is similar to the so-called religions of the Book, because these are the religions that I know and have influence in our contemporary society.
I am not saying that all atheists consider the meaning of existence or, in other words, a vital project. There are those who do not consciously pose the problem and pretend that they have no life project. This is a mistake that I have tried to explain. Everyone has an idea more or less conscious of what they want to make of his life, which corresponds to that I call a vital project.

I am amazed that this so simple idea can provoke so many rabid responses and so few rational comments. You have a problem, truly.
You just keep babbling on making less and less sense talking superior and acting like every one else are morons because they don't comprehend such nonsense.

Your original comment.
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post

Of course, atheism implies some dramatic question. You cannot abandon religion and continue to live like nothing has happen. This is the existential "nausea" that every one copes as he can. There are lucid ways and illusory ways.

But for all I know religious people are not free of this kind of nausea. They rationalize it in other ways like doubt, God's silence and distressing mystery of a terrible god.

I think that religious people are more prone to illusory ways that atheist. It seems more consolatory, in principle. But it is ironic that this illusory consolation leads them to new anguishes that come from a dependence of a terrible father. How do you be calm with an incomprehensible and violent father? It is useless that I constantly repeat that my Father loves me if I see how He treat his creatures.

That is why that questioning about the advantages or disadvantages of religion is an useless question. Be lucid and search your way. There is not other that is valid for you. The head-in-the-sand solution is not even useful for ostriches.
Not only is this nonsense philosophical babble it simply isn't true. It's not even close to being true. I compared gods to other mythical/fictional characters which to nonbelievers Gods are identical and they are. Then you suggested (ignorantly/stupidly?) that Rita Hayworth was mythical as well.

Quit blaming others for failing to understand your babble. Just because you think you make sense, doesn't mean you do.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 24th September 2019 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:29 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Socrates has already said it: in the end, everything is very simple. You just have to know how to ask the right questions.



And how do you determine what's important from what's not?
And we can be indifferent about whether or not existence has "meaning" and still ask those questions.

That is the point I have been making. Instead of simply accepting the premise "life must have meaning" I have examined it and asked - why must life have meaning? What does it mean for life to have meaning? What exactly is wrong with a meaningless existence?

Having found no good answer to any of those questions I have determined that it is not important to worry about such abstract metaphysical concerns and instead to look for what is really important.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:33 AM   #211
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And I am still waiting to hear what is so meaningful about an eternal existence ruled over by an omnipotent dictator.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:52 AM   #212
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Could it not in fact be said that an existence where we have to decide what really is important and what is not, is a more meaningful existence than one where all these questions have been pre-decided and we only have the option of obeying or facing vicious retribution?
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 24th September 2019, 08:04 AM   #213
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So before you can make the claim that atheists must replace the project of religion, you must first defend the underlying assumption that the project of religion was ever meaningful in the first place.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 24th September 2019, 08:15 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
And we can be indifferent about whether or not existence has "meaning" and still ask those questions.

That is the point I have been making. Instead of simply accepting the premise "life must have meaning" I have examined it and asked - why must life have meaning? What does it mean for life to have meaning? What exactly is wrong with a meaningless existence?

Having found no good answer to any of those questions I have determined that it is not important to worry about such abstract metaphysical concerns and instead to look for what is really important.
A plate of assorted cheeses and a Guinness (I like other stouts, also a full Lager would work). Preferably sitting on my patio watching a pleasant sunset.
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Old 24th September 2019, 09:34 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Traveler Steve View Post
A plate of assorted cheeses and a Guinness (I like other stouts, also a full Lager would work). Preferably sitting on my patio watching a pleasant sunset.
I still don't get beer. I don't think I've ever had one that I didn't want to spit out of my mouth for tasting awful.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:15 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I still don't get beer. I don't think I've ever had one that I didn't want to spit out of my mouth for tasting awful.
Just like the bitterness, or perhaps different flavors of it, I suppose.

Don't want to get dinged for being off topic, but perhaps this is a good example of the whole life meaning thing. I agree with the question of: why? Why does life need a meaning? Perhaps these light social interactions about beer are the whole meaning of life. Or not. Who knows?

I'll just keep muddling along and try to cause the least amount of harm, to others and the planet. About as close as I can get to any meaning.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:57 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Traveler Steve View Post
Just like the bitterness, or perhaps different flavors of it, I suppose.

Don't want to get dinged for being off topic, but perhaps this is a good example of the whole life meaning thing. I agree with the question of: why? Why does life need a meaning? Perhaps these light social interactions about beer are the whole meaning of life. Or not. Who knows?

I'll just keep muddling along and try to cause the least amount of harm, to others and the planet. About as close as I can get to any meaning.
It's not really off topic. If sitting back in a chair sharing a cold one with friends watching a sunset is how you define the meaning of life, who am I to argue with you? It's just not the meaning of life to me. If it was, I would have a permanent look of distaste on my face because regardless of the type of beer I can't stand it. That goes for Scotch too. My impression is nobody likes either at first but some way, somehow they develop a taste for them.
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Old 24th September 2019, 03:38 PM   #218
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 24th September 2019, 04:04 PM   #219
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Hmm... can't edit on Tapatalk. Postus interruptus above will just have to stay.

The important things can be sitting on the patio with you favourite tipple and a plate of cheese or a barbeque with friends. It can be helping your kids with homework, helping a charity, visiting old people for companionship, cheering your team at your favourite sport (even curling!) and a host of other things.

All these things have value. With or without any gods being involved.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 24th September 2019, 04:21 PM   #220
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Right now, I'm sitting in a suburban park on a sunny spring morning, drinking a coffee, waiting to pick the kids up from their last school event for the term. Catching up on my reading (when I'm not posting here)

Who needs meaning? This is meaning enough.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 24th September 2019, 05:42 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Right now, I'm sitting in a suburban park on a sunny spring morning, drinking a coffee, waiting to pick the kids up from their last school event for the term. Catching up on my reading (when I'm not posting here)

Who needs meaning? This is meaning enough.
Sounds good to me, but there is at least one poster here who still thinks your life has no meaning. Perhaps you should adopt one of the countless “ism’s of philosophy so you can over analyze yourself until you feel properly miserable.
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Old 24th September 2019, 08:35 PM   #222
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You hard hearted lot.

Don't you know that the greatest joy is in giving. David is crying out for confirmation that we are miserable and it will give him a real buzz if he gets it.

I'm miserable Dave ...... show me the way out.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:34 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Your conditionality is well chosen. Your starting point is that you understand your opponents to hold a position that they do not in fact hold, and that your opponents fail to understand a set of premises that they do in fact understand. In the circumstances, it's hardly surprising that your reasoning produces absurd results; but as a philosopher, shouldn't the drawing of absurd conclusions alert you to the possibility that your premises are urgently in need of re-examination?

Dave
You're dodging the issue with generic accusations that lead nowhere. The point is that I raised the issue of the original project (honestly, "vital" sounds a little corny to me) and you refuse to go into the issue.

Again, this is what an original project is:

a) An idea about themselves, your capacities and weaknesses.
b) An idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
c) How to achieve some and avoid others.
d) How to relate to other people.
And similar.

Don't you have an original project in your live? Truly?

Last edited by David Mo; 24th September 2019 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:40 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
(...)
It's not even close to being true. I compared gods to other mythical/fictional characters which to nonbelievers Gods are identical and they are.
You compare two things by limiting yourself to what they have in common and refuse to analyze what is different about them. And then you call me stupid. Great argument.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:43 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
And I am still waiting to hear what is so meaningful about an eternal existence ruled over by an omnipotent dictator.
Well, I've already explained it to you: that he presents himself as a protective Superfather who bestows eternal life. Does that seem like a small offer to you?
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:50 PM   #226
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You say you don't care that your existence makes sense.
I explained to you that when I speak of meaning of existence I am not speaking of anything "metaphysical", as the absent-minded person above says.

I have explained to you that the meaning of existence consists of an original project (or vital, if you like this word) that consists more or less of:

a) An idea about themselves, your capacities and weaknesses.
b) An idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
c) How to achieve some and avoid others.
d) How to relate to other people...

Don't you guys have anything like that?

(I'll bet you go to now start avoiding the question in a thousand ways).

Last edited by David Mo; 25th September 2019 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:03 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Could it not in fact be said that an existence where we have to decide what really is important and what is not, is a more meaningful existence than one where all these questions have been pre-decided and we only have the option of obeying or facing vicious retribution?
The two types of project make sense. Only one of them is based on an illusion, i.e. falsehood and has other negative things derived from it. You choose which one I am talking about.
It seems to me that you still don't understand what I'm talking about when I say "meaning of life". Meaning does not mean in this debate some spiritual thing, but to be directed towards an end. See my previous post.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:48 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's not really off topic. If sitting back in a chair sharing a cold one with friends watching a sunset is how you define the meaning of life, who am I to argue with you? It's just not the meaning of life to me. If it was, I would have a permanent look of distaste on my face because regardless of the type of beer I can't stand it. That goes for Scotch too. My impression is nobody likes either at first but some way, somehow they develop a taste for them.

I liked both the first time I tasted them. Perhaps a bit too much, as it turned out.

OTOH, I have never been able to abide the taste of bourbon, in any form, no matter how often I have tried it.

It quite literally makes me sick. Quickly. Back when I still drank, and was a serious, compulsive drinker, if bourbon was the only alcoholic beverage available I would go without. It just wasn't worth it.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:57 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Well, I've already explained it to you: that he presents himself as a protective Superfather who bestows eternal life. Does that seem like a small offer to you?
It's meaningless escapism. A life grounded in wishful thinking is not going to result in an optimistic world view.
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Old 25th September 2019, 12:11 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
It's meaningless escapism. A life grounded in wishful thinking is not going to result in an optimistic world view.
Of course. But some people believe that they can find some consolation in it. Optimism-pessimism seems an incorrect description for this case. Happiness is a too strong word. Consolation or refuge are better.
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Old 25th September 2019, 12:14 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's just not the meaning of life to me.
Are you saying your life makes sense to you?
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Old 25th September 2019, 12:17 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Well, I've already explained it to you: that he presents himself as a protective Superfather who bestows eternal life. Does that seem like a small offer to you?

"He" doesn't present "himself" as anything.

The humans who made up and continue to embellish those fairy tales have done all that.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 25th September 2019 at 12:19 AM.
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Old 25th September 2019, 01:06 AM   #233
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
You're dodging the issue with generic accusations that lead nowhere. The point is that I raised the issue of the original project (honestly, "vital" sounds a little corny to me) and you refuse to go into the issue.
OK, let's go into it.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Again, this is what an original project is:

a) An idea about themselves, your capacities and weaknesses.
b) An idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
c) How to achieve some and avoid others.
d) How to relate to other people.
And similar.
I have an idea about myself, my capacities and my weaknesses.
I have an idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
I have some understanding of how to achieve some things and avoid others.
I am able to relate to other people.

These are separate things in my life. I see no need or point in trying to erect a construct called "an original project" - or, as I suspect you mean, a religion - to shoehorn them all into the same ill-fitting container.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Don't you have an original project in your live? Truly?
Truly; because I do not choose to live my life according to your arbitrary, personal - and, in my view, pernicious and insignificant - set of definitions.

And it's "life," not "live."

Dave
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Old 25th September 2019, 01:09 AM   #234
Robin
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Well, I've already explained it to you: that he presents himself as a protective Superfather who bestows eternal life. Does that seem like a small offer to you?
That seems to dodge my question. What is so meaningful about eternal life under an omnipotent dictator.(or "Suoerfather" if you prefer)?
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 25th September 2019, 01:18 AM   #235
Robin
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
You say you don't care that your existence makes sense.
I explained to you that when I speak of meaning of existence I am not speaking of anything "metaphysical", as the absent-minded person above says.
If you are talking about something above and beyond the everyday fulfilment and satisfaction that might be sought in a material world.
Quote:
I have explained to you that the meaning of existence consists of an original project (or vital, if you like this word) that consists more or less of:

a) An idea about themselves, your capacities and weaknesses.
b) An idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
c) How to achieve some and avoid others.
d) How to relate to other people...

Don't you guys have anything like that?
Of course I have an idea of my capacities and weakness. Of course I have an idea of what things are important to me, what is pernicious to me and what is insignificant to me. Of course I have an idea of how to achieve some and avoid others. And of course I have an idea of how to relate to others.

Who doesn't?

Isn't that just part of normal functioning human life?
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 25th September 2019, 01:36 AM   #236
Robin
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
That seems to dodge my question. What is so meaningful about eternal life under an omnipotent dictator.(or "Suoerfather" if you prefer)?
I could break this down into separate questions.

1. Is eternal life more meaningful than a brief life, and if so why?

2. Is a life protected by a "Suoerfather" more meaningful than a life where we have to depend on each other and if so why?

If you can't answer these then you can't claim the Theist "project" would be more meaningful than the life we have.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 25th September 2019, 06:34 AM   #237
The Common Potato
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I'm not interpreting you. I tell you that you are mistaken. Can't stand to be told that you're wrong?
I love being told am I wrong. That way, given some new knowledge or finding out new stuff for myself, I might learn stuff. You are simply wrong in telling me that I am mistaken.

Last edited by The Common Potato; 25th September 2019 at 06:42 AM.
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Old 25th September 2019, 07:02 AM   #238
David Mo
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
I love being told am I wrong. That way, given some new knowledge or finding out new stuff for myself, I might learn stuff. You are simply wrong in telling me that I am mistaken.
Fine!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vY-4zWKsJM
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Old 25th September 2019, 07:07 AM   #239
David Mo
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Of course I have an idea of my capacities and weakness. Of course I have an idea of what things are important to me, what is pernicious to me and what is insignificant to me. Of course I have an idea of how to achieve some and avoid others. And of course I have an idea of how to relate to others.

Who doesn't?

Isn't that just part of normal functioning human life?
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post

I have an idea about myself, my capacities and my weaknesses.
I have an idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
I have some understanding of how to achieve some things and avoid others.
I am able to relate to other people.

These are separate things in my life. I see no need or point in trying to erect a construct called "an original project" - or, as I suspect you mean, a religion - to shoehorn them all into the same ill-fitting container.

Dave
Bravo! Looks like we're approaching positions. Now I don't have time to develop the idea. I'll be back tomorrow.
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:07 AM   #240
Robin
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Bravo! Looks like we're approaching positions. Now I don't have time to develop the idea. I'll be back tomorrow.
We seem to be approaching the position that the "vital project" you are talking about consists of things that most people do anyway.

You might explain why you think that things like knowing your strengths and weaknesses and knowing what is and isn't important to us, or knowing how to relate to people are things that apply in particular to atheists.

Do you think that atheists are particularly bad at these things?
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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