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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 6th November 2019, 03:40 PM   #121
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You're the self-professed IT boffin. You show Stacyhs how to research the internet.


That is truly a MOST EXCELLENT AND APPROPRIATE response to TruthCalls' question to you. Congratulations - this is exactly the commitment to accuracy and intellectual honesty that we've long come to expect from your posts on here.

Last edited by LondonJohn; 6th November 2019 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 6th November 2019, 04:07 PM   #122
toto
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
While I was slightly amused by this line in the Telegraph:

Miss Ganong has accused the US media of misleading the public with a sympathy
towards Fox in coverage that "bordered on the xenophobic" in its attack on Italian
justice

(Surely she meant "Foxy"!)

I do not see in either links any proof that Clinton did anything to advance Knox's case except offer to meet with the senator.
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Old 6th November 2019, 04:08 PM   #123
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh, good lord. Neither of those supports your claim, Vixen. This is an email TO Clinton from someone named Cheryl Mills about the rights to Knox's book.

Quote:

This is a link to an article which does NOT mention this alleged email from Clinton that "she'll look into it". What she does say, and not in an email ,is:

Quote:
Hillary Clinton has said that she will meet a US senator to discuss claims that Amanda Knox was the victim of a flawed trial and anti-Americanism.
Quote:
Maria Cantwell, a US Democrat senator for Washington state has said she plans to bring her own concerns about the trial, including possible anti-Americanism, to the Mrs Clinton's attention.

Quote:
Mrs Clinton, the Secretary of State, said on Sunday that she had not yet looked into the case as she had been preoccupied with Afghanistan policy.

She told ABC News: "Of course I'll meet with Senator Cantwell or anyone who has a concern, but I can't offer any opinion about that at this time."
Once again, you fail miserably to provide evidence of your claims. Why can't you just admit you are wrong instead of continuing this nonsense?

Last edited by Stacyhs; 6th November 2019 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 6th November 2019, 04:22 PM   #124
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You're the self-professed IT boffin. You show Stacyhs how to research the internet.
After your failure to provide evidence of any of the following, I'd say you are the one who needs lessons in research on the internet:

1.the money/credit card charges were "dropped",
2. Knox flew home on a privately chartered jet/747,
3. Sollecito owned a Napapijri jacket
4. or a white cap w/ a red band,
5. RS is left handed,
6. Fancesco Sollecito attended Rocco S's memorial in Bari,
7.Curt Knox said it was a "$2 million" PR campaign,
8. a sheet was found under Kercher's body,
9. Vinci said Knox's DNA was on the bra hook,
10. Wikileaks released an email from Clinton saying she'd look into the case.

And those are just off the top of my head. We can all add to this extensive list.

Take a look back in ISF at all of the above topics and you'll find that either I, or someone else here, did provide evidence that all the above claims are FALSE.

That you would even say "I'm" the one who needs to learn to do internet research shows one thing: you've certainly got chutzpah.
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Old 6th November 2019, 07:18 PM   #125
Numbers
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Vixen, the following table represents Amanda's DNA profile and how it maps to the DNA extraction performed on sample 165B - the bra clasp.

There are three columns (A, B & C), which represent three different interpretations of the egram from the sample. Col A is what is reported in the RTIGF. Col B is every peak, with no minimum RFU value and Col C is all peaks with an RFU of 50 and above.

For each loci, I compare Amanda's profile to those of the sample as cited in each of the three interpretations. If there is a match, then I highlight the box with either yellow (found in Meredith's profile), red (Sollecito), purple (Guede) or white text on black (unique to Amanda).

As you can see, based on what was reported in the RTIGF, there were no unique allleles from Amanda. Where a minimum of 50 RFU is enforced from the egram (Col C), there are three alleles unique to Amanda. As 50 RFU is the limit Stefanoni adheres to, this is the most incriminating result one can reasonably argue. And I'm sure even Balding would tell you (as he already has) this is NOT evidence of Amanda's profile on the clasp.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12295

In case you're confused on how to interpret this...

Consider locus D8S1179 (Amanda profile: 11, 12)

The RTIGF reports 13, 15 & 16 so no alleles match Amanda's profile and so under Col A for this loci the two boxes are not highlighted.

Per the egram, 12,13,14,15 & 16 are all above 50 RFU and so under Col C for this loci the box with 12 is highlighted (allele 12 is in Amanda's profile and this interpretation of the egram), 11 is not.

If either 11 or 12 was found in Meredith, Raffaele or Guede's profile then those boxes would be highlighted with the correct color. In this case, 12 is not in anyone else's profile so it's unique to Amanda and is highlighted as white on black.

There is far more information to consider than just this. For example, in the Vinci report, regarding this particular locus he writes;

"D8S1179: a profile 13, 15, 16 was attributed to the trace. Alleles 12 and 14 (RFU> 50) were omitted. The 12 allele having an area of 689 (less than 15% of the area of ​​the neighboring main peak (6239) could have been considered a stutter of the main allele 13 (the percentage of stutter for these small ones varies from 3 to 8% as reported by the manufacturer). This eventuality can not excluded but, in the presence of no more DNA present in the mixture at a concentration of about one tenth compared to the component greater, a stutter band is absolutely indistinguishable from a true allele that should have been attributed. For the 14 allele of the assessment (469 ie at least 45% of the peak area 15 next , (1171)) shows that this peak is not considered in the analysis has a higher percentage of 15% (if we consider the definition stutter band) and therefore must be considered in all respects effects a definable allele and attributable in the mixture."

So even though in the more liberal interpretation of the egram we see allele 12 appear, based on it's relative low RFU, it's reasonable to consider this stutter.

I can't wait to see The Machine's presentation. That should really push his creative writing skills to the limit.
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
TruthCalls, thanks for this excellent presentation.

Another point to be made is that if even one locus of the sample DNA profile does not have an allele matching the DNA of a suspect, then one must conclude that the DNA of the sample does NOT contain any contribution from that suspect. If the sample does not contain any contribution from that suspect, that sample does not constitute evidence against that suspect.

Under Interpretation B, accepting all apparent peaks with no minimum RFU threshold applied, alleles of Knox's DNA are not present at loci D7S820, D13S317, D195433, and VWA. Therefore, Knox's DNA does not contribute to sample 165B, and sample 165B cannot be considered evidence against Knox.

Furthermore, because of the improper methods of collection, which did not protect against contamination, used for Sample 165B, that sample cannot, under Italian law, be considered as evidence against anyone accused of the murder/rape of Meredith Kercher. This was the conclusion of the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation in their final acquittal of Knox and Sollecito.
There appear to be some postings with misunderstandings or fabrications about the details of DNA STR profiling.

First, it is not at all uncommon for persons of differing genetic, ethnic or national backgrounds to have some of the same alleles at some loci, and this is clear in the reference DNA STR profiles of Kercher [European (British) and South Asian (Pakistani) ancestry], Guede [West African (Ivory Coast) ancestry], Knox [European (British* and German) ancestry], and Sollecito [European (Italian) ancestry].

Examining the reference autosomal*** DNA STR profiles (each of the same 15 loci) as reported by Stefanoni:

At 4 loci Kercher and Guede have one allele the same****, while at 1 locus (D18S51) both alleles are the same****.

At 7 loci Kercher and Knox have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (TH01) both alleles are the same.

At 7 loci Kercher and Sollecito have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (D7S820) both alleles are the same.

At 7 loci Knox and Guede have one allele the same, while they have no locus with both alleles the same.

At 5 loci Knox and Sollecito have one allele the same, while they have no locus with both alleles the same.

At 8 loci Sollecito and Guede have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (TPOX) both alleles are the same.

Thus, if one were to mix up the DNA of two or three of the above, one could falsely interpret that some loci were present from the fourth individual.

For example, at locus D16S539, Kercher has alleles with 10 and 14 repeats, while Sollecito has alleles with 11 and 14 repeats. Mix the DNA of the two, and a profile with alleles of 10, 11, and 14 would appear. One could then falsely claim that Knox - who has alleles with repeats of 10 and 11 at this locus - contributed DNA to the mixture. With a mixture from enough individuals, it is likely that many of any person's DNA loci could be falsely interpreted to be present. For that reason, the standard of interpretation is that if even one locus does not support such a claim, the claim is false. Therefore, the bra clasp DNA profile does not demonstrate any contribution from Knox.

If one were to include the DNA of other individuals, such at the contaminant DNA of several males present on the bra clasp hook, similar overlaps or identities of alleles at the loci of the profiles would be highly likely. That is because there is a relatively small range of different repeat numbers to be found in the alleles of any specific locus. The relatively common situation of alleles at some loci being the same in different individuals leads to confusion in the interpretation of DNA mixtures, especially if three or more individuals have contributed. Thus, this is the situation with the bra clasp - one can arbitrarily group some alleles together to falsely and absurdly claim that those few alleles were contributed by Knox, although Knox's complete 15-loci profile is not at all present.

Of interest, forensic scientists and law enforcement are currently developing additional loci beyond the minimum 13 commonly used in the US since "mixture detectability will improve with use of more STR loci".*****

Also relevant to this case, the author of the paper states "Superb sensitivity is available with forensic DNA testing due to amplification of target regions with the polymerase chain reaction (PCR). DNA results can be obtained from as little as a single cell depending on methods used. However, this exquisite sensitivity is both a blessing and a curse. When high-sensitivity techniques are used, a very real possibility exists for contamination from DNA coming from someone not associated with the crime sample under investigation. If consumables such as swabs or tubes are not DNA-free, then the manufacturer's DNA may be detected and even lead investigators down the wrong path. A number of measures, such as examining negative controls, are typically used to prevent drawing incorrect conclusions if DNA contamination occurs."

Stefanoni suppressed - hid results from the court and the defense - for almost all of her negative controls. The few control results she did present clearly showed that contamination was indeed present.


* "Knox" is a surname originating in Scotland**. The most well-known American with this surname is perhaps the Revolutionary War general Henry Knox, who was chief of artillery under Washington. However, in the US, surnames do not necessarily reflect the ancestry of a person

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knox_(surname)

*** That is, not including the Y chromosome DNA STRs, which are only present in genetic males.

**** "The same" means the same number of repeats in only one or in both of the two STR alleles present in a pairwise comparison at each of the 15 loci of the profiles of the individuals, as stated.

***** The future of forensic DNA analysis; Butler, John M., National Institute of Standards and Technology; Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci 370:1674 (2015)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4580997/

Last edited by Numbers; 6th November 2019 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 6th November 2019, 07:43 PM   #126
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
There appear to be some postings with misunderstandings or fabrications about the details of DNA STR profiling.

First, it is not at all uncommon for persons of differing genetic, ethnic or national backgrounds to have some of the same alleles at some loci, and this is clear in the reference DNA STR profiles of Kercher [European (British] and South Asian (Pakistani) ancestry], Guede [West African (Ivory Coast) ancestry], Knox [European (British* and German) ancestry], and Sollecito [European (Italian) ancestry].

Examining the reference autosomal*** DNA STR profiles (each of the same 15 loci) as reported by Stefanoni:

At 4 loci Kercher and Guede have one allele the same****, while at 1 locus (D18S51) both alleles are the same****.

At 7 loci Kercher and Knox have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (TH01) both alleles are the same.

At 7 loci Kercher and Sollecito have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (D7S820) both alleles are the same.

At 7 loci Knox and Guede have one allele the same, while they have no locus with both alleles the same.

At 5 loci Knox and Sollecito have one allele the same, while they have no locus with both alleles the same.

At 8 loci Sollecito and Guede have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (TPOX) both alleles are the same.

If one were to include the DNA of other individuals, such at the contaminant DNA of several males present on the bra clasp hook, similar overlaps or identities of alleles at the loci of the profiles would be highly likely. That is because there is a relatively small range of different repeat numbers to be found in the alleles of any specific locus. The relatively common situation of alleles at some loci being the same in different individuals leads to confusion in the interpretation of DNA mixtures, especially if three or more individuals have contributed. Thus, this is the situation with the bra clasp - one can arbitrarily group some alleles together to falsely and absurdly claim that those few alleles were contributed by Knox, although Knox's complete 15-loci profile is not at all present.

Of interest, forensic scientists and law enforcement are currently developing additional loci beyond the minimum 13 commonly used in the US since "mixture detectability will improve with use of more STR loci".*****

Also relevant to this case, the author of the paper states "Superb sensitivity is available with forensic DNA testing due to amplification of target regions with the polymerase chain reaction (PCR). DNA results can be obtained from as little as a single cell depending on methods used. However, this exquisite sensitivity is both a blessing and a curse. When high-sensitivity techniques are used, a very real possibility exists for contamination from DNA coming from someone not associated with the crime sample under investigation. If consumables such as swabs or tubes are not DNA-free, then the manufacturer's DNA may be detected and even lead investigators down the wrong path. A number of measures, such as examining negative controls, are typically used to prevent drawing incorrect conclusions if DNA contamination occurs."

Stefanoni suppressed - hid results from the court and the defense - for almost all of her negative controls. The few control results she did present clearly showed that contamination was indeed present.


* "Knox" is a surname originating in Scotland**. The most well-known American with this surname is perhaps the Revolutionary War general Henry Knox, who was chief of artillery under Washington. However, in the US, surnames do not necessarily reflect the ancestry of a person

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knox_(surname)

*** That is, not including the Y chromosome DNA STRs, which are only present in genetic males.

**** "The same" means the same number of repeats in only one or in both of the two STR alleles present in a pairwise comparison at each of the 15 loci of the profiles of the individuals, as stated.

***** The future of forensic DNA analysis; Butler, John M., National Institute of Standards and Technology; Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci 370:1674 (2015)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4580997/


Now hold on here, Numbers. You've got this ALL wrong.

I, a pro-guilt commentator, understand Jack Schmidt about DNA science or DNA profiling (though I pretend I do, and I like to throw around the vocabulary of DNA science in an embarrassing attempt to lend credibility to the nonsensical crap I'm writing). But that doesn't at all stop me from boldly (and baldly) asserting that Knox's DNA was clearly and reliably found on the bra clasp. And nor does it stop me from further asserting that not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni's work on the forensic evidence in this case was truly world-class, and that Stefanoni acted wholly scrupulously and in no way sought to obfuscate, withhold, misdirect or lie during the trial process for Knox and Sollecito.

In addition, my critical thinking prowess means that I can state with impunity that the only people to challenge the DNA evidence in this case are either paid shills or people who consider Knox and Sollecito to be their heroes (or who are somehow in love with Knox and/or Sollecito).

I consider my stance on this issue to be inviolable and impervious to any challenge, on account of my rigorous commitment to accuracy, backed up by breathtakingly-high levels of research and a masterly command of my brief. And as I said before, my intellect-lite total balls-up of any understanding of DNA science is, frankly, no hindrance to the strength of my position. I am right, and you (and all the other pro-acquittal/pro-innocence shills and hero-worshippers) are wrong. End of.
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Old 6th November 2019, 09:17 PM   #127
TruthCalls
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And speaking of the Y-STR analysis, I learned something new as a result of reviewing the data, and that is that Stefanoni failed to report in the RTIGF seven alleles that are unique to Guede. At the end of the day it doesn't really change anything as there were still 5 loci that did not match Guede, but I find it interesting that we have people like Vixen and The Machine incessantly trying to argue Amanda's DNA is on the clasp, yet these same Guede apologists never mention there is a stronger case to be made that his DNA is on it.
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Old 6th November 2019, 09:32 PM   #128
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
There appear to be some postings with misunderstandings or fabrications about the details of DNA STR profiling.

First, it is not at all uncommon for persons of differing genetic, ethnic or national backgrounds to have some of the same alleles at some loci, and this is clear in the reference DNA STR profiles of Kercher [European (British) and South Asian (Pakistani) ancestry], Guede [West African (Ivory Coast) ancestry], Knox [European (British* and German) ancestry], and Sollecito [European (Italian) ancestry].

Examining the reference autosomal*** DNA STR profiles (each of the same 15 loci) as reported by Stefanoni:

At 4 loci Kercher and Guede have one allele the same****, while at 1 locus (D18S51) both alleles are the same****.

At 7 loci Kercher and Knox have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (TH01) both alleles are the same.

At 7 loci Kercher and Sollecito have one allele the same, while at 1 locus two loci (D7S820 and FGA) both alleles are the same.

At 7 loci Knox and Guede have one allele the same, while they have no locus with both alleles the same.

At 5 loci Knox and Sollecito have one allele the same, while they have no locus with both alleles the same.

At 8 loci Sollecito and Guede have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (TPOX) both alleles are the same.

Thus, if one were to mix up the DNA of two or three of the above, one could falsely interpret that some loci were present from the fourth individual.

For example, at locus D16S539, Kercher has alleles with 10 and 14 repeats, while Sollecito has alleles with 11 and 14 repeats. Mix the DNA of the two, and a profile with alleles of 10, 11, and 14 would appear. One could then falsely claim that Knox - who has alleles with repeats of 10 and 11 at this locus - contributed DNA to the mixture. With a mixture from enough individuals, it is likely that many of any person's DNA loci could be falsely interpreted to be present. For that reason, the standard of interpretation is that if even one locus does not support such a claim, the claim is false. Therefore, the bra clasp DNA profile does not demonstrate any contribution from Knox.

If one were to include the DNA of other individuals, such at the contaminant DNA of several males present on the bra clasp hook, similar overlaps or identities of alleles at the loci of the profiles would be highly likely. That is because there is a relatively small range of different repeat numbers to be found in the alleles of any specific locus. The relatively common situation of alleles at some loci being the same in different individuals leads to confusion in the interpretation of DNA mixtures, especially if three or more individuals have contributed. Thus, this is the situation with the bra clasp - one can arbitrarily group some alleles together to falsely and absurdly claim that those few alleles were contributed by Knox, although Knox's complete 15-loci profile is not at all present.

Of interest, forensic scientists and law enforcement are currently developing additional loci beyond the minimum 13 commonly used in the US since "mixture detectability will improve with use of more STR loci".*****

Also relevant to this case, the author of the paper states "Superb sensitivity is available with forensic DNA testing due to amplification of target regions with the polymerase chain reaction (PCR). DNA results can be obtained from as little as a single cell depending on methods used. However, this exquisite sensitivity is both a blessing and a curse. When high-sensitivity techniques are used, a very real possibility exists for contamination from DNA coming from someone not associated with the crime sample under investigation. If consumables such as swabs or tubes are not DNA-free, then the manufacturer's DNA may be detected and even lead investigators down the wrong path. A number of measures, such as examining negative controls, are typically used to prevent drawing incorrect conclusions if DNA contamination occurs."

Stefanoni suppressed - hid results from the court and the defense - for almost all of her negative controls. The few control results she did present clearly showed that contamination was indeed present.


* "Knox" is a surname originating in Scotland**. The most well-known American with this surname is perhaps the Revolutionary War general Henry Knox, who was chief of artillery under Washington. However, in the US, surnames do not necessarily reflect the ancestry of a person

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knox_(surname)

*** That is, not including the Y chromosome DNA STRs, which are only present in genetic males.

**** "The same" means the same number of repeats in only one or in both of the two STR alleles present in a pairwise comparison at each of the 15 loci of the profiles of the individuals, as stated.

***** The future of forensic DNA analysis; Butler, John M., National Institute of Standards and Technology; Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci 370:1674 (2015)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4580997/
Looking through the data again, I found I had missed one "same" locus in the Kercher - Sollecito comparison.

I have corrected the information in the above quote of the post (it was too late to edit the original).
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Old 6th November 2019, 10:10 PM   #129
Numbers
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Here is the correction in a free-standing post allowing it to be quoted using the forum software, should anyone wish:

There appear to be some postings with misunderstandings or fabrications about the details of DNA STR profiling.

First, it is not at all uncommon for persons of differing genetic, ethnic or national backgrounds to have some of the same alleles at some loci, and this is clear in the reference DNA STR profiles of Kercher [European (British) and South Asian (Pakistani) ancestry], Guede [West African (Ivory Coast) ancestry], Knox [European (British* and German) ancestry], and Sollecito [European (Italian) ancestry].

Examining the reference autosomal*** DNA STR profiles (each of the same 15 loci) as reported by Stefanoni:

At 4 loci Kercher and Guede have one allele the same****, while at 1 locus (D18S51) both alleles are the same****.

At 7 loci Kercher and Knox have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (TH01) both alleles are the same.

At 7 loci Kercher and Sollecito have one allele the same, while at two loci (D7S820 and FGA) both alleles are the same.

At 7 loci Knox and Guede have one allele the same, while they have no locus with both alleles the same.

At 5 loci Knox and Sollecito have one allele the same, while they have no locus with both alleles the same.

At 8 loci Sollecito and Guede have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (TPOX) both alleles are the same.

Thus, if one were to mix up the DNA of two or three of the above, one could falsely interpret that some loci were present from the fourth individual.

For example, at locus D16S539, Kercher has alleles with 10 and 14 repeats, while Sollecito has alleles with 11 and 14 repeats. Mix the DNA of the two, and a profile with alleles of 10, 11, and 14 would appear. One could then falsely claim that Knox - who has alleles with repeats of 10 and 11 at this locus - contributed DNA to the mixture. With a mixture from enough individuals, it is likely that many of any person's DNA loci could be falsely interpreted to be present. For that reason, the standard of interpretation is that if even one locus does not support such a claim, the claim is false. Therefore, the bra clasp DNA profile does not demonstrate any contribution from Knox.

If one were to include the DNA of other individuals, such at the contaminant DNA of several males present on the bra clasp hook, similar overlaps or identities of alleles at the loci of the profiles would be highly likely. That is because there is a relatively small range of different repeat numbers to be found in the alleles of any specific locus. The relatively common situation of alleles at some loci being the same in different individuals leads to confusion in the interpretation of DNA mixtures, especially if three or more individuals have contributed. Thus, this is the situation with the bra clasp - one can arbitrarily group some alleles together to falsely and absurdly claim that those few alleles were contributed by Knox, although Knox's complete 15-loci profile is not at all present.

Of interest, forensic scientists and law enforcement are currently developing additional loci beyond the minimum 13 commonly used in the US since "mixture detectability will improve with use of more STR loci".*****

Also relevant to this case, the author of the paper states "Superb sensitivity is available with forensic DNA testing due to amplification of target regions with the polymerase chain reaction (PCR). DNA results can be obtained from as little as a single cell depending on methods used. However, this exquisite sensitivity is both a blessing and a curse. When high-sensitivity techniques are used, a very real possibility exists for contamination from DNA coming from someone not associated with the crime sample under investigation. If consumables such as swabs or tubes are not DNA-free, then the manufacturer's DNA may be detected and even lead investigators down the wrong path. A number of measures, such as examining negative controls, are typically used to prevent drawing incorrect conclusions if DNA contamination occurs."

Stefanoni suppressed - hid results from the court and the defense - for almost all of her negative controls. The few control results she did present clearly showed that contamination was indeed present.


* "Knox" is a surname originating in Scotland**. The most well-known American with this surname is perhaps the Revolutionary War general Henry Knox, who was chief of artillery under Washington. However, in the US, surnames do not necessarily reflect the ancestry of a person.

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knox_(surname)

*** That is, not including the Y chromosome DNA STRs, which are only present in genetic males.

**** "The same" means the same number of repeats in only one or in both of the two STR alleles present in a pairwise comparison at each of the 15 loci of the profiles of the individuals, as stated.

***** The future of forensic DNA analysis; Butler, John M., National Institute of Standards and Technology; Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci 370:1674 (2015)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4580997/
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Old 6th November 2019, 10:48 PM   #130
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Here is the correction in a free-standing post allowing it to be quoted using the forum software, should anyone wish:

There appear to be some postings with misunderstandings or fabrications about the details of DNA STR profiling.

First, it is not at all uncommon for persons of differing genetic, ethnic or national backgrounds to have some of the same alleles at some loci, and this is clear in the reference DNA STR profiles of Kercher [European (British) and South Asian (Pakistani) ancestry], Guede [West African (Ivory Coast) ancestry], Knox [European (British* and German) ancestry], and Sollecito [European (Italian) ancestry].

Examining the reference autosomal*** DNA STR profiles (each of the same 15 loci) as reported by Stefanoni:

At 4 loci Kercher and Guede have one allele the same****, while at 1 locus (D18S51) both alleles are the same****.

At 7 loci Kercher and Knox have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (TH01) both alleles are the same.

At 7 loci Kercher and Sollecito have one allele the same, while at two loci (D7S820 and FGA) both alleles are the same.

At 7 loci Knox and Guede have one allele the same, while they have no locus with both alleles the same.

At 5 loci Knox and Sollecito have one allele the same, while they have no locus with both alleles the same.

At 8 loci Sollecito and Guede have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (TPOX) both alleles are the same.

Thus, if one were to mix up the DNA of two or three of the above, one could falsely interpret that some loci were present from the fourth individual.

For example, at locus D16S539, Kercher has alleles with 10 and 14 repeats, while Sollecito has alleles with 11 and 14 repeats. Mix the DNA of the two, and a profile with alleles of 10, 11, and 14 would appear. One could then falsely claim that Knox - who has alleles with repeats of 10 and 11 at this locus - contributed DNA to the mixture. With a mixture from enough individuals, it is likely that many of any person's DNA loci could be falsely interpreted to be present. For that reason, the standard of interpretation is that if even one locus does not support such a claim, the claim is false. Therefore, the bra clasp DNA profile does not demonstrate any contribution from Knox.

If one were to include the DNA of other individuals, such at the contaminant DNA of several males present on the bra clasp hook, similar overlaps or identities of alleles at the loci of the profiles would be highly likely. That is because there is a relatively small range of different repeat numbers to be found in the alleles of any specific locus. The relatively common situation of alleles at some loci being the same in different individuals leads to confusion in the interpretation of DNA mixtures, especially if three or more individuals have contributed. Thus, this is the situation with the bra clasp - one can arbitrarily group some alleles together to falsely and absurdly claim that those few alleles were contributed by Knox, although Knox's complete 15-loci profile is not at all present.

Of interest, forensic scientists and law enforcement are currently developing additional loci beyond the minimum 13 commonly used in the US since "mixture detectability will improve with use of more STR loci".*****

Also relevant to this case, the author of the paper states "Superb sensitivity is available with forensic DNA testing due to amplification of target regions with the polymerase chain reaction (PCR). DNA results can be obtained from as little as a single cell depending on methods used. However, this exquisite sensitivity is both a blessing and a curse. When high-sensitivity techniques are used, a very real possibility exists for contamination from DNA coming from someone not associated with the crime sample under investigation. If consumables such as swabs or tubes are not DNA-free, then the manufacturer's DNA may be detected and even lead investigators down the wrong path. A number of measures, such as examining negative controls, are typically used to prevent drawing incorrect conclusions if DNA contamination occurs."

Stefanoni suppressed - hid results from the court and the defense - for almost all of her negative controls. The few control results she did present clearly showed that contamination was indeed present.


* "Knox" is a surname originating in Scotland**. The most well-known American with this surname is perhaps the Revolutionary War general Henry Knox, who was chief of artillery under Washington. However, in the US, surnames do not necessarily reflect the ancestry of a person.

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knox_(surname)

*** That is, not including the Y chromosome DNA STRs, which are only present in genetic males.

**** "The same" means the same number of repeats in only one or in both of the two STR alleles present in a pairwise comparison at each of the 15 loci of the profiles of the individuals, as stated.

***** The future of forensic DNA analysis; Butler, John M., National Institute of Standards and Technology; Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci 370:1674 (2015)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4580997/
I've done some additional analysis to show the diversity of the partial matches among the loci of the profiles of the four individuals: Meredith Kercher (MK), Amanda Knox (AK), Raffaele Sollecito (RS), and Rudy Guede (RG).

This additional analysis allowed me to find the error in my original post.

For simplicity, in the presentation, I have used L-1, ... , L-15 to represent the designations of the loci D8S1179, ... , FGA, keeping the order used by Stefanoni. In the presentation, for each pairing of individuals, I will list the loci in which a "same" allele was observed, followed by the number of repetitions, set off in parentheses, in that "same" allele. The cases where both alleles of a locus were observed to be the same are preceded by "ID" (for identical) and the repetitions of both alleles of the locus are given.

MK & RG
L-3 (11); L-9 (23); L-12 (8); L-14 (12)
ID: L-13 (14,15)

MK & AK
L-2 (30); L-4 (12); L-5 (18); L-7 (13); L-8 (10); L-9 (20); L-12 (8)
ID: L-6 (6,8)

MK & RS
L-1 (13); L-2 (33.2); L-4 (12); L-7 (8); L-8 (14); L-12 (8); L-14 (12)
ID: L-3 (8,11); L-15 (20,21)

AK & RG
L-2 (29); L-5 (15); L-7 (11); L-8 (11); L-10 (13); L-12 (8); L-14 (13)
ID: None

AK & RS
L-4 (12); L-8 (11); L-10 (13); L-12 (8); L-13 (17)
ID: None

RS & RG
L-3 (11); L-5 (16); L-6 (9); L-7 (12); L-8 (11); L-9 (16); L-10 (13); L-14 (12)
ID: L-12 (8,9)

Source: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/dnaprofiles.html
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Old 6th November 2019, 10:54 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
And speaking of the Y-STR analysis, I learned something new as a result of reviewing the data, and that is that Stefanoni failed to report in the RTIGF seven alleles that are unique to Guede. At the end of the day it doesn't really change anything as there were still 5 loci that did not match Guede, but I find it interesting that we have people like Vixen and The Machine incessantly trying to argue Amanda's DNA is on the clasp, yet these same Guede apologists never mention there is a stronger case to be made that his DNA is on it.
Won't the fans of Guede (aka PGP) come up with a witty saying, such as:

"If the profile does not fit, we must acquit!"

(Ignoring the significant evidence that Guede's DNA profile was indeed found in the rape kit, on Kercher's clothes, and in her purse.)
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Old 7th November 2019, 02:10 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
There appear to be some postings with misunderstandings or fabrications about the details of DNA STR profiling.

First, it is not at all uncommon for persons of differing genetic, ethnic or national backgrounds to have some of the same alleles at some loci, and this is clear in the reference DNA STR profiles of Kercher [European (British) and South Asian (Pakistani) ancestry], Guede [West African (Ivory Coast) ancestry], Knox [European (British* and German) ancestry], and Sollecito [European (Italian) ancestry].

Examining the reference autosomal*** DNA STR profiles (each of the same 15 loci) as reported by Stefanoni:

At 4 loci Kercher and Guede have one allele the same****, while at 1 locus (D18S51) both alleles are the same****.

At 7 loci Kercher and Knox have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (TH01) both alleles are the same.

At 7 loci Kercher and Sollecito have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (D7S820) both alleles are the same.

At 7 loci Knox and Guede have one allele the same, while they have no locus with both alleles the same.

At 5 loci Knox and Sollecito have one allele the same, while they have no locus with both alleles the same.

At 8 loci Sollecito and Guede have one allele the same, while at 1 locus (TPOX) both alleles are the same.

Thus, if one were to mix up the DNA of two or three of the above, one could falsely interpret that some loci were present from the fourth individual.

For example, at locus D16S539, Kercher has alleles with 10 and 14 repeats, while Sollecito has alleles with 11 and 14 repeats. Mix the DNA of the two, and a profile with alleles of 10, 11, and 14 would appear. One could then falsely claim that Knox - who has alleles with repeats of 10 and 11 at this locus - contributed DNA to the mixture. With a mixture from enough individuals, it is likely that many of any person's DNA loci could be falsely interpreted to be present. For that reason, the standard of interpretation is that if even one locus does not support such a claim, the claim is false. Therefore, the bra clasp DNA profile does not demonstrate any contribution from Knox.

If one were to include the DNA of other individuals, such at the contaminant DNA of several males present on the bra clasp hook, similar overlaps or identities of alleles at the loci of the profiles would be highly likely. That is because there is a relatively small range of different repeat numbers to be found in the alleles of any specific locus. The relatively common situation of alleles at some loci being the same in different individuals leads to confusion in the interpretation of DNA mixtures, especially if three or more individuals have contributed. Thus, this is the situation with the bra clasp - one can arbitrarily group some alleles together to falsely and absurdly claim that those few alleles were contributed by Knox, although Knox's complete 15-loci profile is not at all present.

Of interest, forensic scientists and law enforcement are currently developing additional loci beyond the minimum 13 commonly used in the US since "mixture detectability will improve with use of more STR loci".*****

Also relevant to this case, the author of the paper states "Superb sensitivity is available with forensic DNA testing due to amplification of target regions with the polymerase chain reaction (PCR). DNA results can be obtained from as little as a single cell depending on methods used. However, this exquisite sensitivity is both a blessing and a curse. When high-sensitivity techniques are used, a very real possibility exists for contamination from DNA coming from someone not associated with the crime sample under investigation. If consumables such as swabs or tubes are not DNA-free, then the manufacturer's DNA may be detected and even lead investigators down the wrong path. A number of measures, such as examining negative controls, are typically used to prevent drawing incorrect conclusions if DNA contamination occurs."

Stefanoni suppressed - hid results from the court and the defense - for almost all of her negative controls. The few control results she did present clearly showed that contamination was indeed present.


* "Knox" is a surname originating in Scotland**. The most well-known American with this surname is perhaps the Revolutionary War general Henry Knox, who was chief of artillery under Washington. However, in the US, surnames do not necessarily reflect the ancestry of a person

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knox_(surname)

*** That is, not including the Y chromosome DNA STRs, which are only present in genetic males.

**** "The same" means the same number of repeats in only one or in both of the two STR alleles present in a pairwise comparison at each of the 15 loci of the profiles of the individuals, as stated.

***** The future of forensic DNA analysis; Butler, John M., National Institute of Standards and Technology; Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci 370:1674 (2015)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4580997/
The allele peak readings are due to the PCR mix being charged with flourescent electro-impulses in order to highlight them so they can be read easily, these give the "relative fluorescence units" RFU's.

It is possible to separate out mixed DNA. On the bra clasp it is possible to ascertain four different individuals, one of which is unknown, but were this person to come into radar, his DNA can indeed be matched to the profile. Most likely it is random background noise and he has nothing to do with the crime at all. (But who knows...?)

Identifying someone's DNA on an item at a crime scene does not of itself in isolation mean anything. Just as someone picking out someone in an ID parade isn't acceptable evidence on its own, likewise, the presence of someone's DNA at a crime scene has to be looked at in perspective with the rest of the evidence.

Thus it is utter nonsense for Vecchiotti to claim her DNA is also reflected in Sample 165B. However, it is telling that laymen like yourself swallow up such nonsense.

You can't know whether Knox is British or not as AIUI Curt Knox was adopted (or so it is stated somewhere). However, geneticists cannot distinguish English, German and French DNA from each other as they are so intermingled throughout the centuries (thus, Brits who claim they can be identified by others as French or German when they go abroad are deluded). However, geneticists can identify a British gene and that generally means 'Scottish or Irish' as these genes didn't mix with the continent as the English did. IOW if you have a DNA test, the people mostly likely to come back with 100% 'British' are the Scots and Irish, whereas the English will often have something like 'up to 40% 'German or French' or just a generalised 'Western Europe'.

Even if Vecchiotti has the common H haplotype type, it doesn't mean Knox does as well.
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Old 7th November 2019, 04:27 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The allele peak readings are due to the PCR mix being charged with flourescent electro-impulses in order to highlight them so they can be read easily, these give the "relative fluorescence units" RFU's.

It is possible to separate out mixed DNA. On the bra clasp it is possible to ascertain four different individuals, one of which is unknown, but were this person to come into radar, his DNA can indeed be matched to the profile. Most likely it is random background noise and he has nothing to do with the crime at all. (But who knows...?)

Identifying someone's DNA on an item at a crime scene does not of itself in isolation mean anything. Just as someone picking out someone in an ID parade isn't acceptable evidence on its own, likewise, the presence of someone's DNA at a crime scene has to be looked at in perspective with the rest of the evidence.

Thus it is utter nonsense for Vecchiotti to claim her DNA is also reflected in Sample 165B. However, it is telling that laymen like yourself swallow up such nonsense.

You can't know whether Knox is British or not as AIUI Curt Knox was adopted (or so it is stated somewhere). However, geneticists cannot distinguish English, German and French DNA from each other as they are so intermingled throughout the centuries (thus, Brits who claim they can be identified by others as French or German when they go abroad are deluded). However, geneticists can identify a British gene and that generally means 'Scottish or Irish' as these genes didn't mix with the continent as the English did. IOW if you have a DNA test, the people mostly likely to come back with 100% 'British' are the Scots and Irish, whereas the English will often have something like 'up to 40% 'German or French' or just a generalised 'Western Europe'.

Even if Vecchiotti has the common H haplotype type, it doesn't mean Knox does as well.


1) LMAO (I've given up on buying replacement Irony-o-meters....)

2) You STILL apparently don't understand that Vecchiotti was not claiming she shared the same DNA markers as Knox. Instead, Vecchiotti was saying that her own DNA markers could also be found amidst the number of alleged peaks (some of which were undoubtedly stutters) within that DNA admixture.

ETA 3) You couldn't be more incorrect to claim that "on the bra clasp it is possible to ascertain four different individuals, one of which is unknown". In fact, Kercher's DNA and Sollecito's DNA (albeit at a low-template quantity*) are present, but there is also clear evidence of the presence of DNA from at least two other, as-yet-unidentified males. So that adds up to at least four, at least two of whom are unknown. (I mean it's cute and cunning of you to still be trying to suggest that Knox can be identified as a DNA contributor to the bra clasp and all, but in the critical-thinking world of scientific literacy and the provision of reliable evidence to support a claim, you know that just won't wash, Vixen....).


* And given not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni's incompetence and lies around her lab methods and suppression of raw data, coupled with the shockingly inept way in which the bra clasp was ignored, ill-treated, collected, transported and stored, and also give the presence of markers from at lease two other unidentified males, it's a total no-brainer to know that the presence of Sollecito's DNA is in no way reliable evidence that he ever actually came into primary contact with the bra clasp.

Last edited by LondonJohn; 7th November 2019 at 04:41 AM.
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Old 7th November 2019, 04:31 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Won't the fans of Guede (aka PGP) come up with a witty saying, such as:

"If the profile does not fit, we must acquit!"

(Ignoring the significant evidence that Guede's DNA profile was indeed found in the rape kit, on Kercher's clothes, and in her purse.)



Yes. And lest we forget, the swabs from Kercher's body were taken during the pathologist's examination, and (IIRC) were analysed in-house at the hospital*



* But I'm by no means certain of that. In any case, it's something of a moot point because Guede's DNA from his epithelial cells (his fingers or genitals....) was present at verifiable, reliable, regular PCR levels. Even Stefanoni couldn't have cocked that one up.
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Old 7th November 2019, 05:09 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yes. And lest we forget, the swabs from Kercher's body were taken during the pathologist's examination, and (IIRC) were analysed in-house at the hospital*



* But I'm by no means certain of that. In any case, it's something of a moot point because Guede's DNA from his epithelial cells (his fingers or genitals....) was present at verifiable, reliable, regular PCR levels. Even Stefanoni couldn't have cocked that one up.
Raffaele Sollecito's DNA is on her underwear. It's irrefutable.
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Old 7th November 2019, 05:51 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Raffaele Sollecito's DNA is on her underwear. It's irrefutable.



You didn't read what I wrote (again....), Vixen.

The question is not whether his DNA is present or not. The question is whether it can reliably be said to have been deposited there through primary transfer.

And do you know the correct answer to that question, Vixen? And further, do you know the correct implication of that correct answer?
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Old 7th November 2019, 07:50 AM   #137
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Some posters and lurkers here may be confused about the fact that STR DNA profiles do not necessarily give information on a person's ethnic or national ancestry.

It's important to remember that the variations in DNA among humans are very small: "...the genetic difference between individual humans today is minuscule – about 0.1%, on average".*

The DNA differences used to estimate the ethnic or national ancestry of a person are called Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs). "Single nucleotide polymorphisms, frequently called SNPs (pronounced “snips”), are the most common type of genetic variation among people. Each SNP represents a difference in a single DNA building block, called a nucleotide. For example, a SNP may replace the nucleotide cytosine (C) with the nucleotide thymine (T) in a certain stretch of DNA." **

"Many SNPs are meaningless when it comes to our health. But they can be useful starting points for tracing ancestry. That’s because, like everything else in our genome, SNPs are passed down through the generations. The more SNPs we share in common with another person, the more likely we share a similar, and more recent, ancestry. Your ancestry is estimated by comparing your SNP results with a genetic database of people with {supposedly} known ancestries...." These SNP tests look for known SNPs among the approximately 3 billion base pairs in the human nuclear genome in order the estimate ethnic or national ancestry as well as potential genetic tendencies for certain diseases. These SNP tests look for known SNPs among the approximately 3 billion base pairs in the human nuclear genome.***

* http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics

** https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/genomicresearch/snp

*** https://www.vox.com/science-and-heal...ence-explainer

Thus, the DNA testing method, analysis of Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs), used to estimate a person's ethnic or national ancestry and potential for certain diseases, is quite different from the Short Tandem Repeat (STR) method, used, for example, to definitively compare the DNA left at a crime scene with the DNA of other individuals, and also in paternity and maternity tests.

Here is a brief description of some key elements of the STR methodology and its rationale:

"Stretches of the human genome {at some places along the chromosomes} consist of short sequences of DNA which are repeated in tandem. The number of blocks of these short sequence repeats in a given locus is highly variable between unrelated individuals. These repeated sequences are known as variable number of tandem repeat sequences (VNTR). VNTRs are broadly characterized into mini- and micro-satellites based on the size of the repeated blocks. In micro-satellites, the sequence repeat unit consists of between 2 to 9 base pairs, while mini-satellites consist of between 9 to 100 base pairs. Micro-satellites or STRs are generally more practical to be used for individualization....

STRs are highly polymorphic, and alleles of the STR loci are differentiated by the number of copies of the repeat sequence within each of the STR locus. The more STR loci being used for typing, the greater the discrimination value since the likelihood that a single individual has an identical STR profile, that possesses the exact same number of repeat units for all the STR being analyzed, with another individual taken at random in the population becomes extremely rare.

The STRs chosen and validated for typing for personal identification contain tetranucleotide repeats comprising of alleles of discrete size. Commercially robust and validated STR multiplex kits are available. The kits also include allelic ladder for each STR locus, which incorporates all the alleles of the STR locus so far known. This helps in the precise assignment of each allele and also in assigning the allele number.

The microsatellite alleles for a particular locus are codominant. In a given individual there are 2 alleles which are inherited in a Mendelian fashion. This means that an individual receives one allele from the mother and the other allele from the father. The two alleles are either heterozygous - the alleles are different or, homozygous - both the alleles are of the same type.

Currently, time and expense limit an examination of an individual’s entire genome, which would show unique identity. Due to the fact that DNA typing is only an examination of a DNA sample’s sequence and/or length at discrete locations, a match in DNA typing is always a statistical exercise. In order to determine the probability that a particular genotype might occur at random in a population, population data must be compiled to make an estimate of the frequency of each possible allele and genotype. Usually a sample size of greater than 100 is sufficient to make reliable projections about a genotype’s frequency in a larger population...."

Population databases are compiled based on ethnic or racial groups. Population subdivisions are not taken into account in the distribution of alleles.

The report {of the US National Research Council, 1996} further advocated that however, if a large number of loci are typed, the DNA profile obtained from the evidence can be so rare that it is highly likely that a suspect with a matching profile is the source of that evidence."****

**** https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3561883/
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:34 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Some posters and lurkers here may be confused about the fact that STR DNA profiles do not necessarily give information on a person's ethnic or national ancestry.

It's important to remember that the variations in DNA among humans are very small: "...the genetic difference between individual humans today is minuscule – about 0.1%, on average".*

The DNA differences used to estimate the ethnic or national ancestry of a person are called Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs). "Single nucleotide polymorphisms, frequently called SNPs (pronounced “snips”), are the most common type of genetic variation among people. Each SNP represents a difference in a single DNA building block, called a nucleotide. For example, a SNP may replace the nucleotide cytosine (C) with the nucleotide thymine (T) in a certain stretch of DNA." **

"Many SNPs are meaningless when it comes to our health. But they can be useful starting points for tracing ancestry. That’s because, like everything else in our genome, SNPs are passed down through the generations. The more SNPs we share in common with another person, the more likely we share a similar, and more recent, ancestry. Your ancestry is estimated by comparing your SNP results with a genetic database of people with {supposedly} known ancestries...." These SNP tests look for known SNPs among the approximately 3 billion base pairs in the human nuclear genome in order the estimate ethnic or national ancestry as well as potential genetic tendencies for certain diseases. These SNP tests look for known SNPs among the approximately 3 billion base pairs in the human nuclear genome.***

* http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics

** https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/genomicresearch/snp

*** https://www.vox.com/science-and-heal...ence-explainer

Thus, the DNA testing method, analysis of Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs), used to estimate a person's ethnic or national ancestry and potential for certain diseases, is quite different from the Short Tandem Repeat (STR) method, used, for example, to definitively compare the DNA left at a crime scene with the DNA of other individuals, and also in paternity and maternity tests.

Here is a brief description of some key elements of the STR methodology and its rationale:

"Stretches of the human genome {at some places along the chromosomes} consist of short sequences of DNA which are repeated in tandem. The number of blocks of these short sequence repeats in a given locus is highly variable between unrelated individuals. These repeated sequences are known as variable number of tandem repeat sequences (VNTR). VNTRs are broadly characterized into mini- and micro-satellites based on the size of the repeated blocks. In micro-satellites, the sequence repeat unit consists of between 2 to 9 base pairs, while mini-satellites consist of between 9 to 100 base pairs. Micro-satellites or STRs are generally more practical to be used for individualization....

STRs are highly polymorphic, and alleles of the STR loci are differentiated by the number of copies of the repeat sequence within each of the STR locus. The more STR loci being used for typing, the greater the discrimination value since the likelihood that a single individual has an identical STR profile, that possesses the exact same number of repeat units for all the STR being analyzed, with another individual taken at random in the population becomes extremely rare.

The STRs chosen and validated for typing for personal identification contain tetranucleotide repeats comprising of alleles of discrete size. Commercially robust and validated STR multiplex kits are available. The kits also include allelic ladder for each STR locus, which incorporates all the alleles of the STR locus so far known. This helps in the precise assignment of each allele and also in assigning the allele number.

The microsatellite alleles for a particular locus are codominant. In a given individual there are 2 alleles which are inherited in a Mendelian fashion. This means that an individual receives one allele from the mother and the other allele from the father. The two alleles are either heterozygous - the alleles are different or, homozygous - both the alleles are of the same type.

Currently, time and expense limit an examination of an individual’s entire genome, which would show unique identity. Due to the fact that DNA typing is only an examination of a DNA sample’s sequence and/or length at discrete locations, a match in DNA typing is always a statistical exercise. In order to determine the probability that a particular genotype might occur at random in a population, population data must be compiled to make an estimate of the frequency of each possible allele and genotype. Usually a sample size of greater than 100 is sufficient to make reliable projections about a genotype’s frequency in a larger population...."

Population databases are compiled based on ethnic or racial groups. Population subdivisions are not taken into account in the distribution of alleles.

The report {of the US National Research Council, 1996} further advocated that however, if a large number of loci are typed, the DNA profile obtained from the evidence can be so rare that it is highly likely that a suspect with a matching profile is the source of that evidence."****

**** https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3561883/
People who send off for DNA kits often do so to find out about kinship or ancestry. However, the sequencing is exactly the same as in forensic criminology, just a different perspective. Loci are named and numbered and 'traits' listed depending of how your DNA from one parent matches up with another.

There are of course various types, autosomal, mitochondrial or STR's. The latter can be used to see how well related you are to Neanderthals, Neolithics and other ancient DNA.
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Old 7th November 2019, 10:11 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
People who send off for DNA kits often do so to find out about kinship or ancestry. However, the sequencing is exactly the same as in forensic criminology, just a different perspective. Loci are named and numbered and 'traits' listed depending of how your DNA from one parent matches up with another.

There are of course various types, autosomal, mitochondrial or STR's. The latter can be used to see how well related you are to Neanderthals, Neolithics and other ancient DNA.
At the risk of repeating myself, DNA sequencing and profiling are not the same thing. Neither ancestry tests or forensic DNA testing typically involve sequenciing
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Old 7th November 2019, 10:27 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Raffaele Sollecito's DNA is on her underwear. It's irrefutable.
So?

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Old 7th November 2019, 10:51 AM   #141
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Let's not get diverted with all this irrelevant talk of whether DNA reveals our ethnicity accurately. Numbers' point in bringing it up was to show that "it is not at all uncommon for persons of differing genetic, ethnic or national backgrounds to have some of the same alleles at some loci...". It was relevant because he showed how RS, AK, and RG shared alleles in the bra hook sample. Vixen diverted from that point to discussing if English, French and British ancestry can be distinguished from each other. How is that at all relevant to Number's point or to 165B?

Vixen, will you admit that

1. you have no evidence that Wikileaks found an email from Clinton saying she would look into the case?

2. that Vinci said there was some
a)compatible* DNA of Knox on the bra,
b) he did not say Knox's DNA was on the bra, and
c) he concluded that the DNA could not be used to identify the donor?


3.Will you admit the David Balding's own computer program ruled out Knox's DNA was on the bra?

*Remember that compatibility is not the same thing as matching.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 7th November 2019 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 7th November 2019, 11:14 AM   #142
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Raffaele Sollecito's DNA is on her underwear. It's irrefutable.
Lukis Anderson's DNA was under murder victim Raveesh Kumra's fingernails. It's irrefutable. Anderson was convicted, and then exonerated, of the crime.

You want to take a wild guess why?

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/a...y-his-own-dna/
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Old 7th November 2019, 11:31 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Let's not get diverted with all this irrelevant talk of whether DNA reveals our ethnicity accurately. Numbers' point in bringing it up was to show that "it is not at all uncommon for persons of differing genetic, ethnic or national backgrounds to have some of the same alleles at some loci...". It was relevant because he showed how RS, AK, and RG shared alleles in the bra hook sample. Vixen diverted from that point to discussing if English, French and British ancestry can be distinguished from each other. How is that at all relevant to Number's point or to 165B?

Vixen, will you admit that

1. you have no evidence that Wikileaks found an email from Clinton saying she would look into the case?

2. that Vinci said there was some
a)compatible* DNA of Knox on the bra,
b) he did not say Knox's DNA was on the bra, and
c) he concluded that the DNA could not be used to identify the donor?


3.Will you admit the David Balding's own computer program ruled out Knox's DNA was on the bra?

*Remember that compatibility is not the same thing as matching.
'Compatibility' is always the term used in criminal forensics. Thus, if a fingerprint matches yours in at least 18 points it is said to be 'compatible' with yours, not 'it is yours' or 'it is not yours'. A statistical probability is expected. If it is ony a partial fingerprint then it will say so.

So when the criminal courts ruled the DNA was compatible with Sollecito, you know it's pretty damning.
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Old 7th November 2019, 11:33 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Lukis Anderson's DNA was under murder victim Raveesh Kumra's fingernails. It's irrefutable. Anderson was convicted, and then exonerated, of the crime.

You want to take a wild guess why?

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/a...y-his-own-dna/
Poor logic. It's like saying, 'smoking doesn't cause cancer, as my friend's granddad lived to 108 and he smoked three packets of fags a day since age of eleven.'
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Old 7th November 2019, 12:02 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Let's not get diverted with all this irrelevant talk of whether DNA reveals our ethnicity accurately. Numbers' point in bringing it up was to show that "it is not at all uncommon for persons of differing genetic, ethnic or national backgrounds to have some of the same alleles at some loci...". It was relevant because he showed how RS, AK, and RG shared alleles in the bra hook sample. Vixen diverted from that point to discussing if English, French and British ancestry can be distinguished from each other. How is that at all relevant to Number's point or to 165B?

Vixen, will you admit that

1. you have no evidence that Wikileaks found an email from Clinton saying she would look into the case?

2. that Vinci said there was some
a)compatible* DNA of Knox on the bra,
b) he did not say Knox's DNA was on the bra, and
c) he concluded that the DNA could not be used to identify the donor?


3.Will you admit the David Balding's own computer program ruled out Knox's DNA was on the bra?

*Remember that compatibility is not the same thing as matching.
Yes, that was my main point.

I also wanted to point out the difference between the STR DNA profiling method used in attempts to identify an individual to the SNP DNA comparison method used in attempts to estimate the ethnicity or nationality or the tendency for certain diseases in an individual.

It may be of interest that NIST (the US Federal Government's National Institute of Standards and Technology) maintains a database of known STRs used for forensic purposes. Here's some information from their many web pages on the topic:

"Tandemly repeated DNA sequences are widespread throughout the human genome and show sufficient variability among individuals in a population that they have become important in several fields including genetic mapping, linkage analysis, and human identity testing. These tandemly repeated regions of DNA are typically classified into several groups depending on the size of the repeat region. Minisatellites (variable number of tandem repeats, VNTRs) have core repeats with 9-80 bp, while microsatellites (short tandem repeats, STRs) contain 2-5 bp repeats. The forensic DNA community has moved primarily towards tetranucleotide repeats, which may be amplified using the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) with greater fidelity than dinucleotide repeats. The variety of alleles present in a population is such that a high degree of discrimination among individuals in the population may be obtained when multiple STR loci are examined."

Source: https://strbase.nist.gov/intro.htm

Neither STR nor SNP methods as practiced involve sequencing the genome; however, the development of both methods would not have been possible without the accomplishments of human genome sequencing research.

Last edited by Numbers; 7th November 2019 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 7th November 2019, 12:36 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Compatibility' is always the term used in criminal forensics. Thus, if a fingerprint matches yours in at least 18 points it is said to be 'compatible' with yours, not 'it is yours' or 'it is not yours'. A statistical probability is expected. If it is ony a partial fingerprint then it will say so.

So when the criminal courts ruled the DNA was compatible with Sollecito, you know it's pretty damning.
"Compatibility' is always the term used in criminal forensics."

Really?

Massei Report:

Quote:
Amanda's and Raffaele's DNA were both found on the cigarette
stub,
pg 270

Quote:
no other object apart from the
hooks was shown to carry Raffaele Sollecito's DNA
pg 275

Quote:
Revealing such traces not only helps to
reconstruct the dynamic of the events, but can also allow analysable DNA to be found that may yield the genetic profile of the individual who left it
. Stefanoni, pg 183

Quote:
the sample L3, taken from Knox's room, as well as the other two (L4 and L5) yielded Knox's genetic profile. Of the samples L6, L7, L8 and L9, only L8 (item 183) from the corridor, almost in the middle of the corridor in front of the door to Amanda Knox's room, gave the result: victim plus Knox.
pg 193

[quote]The only traces that yielded a genetic profile were traces A and B; trace A yielded the genetic profile of Knox and trace B yielded the genetic profile of the victim.[/QUOTE] pg 196

Quote:
Forensics held that the genetic profile which emerged was the victimís.
Tagliabracci, pg 244

Exactly where does the word "compatible" appear in these quotes from the Massei Court report?

Stefanoni:
Quote:
And the material on the blade matches the victim.
Quote:
These samples match Knox and the victim
https://www.thedailybeast.com/mix-of...rs-blood-found

Quote:
If Sollecito's DNA had somehow traveled from the butt to the clasp, then there would be Knox's DNA as well on the clasp
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-2350092.html

Where is the word "compatible" in Stefanoni's quotes?
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Old 7th November 2019, 12:41 PM   #147
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Raffaele Sollecito's DNA is on her underwear. It's irrefutable.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Lukis Anderson's DNA was under murder victim Raveesh Kumra's fingernails. It's irrefutable. Anderson was convicted, and then exonerated, of the crime.

You want to take a wild guess why?

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/a...y-his-own-dna/
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Poor logic. It's like saying, 'smoking doesn't cause cancer, as my friend's granddad lived to 108 and he smoked three packets of fags a day since age of eleven.'
There's poor logic here, but it isn't in my post. Why? Because we are talking about the innocent transfer of DNA by contamination which has zero to do with smoking and how long someone lives. But nice try.
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Old 7th November 2019, 04:30 PM   #148
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Regarding HRC meeting with Cantwell, I've yet to find any information that an actual meeting ever took place. Perhaps Vixen can provide evidence of this? Or not.
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Old 7th November 2019, 04:53 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Regarding HRC meeting with Cantwell, I've yet to find any information that an actual meeting ever took place. Perhaps Vixen can provide evidence of this? Or not.


It wouldn't even matter if the two HAD met to discuss the case, nor if anyone from the State Dept had communicated to Italy the US Government's interest in how its citizen's trial was being handled by the Italian criminal justice system.

The only thing that would have mattered (and it would of course have been improper) is if the US Govt had placed the Italian judiciary under either explicit or implicit pressure to acquit Knox. There's absolutely zero evidence that this ever happened. Furthermore, it's not even as if the US has any levers it could use against Italy - even if it wanted to: the US does not provide any significant financial aid to Italy (therefore no possibility of threatening to withhold such aid), and matters such as defence and general trade come under the aegis of the European Union and not Italy (therefore likewise no possibility of threats against Italy specifically).

On top of all that, in a liberalised democracy the judiciary is meant to (and is designed to) operate entirely independently of the executive and legislative branches of government, without fear or favour. So even if the US Government had somehow found a way to threaten the Italian Government, there should/would still have been zero reason for this to have affected the decision-making process of the Italian judiciary in this matter*.

So no, there's 1) no evidence to suggest any improper interference by the US Government in this trial process, and 2) no feasible pathway for any such interference to have occurred in any case.



* Unless, of course, Vixen wants to claim that the Italian criminal justice system is so broken, dysfunctional, corrupt and unlawfully craven to the executive that it based its judgements on what it was told to do by Italy's ruling politicians. But if Vixen IS suggesting such a scenario, maybe even she might figure out the double-bind that would place her in vis-a-vis the entire judicial process against Knox and Sollecito.......
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Old 7th November 2019, 05:01 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
There's poor logic here, but it isn't in my post. Why? Because we are talking about the innocent transfer of DNA by contamination which has zero to do with smoking and how long someone lives. But nice try.


Yes, but there's still irony to be found in Vixen attempting that analogy in respect of your example. Because to follow through on her analogy would be, in effect, to say that it's incorrect to claim that if a man lives to 108 then he cannot have smoked three packs of cigarettes a day since the age of eleven.

In other words, to come back to our case, your contamination example only goes to illustrate that just because Sollecito's DNA was identified on the bra clasp, it's incorrect to claim that Sollecito must have had primary contact with the bra clasp.

So ironically, Vixen's analogy has the unintended effect of having her argument hoist with its own petard......
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Old 7th November 2019, 05:05 PM   #151
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LJ, I agree 100%. I just find it interesting that Vixen claims that there is an email from Clinton agreeing to "look into" the case which no one, including her, can produce. Yet, she says I need instruction on how to search the internet and, when she is asked to provide said email, her response is "What am I, your nanny?"

ETA: I also agree with you post re her 'smoking' analogy.

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Old 7th November 2019, 05:11 PM   #152
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I trust that you also loved my most excellent Shakespeare quote at the end of my previous post
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Old 7th November 2019, 05:21 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I trust that you also loved my most excellent Shakespeare quote at the end of my previous post
I can no other answer make, but, thanks, and thanks.
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Old 7th November 2019, 07:44 PM   #154
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Compatibility' is always the term used in criminal forensics. Thus, if a fingerprint matches yours in at least 18 points it is said to be 'compatible' with yours, not 'it is yours' or 'it is not yours'. A statistical probability is expected. If it is ony a partial fingerprint then it will say so.

So when the criminal courts ruled the DNA was compatible with Sollecito, you know it's pretty damning.
No it isn't. All compatibility means is, well, that it is compatible. It doesn't mean it is a match. Things that match are damning - but even then not conclusive. Things that are compatible mean you don't rule out that there might be a match, but there still needs to be that second something-or-other that proves a match.

And even if it is a match, that still does not mean that primary contact is conclusive. Unless those wishing to prove that it is conclusive can rule out some contamination event, then the whole thing collapses as safe evidence.

Like when Stefanoni had to admit under oath that she herself could not rule out that she'd touched the bra-clasp with obviously dirty gloves. Like is evidenced by the picture her own staff took of the bra-clasp collection.

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Old 7th November 2019, 08:42 PM   #155
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Vixen needs to understand the difference between something that is 'compatible' and a 'match'. For example, the kitchen knife was 'compatible' with the largest wound on Kercher, but that does not mean it was the knife that actually inflicted the wound. Many unserrated knives could have also made that wound, including the one that left its outline on the sheet. Lalli originally told Mignini he thought only one knife made all the wounds. The two knife scenario was invented by Mignini.
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Old 8th November 2019, 12:49 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Regarding HRC meeting with Cantwell, I've yet to find any information that an actual meeting ever took place. Perhaps Vixen can provide evidence of this? Or not.
What? Cantwell was a congressman and would almost certainly have crossed paths with Hillary some time or other.

We do know the US State Department tried to stick their oar into another country's justice system.
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Old 8th November 2019, 12:51 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
It wouldn't even matter if the two HAD met to discuss the case, nor if anyone from the State Dept had communicated to Italy the US Government's interest in how its citizen's trial was being handled by the Italian criminal justice system.

The only thing that would have mattered (and it would of course have been improper) is if the US Govt had placed the Italian judiciary under either explicit or implicit pressure to acquit Knox. There's absolutely zero evidence that this ever happened. Furthermore, it's not even as if the US has any levers it could use against Italy - even if it wanted to: the US does not provide any significant financial aid to Italy (therefore no possibility of threatening to withhold such aid), and matters such as defence and general trade come under the aegis of the European Union and not Italy (therefore likewise no possibility of threats against Italy specifically).

On top of all that, in a liberalised democracy the judiciary is meant to (and is designed to) operate entirely independently of the executive and legislative branches of government, without fear or favour. So even if the US Government had somehow found a way to threaten the Italian Government, there should/would still have been zero reason for this to have affected the decision-making process of the Italian judiciary in this matter*.

So no, there's 1) no evidence to suggest any improper interference by the US Government in this trial process, and 2) no feasible pathway for any such interference to have occurred in any case.



* Unless, of course, Vixen wants to claim that the Italian criminal justice system is so broken, dysfunctional, corrupt and unlawfully craven to the executive that it based its judgements on what it was told to do by Italy's ruling politicians. But if Vixen IS suggesting such a scenario, maybe even she might figure out the double-bind that would place her in vis-a-vis the entire judicial process against Knox and Sollecito.......
Did it not declare it would not extradite Knox?

Italy most likely decided, you have her, then.
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Old 8th November 2019, 12:53 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I trust that you also loved my most excellent Shakespeare quote at the end of my previous post
I doubt it. Trump is more her thing.
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Old 8th November 2019, 03:58 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
There's poor logic here, but it isn't in my post. Why? Because we are talking about the innocent transfer of DNA by contamination which has zero to do with smoking and how long someone lives. But nice try.
Instead of you asking me incessant questions, what about if you attempt to answer some of mine?

Will you be questioning the integrity of the forensic scientists in the Grace Spillane case? If not, why not?

Quote:
Scientist Dianne Crenfeldt, from the Institute of Environmental Science and Research (ESR), told the jury she had located two approximately circular probable blood stains between the accused's bed and a wardrobe.

The smaller of the stains was more circular and 'could have come from a bucket', Ms Crenfeldt said.

She added: 'The shape of the probable blood staining and the presence of blood on the floor provided strong support that clean up of blood had occurred in this area.'

You constantly claim anyone associated with the prosecution in the Kercher case is unqualified, unprofessional, corrupt and their results 'all wrong'. Does this only apply to Amanda Knox but not to Myra Hindley, Jodie Arias, Rose West? Was Knox spectacularly unlucky to draw such a short straw?


Conversely, perhaps it's the case everybody is marching in step except you and your cohorts.
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Old 8th November 2019, 07:05 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Vixen needs to understand the difference between something that is 'compatible' and a 'match'. For example, the kitchen knife was 'compatible' with the largest wound on Kercher, but that does not mean it was the knife that actually inflicted the wound. Many unserrated knives could have also made that wound, including the one that left its outline on the sheet. Lalli originally told Mignini he thought only one knife made all the wounds. The two knife scenario was invented by Mignini.


As far as I'm concerned, If the pro-guilt argument wants two knives they can have them. Since K&S were definitively not in Meredith's room, Rudy must have had 2 knives. Why not?

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