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Old 5th November 2019, 11:50 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I said, there you go, because Darat appears to have informed them he or she was English and not -heaven forfend! - Scottish or Irish. The implication of feeling insulted is not lost.
I'm not at all insulted if someone mistakes me for being Irish, Scottish (true or no) or French or European. What is the insult meant to be?
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Old 5th November 2019, 12:11 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yes, that's what I thought. I'm pretty sure I have seen the outside of such a passport, in the immigration queue at some airport or other, and the reason I knew it was a Chinese passport is that the words "People's Republic of China" were printed on the outside cover, in clear, in English, in addition to a bunch of Chinese characters that I of course couldn't read.

If some of the victims in this case had such passports in their possession I really don't see how the police can be criticised for initially believing the victims were indeed Chinese.
This is a problem. I have no issue with with cops finding 39 dead people and having a stab in the dark that they were chinese. It is statiscally likely and I am damned if I could distinguish one east asian from the next. That is not racist, that is reality. I am pretty sure they could not distinguish one pasty white bloke from the next. That is not in any way racist either. It is simply a matter of fact and not racism. The mere fact that I struggle to tell a korean from a chinese does not mean I am being racist. It means I am struggling with a culture not my own.

I am told that Koreans can spot Japanese and vice versa. Like hell. To me they are all people.
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Old 5th November 2019, 12:25 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
How is it racist to mistake or make assumptions about the nationality of people who are the same race, but have different nationalities?
Not everybody of a given superficial racial appearance has the same nationality. Assuming "is Chinese" from "looks Chinese" is applying a racial stereotype.
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Old 5th November 2019, 12:40 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not everybody of a given superficial racial appearance has the same nationality. Assuming "is Chinese" from "looks Chinese" is applying a racial stereotype.
I think that it is too extreme to call someone who goes with the most common nationality of a certain race, racist.

Racism implies a hate, bias, discrimination or antagonism and that some are more superior to others. Initial misidentification of a person's nationality implies none of those things.
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Old 5th November 2019, 01:17 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think that it is too extreme to call someone who goes with the most common nationality of a certain race, racist.

Racism implies a hate, bias, discrimination or antagonism and that some are more superior to others. Initial misidentification of a person's nationality implies none of those things.

I agree. I think it's insulting to people who really do experience actual racism on a daily basis to claim that simply mistaking someone's nationality or ethnic origin from their appearance is "racist".

I've been taken for Dutch or German several times when travelling on the continent and while that's slightly embarrassing (as my facility with these languages is rudimentary) it never occurred to me to consider myself the victim of racism!
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Old 5th November 2019, 01:18 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Now that is very silly, isn't it, because lorryloads of Afghans and Iraqis and who knows what have also been discovered. Unless you're assuming the Chinese ones are the ones who have a special propensity to die.
Ah, we can always rely on you to spectacularly miss the point, can't we?
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Old 5th November 2019, 01:43 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm not at all insulted if someone mistakes me for being Irish, Scottish (true or no) or French or European. What is the insult meant to be?
I've been assumed to be American in Normandy, and Flemish in Belgian Flanders.

Oh, the humanity!

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Old 5th November 2019, 01:49 PM   #48
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I have been assumed to be;
German in Germany and Switzerland.
English in Scotland
Scottish in England
English in Austria
Australian and Irish in the USA
I never once though of the person who made the error as being racist.
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Old 5th November 2019, 03:25 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
This is a problem. I have no issue with with cops finding 39 dead people and having a stab in the dark that they were chinese. It is statiscally likely and I am damned if I could distinguish one east asian from the next. That is not racist, that is reality. I am pretty sure they could not distinguish one pasty white bloke from the next. That is not in any way racist either. It is simply a matter of fact and not racism. The mere fact that I struggle to tell a korean from a chinese does not mean I am being racist. It means I am struggling with a culture not my own.

I am told that Koreans can spot Japanese and vice versa. Like hell. To me they are all people.
Wow, that is shocking!!!
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Old 5th November 2019, 03:27 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think that it is too extreme to call someone who goes with the most common nationality of a certain race, racist.

Racism implies a hate, bias, discrimination or antagonism and that some are more superior to others. Initial misidentification of a person's nationality implies none of those things.
It's the police's job to 'get it right'. This isn't Fred Bloggs from down the pub ('They all look the same to me').
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Old 5th November 2019, 03:31 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I agree. I think it's insulting to people who really do experience actual racism on a daily basis to claim that simply mistaking someone's nationality or ethnic origin from their appearance is "racist".

I've been taken for Dutch or German several times when travelling on the continent and while that's slightly embarrassing (as my facility with these languages is rudimentary) it never occurred to me to consider myself the victim of racism!
Oh dear.
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Old 5th November 2019, 03:32 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I have been assumed to be;
German in Germany and Switzerland.
English in Scotland
Scottish in England
English in Austria
Australian and Irish in the USA
I never once though of the person who made the error as being racist.
It's amusing to watch you evading the point.
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Old 5th November 2019, 03:49 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh dear.

What's that supposed to mean? That I should go crying to the police to report a hate crime because someone mistakenly thought I was German, because that's as bad as someone calling a black person a "filthy ******"?
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Old 5th November 2019, 09:44 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wow, that is shocking!!!
Why?
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Old 6th November 2019, 12:42 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What's that supposed to mean? That I should go crying to the police to report a hate crime because someone mistakenly thought I was German, because that's as bad as someone calling a black person a "filthy ******"?
Straw man. Your claiming that someone once assumed you were German is the same as an official police force informing the press that 39 murdered migrants were 'Chinese nationals' is an equivalent situation shows you to be wilfully obtuse.
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Old 6th November 2019, 12:46 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Why?
Surely going around saying that 'they all look the same to me' went out with the Ark, and yet that same person demands that we treat transgender teenagers with essential humanity and recognition of their own individual identity.
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Old 6th November 2019, 02:21 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Straw man. Your claiming that someone once assumed you were German is the same as an official police force informing the press that 39 murdered migrants were 'Chinese nationals' is an equivalent situation shows you to be wilfully obtuse.
That is not what Rolfe claimed at all. She never once equated her nationality being mistaken as "the same" as an official police force misidentifying the nationality of those poor souls on that lorry.

What Rolfe, if I may speak for her, was addressing was the incorrect assertion that ones nationality being misidentified is inherently racist.
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Old 6th November 2019, 02:28 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's amusing to watch you evading the point.
My point is that getting someone's nationality wrong is not racist. I have experienced assumptions about my nationality and do not think the person who made the mistake is racist. I am not evading my point.
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:01 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My point is that getting someone's nationality wrong is not racist. I have experienced assumptions about my nationality and do not think the person who made the mistake is racist. I am not evading my point.
Why on earth would anybody assume you were French or German? Sorry, I don't get it. Are you sure that's not your assumption that that's what they were assuming?

More likely you just made it up.
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:04 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why on earth would anybody assume you were French or German? Sorry, I don't get it. Are you sure that's not your assumption that that's what they were assuming?

More likely you just made it up.
I was once in Ieper during the Cat Festival, and went to buy some chocolate in a shop in the Grote Markt. Ahead of me in the queue were some Japanese tourists (which I based on their native speech as much as their looks), who the shop assistant addressed in English, and a French woman who the assistant addressed in French. When she came to serve me, she paused momentarily, and addressed me in Flemish.

Seriously, stop pretending that this sort of thing doesn't happen.

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Old 6th November 2019, 03:04 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
That is not what Rolfe claimed at all. She never once equated her nationality being mistaken as "the same" as an official police force misidentifying the nationality of those poor souls on that lorry.

What Rolfe, if I may speak for her, was addressing was the incorrect assertion that ones nationality being misidentified is inherently racist.
She said she was mistaken for German. Why would she be? Somebody came up to her and said, 'You're German!' ?

I don't believe it.
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:12 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why on earth would anybody assume you were French or German? Sorry, I don't get it. Are you sure that's not your assumption that that's what they were assuming?
If one was to be a European in a place where French or German tourists are the norm, itís quite likely to happen.
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:13 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why on earth would anybody assume you were French or German? Sorry, I don't get it. Are you sure that's not your assumption that that's what they were assuming?

More likely you just made it up.

When someone in Germany (or Switzerland) comes up to me and speaks to me in German, they are assuming I am German. When an Austrian refers to me as English, they have assumed I am English. Same with the Americans who admitted they thought I was Irish or Australian.

You are dodging my point. It is not racist to get someone's nationality wrong.
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:16 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
If one was to be a European in a place where French or German tourists are the norm, it’s quite likely to happen.
Indeed. I was assumed to be American in a shop in Normandy. The hopeful assistant seemed a little disappointed when I said, "Non, non, Anglais."

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Old 6th November 2019, 03:16 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
If one was to be a European in a place where French or German tourists are the norm, itís quite likely to happen.
Or, in my case, you are somewhere where few tourists go. I have a friend and relatives in Germany and Switzerland.
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:23 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I was once in Ieper during the Cat Festival, and went to buy some chocolate in a shop in the Grote Markt. Ahead of me in the queue were some Japanese tourists (which I based on their native speech as much as their looks), who the shop assistant addressed in English, a French woman who the assistant addressed in French. When she came to service me, she paused momentarily, and addressed me in Flemish.

Seriously, stop pretending that this sort of thing doesn't happen.
I was at a museum shop in Reykjavik where I heard the Icelandic staff speak to each other in English. One had learned their English with an American accent. The other sounded more Icelandic. I went up with my purchase and was addressed in Icelandic.

Most Latvians can speak Latvian, Russian and English, especially those who work in tourist areas such as Riga old town and Jurmala. They were spot on and always addressed us in English.
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:32 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Saying it might not be acceptable, but countless scientific studies have found that it is essentially true. People do find it difficult to differentiate between individuals they do not know from what - to them - are minority groups in their own societies.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808554/
I say it all the time, you bloody humans do all look alike to me!
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:35 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
If one was to be a European in a place where French or German tourists are the norm, itís quite likely to happen.
Living in Algeria back in 70s the first thing you tried to make clear when meeting someone new was "I'm not French" otherwise the assumption would be that you were French (and all the baggage that carried).
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:40 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Surely going around saying that 'they all look the same to me' went out with the Ark, and yet that same person demands that we treat transgender teenagers with essential humanity and recognition of their own individual identity.
I didn't say that. Inventing such an interpretation of what I actually said is merely a projection of your own making. And it's creepy.
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Old 6th November 2019, 05:10 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I was once in Ieper during the Cat Festival, and went to buy some chocolate in a shop in the Grote Markt. Ahead of me in the queue were some Japanese tourists (which I based on their native speech as much as their looks), who the shop assistant addressed in English, and a French woman who the assistant addressed in French. When she came to serve me, she paused momentarily, and addressed me in Flemish.

Seriously, stop pretending that this sort of thing doesn't happen.

Yeah, several times I've been asked directions in Holland by people who assumed I was local. Sometimes they were even speaking Dutch. Embarrassing to try to explain that while I sort of understood the question I had no idea about where they wanted to go and couldn't possibly have directed them in Dutch even if I had.

I've often been taken for German when visiting other European countries, especially where there are mixed groups of tourists around.

I didn't think of reporting them for a hate crime, mind you.
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Old 6th November 2019, 05:14 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Straw man. Your claiming that someone once assumed you were German is the same as an official police force informing the press that 39 murdered migrants were 'Chinese nationals' is an equivalent situation shows you to be wilfully obtuse.

No, I'm pointing out that someone mistaking a blonde, blue-eyed woman for German in a perfectly pleasant social setting is not a racist hate crime. It's insulting to all those people who are regularly in receipt of real racist discrimination on a daily basis.
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Old 6th November 2019, 05:15 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Saying it might not be acceptable, but countless scientific studies have found that it is essentially true. People do find it difficult to differentiate between individuals they do not know from what - to them - are minority groups in their own societies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808554/

All sheep look the same, unless you're a shepherd. That is actually literally true.
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Old 6th November 2019, 05:16 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
That is not what Rolfe claimed at all. She never once equated her nationality being mistaken as "the same" as an official police force misidentifying the nationality of those poor souls on that lorry.

What Rolfe, if I may speak for her, was addressing was the incorrect assertion that ones nationality being misidentified is inherently racist.

Exactly. Thank you.
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Old 6th November 2019, 05:19 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
She said she was mistaken for German. Why would she be? Somebody came up to her and said, 'You're German!' ?

I don't believe it.

Oh for goodness sake, I think enough people have addressed this already. Someone turns to you and starts speaking fluent German to you is usually a clue. (So is someone approaching you and asking hesitantly, "Sprechen Sie English?)
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Old 8th November 2019, 01:35 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh for goodness sake, I think enough people have addressed this already. Someone turns to you and starts speaking fluent German to you is usually a clue. (So is someone approaching you and asking hesitantly, "Sprechen Sie English?)
If you visit a foreign country and you walk into a local shop, when the assistant addresses you in their local language, no, they are not thinking you are German or one of them. I promise you, they have a hundred and one different things to think about than some sundry customer wandering in.
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Old 8th November 2019, 01:39 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
No, I'm pointing out that someone mistaking a blonde, blue-eyed woman for German in a perfectly pleasant social setting is not a racist hate crime. It's insulting to all those people who are regularly in receipt of real racist discrimination on a daily basis.
What nonsense you spout. If you want to know what racist hate against Germans is, then ask any German who might have spent the post-war years as a young school boy (as someone I know did) in London or a German who's lived in England any length of time and they'll tell you all about anti-German hostility.
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Old 8th November 2019, 01:43 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What nonsense you spout. If you want to know what racist hate against Germans is, then ask any German who might have spent the post-war years as a young school boy (as someone I know did) in London or a German who's lived in England any length of time and they'll tell you all about anti-German hostility.

Hang on, if I'm the one being mistaken for a race/nationality I don't belong to, wasn't the premise that this was racist against me? (No it's not.)

And my point was that having someone innocently mistake me for German is not racist hate, and it is insulting to those (such as the boy you refer to) who are the victims of actual racist hate.
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Old 8th November 2019, 01:45 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you visit a foreign country and you walk into a local shop, when the assistant addresses you in their local language, no, they are not thinking you are German or one of them. I promise you, they have a hundred and one different things to think about than some sundry customer wandering in.

Please point out where I said anything about walking into a local shop?
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Old 8th November 2019, 01:45 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What nonsense you spout. If you want to know what racist hate against Germans is, then ask any German who might have spent the post-war years as a young school boy (as someone I know did) in London or a German who's lived in England any length of time and they'll tell you all about anti-German hostility.
Germans are a nationality not a race.
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Old 8th November 2019, 01:48 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yeah, several times I've been asked directions in Holland by people who assumed I was local. Sometimes they were even speaking Dutch. Embarrassing to try to explain that while I sort of understood the question I had no idea about where they wanted to go and couldn't possibly have directed them in Dutch even if I had.

I've often been taken for German when visiting other European countries, especially where there are mixed groups of tourists around.

I didn't think of reporting them for a hate crime, mind you.
If you are in Holland why wouldn't they ask directions in Dutch?

Perhaps it's they way you speak and they think you are foreign. Everywhere I go, as soon as I open my mouth they know instantly I am English. It's an accent renowned the world over, thanks to corny James Bond or Hugh Grant films. I've had a cab driver proudly show me his Man U football shirt no sooner had I got into his taxi.

My then sixteen-year-old son was literally mobbed everywhere we went in the USA, with a couple of girls actually grappling him to the ground as soon as they discovered he was English. A sort of Prince Harry/William substitute. (He had a striking resemblance.)
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