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Tags faith healers , faith healing , Kathryn Kuhlman

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Old 25th October 2006, 12:37 AM   #41
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by snagswolf View Post
But then came a Sunday it wasn't some stranger being healed of some hidden malady. My sister's boyfriend has an uncle, and his uncle, at the time had a young daughter about 5 years old.
Does nobody else see the complete lack of common-sense in those two statements:

"It was no stranger"

"It was my sister's boyfriend's uncle's child"

Hell, I bet you and her were just bosom buddies.
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Old 25th October 2006, 01:37 AM   #42
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snagswolf, this incident you describe happened 33 years ago. I would hope that you are familiar with the degradation of memories of events that old - if not, I suggest some background reading.

It would be interesting to attempt to verify your memory. Are any of the players still alive? What do they remember? Is there physical evidence of the club feet in present x-rays? Is there any documentation of other, non-paranormal efforts to fix the problem?

In other words, use your memory only as a starting point to look into this event. Come back and tell us what you find out.
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Old 25th October 2006, 02:25 AM   #43
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Snagswolf, welcome.

Actually, I'd still be interested personally to see any photos you could obtain. Although they would be proof of nothing, occasionally useful information can be extracted from them re: possible explanations or indications of trickery or error.

Given Loss Leader's observation (post #20) that club foot can these days be very successfully treated, the most likely explanation does seem to be that successful medical intervention took place, but that this was erroneously attributed to the faith healer, based on a post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy (because improvements were noticed after faith healing, they must have been because of them). That is, it seems to me the most likely explanation simply through parsimony (Occam's razor), so it would be interesting to see if any evidence could be gathered to go towards supporting or rejecting the hypothesis - e.g. by immediately before and after pictures, accompanied by an affadavit from the doctor under whose treatment the girl was? This may sound stringent, but such evidence, assuming it stood up to scrutiny, would at least be a start.

So, it's be interesting to know what you think of this possibility. Bear in mind also that memory is incredibly malleable and unreliable, and that a story like this, which must have been rehearsed and retold a thousand times in your family, is especially vulnerable to 'evolution'.
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Old 25th October 2006, 04:27 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
Yet you tell this story as if it where supposed to inspire hope that things could get better; when in fact, if the story were true, it would merely show that all disease and illness are there because God wants them to be (given that he could make them go away in an instant). You think this is an example of somebody getting a special exemption; you do not understand it is an example of everyone else not getting a special exemption.

It takes a special kind of person to stand up in middle of a crowd of tortured, abused, crippled, dying children and shout, "Look at this! My cousin had a hang-nail cured by God!"
I think I'm in love. Will you father my children?

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Old 25th October 2006, 05:50 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
We are left to conclude one of two things:


A) There is a God, and He is the most capricious being imaginable. He does not conform to any human understanding of good, fair, reliable, responsible, reasonable, manageable, or comprehensible, yet He controls all aspects of our lives for his own inscrutable reasons. We are but playthings to Him. He heals or ruins, saves or damns whomever he wants, with no more concern for them than your cousin has for her stuffed animals. Actually, with less, if your cousin is a normal child.

B) You are somehow mistaken in your observations, and the laws of physics and nature did not spontaneously change.
Have you ever taken a course in elementary logic, Yahzi? If you had and you learned anything whatever, you would not make absurd either or "choices" of this nature.
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Old 25th October 2006, 06:28 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
"It was no stranger"

"It was my sister's boyfriend's uncle's child"
Interesting. when I first read this line
Quote:
My sister's boyfriend has an uncle, and his uncle, at the time had a young daughter
I took it to mean the boyfriend's uncle had an uncle with a young daughter, so I thought there was even more separation than you did.

But, your interpretation makes 'boyfriend' the cousin of 'child', and since many families are very close, the OP may very well have had enough of contact with her.

Last edited by Old man; 25th October 2006 at 06:31 AM. Reason: Change content
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Old 25th October 2006, 07:11 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by hcmom View Post
[color=DarkOrchid]

Even if it weren't jerky, it's rude and uncalled for to insult someone who is merely giving an account of something they admit was strange and difficult to believe.
I don't agree. If they're stupid enough to believe nonsense....
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Old 25th October 2006, 07:25 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by RSLancastr View Post
He basically said "Here's a weird thing which happened to me a long time ago. I have no explanation for it. I have no proof of it. Make of it what you will."
Actually, what he said was -

Originally Posted by snagswolf View Post
That said, I've had one occurrence in my life that can't be explained by any science, coincidence, physics, etc.

...snip...

But I know what I saw, and because of that, I personally know there are things we don't yet fully understand.
Someone saying "Here's something weird, what do you think?" will be happily wellcomed and talked to. Someone coming to a skeptical forum and saying "This happened and it was supernatural, so there!" will be ridiculed, and deservedly so, especially if they do so while claiming to be a skeptic.
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Old 25th October 2006, 07:34 AM   #49
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Snagswolf seems to have fallen silent on this issue. It's a shame because I really would like to know more about the facts of the case. I only hope he hasn't stopped posting out of intimidation or fear of ridicule.
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Old 25th October 2006, 07:35 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Actually, what he said was -

Someone saying "Here's something weird, what do you think?" will be happily wellcomed and talked to. Someone coming to a skeptical forum and saying "This happened and it was supernatural, so there!" will be ridiculed, and deservedly so, especially if they do so while claiming to be a skeptic.
Ridiculous.

How many of us have come to this forum being, for the most part, skeptics, but still hanging on to some nonsensical belief? For some of us, it takes time to be able to critically reevaluate all of our experiences, no matter how much they excite our imaginations.

I think my opinion of this forum would have been quite different from the start if I posted something similar to the OP and got blasted like he/she did. Lucky for me, it seems that most of the blowhards and egomaniacs took a few days off at that time.

Hey guys, let's chase off another person who isn't as 'hardcore skeptic' as we are!

Absolutely ridiculous.
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Old 25th October 2006, 07:50 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Ripley Twenty-Nine View Post
Ridiculous.

How many of us have come to this forum being, for the most part, skeptics, but still hanging on to some nonsensical belief? For some of us, it takes time to be able to critically reevaluate all of our experiences, no matter how much they excite our imaginations.

I think my opinion of this forum would have been quite different from the start if I posted something similar to the OP and got blasted like he/she did. Lucky for me, it seems that most of the blowhards and egomaniacs took a few days off at that time.

Hey guys, let's chase off another person who isn't as 'hardcore skeptic' as we are!

Absolutely ridiculous.
Go back and read what I wrote, then tell me how any of that pointless rant was even related to my post.
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Old 25th October 2006, 08:16 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Go back and read what I wrote, then tell me how any of that pointless rant was even related to my post.
First of all I apologize if I gave the impression that my post was entirely directed at you. It wasn't; You just happened to make the last of such posts that I quoted.

But as far as what I said relating to your post. You state that anyone making claims of something being supernatural should be 'ridiculed, and deservedly so'. My point was that many of us came to this board believing in one thing or another that was supernatural, though many of us, through civil discussion have been able to re-evaluate our beliefs.

If I was 'ridiculed, and deservedly so' when I started, I may not have stayed around long enough to have a chance of doing so.

Am I misunderstanding your point?
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Old 25th October 2006, 12:04 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by hcmom View Post
in a non-combative manner
Stating that one believes in a miracle, regardless of what evidence or logic anyone else presents, is in and of itself combative.

It's like telling someone they're a ho: it doesn't matter what words you use, or how polite your tone, it's still an insult.

To assert that all science is merely guesswork, and that anyone who believes in empirical fact is a uneducated fool, is combative.
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Old 25th October 2006, 12:10 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Ripley Twenty-Nine View Post
civil discussion
You may note that the poster simply ignored my contribution to the discussion. And yet I was the only one to say, "Let us assume you are right."

The failure to respond to that line of inquiry is evidence that the original poster was not actually interested in discussion, polite or otherwise. The people who responded to the OP with ridicule and laughter should not be faulted for their prescience.

Of course, I knew I would be ignored; but I wanted an opportunity to speechify.

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Old 25th October 2006, 12:16 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
I think I'm in love. Will you father my children?
Hehe. I met my wife because of what she said on a message board: "Ethics should be derived from first principles..."

I highly recommend this approach. Although you should check the origin of the poster a little more carefully than I did. Australia is a long way to go for a first date.

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Old 25th October 2006, 12:18 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It's a shame because I really would like to know more about the facts of the case.
I would also like a response to my post, where I point out that God giving out a special exemption is just a reminder of all the times God does not give out a special exemption.
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Old 25th October 2006, 12:38 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
To assert that all science is merely guesswork, and that anyone who believes in empirical fact is a uneducated fool, is combative.
(Bolding is mine)

You sure read a lot more into what he's said than I have...
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Old 25th October 2006, 12:50 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by hcmom View Post
(Bolding is mine)

You sure read a lot more into what he's said than I have...
That happens a lot with Yahzi.
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Old 25th October 2006, 05:08 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
You may note that the poster simply ignored my contribution to the discussion. And yet I was the only one to say, "Let us assume you are right."

The failure to respond to that line of inquiry is evidence that the original poster was not actually interested in discussion, polite or otherwise. The people who responded to the OP with ridicule and laughter should not be faulted for their prescience.

Of course, I knew I would be ignored; but I wanted an opportunity to speechify.

I considered that it would be rude for me to apologize for starting the topic, and then continue to discuss it.

However, to respond to your specific post, I never claimed in this thread that God was responsible. Describing the situation where it happened was required to tell the story.

And to answer some of the other questions, I'll find out more specific information from my sister and give you all an update when I do. If I do find out anything where I've remembered incorrectly, or left out something that could possibly explain it, I'll let you know.
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Old 25th October 2006, 05:58 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by snagswolf View Post
And to answer some of the other questions, I'll find out more specific information from my sister and give you all an update when I do. If I do find out anything where I've remembered incorrectly, or left out something that could possibly explain it, I'll let you know.
I would be very glad to know the answers to the following: How severe was the club foot deformity at birth? What treatment if any had the child had from birth to the date of the revival? What was the state of her deformity immediately preceeding the healing? What treatment was she receiving at the time of the healing? What was the state of her deformity immediately after the healing? What treatments if any did she have immediately after and going forward? Did the state of her deformity change for the worse or better after the immediate post-healing period? What was the state of her condition into adulthood?

You know, the usual stuff.
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Old 25th October 2006, 10:20 PM   #61
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Funny becuase I read that and the first thing that popped into my head was

"I can hear the coocoo's calling from the coocooberry tree" from Man of la mancha
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Old 26th October 2006, 01:04 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by hcmom View Post
You sure read a lot more into what he's said than I have...
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." ~ George Bernard Shaw.

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Old 26th October 2006, 01:06 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by snagswolf View Post
I considered that it would be rude for me to apologize for starting the topic, and then continue to discuss it.
Nobody expects you to apologize for starting the topic.

We are complaining because you won't finish it - because you will not either a) provide evidence, or b) respond appropriatly to the lack of evidence.

Quote:
However, to respond to your specific post, I never claimed in this thread that God was responsible.
You didn't not claim God was responsible; you did mention the presence of a religious figure.

Nonetheless, my post stands, whether it was God or random fate. It remains unfair and destructive of all hope and meaning.

Quote:
If I do find out anything where I've remembered incorrectly,
Given the staggering significance of your experience, one would think you would have done so in the first place.

"Ya, I saw Jesus the other day. At least, I think it was Jesus. He had holes in his hands and feet, and was walking on water. But I was late for the opening of "Star Wars," so I didn't stop to check."
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Old 26th October 2006, 02:36 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." ~ George Bernard Shaw.

That is, of course, presuming accurate observation...
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Old 26th October 2006, 09:27 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
That happens a lot with Yahzi.
See, THAT can be easily considered combative. Feel free to give him hell, Yahzi.
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Old 26th October 2006, 09:39 AM   #66
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Talking

Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
"Ya, I saw Jesus the other day. At least, I think it was Jesus. He had holes in his hands and feet, and was walking on water. But I was late for the opening of "Star Wars," so I didn't stop to check."
Depending on which Episode and Edition of Star Wars we are talking about, I cna see how this person would just have their priorities set straight. They wouldn't get an argument from me.
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:54 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by hcmom View Post
That is, of course, presuming accurate observation...
The truth of this proposition is within our power to test. We need merely observe Snagswolf's responses. Eventually he will reveal his utter contempt for everyone who does not believe his stories without evidence, and then we will know I was right. (Eventually being within two or three pages.)

They always do.

Snagswolf has already declared the impossibility of changing his/her mind over an impossible claim. All that is missing is the contempt for people who do not share his impossible belief. And that will follow, soon enough.

Last edited by Yahzi; 26th October 2006 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 26th October 2006, 12:41 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
Eventually he will reveal his utter contempt for everyone who does not believe his stories without evidence, and then we will know I was right.
I seem to recall him saying "I wouldn't believe me either", which sounds pretty far from contempt if you ask me.

But like you said, we will see.
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Old 26th October 2006, 12:58 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
The truth of this proposition is within our power to test. We need merely observe Snagswolf's responses. Eventually he will reveal his utter contempt for everyone who does not believe his stories without evidence, and then we will know I was right. (Eventually being within two or three pages.)

They always do.

Snagswolf has already declared the impossibility of changing his/her mind over an impossible claim. All that is missing is the contempt for people who do not share his impossible belief. And that will follow, soon enough.
I don't think it will turn out like that. He seems like a somewhat reasonable and nice person, albeit a magical thinker, therefore I wish he would try to participate in the thread, we might actually achieve something.
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Old 26th October 2006, 02:00 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
The truth of this proposition is within our power to test. We need merely observe Snagswolf's responses. Eventually he will reveal his utter contempt for everyone who does not believe his stories without evidence, and then we will know I was right. (Eventually being within two or three pages.)
What happens if this thread doesn't make it another two or three pages? I'll confess to an absurd amount of tenaciousness in order to win an argument, but I don't think I have it in me to make sure to post enough here to stretch it out that long by myself.

We'll have to wait and see I guess.

Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
Snagswolf has already declared the impossibility of changing his/her mind over an impossible claim. All that is missing is the contempt for people who do not share his impossible belief. And that will follow, soon enough.
I've now reread all the posts snagswolf has made here, and the closest I can find to him declaring the impossibility of his mind was:

Originally Posted by snagswolf View Post
Two reasons. I don't need a affidavit to convince me, and I'm not here to convince you.
which to me says he's convinced, not that it's not possible to change his mind.

To you those might seem like the same thing, but here's an example of the difference --

Right now, I am convinced that snagswolf isn't going to turn out to be a werewolf, (Jekyll and Hyde would be more accurate, but not as punny...) and start spewing distain toward non-believers. However, if in the next two or three pages he does, I will change my mind.
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Old 26th October 2006, 03:13 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by snagswolf View Post
And to answer some of the other questions, I'll find out more specific information from my sister and give you all an update when I do.
So, you'll ask your sister to ask her boyfriend to ask his uncle to clarify this supposed miracle that happened to his child 33 years ago? Great! I was beginning to think we would never get to the bottom of this.
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Old 26th October 2006, 03:17 PM   #72
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Do you like TV shows?

Watch the episode of "House" entitled "House vs. God".

http://www.tv.com/house/house-vs.-go...4/summary.html

Totally fictional, but with many practical applications
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:19 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by hcmom View Post
What happens if this thread doesn't make it another two or three pages?
I win by default?



Quote:
Right now, I am convinced that snagswolf isn't going to turn out to be a werewolf,
I hope you're right.

But, I'm pretty sure he's happy with his belief. And means we have to be the enemy, so he can keep his belief. So I am guessing we wind up the enemy...
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:37 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
I win by default?

Well that's not exactly how I was seeing it...


Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
But, I'm pretty sure he's happy with his belief. And means we have to be the enemy, so he can keep his belief.
Either you have had horrid luck with meeting reasonable people in your life, or you don't even see things in black and white only, you see them in black or white only.
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JeffWagg> hcmom, you can feel that way if you want, but you're quite innocent.
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:43 PM   #75
hcmom
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Originally Posted by hcmom View Post
I'll confess to an absurd amount of tenaciousness in order to win an argument...
It has occurred to me that I could simply send him a PM, and sweet-talk him and tell him I agree with him...
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JeffWagg> hcmom, you can feel that way if you want, but you're quite innocent.
Curnir> Hcmom. taking reality into a wholly new direction

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Old 26th October 2006, 11:52 PM   #76
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by Old man View Post
I took it to mean the boyfriend's uncle had an uncle with a young daughter, so I thought there was even more separation than you did.

But, your interpretation makes 'boyfriend' the cousin of 'child', and since many families are very close, the OP may very well have had enough of contact with her.
I reached that same conclusion the first time I read it, but I looked again and think I have it right. I notice snags hasn't answered that point yet.
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Old 27th October 2006, 06:31 AM   #77
Larry Lovage
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I really think that was a misplaced comma, but snag will tell us.

For all we know, snagswolf will come back and say, "It was all a dream, my sister has no memory of it and her boyfriend never had a 5 year old cousin".

As a n00b here myself, I'd better explain where I'm coming from. I'm a hard nosed atheistic deterministic skeptic. However, I came into this thread because I too had one brush with what was apparently paranormal. I have been somewhat disappointed by the attitudes shown here. My point is that, I certainly don't have any evidence for what happened to me, since it was inside my head. But I'd hate to think that I would be barred from even posting my story on JREF simply on that basis. It strikes me that even if s/he didn't say so, snagswolf might well welcome a rational explanation for the experience.
Originally Posted by Yahzi
But, I'm pretty sure he's happy with his belief. And means we have to be the enemy, so he can keep his belief. So I am guessing we wind up the enemy...
I'm pretty happy with my belief, too. I believe something happened to me for which there is no current scientific explanation (though I have several hypotheses myself). I believe that there may one day be a scientific explanation for what happened to me. I believe that what happened to me really happened. I trust that my personal beliefs in my personal experience does not in and of themselves make me enemies here.
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Old 27th October 2006, 06:49 AM   #78
fls
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Originally Posted by Larry Lovage View Post
I believe something happened to me for which there is no current scientific explanation (though I have several hypotheses myself). I believe that there may one day be a scientific explanation for what happened to me. I believe that what happened to me really happened. I trust that my personal beliefs in my personal experience does not in and of themselves make me enemies here.
What exactly does "for which there is no current scientific explanation" mean, anyway?

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Old 27th October 2006, 12:28 PM   #79
Ripley Twenty-Nine
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Originally Posted by Larry Lovage View Post
I trust that my personal beliefs in my personal experience does not in and of themselves make me enemies here.
You may trust that fact, but I don't believe you'd be correct in assuming that.
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Old 28th October 2006, 07:37 AM   #80
osmosis
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Originally Posted by Larry Lovage View Post
I trust that my personal beliefs in my personal experience does not in and of themselves make me enemies here.
I can't speak for anyone else in particular, although skeptics often think alike on certain issues, but I am nobody's enemy simply because of what they do or don't believe. It boils down to how reasonable and rational a person is; not what their beliefs are per se, but their reasons for having those beliefs.

Even if they have the worst possible reasons, I am not their enemy, I just think less of them and tend not to listen to them.
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