ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Trump voters

Reply
Old 6th December 2017, 08:45 PM   #41
Jerrymander
Critical Thinker
 
Jerrymander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 261
Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lordy!

It just goes to show how much your side has been working against these people you speak about.
So is relying on the government good or bad?

Last edited by Jerrymander; 6th December 2017 at 08:47 PM.
Jerrymander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 02:00 AM   #42
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,082
Here we see an example of the debate tactic I described in another thread.

Conservative: "A stupid and/or completely erroneous argument".
Liberal: "Long explanation of why Conservative is wrong".
Conservative: "Snappy retort completely ignoring what Liberal said".

Result: Liberal feels he won the discussion. Conservative, by virtue of getting the last word and his posture and attitude shows the outward signs of winning. When the words have faded into faint memory, what remains is the idea of Conservative taking Liberal to task.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 02:25 AM   #43
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 23,218
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Here we see an example of the debate tactic I described in another thread.

Conservative: "A stupid and/or completely erroneous argument".
Liberal: "Long explanation of why Conservative is wrong".
Conservative: "Snappy retort completely ignoring what Liberal said".

Result: Liberal feels he won the discussion. Conservative, by virtue of getting the last word and his posture and attitude shows the outward signs of winning. When the words have faded into faint memory, what remains is the idea of Conservative taking Liberal to task.
^This

But what should the Liberal do instead ?
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 02:29 AM   #44
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,082
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
^This

But what should the Liberal do instead ?
Not engage. Disallow the attempt to control the conversation. Talk past the opponent.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 07:13 AM   #45
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 21,349
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Here we see an example of the debate tactic I described in another thread.

Conservative: "A stupid and/or completely erroneous argument".
Liberal: "Long explanation of why Conservative is wrong".
Conservative: "Snappy retort completely ignoring what Liberal said".

Result: Liberal feels he won the discussion. Conservative, by virtue of getting the last word and his posture and attitude shows the outward signs of winning. When the words have faded into faint memory, what remains is the idea of Conservative taking Liberal to task.
He "won" the discussion?

By the way, talk about posting that in the wrong thread! The premise set forth in the OP has been systematically dismantled post by long post, and you have literally posted nothing whatsoever to support your claim.

By the way? This was your first post in the thread and it absolutely ignores the entire op and the actual discussion in the thread.

Really something.
__________________
"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others".

Last edited by The Big Dog; 7th December 2017 at 07:16 AM.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 08:44 AM   #46
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,503
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Many people do not have entrepreneurial abilities/skills or desires for this. For these people there are no bootstraps to pull.
Well, that's not true. "Pulling bootstraps" is not about starting a business. That school custodian who works his way up to Director of Custodial Services has "pulled his bootstraps,' every bit as much as the guy who started a janitorial business.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 08:49 AM   #47
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,503
And let's expand that a bit. The coal miner (you can apply this to any worker displaced by a changing workplace) who is displaced has a couple of choices. He can whine and complain that the coal industry is drying up or he can pull himself up by the bootstraps and apply his experience in the coal industry to other industries. If you are looking for a flaw in the way some conservatives apply the "bootstrap" philosophy, that's where it is.

ETA: I'll give you a personal anecdote, so take it for what it's worth. My brother-in-law had a "career" in the drug running industry. He had never held a job in his life. His job was to arrange the transport of marijuana from the border to the rest of the US. He got caught, spent 3 years in Federal Prison and when he got out he had no experience in any field at all. But he was a good talker and a smart guy. He got a sales job for a billboard company. While he was there he made friends with one of his clients, an oil and gas service company. They needed someone to manage their fleet of service trucks. He is now the manager of that department. That is some bootstrap pulling.
__________________
Hello.

Last edited by xjx388; 7th December 2017 at 08:55 AM.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 09:47 AM   #48
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 44,106
Because jackboots don't have straps.
__________________
One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 10:03 AM   #49
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Somewhere between the central U.S. and Hades
Posts: 11,530
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because jackboots don't have straps.
Sadly, this fashion faux pas is correctible; simply Call Hellbound's Fashion Fascist Accessories (1-800-TYRANNY)! We have jackboots in all sizes, from your sturdy, workman-like hobnailed classics, to the simple elegance of smooth undecorated patent leather, or the extravagant and bold statement of numerous straps and buckles!

Also check our line of military uniforms, including extra braid and epaulets for the up-and-coming dictator!
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 10:22 AM   #50
Jerrymander
Critical Thinker
 
Jerrymander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 261
Here's an interview conservative Jesse Peterson did with civil rights activist Michelle Alexander. Skip to 13:39, very telling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYLd0POs-So
Jerrymander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 10:24 AM   #51
WilliamSeger
Master Poster
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,496
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Methinks some of you people are looking too hard for examples of racism.
What image springs to mind when you hear the term "welfare queen?"
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 11:51 AM   #52
lomiller
Philosopher
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,703
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
When one wants to "bring jobs back" that is a selfless, compassionate request that mean bringing lots of jobs back for lots of Americans.
at the expense of non-Americans who would do those jobs and Americans whose livelihood depends on selling goods and services to the non-Americans above. The net effect of protectionism is to eliminate high paying Jobs and replace them with low pay jobs “brought back” to the US.

This would tend to hurt most Americans but benefit people like Trump who can then make profits from cheep US labor, so it’s the opposite of “selfless” and “compassionate”.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 12:26 PM   #53
mgidm86
Illuminator
 
mgidm86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,931
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The idea that anybody anywhere can start a business from scratch is a myth.

I've been looking into starting a little home based business repairing musical instruments. I've discovered that if I do it will involve a bunch of licensing regulations I didn't even consider. If I want to refinish instruments I'll need to be both EPA and California licensed, inspected and in compliance with all federal and state regulations concerning not just the materials used but the disposal of all materials that have touched any of the chemicals-paints used in the process (which involves buying a approved disposal container w/disposal permit from the feds and state) and also will need to be inspected by both SFFD and the state Fire Marshall for my materials storage, which I also have to pay for - for maybe three or four 1 quart containers of materials at any one time. My soldering station will need to be inspected for compliance with fume dispersal requirements and etc etc etc.

That ended that part of the thought process. I now know why Fender moved their guitar finishing operation out of California to Arizona and Mexico.

Had I wanted to re-up my SOT nothing would surprise me and I know I'd never be able to do it in SF. That putting new pickups in a guitar required city and state inspections for a soldering iron did.

As much as I hate to admit it, Trump and the Republicans are correct in one area. The federal government and the individual states have endeavored to turn business licensing and regulation into profit centers, and the best way to do it is to pile more and more regulations and requirements that need to be inspected and approved of or denied (leading to more inspections and permit fees - the much loved "Variance" comes with a price tag) by the authorities - many times not even being remotely related to health or safety concerns but related to local concerns over whatever local issue du jour a local legislative body can come up with.
That's the problem - it's California. You picked perhaps the most difficult state in the nation to launch a business.

It feels like communism or socialism sometimes. You can't store that there, put it here. That door is too tall. You need a $10k wheel chair elevator even though there is nothing in this room and the door won't fit a wheel chair through it. Just do it.

They tell us we have to keep our ID badges at work rather than wear them home. Don't pour water out here. You can't wear short pants. No alcohol allowed on the premises, at all. Not even for an after work party.

We have OSHA here every few weeks, as well as the city and others. It's insane and extremely expensive. Some of it is legit and for safety. Much of it is not, or is applied with a broad brush rather than saying "Hey this isn't necessary in this particular business."

California used to be a beautiful place to live. It still looks nice, but it ain't worth the expense. I stay for my family, but maybe not for long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot
Methinks some of you people are looking too hard for examples of racism.
Quote:
WilliamSeger
What image springs to mind when you hear the term "welfare queen?"
I think of a fat white chick living in a trailer park. You think of a black woman. I guess we are both prejudice.

Last edited by mgidm86; 7th December 2017 at 12:27 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2017, 12:09 AM   #54
WilliamSeger
Master Poster
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,496
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I think of a fat white chick living in a trailer park. You think of a black woman. I guess we are both prejudice.
Really? You assumed Reagan was talking about a "fat white chick living in a trailer park" when he said, "In Chicago, they found the woman who holds the record?" Do you imagine he was really talking about a trailer park when he talked about a "fancy public housing project" with a gymnasium and a swimming pool? How about when he talked about "strapping young bucks" who use food stamps to buy T-bone steaks?

(These are rhetorical questions, by the way; I have no actual interest in your disingenuous prattle.)
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2017, 01:12 AM   #55
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23,137
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The idea that anybody anywhere can start a business from scratch is a myth.

I've been looking into starting a little home based business repairing musical instruments. I've discovered that if I do it will involve a bunch of licensing regulations I didn't even consider. If I want to refinish instruments I'll need to be both EPA and California licensed, inspected and in compliance with all federal and state regulations concerning not just the materials used but the disposal of all materials that have touched any of the chemicals-paints used in the process (which involves buying a approved disposal container w/disposal permit from the feds and state) and also will need to be inspected by both SFFD and the state Fire Marshall for my materials storage, which I also have to pay for - for maybe three or four 1 quart containers of materials at any one time. My soldering station will need to be inspected for compliance with fume dispersal requirements and etc etc etc.

That ended that part of the thought process. I now know why Fender moved their guitar finishing operation out of California to Arizona and Mexico.

Had I wanted to re-up my SOT nothing would surprise me and I know I'd never be able to do it in SF. That putting new pickups in a guitar required city and state inspections for a soldering iron did.

As much as I hate to admit it, Trump and the Republicans are correct in one area. The federal government and the individual states have endeavored to turn business licensing and regulation into profit centers, and the best way to do it is to pile more and more regulations and requirements that need to be inspected and approved of or denied (leading to more inspections and permit fees - the much loved "Variance" comes with a price tag) by the authorities - many times not even being remotely related to health or safety concerns but related to local concerns over whatever local issue du jour a local legislative body can come up with.
And yet California has all sorts of new businesses and Trumpland has zilch.
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:58 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.