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Tags murder cases , Oscar Pistorius , South Africa cases

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Old 3rd November 2017, 09:53 AM   #841
MikeG
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Prosecutors are at the Supreme Court arguing for an extension of Pistorius' sentence. They are seeking 15 years in place of the 6 he was given. BBC
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Old 3rd November 2017, 11:30 PM   #842
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Prosecutors are at the Supreme Court arguing for an extension of Pistorius' sentence. They are seeking 15 years in place of the 6 he was given. BBC
Rats! I forgot that the application for leave to appeal began today. Here's a summary, more at the link:

Quote:
JUDGES:

Ronnie Bosielo, Willie Seriti, Pieter Meyer, Colin Lamont, Fikile Mokgohloa

LAWYERS:

Andrea Johnson for prosecution

Barry Roux for defense
...
10:24am – Johnson: “I refer this court to its judgement – as a matter of common sense at the time the fatal shots were fired the possibility the person behind the door would be killed was clearly an obvious result.”
...
10:28am – Johnson says dolus eventualis is serious and the mitigating factors delivered by the defense were not sufficient – there were no substantial compelling factors why Oscar received a less than 15 years sentence

10:35am – Johnson says Judge Masipa elevated Pistorius’ regret
...
Johnson speaks the whopping obvious – the first step to proper rehab is acknowledging what you have done. Oscar has never acknowledged what he’s done… he’s made excuses, sobbed for himself, changed his stories, changed his defenses.
...
Tea Break
...
Roux starts now with the “slow burn” argument that he used at the last appeal proceedings. Disabled Oscar has had fears brewing his whole life. He argues, Oscar has an anxiety disorder.
...
Johnson back up and reads from Masipa’s judgement. Even Masipa noted she felt unease over the witness after witness giving testimony about Oscar’s vulnerability – in other words, it was over-emphasized.
https://shakedowntitle.com/2017/11/0...vember-3-2017/

Quote:
In handing down sentence, Judge Masipa said that there were “substantial and compelling reasons” to deviate from the 15-year minimum sentence for murder, citing as one factor the continuing misperception that Pistorius had intended to kill his girlfriend.

She listed mitigating factors as:

-Pistorius was vulnerable on his stumps without his protheses.
-He believed the person in the bathroom was an intruder.
-He “immediately took steps to try to save the deceased’s life”.
-The judge believed he was genuinely remorseful.

She said the aggravating factors were:

-Pistorius used a lethal weapon, with high-grade ammunition.
-He fired four times, “knowing full well” there was someone in the bathroom.
-He did not take the precaution of firing a warning shot.
https://www.rnews.co.za/article/1717...entence-appeal

The judges have reserved their decision for a future date. No date given.

Last edited by Scordatura; 3rd November 2017 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 4th November 2017, 10:01 AM   #843
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This is all nonsense of the highest order. In a failed state paranoia and fear are the oxygen fueling behaviour. Attack the cause not the symptoms. Pistorious should be released immediately.
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Old 4th November 2017, 12:04 PM   #844
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Failed states fail when they allow murderers to go free. If he fired those shots through the door then he is a murderer. I don't know why this is so difficult for you, but at least you can't blame Theresa May for it this time.
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Old 4th November 2017, 04:26 PM   #845
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Interesting point about Theresa May. I think of this epoch as the day of the woman. May, Merkel, Clinton, Ardern, Ghandi, and Masipa. The gentle touch. Helen Winkelmann is a name to watch in dispensing Southern hemisphere justice.
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Old 5th November 2017, 01:59 AM   #846
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is all nonsense of the highest order. In a failed state paranoia and fear are the oxygen fueling behaviour. Attack the cause not the symptoms. Pistorious should be released immediately.
No, I don't believe men who slaughter their significant others should be "released immediately" because the live in failed states. Plenty of men, handicapped and otherwise, manage to avoid murdering their girlfriends while living in violent societies.
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Old 5th November 2017, 02:59 AM   #847
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is all nonsense of the highest order. In a failed state paranoia and fear are the oxygen fueling behaviour. Attack the cause not the symptoms. Pistorious should be released immediately.
Won't happen. I'm betting on a decent sentence now that this is in the hands of decent judges.
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Old 5th November 2017, 06:36 PM   #848
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is all nonsense of the highest order. In a failed state paranoia and fear are the oxygen fueling behaviour. Attack the cause not the symptoms. Pistorious should be released immediately.
It's not nonsense; both appeals are based in South African law, not emotions. Whatever her personal reasons were, judge Masipa started the whole appeal process herself when she misinterpreted the law and on September 12, 2014 found Oscar guilty of culpable homicide instead of murder. Had she correctly understood the law she would have found him guilty under dolus eventualis.

In December of 2015 the SCA upheld the first appeal after agreeing that Masipa made an error in law, not fact.

Quote:
Legal intention in the form of dolus eventualis ─ trial court incorrectly applying the principles thereof ─ constitutes an error of law.

Inference of fact to be drawn from the totality of the evidence ─ trial court not taking all the relevant evidence into account in determining the presence or otherwise of dolus eventualis ─ this also constitutes an error of law.

On a proper conspectus of all the evidence, the trial court ought to have found that the accused had been guilty of murder and not culpable homicide, and that his defence of putative private defence could not be sustained. Conviction of culpable homicide and the sentence imposed for that offence set aside under s 322 of CPA and the matter remitted to the trial court to impose sentence afresh.

https://cdn.24.co.za/files/Cms/Gener...316c9e413b.pdf

On July 6, 2016 Masipa then sentenced Oscar to 6 years for his murder conviction instead of the minimum sentence of 15 years, arguing that he had already served 12 months and was remorseful.

Remorseful IMO because Masipa fell for Oscar's courtroom antics of vomiting and snot-dripping boo-hooing, along with his loud, howling cries over Reeva's body and and begging God to help her.

Masipa also claimed that there was no evidence that Oscar's and Reeva's relationship was ever violent, despite Reeva's texts telling Oscar that she was sometimes afraid of him. Masipa also glossed over Oscar's violent actions in the past - shooting his gun through a car sunroof, "accidentally" firing a gun in a crowded restaurant and so on.

It's clear that Masipa, who said "Our courts are courts of law, not courts of public opinion" didn't include her own opinion when deciding Oscar's fate. I look forward to hearing judges who are not swayed by Oscar's fame and Olympic medals to decide his sentence.
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Old 24th November 2017, 01:43 AM   #849
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Sentence increased to the minimum term of 15 years, less time served.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-42107701
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Old 24th November 2017, 01:46 AM   #850
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Oh good.
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Old 24th November 2017, 02:09 AM   #851
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Sentence increased to the minimum term of 15 years, less time served.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-42107701
Still seems light to me. He jealously and callously cut her life short by 60 years or more and will still have 40 years or so of his own left when he gets out.

Won't be quite as quick, though.
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Old 24th November 2017, 03:49 AM   #852
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I wonder if he'll file an appeal to the Constitutional Court.
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Old 24th November 2017, 04:13 AM   #853
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Still seems light to me. He jealously and callously cut her life short by 60 years or more and will still have 40 years or so of his own left when he gets out.

Won't be quite as quick, though.
Not so. But hang em highers win this round. I hope he appeals.
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Old 24th November 2017, 04:18 AM   #854
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Still seems light to me. He jealously and callously cut her life short by 60 years or more and will still have 40 years or so of his own left when he gets out.

Won't be quite as quick, though.
It's always the way. There is rarely adequate recompense for a callous murder.
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Old 24th November 2017, 04:21 AM   #855
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Not so. But hang em highers win this round. I hope he appeals.
There's an interesting article here by Cybershrink about the weird phenomenon of Oscar Pistorius' fanatical supporters:

Quote:
If jumping to conclusions were an Olympic event, these guys would win gold. “I refuse to pass judgement,” says another, overlooking the fact that she is in fact passing judgement, by refusing to consider that Oscar might not be innocent.
Judge Masipa should be demoted, as she is clearly not up to her job.
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Old 24th November 2017, 04:22 AM   #856
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Originally Posted by Scordatura View Post
I wonder if he'll file an appeal to the Constitutional Court.
...on the grounds of...?
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Old 24th November 2017, 04:26 AM   #857
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At last. Bravo.
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Old 24th November 2017, 04:35 AM   #858
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Not so. But hang em highers win this round. I hope he appeals.
No hang-'em-highers here. He was found guilty of murder. Did you miss that?

The minimum sentence for murder in South Africa is 15 years, and exceptions shouldn't be made for people because of their celebrity. Do you disagree with any of that?

Oh, and you may have missed it but that WAS the Court of Appeal, and he has appealed previously. You are obviously ignoring facts and resorting to emotion again, which is fine, but that is the reason why we have courts take charge of these sorts of things rather than some sort of popularity contest.
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Old 24th November 2017, 06:06 AM   #859
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Still seems light to me. He jealously and callously cut her life short by 60 years or more and will still have 40 years or so of his own left when he gets out.

I think the sentence being the minimum set down for the crime is due to the court not sentencing on the basis that he intentionally killed Reeva in a blind fury, but rather on the basis that he deliberately shot someone he believed was an intruder who was hiding in his bathroom. I think this is just.

My own suspicion is that he did indeed kill Reeva intentionally in a blind fury, but that's only a belief, not something that can be determined beyond reasonable doubt. It's therefore correct in law and in justice that he should be sentenced without taking that into account.

Pretty decent outcome I think, and I agree that Masipa behaved very unprofessionally, which is a shame.
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Old 24th November 2017, 07:51 AM   #860
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There's an interesting article here by Cybershrink about the weird phenomenon of Oscar Pistorius' fanatical supporters:

I like "They are not giving him the benefit of the doubt, they’re giving him the benefit of no doubt whatsoever."

I wonder if these people are also clinging blindly to the belief that Pistorius isn't guilty of murder if he didn't know it was Reeva in the room when he shot. But certainly it's been explained often enough that what he actually did is a prima facie case without any need for him to have known it was Reeva.

The relative leniency of the appeal court's sentence, as I said, appears to indicate that he was sentenced on the basis of what he indisputably did, without any assumption that he knew it was Reeva in there. I suspect these rather dim bulbs aren't getting that either, or they just don't want to get it.

He killed someone who wasn't offering an immediate threat to him, ergo he is guilty of murder under the law of South Africa. What is it about this that is so hard for people to understand?

ETA: This (linked from the first) is a good article!
http://www.health24.com/Columnists/H...-plot-20140411
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Old 24th November 2017, 12:25 PM   #861
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Not so. But hang em highers win this round. I hope he appeals.
A reasonable sense of justice prevailed, to some degree. Celebrity culture took a hit.
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Old 24th November 2017, 12:37 PM   #862
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Just so:

Quote:
Rights groups in a country beset by high levels of violent crime against women say Pistorius, 31, received preferential treatment compared to non-whites and those without his wealth or celebrity status.
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Old 24th November 2017, 03:30 PM   #863
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There's an interesting article here by Cybershrink about the weird phenomenon of Oscar Pistorius' fanatical supporters:



Judge Masipa should be demoted, as she is clearly not up to her job.
The evidence at trial supported every aspect of his story. The angle he shot from supports his story. Masipa showed her workings, you don't bother. You are all on the wrong track here.
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Old 24th November 2017, 03:34 PM   #864
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No hang-'em-highers here. He was found guilty of murder. Did you miss that?

The minimum sentence for murder in South Africa is 15 years, and exceptions shouldn't be made for people because of their celebrity. Do you disagree with any of that?

Oh, and you may have missed it but that WAS the Court of Appeal, and he has appealed previously. You are obviously ignoring facts and resorting to emotion again, which is fine, but that is the reason why we have courts take charge of these sorts of things rather than some sort of popularity contest.
I am focussing purely on the question of whether the evidence aligns with his testimony. I have no stake at all, and clearly he made a catastrophic error that wrecked several lives. The penalty should be considered according to whether he shot deliberately at a defenceless woman. This is real Schrodinger's cat country.
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Old 24th November 2017, 03:36 PM   #865
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I like "They are not giving him the benefit of the doubt, they’re giving him the benefit of no doubt whatsoever."

I wonder if these people are also clinging blindly to the belief that Pistorius isn't guilty of murder if he didn't know it was Reeva in the room when he shot. But certainly it's been explained often enough that what he actually did is a prima facie case without any need for him to have known it was Reeva.

The relative leniency of the appeal court's sentence, as I said, appears to indicate that he was sentenced on the basis of what he indisputably did, without any assumption that he knew it was Reeva in there. I suspect these rather dim bulbs aren't getting that either, or they just don't want to get it.

He killed someone who wasn't offering an immediate threat to him, ergo he is guilty of murder under the law of South Africa. What is it about this that is so hard for people to understand?

ETA: This (linked from the first) is a good article!
http://www.health24.com/Columnists/H...-plot-20140411
Somewhere I missed that you are a fanatical devotee of authority Rolfe.
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Old 24th November 2017, 03:45 PM   #866
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The evidence at trial supported every aspect of his story. The angle he shot from supports his story. Masipa showed her workings, you don't bother. You are all on the wrong track here.
Utter nonsense. The evidence shows he is a murderer. Only the star-struck Masipa, along with a bunch of Pistorius groupies (some who grace this thread) see it differently.
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Old 24th November 2017, 04:17 PM   #867
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Somewhere I missed that you are a fanatical devotee of authority Rolfe.

He committed murder according to the law of South Africa. One hardly needs to be a fanatical devotee of authority to acknowledge that. He has been given the minimum sentence for the crime, which is in line with the worst that can be proved against him, which is that he recklessly shot at someone he thought was an intruder, who wasn't an immediate threat to him.

I think that's a just and proportionate outcome and your comments are ridiculous and uncalled-for.
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Old 24th November 2017, 04:26 PM   #868
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The penalty should be considered according to whether he shot deliberately at a defenceless woman.

He was given the minimum sentence for the crime of murder, which he undoubtedly committed. This suggests that the penalty was determined on the basis that he did not deliberately shoot at a defenceless woman. If the sentencing court had thought that he did, he would have been given a higher sentence.

See how it works now? What you are asking for is what has actually happened, but you don't seem to recognise that.
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Old 24th November 2017, 04:35 PM   #869
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Utter nonsense. The evidence shows he is a murderer. Only the star-struck Masipa, along with a bunch of Pistorius groupies (some who grace this thread) see it differently.

To be fair, Lionking, both of you are right. The evidence does support Pistorius's story, and that evidence and indeed his own story demonstrate that he is guilty of murder.
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Old 24th November 2017, 06:04 PM   #870
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Showing mercy is an essential part of a good justice system. However, Masipa didn't have the jurisdiction to change the minimum sentencing down to five years, given the revised verdict.
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Old 24th November 2017, 06:07 PM   #871
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...on the grounds of...?
No idea since he lost his last appeal but it's his legal right. Maybe on the grounds that people are being mean to him.

Quote:
Pistorius' lawyers have one avenue left open to them if they want to challenge the new sentence, and that is to appeal to the Constitutional Court, the highest court in South Africa.

Pistorius failed with an appeal to the Constitutional Court last year to challenge his murder conviction.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/...onths-51357050

Here's the SCA judgment:

http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgme...ca2017-158.pdf
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Old 24th November 2017, 07:04 PM   #872
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Pretty much a deserved sentence really

Took a while

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Old 25th November 2017, 12:06 AM   #873
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
....... The penalty should be considered according to whether he shot deliberately at a defenceless woman........
For the 27th time.........that is an irrelevance.

He shot through a door knowing he would kill whoever was on the other side of the door. That's it. That all it needs. That's murder, right there. It is utterly irrelevant who was on the other side of the door, or who Pistorius thought was on the other side of the door.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I am focussing purely on the question of whether the evidence aligns with his testimony........
As you know, I accept Pistorius' story. It appears to me from the evidence presented that it was the most likely explanation of the nights events. The thing is............it's still murder.
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Old 25th November 2017, 02:49 AM   #874
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I have no idea what Masipa was thinking of. She was wrong in law about the culpable homicide part and then when that was corrected she trashed the sentencing guidelines.
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Old 25th November 2017, 06:18 AM   #875
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A just outcome, in my view. He shot at someone who was shut into a tiny space, with no chance for them to escape. That is murder, whether he thought it was Reeva Steenkamp behind the door or an unknown intruder.

My suspicion is that he did know it was Ms Steenkamp but since that can't be proved, it is right that he is sentenced as if he shot at an unknown intruder.
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Old 25th November 2017, 02:54 PM   #876
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Agree 100%.
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Old 25th November 2017, 02:56 PM   #877
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
A just outcome, in my view. He shot at someone who was shut into a tiny space, with no chance for them to escape. That is murder, whether he thought it was Reeva Steenkamp behind the door or an unknown intruder.

My suspicion is that he did know it was Ms Steenkamp but since that can't be proved, it is right that he is sentenced as if he shot at an unknown intruder.
+1

ETA: For me he was done when his story changed from "I fired because I thought I was in danger" to "the gun accidently went off" because it was clear that his self-defence against someone locked in a toilet wasn't working so he tried to steer it towards I didn't mean to pull the trigger. Bollocks, the guy is lying through his teeth.

I still doubt his story about not knowing it was her because even if he did somehow fail to notice her getting up, instinctively the first thing to do on hearing what you think is an intruder is to wake the other person in the room and tell them what you think is going on. His story is so fishy that it smells like it's been in the cargo hold of a trawler for a week.
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Old 25th November 2017, 03:46 PM   #878
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
For the 27th time.........that is an irrelevance.

He shot through a door knowing he would kill whoever was on the other side of the door. That's it. That all it needs. That's murder, right there. It is utterly irrelevant who was on the other side of the door, or who Pistorius thought was on the other side of the door.

It's irrelevant to the verdict of murder. I'm not convinced it's irrelevant to the length of the sentence. He was given the minimum sentence in the end. I think if it had been proved he'd deliberately shot at Reeva knowing it was her, he should have been given a longer sentence.

Blasting recklessly at a supposed burglar is indeed somewhat further down the scale than shooting your girlfriend after she has run away in fear and tried to barricade herself in the toilet. I'd have expected north of 20 years if that latter scenario had been proven.

But it wasn't, so he got 15 years for the crime that was actually proved and which he actually admitted to.
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Old 25th November 2017, 04:36 PM   #879
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
+1

ETA: For me he was done when his story changed from "I fired because I thought I was in danger" to "the gun accidently went off" because it was clear that his self-defence against someone locked in a toilet wasn't working so he tried to steer it towards I didn't mean to pull the trigger. Bollocks, the guy is lying through his teeth.

I still doubt his story about not knowing it was her because even if he did somehow fail to notice her getting up, instinctively the first thing to do on hearing what you think is an intruder is to wake the other person in the room and tell them what you think is going on. His story is so fishy that it smells like it's been in the cargo hold of a trawler for a week.
This is the way I see it. Pistorius was in self preservation mode, but almost certainly not from a home invader locked in his bathroom.
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Old 25th November 2017, 07:29 PM   #880
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Frankly the case needs analysis by someone who has time to properly trawl through the evidence. I discount the idea that all data points have ambiguous interpretations, which is what would be a necessary condition for a crime that leads to the present proclaimed uncertainty. Somewhere is a locking piece, the question can be resolved. I would certainly not bet my life that he believed it was an intruder, but it fits the evidence and common sense better.
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