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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 25th November 2020, 02:37 PM   #921
The Great Zaganza
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The US military has made it clear that they think Biden is the legitimate President-elect.
The fact that they put a no-fly zone over his location the moment it was clear that he would win is strong evidence for this.
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Old 25th November 2020, 02:52 PM   #922
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Rudy's claims about a nationwide conspiracy are off the rails.
As is Rudy himself.
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Old 25th November 2020, 03:22 PM   #923
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Donald Drumpf pardons Michael Flynn.
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Old 25th November 2020, 04:22 PM   #924
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
These are elected officials who ought to be thrown out on their ear by voters just for saying what they are saying. This sort of rhetoric is both disconnected from reality and a sign that they don't get this whole democracy thing. Either one of those should be enough for voters to recognize they are dangerous in their positions, but it won't happen.
They get it. Apparently, it's not terribly agreeable to them, but they get it.
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Old 25th November 2020, 04:22 PM   #925
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
These are elected officials who ought to be thrown out on their ear by voters just for saying what they are saying.
But they won't, because they are giving their voters what they want.

Quote:
This sort of rhetoric is both disconnected from reality and a sign that they don't get this whole democracy thing.
Neither do the voters.

Quote:
Either one of those should be enough for voters to recognize they are dangerous in their positions, but it won't happen.
What's really dangerous is that voters put these people in their positions, not because they don't recognize the danger but because they want dangerous people there. They need them to counter the 'real' threat - liberals. If the people they elect don't act dangerously enough they will be replaced - so if those people want to keep their jobs then they need to act dangerously.

Most republicans don't want democracy, they want to get their own way no matter what, and they 'know' it's 'right' so any way they can get it is OK. 70% of republicans 'believe' that the election was stolen from them. That need to 'believe' is the real danger, and the dangerous people they put in power are just a symptom of that need.
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Old 25th November 2020, 04:39 PM   #926
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I watched a couple of minutes of the conference, at what turned out to be the last speech before adjournment.

He quoted Saint Paul, so apparently God is on their side.

This thread has been dominated by coup or not coup discussion, and whoever it was that was talking demonstrated why that conversation is happening. He is encouraging the legislature and the courts to ignore the vote count, and declare Trump the Pennsylvania winner. That's not the same thing as ordering the tanks in and rounding up the opposition leaders at the point of a gun, but it's not hard to understand why the comparisons are made.

ETA: Fortunately, as several people note, it won't succeed. These people will be pointed at and laughed at. What upsets me is that they won't be pointed at and laughed at enough. These are elected officials who ought to be thrown out on their ear by voters just for saying what they are saying. This sort of rhetoric is both disconnected from reality and a sign that they don't get this whole democracy thing. Either one of those should be enough for voters to recognize they are dangerous in their positions, but it won't happen.
Yes, but my point is that it softens up the soil for future efforts in that direction, which I think is extremely dangerous. I'm laughing at these people, but I'm not laughing at what this insanity bodes for the future.

If Trump calculated that he had the leverage to order loyalists enforce his re-election, he'd do it without hesitation.
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Old 26th November 2020, 02:29 AM   #927
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I don't think it's possible to have a system SO perfect that no one could try to game it or question it.

I think trying to fix things beyond the point where disingenuous people can criticize them is a useless treadmill at BEST and playing right into their plans in reality.

Systems that decide elections are made up of humans and are complex. There is no way to create them that makes them free from made up conspiracy theories.

Heck, running a pizza restaurant isn't free from conspiracy theories. When they're promulgated by the poweholders in a party that speaks for almost half of the residents of a country, facts, real fairness and transparency can never stop that.

Letting disingenuous BS put you on the defensive or trying to placate them is a useless move.
I understand what you´re saying but I fully disagree. Systems that run elections are usually painstakingly open and transparent because "Caesar´s wife must be above suspicion", it´s not enough being "good enough", it has to be exemplary. The answer to any allegation of fraud should always be "look at this system, fraud is impossible", and the system should be simple enough for any average citizen to understand.

As long as there are things like electronic voting, suspicions of cheating will not be as farfetched as they should be. (Postal voting is another can of worms...)
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Old 26th November 2020, 02:41 AM   #928
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
I understand what you´re saying but I fully disagree. Systems that run elections are usually painstakingly open and transparent because "Caesar´s wife must be above suspicion", it´s not enough being "good enough", it has to be exemplary. The answer to any allegation of fraud should always be "look at this system, fraud is impossible", and the system should be simple enough for any average citizen to understand.

As long as there are things like electronic voting, suspicions of cheating will not be as farfetched as they should be. (Postal voting is another can of worms...)
your trust in the system cannot come from the system alone: something that has to serve millions will always have exploitable weaknesses.


The Trust has to come from believing in the enlightened self-interest of the parties running and observing.
That is why elections are monitored in a bi-partisan manner: we trust that it is in the interest of the Observers to point out irregularities and NOT make up claims.
This goes both ways.

A party that claims fraud where there is none is weakening the system itself, and with it the legitimacy of all its wins, past, present and future.


You might have noticed that the Trump Squad didn't challenge any Senate or House races; that alone should tell you that the accusations are fraudulent.
That is because Trump&co don't care about the legitimacy of the Senate or House votes. And therefore don't care about the legitimacy of the Presidential election, either.
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Old 26th November 2020, 03:04 AM   #929
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
your trust in the system cannot come from the system alone: something that has to serve millions will always have exploitable weaknesses.


The Trust has to come from believing in the enlightened self-interest of the parties running and observing.
That is why elections are monitored in a bi-partisan manner: we trust that it is in the interest of the Observers to point out irregularities and NOT make up claims.
This goes both ways.

A party that claims fraud where there is none is weakening the system itself, and with it the legitimacy of all its wins, past, present and future.


You might have noticed that the Trump Squad didn't challenge any Senate or House races; that alone should tell you that the accusations are fraudulent.
That is because Trump&co don't care about the legitimacy of the Senate or House votes. And therefore don't care about the legitimacy of the Presidential election, either.
Yes, I know all that, as I said before, the fact that Trump didn´t do anything beforehand to try to tackle those possible weaknesses in the system that may permit cheating makes his accusations quite worthless.

But forget Trump, what I´m saying applies anytime, anywhere. And I worry that the right lessons are not being learned from the current controversy.

And also, what kind of observers look at the electronic signals of the electronic voting machines? And are observers present at all times in the postal voting system?

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Old 26th November 2020, 07:43 AM   #930
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
You might have noticed that the Trump Squad didn't challenge any Senate or House races; that alone should tell you that the accusations are fraudulent.
To be fair, when they challenged a bunch of districts in Minnesota by mistake (it seems they thought they were looking at Michigan), they did challenge a bunch where they won bigly.
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Old 26th November 2020, 08:18 AM   #931
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Truly, just not enough laughing dogs. Had you bothered to read, you might ponder the difference between the mob psychology of tearing down a statue, knowing they can do so without interference et al, versus a lone dough boy talking cheap swagger. Does Captain Comfy Couch have any precedent to believe he will not be interfered with when attacking the ******* US Govt?
I understand perfectly.

When people vandalize a statue, we must soberly consider every possible eventuality, up to and including the notion that America is teetering on the brink of a hellscape of mob rule.

When people threaten violent rebellion against the government, we laugh at them for being fat.


Quote:
Has it occurred to you that the 3 mil might already be completely docile and honest people, with no allegiance to Trump at all? No, I didn't think so.
Then according to you 100% of Americans are harmless. I’m not sure that math checks out. Particularly when you factor in the roving mobs of statue vandals that are poised to destroy society.
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Old 26th November 2020, 09:25 AM   #932
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But in all the places where we've lawsuits attempted the laws have been shown to be pretty clear, why change what works and has worked in the past.?

This is an example of the insidious manner in which the big lie works, people may not think mass fraud has gone on but think there are areas of concerns.

Don't fall for it. Ask for evidence of significant problems or areas of weakness.
I'm thinking a lot of places where it just says a certain official is to do something, it needs to discuss irregularities... such as "unless ordered to by a court with jurisdiction" and to say what happens if the official refuses to cooperate--such as "in the event (xxx) official does not or cannot do so..." describing where to go from there, and distinguish between them not performing the task because of legal obligation, or not performing the task just because they didn't want to.
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Old 26th November 2020, 07:44 PM   #933
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Doesn't exactly stick though, see all the torture and likewise being policy. No one actually stood up to that.

I've seen this argument before, but I don't think it's the slam-dunk people think it is.

Ultimately, whether or not someone follows an illegal order comes down to a choice made by the individual. In the case of torture during Gulf War II, lots of those individuals actually believed that the torture was necessary, to stop terrorist attacks. That belief was probably flawed, but is was also strongly motivated by people's emotional reactions to the 9/11 attacks - they really wanted to make people pay for that.

Do we have that kind of emotionally-motivated buy-in for supporting a Trump Coup? I suspect not. And that makes all the difference.

There might be a few in the military who are Trumper enough to support a coup, but I think they'll be heavily out-numbered by those who either aren't Trumpers, or who are Trumpers but value their oath to the Constitution more than their loyalty to Trump.
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Old 28th November 2020, 10:46 AM   #934
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
USA Today: Georgia election official certifies Biden victory

Can you imagine a couple of GOP legislator sycophants from MI wasting their political careers by overturning the voters' choice in their state? It's a guaranteed fail move because apparently it isn't allowed under state law.
https://www.yorkdispatch.com/story/news/2020/11/27/mastriano-says-legislature-should-overturn-trump-loss/6440328002/

Wow! So weird that, even when the futility of the gesture is clearer than ever before, this legislator does not seem to be afraid of wasting his political career by overturning the voters' choice in the state! Inconceivable!
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Old 28th November 2020, 10:48 AM   #935
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I've seen this argument before, but I don't think it's the slam-dunk people think it is.

Ultimately, whether or not someone follows an illegal order comes down to a choice made by the individual. In the case of torture during Gulf War II, lots of those individuals actually believed that the torture was necessary, to stop terrorist attacks. That belief was probably flawed, but is was also strongly motivated by people's emotional reactions to the 9/11 attacks - they really wanted to make people pay for that.

Do we have that kind of emotionally-motivated buy-in for supporting a Trump Coup? I suspect not. And that makes all the difference.

There might be a few in the military who are Trumper enough to support a coup, but I think they'll be heavily out-numbered by those who either aren't Trumpers, or who are Trumpers but value their oath to the Constitution more than their loyalty to Trump.
There's always going to be an "emotionally-motivated buy-in". That being said, I suspect that Trump is probably the least popular president with the military (specially given that military folk usually favor Republicans).
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Old 28th November 2020, 11:04 AM   #936
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Wow! So weird that, even when the futility of the gesture is clearer than ever before, this legislator does not seem to be afraid of wasting his political career by overturning the voters' choice in the state! Inconceivable!
He's not wasting his career. There's not even any downside for him doing it. The Democrats' response has been to shrug and smugly shake their heads, not actually make any hay of this. He might pick up a couple of crazies who remember him supporting their pumpkinfuhrer, but no one's really going to hold it against him later, so why not? Because it's "eroding the fabric of democracy?" Buddy, have you seen the Republican Party these days?
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Old 28th November 2020, 12:44 PM   #937
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
https://www.yorkdispatch.com/story/news/2020/11/27/mastriano-says-legislature-should-overturn-trump-loss/6440328002/

Wow! So weird that, even when the futility of the gesture is clearer than ever before, this legislator does not seem to be afraid of wasting his political career by overturning the voters' choice in the state! Inconceivable!
I don't recall I ever said there weren't wackos in state legislatures. In fact, I even mentioned one in my state (Shea) that was as nutty as they come.

This fact you bring to my attention doesn't mean for one second that the state legislatures would follow this lead. And in fact, they are not.

From your link (did you read to the bottom?) :
Quote:
Republicans control both chambers of the state Legislature, but leaders in the House and Senate have repeatedly rebuffed suggestions that they might move to overturn the results and award Pennsylvania's 20 electors to Trump.

Jason Gottesman, a spokesperson for the House GOP, said Friday he was not aware of Mastriano's effort to have the Legislature seat electors. But, he said, the position of that chamber's Republican leadership remained unchanged.

“Our position on the seating of electors has not changed, and we don’t have a role,” Gottesman said.
That was in the middle. They go on to report on the 'Senate' meeting which was actually a meeting of Trump sycophants in a hotel conference room where they paraded 'witnesses' (I only watched a couple minutes of it) and Trump phoned it in. In the end nothing happened. And one more case went before the Third Circuit which was supposed to be a move to get an appeal before SCOTUS. This is discussed in the 2020 election thread.

Said "this legislator" has no power on his own and did not convince his colleagues to throw their careers out in a futile attempt to keep Trump in power. Trump needs more than PA and the other states have certified their electors.

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Old 29th November 2020, 02:44 AM   #938
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
https://www.yorkdispatch.com/story/news/2020/11/27/mastriano-says-legislature-should-overturn-trump-loss/6440328002/

Wow! So weird that, even when the futility of the gesture is clearer than ever before, this legislator does not seem to be afraid of wasting his political career by overturning the voters' choice in the state! Inconceivable!
The sad thing is that he may not be throwing away his political career. There's a faction in the Republican party that clearly doesn't care about getting the most votes; they care about winning. If this keeps up, there will be a faction of the Democrats who also only care about winning. When that happens, you ain't seen nothing yet.
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Old 29th November 2020, 09:58 AM   #939
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The sad thing is that he may not be throwing away his political career. There's a faction in the Republican party that clearly doesn't care about getting the most votes; they care about winning. If this keeps up, there will be a faction of the Democrats who also only care about winning. When that happens, you ain't seen nothing yet.
This faction would be called "the republican party". Thus the wild gerrymandering, the suppression of black/native/young voters, and so forth. It's been more or less obvious for a couple of decades now, when you get down to it - and not very well veiled even before then.
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Old 29th November 2020, 10:17 AM   #940
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And I think you can see why they have been so scared about allowing all those who can vote to vote.
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Old 29th November 2020, 11:18 AM   #941
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And I think you can see why they have been so scared about allowing making it easier for all those who can vote to vote.
Jut a minor quibble. All those who are eligible to vote are already allowed to vote. Nothing is stopping them from voting except their own laziness, stupidity, apathy, etc.

Having said that, I think mail voting should be implemented nationwide. And voter registration should be automatic for all over the age of 18. Nobody should have to physically register or vote in person.
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Old 29th November 2020, 11:44 AM   #942
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Jut a minor quibble. All those who are eligible to vote are already allowed to vote. Nothing is stopping them from voting except their own laziness, stupidity, apathy, etc.

Having said that, I think mail voting should be implemented nationwide. And voter registration should be automatic for all over the age of 18. Nobody should have to physically register or vote in person.
You . . . you . . . democracy-loving, vote-supporting, election-improving little citizen!
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Old 29th November 2020, 12:31 PM   #943
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Jut a minor quibble. All those who are eligible to vote are already allowed to vote. Nothing is stopping them from voting except their own laziness, stupidity, apathy, etc.
A lot is hiding in those 3 letters.

US election 2020: Why it can be hard to vote in the US
Quote:
Queues, restrictive voting laws and limited access to polling stations all keep people from participating in the democratic process, says Andrea Hailey, the CEO of Vote.org, a non-partisan non-profit that aims to use technology to help people register to vote.

Some of those obstacles have been amplified by the pandemic, which has led to a nationwide shortage of poll workers and fewer in-person polling stations. "People are having to jump through an extra series of hoops just to participate," Ms Hailey warned...

10-hour waits

In Georgia, thousands of voters waited hours just to cast their ballot during early voting. Many attribute the long wait to voter enthusiasm, but other factors - like a limited number of polls, understaffing or computer glitches - have also been blamed...

And long queues disproportionately affect wage workers, who don't get paid time off to vote.


Naked ballots and other strict rules

Policies like requiring voters to print out a form can dissuade younger or poorer voters, who are less likely to own a printer, from voting, says Ms Hailey.

In Pennsylvania, the state supreme court ruled that ballots mailed in without a secrecy envelope hiding the identity of the voter would be declared invalid...

Long drives

In rural parts of America, voters may have to drive for hours to reach an in-person polling station... In Nevada, for instance, members of the Pyramid Lake Paiutes must drive almost 100 miles (160km) round trip to get to the closest early voting location.


ID laws

Once people get through the line, they may have to prove they are who they say they are.

In 35 states, voters must show some sort of ID at the poll. While some allow a written affidavit if an ID is missing, a handful of states, namely Wisconsin, Texas, Kansas, Indiana, Tennessee, Missouri and Georgia, do not...

Roll purges

In the US, local counties administer the elections - and each county or state has its own rules and regulations. Some regularly purge voters names from lists of registered voters, which mean voters need to register all over again...

Prison voting bans

Most states also restrict the voting rights of felons - criminals who have been convicted of more serious crimes and sentenced to prison. Some states automatically restore voting rights after the sentence is served, while others wait until after probation and parole is served, and after all fines have been paid.

And finally...
Quote:
Before coronavirus, many states required you to have your mail-in ballot signed by a notary or witnesses. Since the pandemic, many of those states have eased restrictions - but a handful still remain...

There are currently [20 October] over 300 lawsuits in 44 states concerning how absentee votes are counted, who is allowed to vote early and how mail-in ballots are collected. Republican-run states say restrictions are necessary to clamp down on voter fraud, while Democrats say these are attempts to keep people from exercising their civic rights.
Laziness, stupidity, and apathy are not the only things stopping people from voting. Many people rightfully feared that Covid-19 would disrupt their ability to vote in person, but Republicans did their best to discourage them from voting by mail too. Some of us literally had to risk dying to ensure that our votes would be counted.
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Old 29th November 2020, 12:38 PM   #944
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Jut a minor quibble. All those who are eligible to vote are already allowed to vote. Nothing is stopping them from voting except their own laziness, stupidity, apathy, etc.
Nonsense. You can only take this position if you ignore the well documented voter disenfranchisement in this country. I personally know active voters who have been purged from the Georgia voter registration under flimsy pretences (other voters with similar names in other areas of Georgia in one instance).

It's easy to assume that because something is easy for you to do, then the only reason others don't do it is laziness, or stupidity, or apathy, etc, but that is simply false.

Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Having said that, I think mail voting should be implemented nationwide. And voter registration should be automatic for all over the age of 18. Nobody should have to physically register or vote in person.
I agree with this, though.
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Old 29th November 2020, 02:27 PM   #945
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Jut a minor quibble. All those who are eligible to vote are already allowed to vote. Nothing is stopping them from voting except their own laziness, stupidity, apathy, etc.

Having said that, I think mail voting should be implemented nationwide. And voter registration should be automatic for all over the age of 18. Nobody should have to physically register or vote in person.
Add one more thing: Registration is not aligned or associated with any political party. Instead, make a national register of voters. You could even give it a short, snappy name, like...National Register of Voters. Then anyone wishing to vote could make a non-political inquiry as to their status at any time. And poll workers could use the register to tick off people who vote at elections, mail or in person.
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Last edited by Norman Alexander; 29th November 2020 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 29th November 2020, 04:19 PM   #946
shemp
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Add one more thing: Registration is not aligned or associated with any political party. Instead, make a national register of voters. You could even give it a short, snappy name, like...National Register of Voters. Then anyone wishing to vote could make a non-political inquiry as to their status at any time. And poll workers could use the register to tick off people who vote at elections, mail or in person.
Sorry, I don't like that because I don't like open primaries. A person should have to declare a political affiliation to vote in a primary. And I believe that declaration should have to be made at least several months in advance of the primary, to prevent "spoiler" voter from crossing parties to try to affect the party primary negatively.
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Old 29th November 2020, 04:26 PM   #947
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Sorry, I don't like that because I don't like open primaries. A person should have to declare a political affiliation to vote in a primary. And I believe that declaration should have to be made at least several months in advance of the primary, to prevent "spoiler" voter from crossing parties to try to affect the party primary negatively.
That doesn't solve the problem you seem to want to solve. I can change my registration at any time.
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Old 29th November 2020, 04:32 PM   #948
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Sorry, I don't like that because I don't like open primaries. A person should have to declare a political affiliation to vote in a primary. And I believe that declaration should have to be made at least several months in advance of the primary, to prevent "spoiler" voter from crossing parties to try to affect the party primary negatively.
I did a same day party change in 2016 hoping to affect the party primary positively. I voted in the Republican primary for the first time ever so that I could vote against Donald Trump. It didn't work, but I tried.


Personally, I don't like partisan primaries at all. You have to run to the outside to pick up the nomination, and run to the center to pick up the general election. What has become truly awful is that with safe districts, the only way a congressman can lose is if he isn't extreme enough, and gets "primaried". There ought to be a better way to pick a president or a congressman.
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Old 29th November 2020, 04:57 PM   #949
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Notice the alternative he presents, i.e. what he wants to believe and what what he can't believe:

"If I'm being manipulated by Trump ... then he is the greatest con man that ever lived in America," Caleb Fryar said, "I think he's the greatest patriot that ever lived."

It's the reason why Fox has been so popular and is now being replaced by Newsmax and OAN: They confirm their delusion and help them believe that Trump's palpable insanity is truth.



Some of them are bound to act out when it becomes impossible for them to hold on to their faith in the leader of their cult.



By the way, Trump isn't the greatest con man that ever lived in America. His performance is pathetic. But he was supported by an apparatus that is still there to help the next one, and more (Newsmax, OAN) are hoping to join in and get their share of the market.
He got to be president.
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Old 29th November 2020, 05:07 PM   #950
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I did a same day party change in 2016 hoping to affect the party primary positively. I voted in the Republican primary for the first time ever so that I could vote against Donald Trump. It didn't work, but I tried.


Personally, I don't like partisan primaries at all. You have to run to the outside to pick up the nomination, and run to the center to pick up the general election. What has become truly awful is that with safe districts, the only way a congressman can lose is if he isn't extreme enough, and gets "primaried". There ought to be a better way to pick a president or a congressman.
Twenty years ago maybe. Maybe even ten. But now...

Hillary ran the left-wing-primary, centrist-general playbook, and lost.

2016 Primary Trump was indistinguishable from 2016 General Election Trump. Still got the nod.

There really is no center anymore. You have a bunch of people with liberal ideas, a bunch of people with right wing ideas, and a small handful of "Ideologically Inconsistent" types. You know, the "We have to protect people with pre-existing medical conditions so let's get rid of Obamacare, then use the trillions of dollars we will save from that to cure cancer with shark cartilage" types that you can't make any headway with because they are too stupid to grasp the questions, let alone the answers.

It's all about turning out your base now...
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Old 29th November 2020, 06:41 PM   #951
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I did a same day party change in 2016 hoping to affect the party primary positively. I voted in the Republican primary for the first time ever so that I could vote against Donald Trump. It didn't work, but I tried.





Personally, I don't like partisan primaries at all. You have to run to the outside to pick up the nomination, and run to the center to pick up the general election. What has become truly awful is that with safe districts, the only way a congressman can lose is if he isn't extreme enough, and gets "primaried". There ought to be a better way to pick a president or a congressman.
The overly complex system that was created by the god like founding fathers doesn't stop any of the problems they were trying to prevent and has many downsides they didn't forsee.
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Old 30th November 2020, 12:24 AM   #952
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There ought to be a better way to pick a president or a congressman.
One person One vote, more proportional representation or at least RCV, primaries like Alaska just voted for, ...

But tell that to your Constitution.
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Old 30th November 2020, 02:15 AM   #953
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Twenty years ago maybe. Maybe even ten. But now...

Hillary ran the left-wing-primary, centrist-general playbook, and lost.

2016 Primary Trump was indistinguishable from 2016 General Election Trump. Still got the nod.
Nah. Both Biden and Clinton had the same ideas in the general that they did in the primary - with the major difference being that Biden threw a bone to Sanders voters while Clinton worked hard to attract black voters, and both groups were far more fired up by 4 years of Dolt 45's dumpster fire presidency
in 2020 than by anything that could have happened in 2016 - same with every other dem group.
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Old 30th November 2020, 03:01 AM   #954
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Sorry, I don't like that because I don't like open primaries. A person should have to declare a political affiliation to vote in a primary. And I believe that declaration should have to be made at least several months in advance of the primary, to prevent "spoiler" voter from crossing parties to try to affect the party primary negatively.
In-party elections, which is what the primaries are, should be entirely separate from actual public elections.

The political parties are not a part of official government. They are a construct that is not even mentioned in the US constitution, I gather. They are effectively clubs or associations of like-minded people. They can have any kind of membership to be "in the party" however they like. And they can ask whomever they want to choose their leaders however they want, debates, hoopla, balloons and all. As long as it is all legal, of course.

If you wish to register with a party as a member and perhaps be active in their political works then by all means do so. But that should have zero bearing on your ability to cast official votes in any elections. You should not have to be a party member, even nominally, to be allowed vote. The party should not be able to enrol you to vote either. None of their business.

Instead, you should be able to register to vote completely independently of any party affiliation or lack thereof. Your name should go on (or stay on) a voters' register, put there by you, solely if you qualify to be able to vote. There should be no need and no space to put down "D" or "R" next to that.
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Old 30th November 2020, 03:18 AM   #955
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
In-party elections, which is what the primaries are, should be entirely separate from actual public elections.
I could never understand why the election of a Party nomination for President becomes the responsibility of the government in the US. Shouldn't this be done by the parties themselves internally through whatever mechanism they deem fit?
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Old 30th November 2020, 03:50 AM   #956
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Sorry, I don't like that because I don't like open primaries. A person should have to declare a political affiliation to vote in a primary. And I believe that declaration should have to be made at least several months in advance of the primary, to prevent "spoiler" voter from crossing parties to try to affect the party primary negatively.
I'd suggest you need to move to having political parties like most other countries do.
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Old 30th November 2020, 04:34 AM   #957
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I like the way Trump said he will concede if he loses the Electoral College vote. His plan is to corrupt that vote.
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Old 30th November 2020, 07:25 AM   #958
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This fact you bring to my attention doesn't mean for one second that the state legislatures would follow this lead. And in fact, they are not.

From your link (did you read to the bottom?) :That was in the middle. They go on to report on the 'Senate' meeting which was actually a meeting of Trump sycophants in a hotel conference room where they paraded 'witnesses' (I only watched a couple minutes of it) and Trump phoned it in. In the end nothing happened. And one more case went before the Third Circuit which was supposed to be a move to get an appeal before SCOTUS. This is discussed in the 2020 election thread.

Said "this legislator" has no power on his own and did not convince his colleagues to throw their careers out in a futile attempt to keep Trump in power. Trump needs more than PA and the other states have certified their electors.
Yup. And they have (almost) all taken a wait & see approach for most of this time. There's nothing intrinsically pure about state level Republican legislators & there are no consistent incentives that predispose them against siding with a coup attempt following the general outlines of what we have seen. They have been playing out a game theory scenario and waiting until they perceived a threshold of their group going one way or the other. There exist outliers one way (like this jackass) or the other (who would not ever go for this) but the vast majority of them are in the middle and, in principle, can be swayed to go one way or the other.

In the context of this election, it's been tipping one way (having Giuliani on Trump's side has helped,... just not Trump). It din't have to tip this one way. It was not inevitable. We got lucky.

We need to eliminate the electoral college system.
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Old 30th November 2020, 07:38 AM   #959
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I've seen this argument before, but I don't think it's the slam-dunk people think it is.

Ultimately, whether or not someone follows an illegal order comes down to a choice made by the individual. In the case of torture during Gulf War II, lots of those individuals actually believed that the torture was necessary, to stop terrorist attacks. That belief was probably flawed, but is was also strongly motivated by people's emotional reactions to the 9/11 attacks - they really wanted to make people pay for that.
Sure but it means that this blind faith in not following illegal orders is not warranted. It is only illegal and unpopular orders that will get refused, illegal and popular are of course fine.

It refutes the idea perfectly well that the UCMJ is something that will be followed regardless of the orders given. It wasn't and it won't be again. Merely being illegal and immoral is not any kind of bar to the military doing it, it has to be unpopular within the military.
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Old 30th November 2020, 07:43 AM   #960
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
I could never understand why the election of a Party nomination for President becomes the responsibility of the government in the US. Shouldn't this be done by the parties themselves internally through whatever mechanism they deem fit?
That's what I think as well. I can't see any down side to it.
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