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21st January 2018, 09:25 PM | #1 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,927
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A bill in WA to restrict lead ammo.
Every now and then a bill appears that bans or restricts lead ammunition. The lead styphnate used in primers is one of the primary sources of airborne lead that ends up in a shooter's bloodstream and organs. The lead plating out on barrels from cast bullets is another source. Children are most sensitive to lead contamination so protecting them from lead is a very valid issue.
http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/bienni...Bills/2805.pdf
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Ranb |
21st January 2018, 09:29 PM | #2 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,386
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It also kills raptors that feed on small animals contaminated with lead shot.
What is your point exactly? |
21st January 2018, 09:43 PM | #3 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
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Correct. But this bill does nothing to address lead contamination that affects raptors or small animals. But you knew that since you read the bill that I linked to, correct?
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I think you're trying to pick a fight where there isn't one. |
21st January 2018, 09:55 PM | #4 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,386
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Not trying to pick any fight, heaven knows we have enough of those in the forum.
I didn't read the bill because your post was so vague, and I still don't get your point. Are you asserting the bill requires a 21 yr old to have his/her parents sign for ammo purchases? You must know that doesn't make a lick of sense. |
21st January 2018, 10:04 PM | #5 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
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This is irony yes?
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But you're correct, it really makes no sense at all. |
21st January 2018, 10:10 PM | #6 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,386
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OMG, those poor 18-20 yr olds.
Sorry, the reason I didn't get it is because I can't believe you are making a fuss about a restrictions on people under 21 buying lead ammo. Seriously dude, why do you care? |
21st January 2018, 10:20 PM | #7 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
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Because the statute as written doesn't protect the environment as much as it restricts access to commonly used ammunition for target shooting.
California already had restrictions on using lead rounds for hunting, but that has already led to suggestions in certain political quarters that if it can be banned for hunting it should be banned across the board. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ition/2969497/ |
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21st January 2018, 10:41 PM | #8 | ||
Penultimate Amazing
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Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,927
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One of my activities is precision small bore and air rifle shooting/coaching. This bill would restrict handling of the match grade 22lr cartridges and air rifle pellets that are used by children and adults.
If this bill passes it would be a crime for me to simply hand a tin of pellets to a child to practice with. No one benefits from this at all. <snip>
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22nd January 2018, 05:13 AM | #9 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
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I understand that this applies to leaded ammo only, or am I mistaken? Ammo that exposes the shooter to lead fumes which are known to be detrimental to health, particularly that of children.
So clearly children previously given lead ammo bx irresponsible adults benefit. Adults also benefit, including the semi-adults 18-20 yo. Those are treated as immature in plenty of laws, e.g. refering to alcohol. I don't get what your problem is. Recreational shooting surely can be done with lead-free ammo. Everybody benefits, except producers of lead. |
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22nd January 2018, 07:27 AM | #10 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Correct.
Also correct. But not all users of lead ammo are irresponsible. The problem is that there are ways of minimizing the effects of lead ammo other than restricting it. Then surely you can show me lead free substitutes for match grade 22lr and 17 cal pellets that actually perform well or at least not poorly? If there were, then shooters would be using them now. |
22nd January 2018, 10:22 AM | #11 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
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I'm familiar with the science.
I was required by our agency to undergo regular testing for lead exposure. The lead levels in my system are well within the normal range and I've got a long history of shooting and as a kid did a hell of a lot of lead casting manufacturing .38 special 148 grain wadcutter bullets for target shooting. There is a wealth of evidence that ingestion of lead is a serious problem for any living thing. I'm less convinced that shooters themselves face much risk from simply firing lead bullets, even those who are shooting on indoor ranges. |
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22nd January 2018, 01:46 PM | #12 |
Penultimate Amazing
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22nd January 2018, 01:53 PM | #13 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Lead free airgun pellets have been popular for at least a decade, though.
There are literally hundreds of choices in lead free airgun pellets. Lead free .22 rimfire ammo has been around for a long time as well. I would not have any problem at all if I decided to go non-lead for my airguns and rimfire firearms. |
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22nd January 2018, 02:30 PM | #14 |
Penultimate Amazing
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22nd January 2018, 02:46 PM | #15 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I know there are lead-free pellets on the market. But I was referring to pellets that will put ten shots into a 5 millimeter hole at ten meters. The best I can say about any non-lead 17 caliber pellets is that they perform poorly.
Well, I would. If I sent my team to matches with lead-free pellets and 22lr cartridges they might be denied the chance to shoot as some ranges have velocity limits that the lighter lead-free projectiles might exceed. If they competed at an outdoor or other range which did not limit velocities they would not really stand a chance against the competitors who used the much higher quality match grade ammunition made from lead and coated with wax or oil. |
22nd January 2018, 04:28 PM | #16 |
Penultimate Amazing
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22nd January 2018, 04:43 PM | #17 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I don't think this law will help anyone at all. A person has to be 18 to buy rifle ammo of any kind, 21 for pistol ammo. Young adults will have to get a parent to buy good quality rifle ammo for them if this bill passes.
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22nd January 2018, 04:43 PM | #18 |
Philosopher
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It's obviously about the guns and not the lead.
If a state wants to protect children from lead poisoning this is a laughably lame attempt at it. I mean come on, just how widespread is lead poisoning from bullets? Being shot by them - yes. What a joke. This is yet another ineffectual gun law that will please some constituents and save zero lives. Typical west coast "thinking". And I'm actually sick of the whole gun thing (including my own gun) and would love to see them all magically disappear. A stupid law is a stupid law. |
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Why bother? |
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22nd January 2018, 04:55 PM | #19 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I have read news stories about children in shooting programs who had elevated blood lead levels. As far as I know it is related to indoor shooting without proper ventilation and probably not washing up prior to eating or drinking.
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22nd January 2018, 05:00 PM | #20 |
I would save the receptionist.
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That's the impression I get. As a dedicated opponent of gun violence, I almost have no problem with this. But then I think of anti-choice advocates and all of their regulations that are nominally about "health" but are really about restricting women's freedom. I would rather win the anti-gun debate on its merits instead of like this. |
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22nd January 2018, 05:03 PM | #21 |
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That's why every political argument is so bloody pointless. Nearly everything is a proxy battle for something else or a hill someone will die to defend for no reason other than it will tick "the other side" off.
How many actual open, honest debates that are actually completely and totally about what they are about are actually going on in the public discourse at this point? |
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22nd January 2018, 06:34 PM | #22 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I wrote to the five co-sponsors yesterday for details on their reasons why they're going after the ammo instead of the environment they're used in; I doubt I'll be getting a reply.
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22nd January 2018, 07:14 PM | #23 |
Michael McDonald 1967 - 2021
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Posts: 4,947
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Crazy, truly crazy. Complain about 'lead in the air' as dangerous for kids and young adults while shooting. But do nothing about the 'lead in the air' coming out of the other end of the gun.
Only in America! |
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22nd January 2018, 07:35 PM | #24 |
Penultimate Amazing
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As someone who believes that the government has no business sticking their nose into what goes on between a doctor and their patient, I'm concerned that if the individual states are successful in subverting existing case law and federal statutes the unintended consequence could well be that a municipality or state could ban abortion and be successful in doing it.
If someone endorses the notion of Sanctuary Cities that protect convicted criminals from ICE, legalized pot and gun control statutes that do infringe on the 2nd, they should not be surprised when some other happy municipality figures out how to ban abortion or restrict voting rights and they are successful in doing so. |
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23rd January 2018, 05:26 AM | #25 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
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23rd January 2018, 05:52 AM | #26 |
Penultimate Amazing
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23rd January 2018, 05:57 AM | #27 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Why is it "obviously about the guns" when it's likely to have pretty much zero effect on them?
Kids below 18 need their parents or guardians permission to be handling and firing guns anyways, so no changes there. 18-20 years olds can buy non-lead rifle ammo themselves, it get their parents to buy them lead ammo so a minor change there. Anyone over 21 isn't effected, other than being aware of not supplying lead ammo to under 21's without parental consent. Seems like a storm in a teacup over a law that would do little more than push a few 18-20 year olds into using non-lead ammo and make parents consider the harm that lead particles from their ammo might be doing to their kids. |
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23rd January 2018, 06:53 AM | #28 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The standard for air rifle is currently the 45 millimeter target with the 0.5mm bullseye. Lead pellets will go away or at least greatly decrease in popularity if ordered so by the ISSF. Until then a society that is willing to risk the lives of children in cars and on football fields is not going to see lead pellets and ammo as a serious risk.
As long as good lead pellets are four times cheaper and ten times more accurate than the non-lead counterparts, I doubt that any precision shooter ages 18-20 will allow themselves to be affected by the law. If their parents can't be bothered to buy the pellets for them, their fellow shooters will. |
23rd January 2018, 06:59 AM | #29 |
Penultimate Amazing
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It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) |
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23rd January 2018, 09:21 AM | #30 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Location: WA USA
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So what is the actual risk associated with the use of pure lead pellets? Since there is no flame or lead based primer, unless a person licks the steel pellet trap or cleans a barrel with lead acetate I think the risk is nil. Fixed cartridges remain a potential hazard though.
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