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18th April 2006, 09:30 AM | #1361 |
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18th April 2006, 10:25 AM | #1362 |
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i really enjoy how all the CT'ers talk about how corrupt the government is and how evil the government is for planning and executing 9/11. yet, all the CT'ers still trust the gov. to inspect our meats and crops(usda) they still pay their taxes im sure, they still obey the laws. i mean, if everything is so corrupt how can you trust the government to be doing anything for you? i mean, if they planned 9/11 how do you know they arent slowly poisoning our water supply, or letting contaminated crops and meats ruin our farming industry which is already in shambles? How do you can you believe anything the government says or does?
These people think they got it bad from our government, they should go hang around darfur for a week or china or any of the other places on this earth where people are horribly oppressed/murdered for rights we take for granted. I'm not saying some things arent screwed up over here, but in perspective to other countries we got it pretty good, and although i dont agree at all with the current administration i know im not going to get the death penalty for expressing my freedom of speech. |
18th April 2006, 10:31 AM | #1363 |
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18th April 2006, 10:39 AM | #1364 |
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To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens. |
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18th April 2006, 10:48 AM | #1365 |
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You're right, Ramooone. Their behavior is totally inconsistent with their beliefs. I pointed this out to them a few times, but I never got a response.
After my encounter with them, the only hypothesis I have so far that makes sense is that deep down, they don't actually believe what they're saying. It's just a fun game. It's fantasy or roleplaying. G.I. Joe for adults. |
18th April 2006, 05:55 PM | #1366 |
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I've had similar conversations with CT folks and I've come to the same conclusion. If I honestly believed a tenth of what they say about the government were true, I'd take up arms. I sure as hell wouldn't be paying taxes or logging onto the internet to leave a record of who I was for that evil government to track me down when I exposed its nefarious deeds.
Ironically, however, I once had a conversation with a die hard CTer about social security that went like this: Him: The "government" is conspiring to take social security away from us. We can't let that happen, man! Me: Wait. You believe the government murdered 3,000 Americans but still trust it to run your retirement? Him: That's different. It's not the same people. Me: WTF?! |
18th April 2006, 09:50 PM | #1367 |
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I've been involved in a lot of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader.--Creed, "The Office" The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be only found in the minds of men. Prejudices and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own.--Rod Serling |
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18th April 2006, 10:01 PM | #1368 |
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It's technically a hypothesis in the technical sense... and maybe not even that (being that it doesn't account for most data available and the "researchers" don't seem to have any eye toward actually testing the thing. If I could choose a new noun phrase for everyone to use to describe this phenomina, it would be "conspiracy claim." That's much more precise.)
But since they're so far removed from science, I don't see any reason to be too careful about using "theory" in the casual sense of the word. |
18th April 2006, 10:09 PM | #1369 |
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I've been involved in a lot of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader.--Creed, "The Office" The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be only found in the minds of men. Prejudices and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own.--Rod Serling |
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19th April 2006, 11:28 AM | #1370 |
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Thanks.
I've just found out that one of my neighbors is hooked on the 9/11 ct's.
I've just been arguing with him for the past hour and a half about this, thank god I was using my laptop to use this thread (and others) to rebut his specific points. I didn't convince him of anything however, he claimed that what was important was his gut feeling, and as "no-one can ever know anything for certain" evidence was secondary. but thanks for a great resource. |
19th April 2006, 12:14 PM | #1371 |
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19th April 2006, 12:17 PM | #1372 |
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19th April 2006, 12:33 PM | #1373 |
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19th April 2006, 12:37 PM | #1374 |
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19th April 2006, 12:37 PM | #1375 |
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19th April 2006, 12:38 PM | #1376 |
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19th April 2006, 12:41 PM | #1377 |
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19th April 2006, 12:44 PM | #1378 |
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19th April 2006, 12:53 PM | #1379 |
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19th April 2006, 12:55 PM | #1380 |
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19th April 2006, 01:14 PM | #1381 |
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19th April 2006, 01:21 PM | #1382 |
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I admit I haven't read the entire thread but I do have questions of my own...
How was it possible that Osama Bin Laden was named the culprit within 7 hours of the attacks when the Bush Administration claimed they had no foreknowledge of the operation being planned? Do you think the FBI were given enough time to gather evidence to support that accusation let alone Osama denied he had any involvement of the plot? How was it possible for the amateur pilots to fly planes off course, turn off transponders and were be able to find their intended targets, let alone defeating the most technology advanced defense system in the world? The incompetence theory is laughable. The pentagon was struck by a boeing ONE HOUR after the first attack in New York City without any scramblings of Air Force fighter jets to protect the skies in Washington, DC. Where were they? Why was the collapsing of the WTC7, which fell in a free fall, controlled demolition style, not mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report? |
19th April 2006, 01:22 PM | #1383 |
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19th April 2006, 01:25 PM | #1384 |
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19th April 2006, 01:33 PM | #1385 |
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19th April 2006, 01:38 PM | #1386 |
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maybe they jumped to a conclusion, when first investigating a crime, it's not unusual for the police to look at who had "previous" relevant to the crime, OBL had attacked the WTC before, and in this case, the hunch played out, it happens.
The hard parts of flying a plane tend to be take off and landing, the 9/11 hijackers did neither. transponders help Air Traffic Control track planes, they do not help the plane navigate, prior to 9/11 information on the controls of commercial aircraft was not difficult to come by. The air defence system was not intended to be used against civilian aircraft, everyone expect the first planes (and passengers) to be held for ransom, not used as weapons. and how exactly would shooting down a plane over a highly populated area be a better outcome? And how long would it take for the fighter jets to intercept the planes, especially as the are barred from traveling supersonic whilst on intercept missions. The buildings fell nothing like a controlled demolition, if they fell "in free fall", how come we can clearly see the ejected debris falling faster than the buildings in the video footage? |
19th April 2006, 01:39 PM | #1387 |
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19th April 2006, 01:43 PM | #1388 |
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Geggy, I posted some helpful links in answer to 9/11 questions this morning. If you still have questions after checking these sources, come on back!
p.s. You are aware that the NIST WTC 7 report hasn't been released yet, right? It took a while because they were running an investigation. |
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19th April 2006, 01:43 PM | #1389 |
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I assumed that the second I heard of the attack. It is his MO, after all.
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Now that all your questions have been answered, I have no doubt that you will ignore all the answers and post the same questions repeatedly. I have a question for you - why is there not a single structural engineer in the entire country, and probably the world, who finds anything suspcious about the collapse of WTC 1,2 and 7? |
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19th April 2006, 01:46 PM | #1390 |
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The press were the ones that moved right to the accusation. The governemnt suspected, but did not actually state as fact, that OBL was behind the attacks. Al Queda also claimed responsibility for the attacks.
They attended pilot school, genius. Have you ever been to either of the two airports near DC? Have you even been in DC and just looked up? Why weren't the Oklahoma City bombings and the pizza I had last night included? |
19th April 2006, 01:54 PM | #1391 |
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ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Okay, quick story time. Long ago in a far away land, ok twenty years ago, my father used to own his own plane - a Piper Tripacer if anyone cares. Guess what, when we would go out for a flight, he would take care of the take off and landing. As for in flight, me a mere 12 year old, would do the flying many a time. He would give me a compass heading and I would follow that. Pretty simple really, and this in the days long before GPS. It was pretty easy to get to the destination airport and the turn the controls back over to dad. Guess what, 9/11 terrorists had plenty of training on how to fly a plane; very easy to do once you are off the ground. And with GPS, very easy to go to where you want to be. As for transponders, all they really do in broadcast a plane’s ID info. Watch CNN in the mornings, when the travel guy comes on, they always show a national map with all the planes currently in the air. Those plane locations are gathered from the transponders. Guess what, the map is solid blue plane silhouettes. I dare you to find a plane that is out of line on such a map, go ahead, try. |
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19th April 2006, 02:00 PM | #1392 |
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US intelligence had ample information showing Bin Laden's intent to attack in the United States. Remember Condie quoting that memo? Since it's been thrown in the administration's face countless times since then, I'm sure you're familiar with it. Something along the lines of "Bin Laden determined to attack within the United States."
Also, if you read the 9/11 commission report, you'll see all the intel the US had on the operations of Al-Qaeda in America prior to the attacks. Read this quote about the Phoenix Memo. "In July 2001, an FBI agent in the Phoenix field office sent a memo to FBI headquarters and to two agents on international terrorism squads in the New York Field Office, advising of the "possibility of a coordinated effort by Usama Bin Ladin" to send students to the United States to attend civil aviation schools." Is it odd that the FBI could, in seven hours, figure out that the attacks were connected to known terror cells inside the United States that were planning on using planes in a terrorist attack? I find it odd that you mention that the 9/11 Commission Report does not mention anything about WTC 7, yet you seem oblivious to the fact that the report DOES clearly lay out how much we knew about Osama's intentions to attack America using planes. This suggests to me that you have not read the 9/11 Report, but rather are just parrotting CT talking points that you've found somewhere out there on the net. |
19th April 2006, 02:05 PM | #1393 |
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For 15 years I never put anyone on ignore. I felt it important to see everyone's view point. Finally I realized the value of some views can be measured in negative terms and were personally destructive. |
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19th April 2006, 02:16 PM | #1394 |
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It can be hard to wade through all the CT stuff on the net to get to the facts. if you plopped a being from planet x in front of a a computer and had them google "9/11," that being would probably come to the conclusion that there's just about a consensus out there about what happened, and that consensus was in line with CT claims. Of course nothing could be farther from the truth. The CTers are simply vocal about their beliefs.
Geggy, since you're on the "Loose Change" thread, have you seen the video, and if so, what major conclusions do you agree with? It's always interesting to me to know where people are getting their information. |
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19th April 2006, 02:35 PM | #1395 |
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What is this--a conspiracy to keep the thread going by asking the same stupid questions over and over?
Well, if you had read the thread, rather than being stupidly lazy, you would find the answers to every D*^n one of your "questions", in at least 2 places. "Never argue with idiots! They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience...." or beat you down.... |
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"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275 |
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19th April 2006, 02:40 PM | #1396 |
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The list of top suspects wasn't very long. Bin Laden's determination to attack the US on its own soil was well-known, and the FBI had information suggesting that there were al-Qaeda operatives attending flight schools. They didn't know where, when, or how an attack might take place, but they were fairly certain almost immediately once the attack took place. Once they obtained at the flight manifests and confirmed that some of the passengers on every plane were known to have ties to al-Qaeda, the suspicion was confirmed.
NORAD didn't start monitoring flights inside US borders until after 9/11:
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The same reason the Marriott Hotel, which was completely obliterated by WTC 1 & 2, was not mentioned--it was collateral destruction, not a target of the attack. It was irrelevant to the scope of the report. |
19th April 2006, 02:56 PM | #1397 |
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19th April 2006, 02:59 PM | #1398 |
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19th April 2006, 03:01 PM | #1399 |
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19th April 2006, 03:04 PM | #1400 |
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Hell, *I* took pilot training. I stopped short of getting my private license, but I could probably hit something the size of a WTC tower in a commercial jet. These terrorists not only got their private licenses, but also got their instrument ratings, and their commercial pilots licenses, plus had lots of simulator time in commercial jets. The only way someone could have asked this question is willful ignorance.
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