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Old 28th February 2021, 10:49 AM   #1
Vixen
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Extraterrestrial origin for life on earth?

How do we know the seeds of life on earth didn't start from a massive asteroid hit? Thus, all flora and fauna on earth have evolved over millions and millions of years x millions millardia to be as they are or have become? Thus, on another planet we might not need water and oxygen, we might evolve to survive on Martian elements instead. IOW our bodies have adapted to earth so in theory we could adapt to other realms similarly.

Mod InfoSplit from this thread, as it's discussing a different topic.
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Old 28th February 2021, 11:02 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do we know the seeds of life on earth didn't start from a massive asteroid hit? Thus, all flora and fauna on earth have evolved over millions and millions of years x millions millardia to be as they are or have become? Thus, on another planet we might not need water and oxygen, we might evolve to survive on Martian elements instead. IOW our bodies have adapted to earth so in theory we could adapt to other realms similarly.
This word has no business in your post. And 'we' are animals that depend on a certain amount of warmth, air, shelter, water, food and don't react well to incessant radiation. We would die before any evolution could possibly take place. Chuck a bunch of humans onto an Earth-like planet, then maybe, but Mars could hardly be more different in terms of human survival.
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Old 28th February 2021, 11:10 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
This word has no business in your post. And 'we' are animals that depend on a certain amount of warmth, air, shelter, water, food and don't react well to incessant radiation. We would die before any evolution could possibly take place. Chuck a bunch of humans onto an Earth-like planet, then maybe, but Mars could hardly be more different in terms of human survival.
What came first? The earth or life on earth? IOW you don't know that life on earth originated from another planet entirely and evolved to adapt itself to earth.
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Old 28th February 2021, 11:19 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What came first? The earth or life on earth? IOW you don't know that life on earth originated from another planet entirely and evolved to adapt itself to earth.
And how much evolving would humans do in the 90 seconds before they died?
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Old 28th February 2021, 11:27 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What came first? The earth or life on earth? IOW you don't know that life on earth originated from another planet entirely and evolved to adapt itself to earth.
It's perfectly plausible, but if it happened it worked because Earth was amenable to life and its evolution. Mars is totally inhospitable.
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Old 28th February 2021, 11:28 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What came first? The earth or life on earth? IOW you don't know that life on earth originated from another planet entirely and evolved to adapt itself to earth.
The point being it didn't evolve to adapt itself to life on Mars. There's no secret Martian inside our genes, waiting to step out onto the Red Planet. You'd have to start over, from scratch, and hope trial and error finds a solution before life dies out completely due to lack of atmosphere, radiation shielding, and food.

Really, if we did this for real, we'd probably invest heavily in genetic engineering and advanced prosthetics, rather than wait for evolution to find a way.
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Old 28th February 2021, 11:39 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And how much evolving would humans do in the 90 seconds before they died?
You'd start off with the same handful of micro-organisms as the original asteroid had when it broke off from another planet from outer space and crashed into earth.

We have fully organic bodies that die just like plants, birds, bees and animals but our human essence is not organic but a form of intelligence, possibly alien intelligence that adopted organic features to survive on earth.
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Old 28th February 2021, 11:41 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You'd start off with the same handful of micro-organisms as the original asteroid had when it broke off from another planet from outer space and crashed into earth.

We have fully organic bodies that die just like plants, birds, bees and animals but our human essence is not organic but a form of intelligence, possibly alien intelligence that adopted organic features to survive on earth.
Can we have a separate thread for your woo claims about evolution and genetics?
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Old 28th February 2021, 12:00 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can we have a separate thread for your woo claims about evolution and genetics?
All life on earth started as a soup. Darwinism. Not woo.

You can't claim that our human form has always had this form.

So, if we have adapted over the millions of years of evolution to earth, we could do the same on another planet in theory.
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Old 28th February 2021, 12:05 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You'd start off with the same handful of micro-organisms as the original asteroid had when it broke off from another planet from outer space and crashed into earth.

We have fully organic bodies that die just like plants, birds, bees and animals but our human essence is not organic but a form of intelligence, possibly alien intelligence that adopted organic features to survive on earth.
Yeah… steps away carefully…..
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Old 28th February 2021, 12:08 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All life on earth started as a soup. Darwinism. Not woo.
Also not alien intelligence taking on organic features. The intelligence emerged from the organism as it evolved.

Quote:
You can't claim that our human form has always had this form.
Of course I can. It's even a reasonable claim, since this form is by definition the human form. The primate form it evolved from was pre-human.

You lead with an ostensibly scientific and reasonable claim of Darwinism and evolution, but then promptly side-step into woo about alien intelligences and human emergence that has nothing to do with evolutionary processes.

Quote:
So, if we have adapted over the millions of years of evolution to earth, we could do the same on another planet in theory.
In theory. But this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Unless your proposal for colonizing Mars is to throw microbes at it for millions of years and cross your fingers.
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Old 28th February 2021, 12:14 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
…snip… Unless your proposal for colonizing Mars is to throw microbes at it for millions of years and cross your fingers.
I’m going to get my Department of Infinite Monkeys to type up the proposal for NASA.
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Old 28th February 2021, 07:02 PM   #13
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Wow, the OP is... not even wrong.

For a start, there is zero evidence for panspermia. All indications are that life emerged here on earth.

Second... no that's actually enough.
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Old 28th February 2021, 07:09 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
All indications are that life emerged here on earth.
Could you give an overview of what those indications are?
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Old 28th February 2021, 08:41 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Could you give an overview of what those indications are?
Not being an expert in abiogenesis, not really. However, the fact remains that there is absolutely no evidence of panspermia. Lacking evidence, the most parsimonious assumption is that life appeared on earth.
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Old 28th February 2021, 10:58 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You'd start off with the same handful of micro-organisms as the original asteroid had when it broke off from another planet from outer space and crashed into earth.

<snip>
There are people who think that life arose on Mars first, then bits broke off and found their way to Earth. These could have carried life from Mars that seeded Earth.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedo...h=34b339111f76

It is unlikely as either the trip to Earth or the entry through the atmosphere may have killed off any life.

However
1. Anything buried under the rock might have survived.
2. Mars was more likely to have been habitable first. Any early life on Earth would have been wiped out when the moon was created.
3. We are only talking about the most basic life forms, not anything more advanced than that.
4. We do know that rocks do arrive on Earth that originated on Mars.
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Old 1st March 2021, 02:05 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It's perfectly plausible, but if it happened it worked because Earth was amenable to life and its evolution. Mars is totally inhospitable.
Actually, if life began on earth (or was brought here as Vixen suggests) it began/arrived in conditions utterly hostile to present-day life;

1. Atmosphere composed mostly of hydrogen, ammonia, water vapour, and methane, with no oxygen or nitrogen, and at a temparature around 60°C to 80°C

2. Planet-wide, green coloured oceans (due to high iron ion content) at temperatures 55°C to 85°C.

While there is no evidence to support Vixen's suggestion, it is not beyond reason or possibility. There is certainly nothing I have even heard of that would scientifically rule it out.

(the following was partially ninja'd by rjh01)

In fact, there are a number of scientists who theorise that Mars, being smaller and further from the sun, would have reached the conditions for life to begin many millions of years before that happened on the earth, and that perhaps life may have begun on Mars first and been brought here by an impact.
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Old 1st March 2021, 03:27 AM   #18
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Panspermia: avoiding the question of how organic life came about in the first place since before Fred Hoyle was a twinkle in Darwin's eye (or something).

If not here, then why somewhere else?
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Old 1st March 2021, 03:39 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do we know the seeds of life on earth didn't start from a massive asteroid hit? Thus, all flora and fauna on earth have evolved over millions and millions of years x millions millardia to be as they are or have become? Thus, on another planet we might not need water and oxygen, we might evolve to survive on Martian elements instead. IOW our bodies have adapted to earth so in theory we could adapt to other realms similarly.

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Posted By:zooterkin
We know there was a massive asteroid hit 65 million years ago that could destroy all nearby life yet contributed not one new strain of life on earth.
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Old 1st March 2021, 03:58 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Panspermia: avoiding the question of how organic life came about in the first place since before Fred Hoyle was a twinkle in Darwin's eye (or something).

If not here, then why somewhere else?
True, but I can't see anyone here suggesting that it was the only way for life to get started on Earth, just that it's a possibility or that panspermia added to the mix.
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Old 1st March 2021, 04:55 AM   #21
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^It's how I read the first 2 sentences in the OP of this version of the thread.
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Old 1st March 2021, 06:27 AM   #22
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If it is so easy for life to exist, why does the universe seem to be so dead? Hence, the Goldilocks principle. The planet must be just right.

That's one theory anyway, and life on earth is all we have to go on at the moment.
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Old 1st March 2021, 06:37 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And how much evolving would humans do in the 90 seconds before they died?

They would manage the “selection” bit, up to a point.
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:04 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Not being an expert in abiogenesis, not really. However, the fact remains that there is absolutely no evidence of panspermia.
OK. That's quite a bit different than there being multiple indications that life began on Earth. As far as I know there is only one indication, the fact that it is here now.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Lacking evidence, the most parsimonious assumption is that life appeared on earth.
If you mean "'appeared" that is not an assumption that is an observable fact. If you mean "assumption" than you probably meant to say it "arose" here? That's not the most parsimonious assumption. The most parsimonious is no assumption at all.

The ideas that life began strictly on Earth, strictly off Earth, or some combination are all equally compatible with the observations I think.

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Old 1st March 2021, 07:27 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do we know the seeds of life on earth didn't start from a massive asteroid hit? Thus, all flora and fauna on earth have evolved over millions and millions of years x millions millardia to be as they are or have become? Thus, on another planet we might not need water and oxygen, we might evolve to survive on Martian elements instead. IOW our bodies have adapted to earth so in theory we could adapt to other realms similarly.

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Posted By:zooterkin
Is there some missing context from the split? People seem to be reacting to things you aren't saying.

Your ideas, as stated, seem fine. Are you, though, trying to argue that humans from Earth could evolve to live on Mars? That's not plausible because evolution requires a lot of time for adaptations. Evolving on a slowly changing planet is one thing. An abrupt simultaneous adoption of many large adaptions as required by humans living on Mars would not be in the cards.

On the other hand, it is possible that life once existing on Mars and that it adapted to whatever Mars was.
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:35 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Is there some missing context from the split? People seem to be reacting to things you aren't saying.

Your ideas, as stated, seem fine. Are you, though, trying to argue that humans from Earth could evolve to live on Mars? That's not plausible because evolution requires a lot of time for adaptations. Evolving on a slowly changing planet is one thing. An abrupt simultaneous adoption of many large adaptions as required by humans living on Mars would not be in the cards.

On the other hand, it is possible that life once existing on Mars and that it adapted to whatever Mars was.
The short answer is that we do not know. In fact, we know very little, given the sheer length of time humans have been on earth since splitting off from the so-called 'missing link'. There is no denying the sheer technology and science needed to get to Mars and then even land safely indicates how advanced we have become, but then wait: Darwin didn't come along until mid-19th century, Roald Amundsen's expedition to chart Antarctica didn't happen until 1910, Edmund Hillary did not conquer Everest until 1953, we did not get the internet and mobile phones until VERY recently, so really one can only conjecture on the origins of Earth and life on Earth from what we know so far.

We can look at it from a geological POV and we know there have been meteorites and various space debris hitting the earth. Some claim that the human body contains all the elements of the universe, which is a bit fanciful but holds an element of some truth in that there is plenty of scrap value to be had from a human body in terms of trace minerals and metals.

Then we can look at history and we know from folklore, people associated comets with bad omens. For example, it was believed they carried various germs in their wake, causing plagues and what-not: superstition, or, like old wives remedies, a kernel of possibility?

If dust, debris, rocks can land from outer space then so can alien spores [from outer space] and viruses - alien forms - that technically may have the ability to adapt quickly to earthly environments.

We don't know what triggered life forms on earth. OK, so there is cell division but you would still need a catalyst of some sort to spark it off.

Obviously, to adapt to Mars or the Moon, you would have to start planning it today, to take effect several million years down the line.
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:41 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The short answer is that we do not know. In fact, we know very little, given the sheer length of time humans have been on earth since splitting off from the so-called 'missing link'. There is no denying the sheer technology and science needed to get to Mars and then even land safely indicates how advanced we have become, but then wait: Darwin didn't come along until mid-19th century, Roald Amundsen's expedition to chart Antarctica didn't happen until 1910, Edmund Hillary did not conquer Everest until 1953, we did not get the internet and mobile phones until VERY recently, so really one can only conjecture on the origins of Earth and life on Earth from what we know so far.

Er, what?
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Old 1st March 2021, 11:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Panspermia: avoiding the question of how organic life came about in the first place since before Fred Hoyle was a twinkle in Darwin's eye (or something).

If not here, then why somewhere else?
There is some chemistry that can occur in gas clouds that produces chemicals that are potentially useful in the emergence of pre-DNA life.

Conditions on early Mars, Earth and perhaps Venus were similar enough that if life started on one it should have started on the other as well, and as mentioned above Mars would likely have been first.


IMO it's more likely that it just started here on earth, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't look elsewhere as well.
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Old 1st March 2021, 11:31 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
We know there was a massive asteroid hit 65 million years ago that could destroy all nearby life yet contributed not one new strain of life on earth.
Panspermia is not thought to involve "massive" single impacts, but massive numbers of small impacts over a massive amount of time.

Also, as I keep trying to explain (and you seem to keep ignoring) the conditions for life to begin do not in any way resemble the conditions under which advanced life flourishes. The conditions at the time K–Pg extinction would be utterly hostile to any new strain life arriving by meteor impact, and even if such a thing happened, no evidence of it would exist now anyway
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Old 1st March 2021, 11:45 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
If it is so easy for life to exist, why does the universe seem to be so dead? Hence, the Goldilocks principle. The planet must be just right.

That's one theory anyway, and life on earth is all we have to go on at the moment.
This logic is somewhat like going down to the beach, scooping up a thimblefull of water from the sea, looking at it, and coming to the conclusion that all the talk about the danger of sharks at this beach must be wrong.
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Old 1st March 2021, 12:26 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Panspermia is not thought to involve "massive" single impacts, but massive numbers of small impacts over a massive amount of time.

Also, as I keep trying to explain (and you seem to keep ignoring) the conditions for life to begin do not in any way resemble the conditions under which advanced life flourishes. The conditions at the time K–Pg extinction would be utterly hostile to any new strain life arriving by meteor impact, and even if such a thing happened, no evidence of it would exist now anyway
The earth at that time wold have been a hostile place for larger multicellular organisms but smaller ones faired much better. The P-T event would have been much different as ocean chemistry seems to have been fundamentally overturned making it difficult for anything that needs oxygen to survive.



The thing is that conditions like this would have made the earth more habitable since a new strain of life because oxygen would be it's enemy. Even then the earth organisms that could live in that environment would have been far more complex and robust than anything new, so surviving the natives would be impossible.
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Old 1st March 2021, 12:32 PM   #32
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Panspermia: avoiding the question of how organic life came about in the first place since before Fred Hoyle was a twinkle in Darwin's eye (or something).

If not here, then why somewhere else?
That would be about like assuming Earth made the iron in it's iron core since it's here. No one is avoiding any question by proposing panspermia. In fact they are adding questions (and opportunities).
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Old 1st March 2021, 12:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
If it is so easy for life to exist, why does the universe seem to be so dead? Hence, the Goldilocks principle. The planet must be just right.

That's one theory anyway, and life on earth is all we have to go on at the moment.
Sheez. We have no idea how alive or dead the universe or even our own galaxy is. We have a sample size of one solar system at the moment and not even sure we fully understand it.
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Old 1st March 2021, 12:42 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The earth at that time wold have been a hostile place for larger multicellular organisms but smaller ones faired much better. The P-T event would have been much different as ocean chemistry seems to have been fundamentally overturned making it difficult for anything that needs oxygen to survive.
And yet small, oxygen breathing mammals did survive and eventually became us. (by "small" mean, for example, the Eoconodon, the size of an average large dog)

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The thing is that conditions like this would have made the earth more habitable since a new strain of life because oxygen would be it's enemy. Even then the earth organisms that could live in that environment would have been far more complex and robust than anything new, so surviving the natives would be impossible.
For any new form of life arriving on earth via, say, a meteor impact to arise and survive, it would need to be immediately better adapted to life on earth, and therefore a survival threat to the incumbent life.. that is extremely unlikely.
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Old 1st March 2021, 12:43 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
We know there was a massive asteroid hit 65 million years ago that could destroy all nearby life yet contributed not one new strain of life on earth.
Can you explain what the relevance is? Fauna and flora appeared on Earth a billion-ish year before that and life had been here at least two billion before that. So it's not obvious what your point is.
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Old 1st March 2021, 01:07 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do we know the seeds of life on earth didn't start from a massive asteroid hit? Thus, all flora and fauna on earth have evolved over millions and millions of years x millions millardia to be as they are or have become? Thus, on another planet we might not need water and oxygen, we might evolve to survive on Martian elements instead. IOW our bodies have adapted to earth so in theory we could adapt to other realms similarly.

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Posted By:zooterkin
We know that such a thing did not happen since it is extremely unlikely that there is any sort of life form which could survive a trip through empty space for thousands years, or even millions of years, and then somehow survive being adjacent to many mega-ton explosion, and yet still be intact enough to produce other life forms on this planet.
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Old 1st March 2021, 01:15 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The short answer is that we do not know. In fact, we know very little, given the sheer length of time humans have been on earth since splitting off from the so-called 'missing link'. There is no denying the sheer technology and science needed to get to Mars and then even land safely indicates how advanced we have become, but then wait: Darwin didn't come along until mid-19th century, Roald Amundsen's expedition to chart Antarctica didn't happen until 1910, Edmund Hillary did not conquer Everest until 1953, we did not get the internet and mobile phones until VERY recently, so really one can only conjecture on the origins of Earth and life on Earth from what we know so far.

We can look at it from a geological POV and we know there have been meteorites and various space debris hitting the earth. Some claim that the human body contains all the elements of the universe, which is a bit fanciful but holds an element of some truth in that there is plenty of scrap value to be had from a human body in terms of trace minerals and metals.

Then we can look at history and we know from folklore, people associated comets with bad omens. For example, it was believed they carried various germs in their wake, causing plagues and what-not: superstition, or, like old wives remedies, a kernel of possibility?

If dust, debris, rocks can land from outer space then so can alien spores [from outer space] and viruses - alien forms - that technically may have the ability to adapt quickly to earthly environments.

We don't know what triggered life forms on earth. OK, so there is cell division but you would still need a catalyst of some sort to spark it off.

Obviously, to adapt to Mars or the Moon, you would have to start planning it today, to take effect several million years down the line.
WTF?
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Old 1st March 2021, 01:50 PM   #38
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
We know that such a thing did not happen since it is extremely unlikely that there is any sort of life form which could survive a trip through empty space for thousands years, or even millions of years, and then somehow survive being adjacent to many mega-ton explosion, and yet still be intact enough to produce other life forms on this planet.
We know none of this to be true especially since Vixen said "seeds of life" and not fully functional life forms.

And also note that massive asteroids aren't the only things arriving on Earth. There are all sizes of things impacting Earth and some of them seem to arrive intact enough to bring bacteria or spores through the atmosphere. There have been debated cases (might even be current ones, I haven't looked recently) where it may have happened. There is also the famous Alan Hills meteorite of course which some thought had evidence of bacterial fossils. (ETA: The point of Alan Hills is that the supposed fossils were intact, not that they were alive or ever actually bacteria)

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Old 1st March 2021, 02:02 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
We know none of this to be true especially since Vixen said "seeds of life" and not fully functional life forms.
Vixen said a lot of things, including:

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We have fully organic bodies that die just like plants, birds, bees and animals but our human essence is not organic but a form of intelligence, possibly alien intelligence that adopted organic features to survive on earth.
That's not panspermia. That's intelligent aliens floating around the galaxy in non-organic form, housing themselves in organisms of their own design as an environmental adaptation.

Ironically, this is very close to my expectation of how humans will end up colonizing Mars (if they ever do). But it's not evolution, and it's not panspermia.

So there's a couple woo claims going on here. One is that human intelligence may have evolved elsewhere. This not only bizarre on its face, but also completely out of left field, unrelated to anything we're actually trying to discuss.

The other is an apparent proposal that we "colonize" Mars by attempting to reproduce a panspermia+evolution process on the Red Planet over millions of years.

Nobody thinks that panspermia is woo on its face. Some of us are trying to come to grips with the use Vixen is trying to make of the idea, and the woo cruft she's tacked onto it for no apparent reason.
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Old 1st March 2021, 02:15 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's not panspermia. That's intelligent aliens floating around the galaxy in non-organic form, housing themselves in organisms of their own design as an environmental adaptation.
She might have meant what you think, I can't tell. It could also be directed panspermia where some aliens created/adapted life forms (or spores, or whatever) and spread them through the galaxy.


ETA: Maybe Vixen can clarify was she meant.
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