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Old 25th September 2019, 08:32 AM   #241
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Armageddon is pretty pessimistic
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:44 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
You compare two things by limiting yourself to what they have in common and refuse to analyze what is different about them. And then you call me stupid. Great argument.
Show me what is different about two things that DON'T EXIST.

They are not real. Nothing looks like nothing. Until you can show us that they are something they remain indistinguishable from each other.

Or is this to simple for you?
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:53 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I'm not talking about the definition of "god." I'm talking about the way believers imagine and feel their god.
I'm not talking about all those who declare themselves members of a church or belief. I am talking about those who really believe in a god that is similar to the so-called religions of the Book, because these are the religions that I know and have influence in our contemporary society.
I am not saying that all atheists consider the meaning of existence or, in other words, a vital project. There are those who do not consciously pose the problem and pretend that they have no life project. This is a mistake that I have tried to explain. Everyone has an idea more or less conscious of what they want to make of his life, which corresponds to that I call a vital project.

I am amazed that this so simple idea can provoke so many rabid responses and so few rational comments. You have a problem, truly.
You are failing at every turn. What's my problem? That I think your argument is pretentious absurd babble that makes little sense? That when I ask you to clarify, you just fill another. post with more noise?

You AGAIN said "EVERYONE" as if you know what other people think and must do. You continue to project your ideas about others as universal.
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Old 25th September 2019, 03:26 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Well, I've already explained it to you: that he presents himself as a protective Superfather who bestows eternal life. Does that seem like a small offer to you?
It is a scurrilous offer when one considers the price exacted.

Or are you now claiming your "superfather" asks nothing in return? In that case you have a vast evidential mountain to climb.

ETA: And it does seem like a small offer when there is no discernible "superfather" don't you think?
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Old 25th September 2019, 10:06 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post

These are separate things in my life. I see no need or point in trying to erect a construct called "an original project" - or, as I suspect you mean, a religion - to shoehorn them all into the same ill-fitting container.
The idea of how the world is influences the idea of how human beings act, which conditions the idea of why things are going good or not and the means to solve as far as possible what goes wrong.

Your overall project is based on how you manage all this consciously or unconsciously and it decides your daily practice.
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Old 25th September 2019, 10:08 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Isn't that just part of normal functioning human life?
Yes. I was not saying anything else.
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Old 25th September 2019, 10:16 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I could break this down into separate questions.

1. Is eternal life more meaningful than a brief life, and if so why?

2. Is a life protected by a "Suoerfather" more meaningful than a life where we have to depend on each other and if so why?

If you can't answer these then you can't claim the Theist "project" would be more meaningful than the life we have.
If by meaning we understand that both are oriented by a project, neither of the two has more or less sense than the other. They are intentional projects and nothing else.
If by meaning you understand that one is better than the other, of course. There is one of them that is illusory and leads to undesirable behaviors. It is the religious project.

I haven't said anything else for a month or more. I am surprised that you ask me that. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding with the use of "meaning" in English. It seems like an ambiguous word with two different meanings.
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Old 25th September 2019, 10:18 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Do you think that atheists are particularly bad at these things?
As a general rule they are better.
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Old 25th September 2019, 10:20 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Show me what is different about two things that DON'T EXIST.
Your main mistake during this whole debate: I am not talking about comparing things, but about comparing the idea that men have of them and the effects that this belief has on their behaviour.
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Old 25th September 2019, 10:30 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You AGAIN said "EVERYONE" as if you know what other people think and must do. You continue to project your ideas about others as universal.
I have already nuanced this "everyone" on several occasions. Exceptions to the rule do not nullify the rule.

But on the other hand I don't think there is anything horrendous that justifies your insults by the fact that I think there is something common to all humanity. This is usually called human nature and it is a concept with which one can disagree. But it doesn't justify getting angry. In the same way I can think that atheists in general may have or have not a problem, a good point or anything else. It is not a sin.
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Old 25th September 2019, 10:39 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Or are you now claiming your "superfather" asks nothing in return? In that case you have a vast evidential mountain to climb.

ETA: And it does seem like a small offer when there is no discernible "superfather" don't you think?
This Superfather exiges a complete submission and the renounce to think on some decisive points. Do you like this? Not me.

Never have you receive a fabulous offer that was ultimately specious? It is a very common fact in the business world, religious business included.
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Old 26th September 2019, 01:09 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The idea of how the world is influences the idea of how human beings act, which conditions the idea of why things are going good or not and the means to solve as far as possible what goes wrong.

Your overall project is based on how you manage all this consciously or unconsciously and it decides your daily practice.
Saying what an "overall project" is based on is not the same as either defining what an "overall project" is or demonstrating that everybody necessarily has one. Nor is it the same as evidence that the term "overall project" is even a useful label. Try harder.

Dave
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Old 26th September 2019, 04:11 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Yes. I was not saying anything else.
I am lost here. The vital project of which you speak is to go on going the stuff we did when we had never heard of of the idea of a vital project?

In what sense were we making a mistake then, if we were doing the thing you are recommending already?
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Old 26th September 2019, 06:38 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I am lost here. The vital project of which you speak is to go on going the stuff we did when we had never heard of of the idea of a vital project?

In what sense were we making a mistake then, if we were doing the thing you are recommending already?
You weren't holding your mouth right while doing it.
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Old 26th September 2019, 07:00 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I am lost here. The vital project of which you speak is to go on going the stuff we did when we had never heard of of the idea of a vital project?

In what sense were we making a mistake then, if we were doing the thing you are recommending already?
This is like Moliere's The Midle-Class Gentleman who was speaking in prose without knowing it:


Quote:
...PHILOSOPHY MASTER: Without doubt. Is it verse that you wish to
write her?

MONSIEUR JOURDAIN: No, no. No verse.

PHILOSOPHY MASTER: Do you want only prose?

MONSIEUR JOURDAIN: No, I don't want either prose or verse.

PHILOSOPHY MASTER: It must be one or the other.

MONSIEUR JOURDAIN: Why?

PHILOSOPHY MASTER: Because, sir, there is no other way to express
oneself than with prose or verse.

MONSIEUR JOURDAIN: There is nothing but prose or verse?

PHILOSOPHY MASTER: No, sir, everything that is not prose is verse,
and everything that is not verse is prose.

MONSIEUR JOURDAIN: And when one speaks, what is that then?

PHILOSOPHY MASTER: Prose.

MONSIEUR JOURDAIN: What! When I say, "Nicole, bring me my slippers,
and give me my nightcap," that's prose?

PHILOSOPHY MASTER: Yes, Sir.

MONSIEUR JOURDAIN: By my faith! For more than forty years I have
been speaking prose without knowing anything about it...

In reality your mistakes were mainly about misunderstanding what I was saying.
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Old 26th September 2019, 07:58 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Your main mistake during this whole debate: I am not talking about comparing things, but about comparing the idea that men have of them and the effects that this belief has on their behaviour.
Sorry, doesn't cut it. The idea of gods are identical to comic book superheroes like Spiderman. In fact some of them are. I give you Thor.

You continue to project that your idea of a God as what others think. I don't even believe you can argue that any two theists have the same idea about God. Some give God powers that others don't. And yet they both might call themselves not only Christians but more specifically Baptists.

In fact, Christians often refer to it as their personal god.
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Old 26th September 2019, 08:08 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Having no underlying spiritual beliefs to mitigate suffering, are atheists inevitably seeing the world through a glass darkly?


"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1 Corinthians 13:12
It depends on the atheist. Some are happy as a lark. Some are unhappy. If you became an atheist after coming to realize God doesn't exist after a lifetime of worship than you tend to be sad. If you come to know God doesn't exist simply because God doesn't answer prayers or intervenes in bad things that happen you tend to be pessimistic.


If on the other hand you were left to come to your own conclusions and decided God doesn't exist you tend to be happy about it. You've seen the light in the non-religious sense of the term.

I don't want to believe in a God that just sits there. I'm toying around with the idea of Deism. The Universe wouldn't be here if several factors weren't in place and I kind of feel that it was created by some intelligence. This doesn't mean there's life after death. This doesn't mean the creator is kind just and loving of mankind it merely means intelligent creation and then the creator left to make something else or sit back and watch.

A Philosopher named Anthony after observing the complexity of life came to believe in such a creator. The creator creator then left. No Hell below us, above us only sky. You die goodbye forever.
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Old 26th September 2019, 08:09 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
This is like Moliere's The Midle-Class Gentleman who was speaking in prose without knowing it:
Yes, in that being told he speaks in prose is in no way relevant to the intent or meaning of anything he says. Your definition of an "overall project," which appears to be more or less identical with that of self-awareness and is drafted in such a way as to apply to any and all people in any and all circumstances, is in fact even less relevant, since you've framed it so as to render virtually any statement about it either self-contradictory or tautological.

Dave
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Old 26th September 2019, 12:30 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
It depends on the atheist. Some are happy as a lark. Some are unhappy. If you became an atheist after coming to realize God doesn't exist after a lifetime of worship than you tend to be sad. If you come to know God doesn't exist simply because God doesn't answer prayers or intervenes in bad things that happen you tend to be pessimistic.


If on the other hand you were left to come to your own conclusions and decided God doesn't exist you tend to be happy about it. You've seen the light in the non-religious sense of the term.

I don't want to believe in a God that just sits there. I'm toying around with the idea of Deism. The Universe wouldn't be here if several factors weren't in place and I kind of feel that it was created by some intelligence. This doesn't mean there's life after death. This doesn't mean the creator is kind just and loving of mankind it merely means intelligent creation and then the creator left to make something else or sit back and watch.

A Philosopher named Anthony after observing the complexity of life came to believe in such a creator. The creator creator then left. No Hell below us, above us only sky. You die goodbye forever.
I consider myself a deist who believes God started the universe as a perfect plan to allow intelligent life to evolve and develop by free will over many incarnations.

The universe would not be here without a very great many happy accidents, and intelligent life on a planet such as ours needs many more details to work in our favour.
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Old 26th September 2019, 12:36 PM   #260
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Bouncing off to a slight derail:
Why is it that around here, any concept that is more or less universal is called meaningless? Like ‘everyone does/encounters/gets/experiences that’ makes whatever ‘that’ is, pointless/meaningless/useless to discuss? For example it crops up a lot when discussing racism and other isms, like if you say that unconscious/background radiation biases that impact a particular race are ‘racist’ then you’ve made the term ‘racist’ meaningless.
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Old 26th September 2019, 01:14 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

I consider myself a deist who believes God started the universe as a perfect plan to allow intelligent life to evolve and develop by free will over many incarnations.

The universe would not be here without a very great many happy accidents, and intelligent life on a planet such as ours needs many more details to work in our favour.
You also believe that childhood cancer is a karmicly deserved consequence of previous lives. That we should not intervene in such cases so as not to obstruct the cleansing of karmic debt of the child sufferer.
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Old 26th September 2019, 01:55 PM   #262
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All atheists are inevitably not god believers. Nothing else is inevitable about atheists.
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Old 26th September 2019, 02:58 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

I consider myself a deist who believes God started the universe as a perfect plan to allow intelligent life to evolve and develop by free will over many incarnations.

The universe would not be here without a very great many happy accidents, and intelligent life on a planet such as ours needs many more details to work in our favour.

Are yes, the same old God making things perfect statement. How many times do we get this **** from the religious? Why the perfect creator God cannot create man perfect from scratch is the conundrum we are faced with. Why hell, our bodies are plagued with so many imperfections as well. And those are the good ones not afflicted by deformities.

We get lots of statements of belief and faith from you Scorpion, but when you are asked to explain some anomaly, you get all vague or pass on it. I am still waiting for your take on my hypothesis, that the World is not as suitable a place for moulding our souls into shape as it once was - as a result of it being a nicer place to live now.
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Old 26th September 2019, 03:44 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post



I consider myself a deist who believes God started the universe as a perfect plan to allow intelligent life to evolve and develop by free will over many incarnations.



The universe would not be here without a very great many happy accidents, and intelligent life on a planet such as ours needs many more details to work in our favour.
That is such a horrendous viewpoint, as I have pointed out before what you are saying is your God planned a 3 year old to be raped multiple times by soldiers so she could evolve. If I had your beliefs I would be beyond grief and sadness, I would live in abject and utter terror and revulsion of your god.
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Old 26th September 2019, 03:47 PM   #265
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So let me sum up.

Atheists in general are making a mistake.

We should be creating meaning for our lives.

And by creating meaning you mean we need a vital project in our lives to replace the project of religion.

And by "vital project" you mean that we should continue to act just exactly as we already are.

Have I got it now?
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Old 26th September 2019, 03:52 PM   #266
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Let me adjust the Moliere for the current situation.

Master philosopher: You are making a mistake talking the way you are talking. You should be speaking prose.

Robin: And by "speaking prose", you mean:

Master philosopher: Prose is the way you are talking now.

Robin: So I should stop speaking as I am speaking now and, instead, I should speak as I am speaking now?

Master philosopher: Exactly!
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Old 26th September 2019, 04:24 PM   #267
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OK, good tip from philosophy.

Atheism implies a dramatic question. Atheists are making a mistake if we think we can abandon religion and continue live as we are currently living. Instead we should try to continue living as we are currently living.

I will try to bear that in mind.

I have no idea why philosophy gets such a bad rap.
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Old 26th September 2019, 07:04 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That is such a horrendous viewpoint, as I have pointed out before what you are saying is your God planned a 3 year old to be raped multiple times by soldiers so she could evolve. If I had your beliefs I would be beyond grief and sadness, I would live in abject and utter terror and revulsion of your god.
I feel the world where a three year old is raped and killed a terrible place to be, unless I numb my thinking of the world with my own goals or entertainment or a religion or a philosophy that disconnects me from events away from me, with or without God or its planning of it.
Out of the four I eliminated the third one. The fourth one is gaining strength over the first and second ones.

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Old 26th September 2019, 09:15 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I consider myself a deist who believes God started the universe as a perfect plan to allow intelligent life to evolve and develop by free will over many incarnations.
And who or what started the universe in which God came up with that perfect plan, presumably after evolving and developing the intelligence to do so over many incarnations?
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Old 26th September 2019, 09:48 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Saying what an "overall project" is based on is not the same as either defining what an "overall project" is or demonstrating that everybody necessarily has one. Nor is it the same as evidence that the term "overall project" is even a useful label. Try harder.

Dave
Do you deny that a Christian's idea of what God and the world are does not affect his personal relationships?
It is difficult for me to argue something so obvious.

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Old 26th September 2019, 10:02 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sorry, doesn't cut it. The idea of gods are identical to comic book superheroes like Spiderman. In fact some of them are. I give you Thor.

You continue to project that your idea of a God as what others think. I don't even believe you can argue that any two theists have the same idea about God. Some give God powers that others don't. And yet they both might call themselves not only Christians but more specifically Baptists.

In fact, Christians often refer to it as their personal god.
I have commented on those differences in several comments --#226 was the latter-- that you ignore over and over again.

We can go over them one by one:
The most important: the difference between believing that a fiction entity is a fiction entity and believing that a fiction entity is real.
The reader of Spiderman knows that his hero does not exist. The Christian believes that his God exists.
From here the differences between both beliefs are abysmal. I don't know how you can deny this.

Of course there are many kinds of Christianity. But the ones I know are based on the beliefs that I have described and summarized by the name of Superfather. That's what I'm talking about. Not the differences about the role of grace, the consubstantiality of the Son and these things that cause Christians to kill each other from time to time.
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Old 26th September 2019, 10:15 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Yes, in that being told he speaks in prose is in no way relevant to the intent or meaning of anything he says. Your definition of an "overall project," which appears to be more or less identical with that of self-awareness and is drafted in such a way as to apply to any and all people in any and all circumstances, is in fact even less relevant, since you've framed it so as to render virtually any statement about it either self-contradictory or tautological.

Dave
I took Molière's example as a funny way of illustrating that one can be doing something without knowing what it's called or what it implies. Like a vital project. I didn't mean to talk about Monsieur Jourdain's life project.

Could you explain why the concept of vital project is contradictory? (I don't like this word, but it seems to be the one that is best understood in this forum).

Surely there are things that you apply to all mankind. For example: "Every human being has passions"; "We act many times unconsciously". If these statements can be applied to all humanity, why can't the statement be made that we all have a more or less conscious project of life?

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Old 26th September 2019, 10:16 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Bouncing off to a slight derail:
Why is it that around here, any concept that is more or less universal is called meaningless? Like ‘everyone does/encounters/gets/experiences that’ makes whatever ‘that’ is, pointless/meaningless/useless to discuss?
This is a very good question.

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Old 26th September 2019, 10:25 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So let me sum up.

Atheists in general are making a mistake.

We should be creating meaning for our lives.

And by creating meaning you mean we need a vital project in our lives to replace the project of religion.

And by "vital project" you mean that we should continue to act just exactly as we already are.

Have I got it now?
No. I have not said that all atheists act the same as believers just for the sake of having a life project. Some atheists do because they base their vital project on absolute principles independent of their responsibility. In other words, they replace one idol with another, whether they do it consciously or not. In this they resemble believers.

But that does not refer to the whole of the atheists.
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Old 26th September 2019, 10:28 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Let me adjust the Moliere for the current situation.

Master philosopher: You are making a mistake talking the way you are talking. You should be speaking prose.

Robin: And by "speaking prose", you mean:

Master philosopher: Prose is the way you are talking now.

Robin: So I should stop speaking as I am speaking now and, instead, I should speak as I am speaking now?

Master philosopher: Exactly!
I don't know where you've gone to find such an absurd master philosopher.
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Old 26th September 2019, 10:30 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
OK, good tip from philosophy.

Atheism implies a dramatic question. Atheists are making a mistake if we think we can abandon religion and continue live as we are currently living. Instead we should try to continue living as we are currently living.

I will try to bear that in mind.

I have no idea why philosophy gets such a bad rap.
I don't know what philosophy you're talking about either. It's not mine.
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Old 26th September 2019, 10:41 PM   #277
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No.
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Old 27th September 2019, 03:54 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
And who or what started the universe in which God came up with that perfect plan, presumably after evolving and developing the intelligence to do so over many incarnations?
The belief is that God has always existed. That may not seem possible in our way of thinking, but that's what I seem to recall a spirit guide saying.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 27th September 2019, 04:03 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That is such a horrendous viewpoint, as I have pointed out before what you are saying is your God planned a 3 year old to be raped multiple times by soldiers so she could evolve. If I had your beliefs I would be beyond grief and sadness, I would live in abject and utter terror and revulsion of your god.
It is said, God remains perfect and untouched by suffering. He simply created a system that would ultimately lead us back to him over countless lifetimes.
God does not tell soldiers what to do , he simply allows us free will to act as we see fit, but makes us answerable for our actions over many lives.
A trance medium once said, we are presently at the stage of spiritual evolution that equates to kindergarten.
The human race may take another million years to evolve to what we are intended to become.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 27th September 2019, 04:04 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I don't know where you've gone to find such an absurd master philosopher.
The master philosopher in the dialog is you.
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