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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 19th November 2020, 05:15 AM   #3041
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Yeah, seems to me the parentage listed on the birth certificate has long been one of the things that’s more about a social role and often not about a biological reality. Factors like “genetic testing isn’t done” and “fertility donors aren’t listed” means the birth certificate has always been more of ‘a lead to follow up when trying to discover,’ than ‘a document of,’ genetic parentage for the kid on it.

But we do need a strong public understanding that you need to be bringing genetic facts with you when you rock up at the genetic disease test doctors.
I’ve started a discussion about birth certificates in general in this thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=348019
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Old 24th November 2020, 01:05 AM   #3042
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Finland's PM makes a statement: "Everyone has the right to determine their own gender identity."

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-55020994
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Old 24th November 2020, 09:18 AM   #3043
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That may be one of the least informative articles I've read with respect to actual issues. Good info about Finland's PM & Coalition though.
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Old 24th November 2020, 09:28 AM   #3044
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Finland's PM makes a statement: "Everyone has the right to determine their own gender identity."

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-55020994
One wonders how far the PM imagines this right extends. Will they boycott the Olympic Games if they're not allowed to enter transwomen in the women's events?
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Old 24th November 2020, 03:55 PM   #3045
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That may be one of the least informative articles I've read with respect to actual issues. Good info about Finland's PM & Coalition though.
It's not easy to write a one-page article about a self-explanatory ten-word sentence.
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Old 24th November 2020, 04:18 PM   #3046
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It's not easy to write a one-page article about a self-explanatory ten-word sentence.
I'm not sure how self-explanatory that sentence really is. Especially when uttered by a politician. Empty platitudes are easy to say, but do they actually explain anything? What do these ten words mean for Finnish public policy?

Those ten words don't explain anything about:
- gender identity and medical services
- gender identity and sports qualifications
- gender identity and sex work*
- gender identity and social perception

Really, those ten words are just a special case of "everybody has the right to think about themselves however they want". Which is entirely true, but also doesn't explain sod all about whether one's rightful self-perception has any bearing on how the state or anyone else perceives you.

I could probably write at least one-page article about all the things those ten words probably need explanations about, but which are not provided in those ten words.

Last edited by theprestige; 24th November 2020 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 24th November 2020, 09:14 PM   #3047
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What do these ten words mean for Finnish public policy?
Nothing.
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Old 25th November 2020, 08:49 AM   #3048
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nothing.
Then there's nothing self-explanatory about that ten word sentence in this context. A good reporter would have written at least a one page article asking why Finnish politicians are mouthing empty platitudes instead of offering real policy.
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Old 25th November 2020, 11:17 AM   #3049
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Then there's nothing self-explanatory about that ten word sentence in this context.
Stop looking for things that don't exist.

She made a comment which is entirely self-explanatory. Let me repeat it:

"Everyone has the right to determine their own gender identity."

It's not policy, it's not in Parliament, it's a personal opinion. The only reason it was reported was because she's the PM. Whether she decides to act upon her opinion is a matter for conjecture, but right now, that's all there is.
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Old 25th November 2020, 01:02 PM   #3050
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Stop looking for things that don't exist.
You said an explanation existed. I went looking for it based on your report. Now you're saying the explanation doesn't exist, and that I shouldn't have been looking for it.

Make up your mind.
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Old 25th November 2020, 02:30 PM   #3051
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I guess that at least the more enlightened of us should be grateful that the world's actual experts in the matter, together with many progressive national legislatures, understand that there's a distinction between sex and gender, and that gender dysphoria is a real, lived condition which requires recognition and protection.

And I'd have thought that critical thinkers would - if for nothing else but the DSM4 classification - be of the same mindset. How wrong I turned out to be
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Old 25th November 2020, 02:55 PM   #3052
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I guess that at least the more enlightened of us should be grateful that the world's actual experts in the matter, together with many progressive national legislatures, understand that there's a distinction between sex and gender, and that gender dysphoria is a real, lived condition which requires recognition and protection.

And I'd have thought that critical thinkers would - if for nothing else but the DSM4 classification - be of the same mindset. How wrong I turned out to be
Let's break this down, shall we?

Distinction between sex and gender? Yes. Sex is a verifiable thing which everyone understands. Gender is a bit harder to pin down in some of the edge cases, but for most people, including most transgenders, we get what it is, and there's no real dispute about it. So, critical thinkers agree.

Gender dysphoria is a real, lived, condition? There is absolutely zero claims otherwise in these threads. Critical thinkers agree.

Gender dysphoria requires recognition? So far so good. Critical thinkers agree.

Gender dysphoria requires protection? I'm not sure what "protect gender dysphoria" means, but everyone here opposes any rule or law that would make it illegal or punish gender dysphoria. Critical thinkers agree.

So, all the critical thinkers here agree with you on every count. You weren't wrong.

Unless, of course, you also expected critical thinkers to go along with different, unstated, assumptions. Unless you mean that "recognized" and "protected" mean something other than their literal meanings.
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Old 25th November 2020, 03:02 PM   #3053
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It may be a disagreement on what protections and rights they are demanding.

More a large population density issue than a general issue.
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Old 25th November 2020, 06:40 PM   #3054
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Meanwhile, John Cleese has been savaged for defending JK Rowling and sending out a Tweet the ............... didn't like.

https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-kno...in-trans-folks

Clearly, things like democracy, corruption, police brutality and other international problems are less important that allowing people to choose their gender.
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Old 25th November 2020, 07:11 PM   #3055
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"I just hope they're happy and that people treat them kindly."

What a ****.
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Old 25th November 2020, 07:57 PM   #3056
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Seriously, an 80-year old man says

"I'm afraid I'm not that interested in trans folks
I just hope they're happy and that people treat them kindly"

and this has people's knickers in a twist?
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Old 25th November 2020, 08:04 PM   #3057
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
"I just hope they're happy and that people treat them kindly."

What a ****.
Right! What kind of **** wit wants people to be happy and others to treat them well? It isn't just a flesh wound I suppose.
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Old 25th November 2020, 10:45 PM   #3058
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
It may be a disagreement on what protections and rights they are demanding.

More a large population density issue than a general issue.
Well of course it is, but that's where all the fuss is, and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

LondonJohn knows, or at least should know, that all of us here recognize all the things that he said that we don't recognize. We just don't go as far.

Certainly within broader society there are people who reject everything he said, but no one here does. Here, it's all about how far rights and protections extend.
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Old 25th November 2020, 10:55 PM   #3059
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Well of course it is, but that's where all the fuss is, and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

LondonJohn knows, or at least should know, that all of us here recognize all the things that he said that we don't recognize. We just don't go as far.

Certainly within broader society there are people who reject everything he said, but no one here does. Here, it's all about how far rights and protections extend.
I'd just like to emphasize my agreement with this.
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Old 26th November 2020, 12:11 PM   #3060
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Right! What kind of **** wit wants people to be happy and others to treat them well? It isn't just a flesh wound I suppose.
I'm pretty sure MB was taking the piss.
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Old 26th November 2020, 01:21 PM   #3061
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I thought we all were!
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Old 26th November 2020, 06:51 PM   #3062
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Finland's PM makes a statement: "Everyone has the right to determine their own gender identity."

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-55020994
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That may be one of the least informative articles I've read with respect to actual issues. Good info about Finland's PM & Coalition though.
Quote:
There are also plans to reform the Trans Act, a law that currently requires those seeking legal gender recognition to undergo years of mental health screening and, unless they are already infertile, enforced sterilisation.

"Everyone should have the right to determine their own identities. And the programme supports this," Sanna Marin says.

Does she consider trans women, women?

"It's not my job to identify people," she says firmly. "It's everyone's job to identify themselves. It's not my place to say."

She may be the only government leader to have openly stated such a position on gender self-identification.
The enforced sterilisation sounds almost like a human rights violation to me.

I mean, if it was anyone other than trans people, I think people would be horrified by talk of "enforced sterilisation". Why is that necessary? As a deterrent? Of course, it also means that there's no path back for anyone who might later come to regret the decision. Although, cross-sex hormone treatment may lead to infertility anyway, but that's a voluntary risk that those people take rather than a government mandate.

Yes, the law needs to be reformed. At least that part of it.
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Old 26th November 2020, 07:21 PM   #3063
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
The enforced sterilisation sounds almost like a human rights violation to me.
I'm guessing that "enforced sterilization" is a side-effect of hormonal treatments to transition. The point isn't the sterilization, but there is a requirement for medical transition rather than social transition before it's recognized.

I would say I probably don't agree with that requirement, but framing it as enforced sterilization seems dishonest to me (not on your part, to be clear).

ETA: I should also add that this is just a guess on my part, trying to make sense of something that doesn't seem to make sense. If the requirement really is for sterilization for the sake of sterilization, that seems crazy to me, and should definitely be changed.
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Last edited by Roboramma; 26th November 2020 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 27th November 2020, 03:11 AM   #3064
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm guessing that "enforced sterilization" is a side-effect of hormonal treatments to transition. The point isn't the sterilization, but there is a requirement for medical transition rather than social transition before it's recognized.

I would say I probably don't agree with that requirement, but framing it as enforced sterilization seems dishonest to me (not on your part, to be clear).

ETA: I should also add that this is just a guess on my part, trying to make sense of something that doesn't seem to make sense. If the requirement really is for sterilization for the sake of sterilization, that seems crazy to me, and should definitely be changed.
Uhhh, infertility may be a side-effect of cross-hormone therapy, but I wouldn't call that "enforced sterilization" by any means.

Looking for more information. . .

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/finland-m...t-trans-rights

Quote:
The 'Trans Act'

Currently, the Act on Legal Recognition of the Gender of Transsexuals (or the 'Trans Act') states that an individual's sex assigned at birth can be changed only be legally changed if:

the applicant presents a medical statement certifying she/he wishes to belong permanently to the opposite gender;
they live in that gender role;
and they have been sterilized or is ‘for some other reason infertile’.

The personal identity code assigned to Finnish citizens at birth indicates the sex assigned at birth – the last digit is always even for females and odd for males. All personal documents, including passport and identity cards and even library cards, are issued on the basis of this information. The code is required to apply for benefits (such as pensions) and for payment of salaries.

It is extremely important for transgender people that the code corresponds to their chosen gender identity and that they are not forced to ‘out’ themselves as transgender every time they are required to reveal their personal identity code.

The act also restricts the possibility to access legal gender recognition to individuals who have reached the legal age of maturity, which in Finland is 18. The whole process can take more than three years.

As of 2017, twenty European countries have a requirement that transgender people be sterilised prior to changing their legal gender. Two other Nordic countries, Denmark and Sweden, had similar conditions for gender recognition, but these have been dropped in recent years.

The Finnish Government has run out of excuses: it’s time to update the backward 'Trans Act' and ensure that trans people’s human rights are respected.
Unless they are really being disingenuous here, I think that means what it says. If they meant some kind of medical procedure or treatment other than sterilization, I think they should clarify.

Apparently also in Finland, the "personal identity code" reveals their sex at birth (or assigned gender at birth if you prefer).
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Old 27th November 2020, 04:05 AM   #3065
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You want to let them have their cake and eat it, basically.
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Old 27th November 2020, 04:14 AM   #3066
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What does that mean? Why not?

Doesn't affect me either way. I just don't want to be asked to pay for it.

I think it should be elective treatment to be paid for by the individual who desires it, not something provided by taxpayers.
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Old 27th November 2020, 07:15 AM   #3067
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If someone has the all consuming need to be what they aren't they will make it happen. If not possible where they are, there are other places with subcultures to assist with every detail.

Rural Bible belt Mexico doesn't like trans, barely tolerates homosexual. México City has entire areas with those subcultures in big numbers.

If Juan needs to be Juanita to avoid suicide by all means get out of the bible belt and get to Mex City.

He certainly isn't going to change any minds back home despite superficial support.
It goes both ways, if one must escape the immoral decadence of the big city go into the bible belt as deep as you need to to find happiness.
I met someone that did that recently.

Don't put it on society to universally love every abberation of normal no matter how weird it is in that place.
It won't happen because people don't like weird. Even the most tolerant folks have arbitrary limits where something crossed the line and is just wrong.
Laws can prevent others doing damages to the odd, but not make anyone accept them.
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Old 27th November 2020, 11:00 AM   #3068
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I think it should be elective treatment to be paid for by the individual who desires it, not something provided by taxpayers.
NZ allows a very small number of trans to undergo government-funded gender reassignment surgery each year.

It's a consequence of having free medical care for all - you have the whole pile of money and allocate a jillionth of a percent of it to GRS, just as you allocate money to other non-threatening but funded surgeries. There's just a very long waiting list. (well over 10 years for GRS right now)
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Also in NZ, rugby is having a moment of reckoning with transgender players.

Thankfully, it's not an issue at the professional level because World Rugby banned transgender players only a month ago, so NZ Rugby is looking at the amateur game to see if and how transgender players should play the game.

It may not seem like much of an issue, being strictly the bottom tiers of the game, but when rugby is a country's religion, people will treat any rugby competition as fiercely as a test match. There's no doubt in my mind that there would be male players who would self-identify as female for less than genuine reasons. Also, being a strength sport, having 20 years as a bloke under your uniform is going to give you a huge advantage.
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Old 27th November 2020, 10:10 PM   #3069
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You want to let them have their cake and eat it, basically.
Honestly my view of what trans means is probably pretty different from what trans people think of it themselves. To some extent it's certainly possible to "live as" a women if you're biologically male, if that means taking on the gender roles of women. I can see how undergoing hormonal therapy and possibly surgery can make one's biology seem to line up more with the assumed gender.

I don't see any reason why infertility is necessary to that, though I can see that if a trans man became pregnant it could interfere with their new gender identity.

Biologically, men are men, and women are women, and we don't have the technology to change that reality. Sterilization won't do it, so I don't see why it's made a mandatory part of the process.

But I also don't see why society is somehow obligated to view a trans woman as a woman at all, sterile or not.
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Old 27th November 2020, 10:43 PM   #3070
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I don't see any reason why infertility is necessary to that, though I can see that if a trans man became pregnant it could interfere with their new gender identity.
I heard a trans-man telling his story on a PBS story hour show describing his decision to get pregnant, and how he had to either stop taking hormones or change them or something, and describing how weird it was to have "his" body revert to feminine characteristics, and then get pregnant and....

Well, I don't remember the details and I still am pretty sure that if you are pregnant, you're a woman, but ....pronouns whatever.....the point is....

The trans man, while living as a man, was infertile, but the infertility was a temporary effect of hormones he was taking, and "he" was able to revert to a sufficiently female physiology and body chemistry to become pregnant, and he said it did indeed interfere with his gender identity, but he continued to identify as a male throughout the experience.


And take that for whatever a guy on the internet quoting a story he heard on PBS is worth.
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Old 28th November 2020, 02:10 AM   #3071
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I heard a trans-man telling his story on a PBS story hour show describing his decision to get pregnant, and how he had to either stop taking hormones or change them or something, and describing how weird it was to have "his" body revert to feminine characteristics, and then get pregnant and....
I'll raise you the trans man who carried a baby after being inseminated by a trans woman!

https://news.sky.com/story/trans-man...donor-11897122

Water completely muddied.

Someone made a comment not far back about having one's cake and eating it too. Voila!
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Old 28th November 2020, 05:24 AM   #3072
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Looking for more information. . .

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/finland-m...t-trans-rights

Also from Amnesty (in response to criticism of their recent behaviour towards LGB Ireland) :

"There is no such thing as a male/female body. A person's genitalia doesn't determine their gender."
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Old 28th November 2020, 06:30 AM   #3073
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
"There is no such thing as a male/female body. A person's genitalia doesn't determine their gender."
Whom are you quoting here? I'm not seeing this in the Amnesty page.
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Old 28th November 2020, 10:19 AM   #3074
JihadJane
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Whom are you quoting here? I'm not seeing this in the Amnesty page.
Allegedly, it was sent by Charlie from the Community Supporters Team, reproduced here. However Mr Linehan has lost the link and is asking the person who sent it to him to send it again!
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Old 28th November 2020, 10:44 AM   #3075
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I'm petitioning my local sports centre to have a gay guy banned from the men's changing rooms. He told me once in casual conversation that he was an active gay man, and I know I've seen him looking in the direction of some of the men - and even boys! - as they were undressing. I think it's unacceptable that hetero men should have to put up with a gay man being in their presence as they undress (and probably getting some level of sexual arousal while doing so). And who knows: maybe on a quiet afternoon, he might be sharing the changing room with just one young adolescent. This guy is very well-built, and I have no doubt that if he so wanted, he could physically restrain the adolescent and commit some sort of sexual assault. I'm sure the sports centre management will find my argument sane and convincing (but I'll damn well be taking things all the way to the Supreme Court if they're stupid enough to refuse my request).
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Old 28th November 2020, 11:51 AM   #3076
JihadJane
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I'm petitioning my local sports centre to have a gay guy banned from the men's changing rooms. He told me once in casual conversation that he was an active gay man, and I know I've seen him looking in the direction of some of the men - and even boys! - as they were undressing. I think it's unacceptable that hetero men should have to put up with a gay man being in their presence as they undress (and probably getting some level of sexual arousal while doing so). And who knows: maybe on a quiet afternoon, he might be sharing the changing room with just one young adolescent. This guy is very well-built, and I have no doubt that if he so wanted, he could physically restrain the adolescent and commit some sort of sexual assault. I'm sure the sports centre management will find my argument sane and convincing (but I'll damn well be taking things all the way to the Supreme Court if they're stupid enough to refuse my request).
Keeping men out of women's spaces has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It is about the known risk that men pose to women and about women's right to dignity and privacy.
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Last edited by JihadJane; 28th November 2020 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 28th November 2020, 12:05 PM   #3077
theprestige
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I'm petitioning my local sports centre to have a gay guy banned from the men's changing rooms. He told me once in casual conversation that he was an active gay man, and I know I've seen him looking in the direction of some of the men - and even boys! - as they were undressing. I think it's unacceptable that hetero men should have to put up with a gay man being in their presence as they undress (and probably getting some level of sexual arousal while doing so). And who knows: maybe on a quiet afternoon, he might be sharing the changing room with just one young adolescent. This guy is very well-built, and I have no doubt that if he so wanted, he could physically restrain the adolescent and commit some sort of sexual assault. I'm sure the sports centre management will find my argument sane and convincing (but I'll damn well be taking things all the way to the Supreme Court if they're stupid enough to refuse my request).
Cool story, bro.
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Old 28th November 2020, 12:09 PM   #3078
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I'm petitioning my local sports centre to have a gay guy banned from the men's changing rooms.
You're lying.

Oh, ok. I know you are trying to just make a point, but it's the wrong point. It's just a straw man. You are arguing against a point that you think someone is making, but no one is.
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Old 28th November 2020, 12:44 PM   #3079
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Meanwhile, in the real world - another young woman whose sporting aspirations are being crushed by blokes who can't beat blokes, so have suddenly decided they're women.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 28th November 2020, 02:15 PM   #3080
cullennz
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Meanwhile, in the real world - another young woman whose sporting aspirations are being crushed by blokes who can't beat blokes, so have suddenly decided they're women.



YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Quite a good video.

Brave chick to do it these days.

Forgive me my atrocious spelling from my wee phone keyboard.
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