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Tags 2016 elections , 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , donald trump , hillary clinton , presidential candidates

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Old 17th February 2017, 11:49 AM   #41
MrFliop
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What's wrong with stepping out of party lines?
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Old 17th February 2017, 11:50 AM   #42
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I don't regret not voting for either.
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Old 17th February 2017, 11:52 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
What's wrong with stepping out of party lines?
Nothing. Who said there was anything wrong with it?
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Old 17th February 2017, 11:53 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
I have met Mr. Trump. He is no fool.
I've heard this from more than one person, but I just don't buy it. There's no way a sensible, intelligent human being gets up in the morning, puts on a pair of pants and then turns into this buffoon.
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Old 17th February 2017, 11:55 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
That pretty much depends on how you define "right guy". My checklist includes [ x ] Less likely to get lots of people killed. In fact, that's my over-riding priority.
#ThatsHowYouGetNevilleChamberlain

Sometimes going with the guy who will get less people killed is what ends up getting more people killed.
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Old 17th February 2017, 11:56 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Varanid View Post
I've heard this from more than one person, but I just don't buy it. There's no way a sensible, intelligent human being gets up in the morning, puts on a pair of pants and then turns into this buffoon.
Someone said about Trump, "You like him until you get to know him."
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Old 17th February 2017, 12:09 PM   #47
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I'm going to turn this around. I didn't vote for Trump but I might be willing to change my views if in four years we have:
  • 99% of Americans have affordable health care options
  • Middle class and poor have job opportunities and real incomes are increasing
  • We have clean waters and clean air and half of Florida is not under water
  • We are not embroiled in any major war and we have friendly relations with the world
  • Progress on reducing the national debt
  • We can be confident the government is working for us not for an elite few who influence politicians.

I don't have high hopes.
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Old 17th February 2017, 12:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
What's wrong with stepping out of party lines?
Indeed, but if you voted for the Republican nominee, you certainly did not.

Lamb's essay on roast pig was not meant to be a recipe.
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Old 17th February 2017, 12:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Also.

If the Democratic Party runs any candidate in the 2020 election which is already a well known member of the party they will lose and they deserve it.

The Democrats need a fresh face. The concept of "The establishment" is what lost them this one.
There are some good candidates out there. I like Jason Kander (MO) as a potential candidate. Came close to unseating Roy Blunt in a deep Red state. Probably would have in an honest election.

I think that the OP is severely underestimating just how much damage might be done in the next few years that might be irreversible. Consider Social Security and Medicare. If the Repukes get their way and fully privatize or even end those programs, then give away the Trust Funds in tax cuts, those funds took almost 80 years to accumulate. Even if we did manage to also retake Congress by then, that it would still take decades to restore them to what they were, and the elderly/disabled don't have that kind of time.
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Old 17th February 2017, 12:54 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You put a traitor to his country in the White House for your own entertainment?
This. The qualities that are great for reality TV don't make for a good presidency of the US.
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Old 17th February 2017, 01:00 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by seayakin View Post
I'm going to turn this around. I didn't vote for Trump but I might be willing to change my views if in four years we have:
  • 99% of Americans have affordable health care options

That's just over three million people without affordable healthcare.
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Old 17th February 2017, 01:05 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
The best thing that I have seen regarding Trump becoming the President is the comedy gold mine it has been for people like Alec Baldwin, Stephen Colbert, Samantha Bee, and just about anyone else into political comedy.
It's all fun and games, until someone gets polonium/dioxine poisoning...
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Old 17th February 2017, 01:12 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Varanid View Post
I've heard this from more than one person, but I just don't buy it. There's no way a sensible, intelligent human being gets up in the morning, puts on a pair of pants and then turns into this buffoon.
And yet he got elected into the most powerful position in the world against someone who was supposed to be a shoe-in...

\_(ツ)_/
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Old 17th February 2017, 01:13 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That's just over three million people without affordable healthcare.
If its the $3 million wealthiest people in America, I can live with that.
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Old 17th February 2017, 01:20 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
There's a lot of political arguments or desires out there that, when you get right down to it, boil down to "I want the 'Other side' to screw up so bad that 'my side' finally gets everything it wants."

I've always found these rather distasteful. I did not vote for Trump. I did not want him to be our President. But I don't want the whole system do fail just so I can feel smug about "the other side" failing.
And then you say this:

Quote:
I want Donald Trump to fail politically. ("Fail" isn't exactly the term, but it's close.) But I want it to happen in a way that doesn't hurt the country. I still want him to succeed to a certain degree as President, because that's what's best for the country.
What is best for the country is for him to do a good job, period. Not a little, or just enough so he can still look bad to you. How could that even work? Gawd forbid you were wrong! What a stupid attitude.
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Old 17th February 2017, 01:21 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by seayakin View Post
If its the $3 million wealthiest people in America, I can live with that.
It's the 3 million illegals (7.6% of the population) in California
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Old 17th February 2017, 01:23 PM   #57
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Guy who wants to dismantle the EPA now in charge of the EPA. Woman who rejects the premise of public education now in charge of the Department of Education, etc.

I'm all for streamlining government bureaucracy, but wholesale dismantling/neutering of agencies is bad news.
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Old 17th February 2017, 01:33 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
And then you say this:



What is best for the country is for him to do a good job, period. Not a little, or just enough so he can still look bad to you. How could that even work? Gawd forbid you were wrong! What a stupid attitude.
Not necessarily. Short term benefits may be outweighed by long term considerations.

If Trump is a brilliant president, we encourage the further coarsening of the campaign, the acceptance of blatant and obvious lies in public statements, the acceptance of celebrities with no background in politics for our top office, etc.

I'd like Trump to do well, but not so well that his behavior is normalized.
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Old 17th February 2017, 02:43 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
No, he was not. I'll give that Sanders did relatively well. However, he did not reach out to the dem's base. It's as simple as that.
Not really sure Clinton succeeded in reaching out the dem's base all that well either, seeing as she didn't win. Maybe it's just the independents she failed to get through, that's possible.
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Old 17th February 2017, 02:45 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
And yet he got elected into the most powerful position in the world against someone who was supposed to be a shoe-in...

\_(ツ)_/
That's "shoo in".
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Old 17th February 2017, 02:46 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
And then you say this:



What is best for the country is for him to do a good job, period. Not a little, or just enough so he can still look bad to you. How could that even work? Gawd forbid you were wrong! What a stupid attitude.
I'm not seeing the contradiction in those positions. They seem pretty consistent to me.
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Old 17th February 2017, 03:24 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post

Just think about it. The 2020 election will make this one seem boring. It will be the ultimate Republican vs the ultimate Democrat. It would be like JFK vs Ronald Reagan.
Maybe if you think Ronald Reagan is the ultimate Republican. I don't. A Teddy Roosevelt style progressive conservative would make a far more interesting race.
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Old 17th February 2017, 04:03 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
No matter how you look at it, kernels of corn in a turd does not make it salsa.
You appear to assume that "shrewd" and "cunning" are complements.
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Old 17th February 2017, 05:39 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
And yet he got elected into the most powerful position in the world against someone who was supposed to be a shoe-in...

\_(ツ)_/
He represented a constituency.
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Old 17th February 2017, 05:45 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I'm all for streamlining government bureaucracy, but wholesale dismantling/neutering of agencies is bad news.
Depends on what you want. Those of us who want to destroy the Federal Government think it's great.

Originally Posted by MrFliop
I, a voter from a swing state, voted for Donald Trump
On behalf of those of us who hate America, I thank you for your sacrifice.

Quote:
The 2020 election will make this one seem boring.
Hopefully there will be lots of protests, overt voter suppression and election fraud, opponents dying in suspicious circumstances, riots incited by republicans and foreign powers, and mass incarceration of liberals. This will lead to all-out civil war, which Trump will end by nuking the blue states. With the US now out of the way, Russia and China will start sizing each other up...
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Old 18th February 2017, 01:05 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
#ThatsHowYouGetNevilleChamberlain

Sometimes going with the guy who will get less people killed is what ends up getting more people killed.
That makes no sense at all, Chamberlain according to you wasn't the one to get less people killed so he wouldn't have been the one to go for.
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Old 18th February 2017, 01:12 AM   #67
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He's a great (or maybe the greatest?) stress test of American rule of law and political stability.

We'll see how low his approval rating can go before even his nominal allies and fellow party members feel they have to act against him just to save their own skin.
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Old 18th February 2017, 01:23 AM   #68
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Congress has been chugging along with an approval rating slightly lower then getting slapped in the face with your own dead dog while your worst enemy makes sweet love to your girl on the casket at your mother's funeral for some time now. I'm interested to see how low approval rating is going to functionally hurt the President on a practical level.
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Old 18th February 2017, 01:44 AM   #69
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As the spectre of a Trump win loomed ever larger, one word kept going around in my shell shocked brain.

Nihilism.

And the OP only adds that extra bit of confirmation.
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Old 18th February 2017, 02:09 AM   #70
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When it comes to Trump's personality, I trust the word of his biographers and ghostwriters: they spend more time than any outsider with him.
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Old 18th February 2017, 04:24 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Congress has been chugging along with an approval rating slightly lower then getting slapped in the face with your own dead dog while your worst enemy makes sweet love to your girl on the casket at your mother's funeral for some time now. I'm interested to see how low approval rating is going to functionally hurt the President on a practical level.
People hate congress not their congressman.
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Old 18th February 2017, 06:08 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
There's a lot of political arguments or desires out there that, when you get right down to it, boil down to "I want the 'Other side' to screw up so bad that 'my side' finally gets everything it wants."

I've always found these rather distasteful. I did not vote for Trump. I did not want him to be our President. But I don't want the whole system do fail just so I can feel smug about "the other side" failing.
And then you say this:

Quote:
I want Donald Trump to fail politically. ("Fail" isn't exactly the term, but it's close.) But I want it to happen in a way that doesn't hurt the country. I still want him to succeed to a certain degree as President, because that's what's best for the country.
What is best for the country is for him to do a good job, period. Not a little, or just enough so he can still look bad to you. How could that even work? Gawd forbid you were wrong! What a stupid attitude.
There are plenty of ways where that could happen.

Party isn't country. He could fail to implement several of his more damaging decisions through ineptitude, and the US continues more or less as it is.
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Old 18th February 2017, 08:45 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by seayakin View Post
I'm going to turn this around. I didn't vote for Trump but I might be willing to change my views if in four years we have:
  • 99% of Americans have affordable health care options
  • Middle class and poor have job opportunities and real incomes are increasing
  • We have clean waters and clean air and half of Florida is not under water
  • We are not embroiled in any major war and we have friendly relations with the world
  • Progress on reducing the national debt
  • We can be confident the government is working for us not for an elite few who influence politicians.

I don't have high hopes.
I didn't vote for Mr. Orange Marmalade either but, I once stated that I would vote for anyone who promises to raise taxes, so Bernie would have gotten my vote had he made it.

So, some sort of tax reform where the corporate tax rate is greatly reduced, but made up in some other areas. I think a reduced corporate rate and a balanced budget would help 2 of your bullet points.


Edited to add, if he doubles my 401K/IRA, then he gets my vote.
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Old 19th February 2017, 05:10 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
No, he was not. I'll give that Sanders did relatively well. However, he did not reach out to the dem's base. It's as simple as that.
No, Sanders didn't do that well. Remember it was a two horse race. His numbers were inflated due to the Caucuses where those who have the most rabid supporters who are willing to drop their lives to go to the Caucus tend to do a lot better than their true support would indicate. When you look at the Primaries which allows everyone to vote by mail or ballot throughout the day rather than having to turn up as a certain time and place, you'll see that his support was not really that high. When it come to closed primaries it was clear to see that he had extremely little support from the party membership.

The only close primary he won in the US was Oregon, and the average points difference for them was 17.2

Sanders won the Caucuses 12 to 5

Clinton won the Primaries 28 to 11

Clinton also convincingly won the Washington Primary despite losing the Caucus there.

Sanders wasn't just down by nearly 350 pledged delegates at the end, but also 3.7 million votes, 12.2% of the total vote!

Compare with 2008 where there was just 62 pledged delegates difference and Obama had just 90,856 more votes than Clinton just 0.26% of the total number of votes.

Had this been a pre-2012 year where California was held on Super Tuesday, the race would have been over in March, but due to it being held so late the Sanders camp just couldn't give up the dream of a big win there that would put them back in the game. It was never going to happen.
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Old 19th February 2017, 08:39 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That makes no sense at all, Chamberlain according to you wasn't the one to get less people killed so he wouldn't have been the one to go for.
Its also historically inaccurate - Chamberlain didn't get more people killed.
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Old 19th February 2017, 09:55 PM   #76
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I wonder how many of those that "hate campaign seasons" are all excited because Trump has started his 2020 campaign already.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 20th February 2017, 12:57 AM   #77
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Its also historically inaccurate - Chamberlain didn't get more people killed.
That may be true in an alternate universe, but not the post-fact one we live in.

You see, in this universe a thing is true if you want it to be, and false if you don't - unless you're a liberal, in which case everything you believe in is false by definition.
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Old 20th February 2017, 01:02 AM   #78
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
That may be true in an alternate universe, but not the post-fact one we live in.

You see, in this universe a thing is true if you want it to be, and false if you don't - unless you're a liberal, in which case everything you believe in is false by definition.
And, by liberal you mean anyone not a Trump supporter.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 20th February 2017, 01:42 AM   #79
Aepervius
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
And then you say this:



What is best for the country is for him to do a good job, period. Not a little, or just enough so he can still look bad to you. How could that even work? Gawd forbid you were wrong! What a stupid attitude.
How many republican were moaning and hoping Obama did a bad job, and yet tried to find all excuse possible to say he did a bad job even if it was stuff Bush signed off on ?

Gawd forbid the other side do it now, that would be petty.


On the other hand you can't play in mud and then ask with a straight face to be clean.
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Old 20th February 2017, 01:24 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
On the other hand you can't play in mud and then ask with a straight face to be clean.
You can, however, play in the mud and then claim it was a spa treatment...
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