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Old 19th January 2021, 02:17 PM   #1401
Reformed Offlian
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post

That would mean gravitons also shed energy. Which means... lots more reserve energy in the "background field".
If by "lots" you mean "about 19 orders of magnitude less than you need". There aren't any hidden pots of energy for you to use here.

Last edited by Reformed Offlian; 19th January 2021 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 19th January 2021, 03:44 PM   #1402
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And you still don't understand why this isn't synonymous with photons being spherical waves.

I'll make it simple for you. Hydrogen 2p to 1s transitions, for example, are dipole transitions. The radiated field must therefore be a dipole as well. Dipole fields are not spherically symmetric.
Like I said, I'll gladly retract the claim.

It's irrelevant to the production of redshifts, which is demonstrated in one dimension anyways.
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Old 19th January 2021, 03:46 PM   #1403
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Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian View Post
If by "lots" you mean "about 19 orders of magnitude less than you need". There aren't any hidden pots of energy for you to use here.
That's fine with me. I'm just interested in how the math works out for the conditions given by the standard model, and then compare what changes, if anything, when the JWST turns on.
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Old 19th January 2021, 04:24 PM   #1404
Reality Check
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Exclamation More ignorance about science and the Hubble tension

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
There are +4 error bars. The very next line of your message. ...
More ignorance about science and the Hubble tension from Mike Helland.

Seemingly persistent ignorance of the existence of the Measured values of the Hubble constant article.
  • Otherwise he would know that
  • There are measurements of the Hubble constant from non-CMB sources that match the CMB measurements as I listed.
  • Some of these measurements do not overlap late universe (supernova) measurements that have converged to ~ 73 km/s/Mpc.
"This isn't really a measurement" ignorance because a paper uses data and which is what scientific papers do! They use data to test models.
"68% confidence. Is that enough?" ignorance. 1 standard deviation (68% confidence) is a standard for error bars.
"This ones kinda old" fantasy - the paper is only 4 years old.
A promise to invalidly cherry pick only the the Hubble constant measurements when all of them are listed in the Wikipedia article. !
"Yeah, was that this week?" and then an ignorant citation of Constant confusion: New studies deepen mystery of universe’s expansion from July 16, 2019 . Yet another indication that he has never read or understood Measured values of the Hubble constant which lists the dates of publication of the measurements.
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Old 19th January 2021, 04:31 PM   #1405
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
More ignorance about science and the Hubble tension from Mike Helland.

Seemingly persistent ignorance of the existence of the Measured values of the Hubble constant article.
  • Otherwise he would know that
  • There are measurements of the Hubble constant from non-CMB sources that match the CMB measurements as I listed.
  • Some of these measurements do not overlap late universe (supernova) measurements that have converged to ~ 73 km/s/Mpc.
"This isn't really a measurement" ignorance because a paper uses data and which is what scientific papers do! They use data to test models.
"68% confidence. Is that enough?" ignorance. 1 standard deviation (68% confidence) is a standard for error bars.
"This ones kinda old" fantasy - the paper is only 4 years old.
A promise to invalidly cherry pick only the the Hubble constant measurements when all of them are listed in the Wikipedia article. !
"Yeah, was that this week?" and then an ignorant citation of Constant confusion: New studies deepen mystery of universe’s expansion from July 16, 2019 . Yet another indication that he has never read or understood Measured values of the Hubble constant which lists the dates of publication of the measurements.
Like I said, you are right. There are other measurements of Hubble's constant. Good point.

And, if its worth anything, BAO measurements are based on the same conditions that make the CMB:

"In cosmology, baryon acoustic oscillations (BAO) are fluctuations in the density of the visible baryonic matter (normal matter) of the universe, caused by acoustic density waves in the primordial plasma of the early universe."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryon...c_oscillations
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Old 19th January 2021, 04:33 PM   #1406
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Exclamation Persisting in ignorance about the CMB being local, effective versus minimum, etc.

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
My intent was not to judge Ziggurat, but I'm sure he/she is grateful for you protecting them...
A "protecting them" lie when I did not "protect" anyone. I stated what we have seen in this thread from Mike Helland.
Persisting in ignorance about the CMB being local, effective versus minimum, Hubble tension, etc.
Quote:
On the other hand, you have shown that your understanding of this topic is very low.
We have the ignorance of suggesting and seemingly still believing that the CMB is local! And so far still believing is !
We have the ignorance of believing that the word "effective" means "minimum" (authors calculated effective temperatures of starlight and cosmic rays).
We have ignorance about the Hubble tension which does not show that either "late universe" (basically supernova)) or "early universe" (CMB, gravitational waves, baryon acoustic oscillations) measurements are wrong.

More ignorance with "literally dropping bits of energy into space" nonsense. Energy is not a physical thing - it is a measure of the ability to do work.
More ignorance with "photon's shed energy" which is a tired light theory (no matter what you imagine the cause to be) which have been debunked,
Mike Helland is repeating irrelevant questions when he knows the answers to derail from supporting his ATM fantasy.
A graphic from your GitHub site that lies about "predications of the CBR", Mike Helland.
A misleading or ignorant table of cherry picked Hubble constants, Mike Helland
Have you discarded your totally wrong idea that the CMB is local, Mike Helland (so far no answer)?
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Old 19th January 2021, 04:41 PM   #1407
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
I asked a question and got an answer. Gravitational field seems to be the popular answer given.

The conversation has moved past that.


Quote:
You are right, the list of predictions does not include the observed result. I recant the image.

Quote:
For the third time, you're right. There are more measurements. I retract my claims.

Quote:
[/quote]

The CMB can't be as I described, given the amount of light in the universe based on the current model.
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Old 19th January 2021, 04:42 PM   #1408
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
If If space is not expanding, and there was no CMB, there would be no primordial plasma
An ignorant fantasy irrelevant to my list of 3 measurements of the Hubble constant.
There is an overwhelming physical evidence that the universe is expanding.
The CMB exists ! We measure a microwave background with physical properties matching it being emitted from a hot dense universe (temperature, perfect black body spectrum, power spectrum, change in temperature with distance), evidence of travelling thru galaxy clusters).
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Old 19th January 2021, 04:48 PM   #1409
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
An ignorant fantasy irrelevant to my list of 3 measurements of the Hubble constant.
You're too kind.

Quote:
There is an overwhelming physical evidence that the universe is expanding.
The CMB exists ! We measure a microwave background with physical properties matching it being emitted from a hot dense universe (temperature, perfect black body spectrum, power spectrum, change in temperature with distance), evidence of travelling thru galaxy clusters).
Agreed.
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Old 19th January 2021, 04:53 PM   #1410
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Exclamation Mike Helland condenses his "CMB is local" fantasy into Local Bubble idiocy

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
...It's the minimum temp it would cool to given that radiation around. ...
The CMB must be he heat our local bubble.
Which we call the effective temperature of starlight which is unrelated to the real measured temperature of the CMB.
Mike Helland condenses his "CMB is local" fantasy into Local Bubble idiocy !
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Old 19th January 2021, 04:59 PM   #1411
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Which we call the effective temperature of starlight which is unrelated to the real measured temperature of the CMB.
What are the odds of that? Being equal but unrelated?

Does that happen often in science?
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:07 PM   #1412
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Exclamation Another 2 fantasies from Mike Helland

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
Ignoring the CMB here for a bit, just talking about the temperature things would cool to, in the ISM that would be 2.8 K, and in the IGM, it would be less.
Another fantasy (things in the ISM cool to 2.8 K) from Mike Helland.
Another fantasy (things in the IGM cool to < 2.8 K) from Mike Helland.

Interstellar medium. Anyone who can read that the ISM has temperatures that start at 10 K in molecular clouds and go up. The intergalactic medium is hotter at 100,000 K.

P.S. This emphasizes how idiotic it is to cite Thermal (non-microwave background) temperature predictions when they do not include the ISM or IGM for their objects cooling in space.
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:09 PM   #1413
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
What are the odds of that? Being equal but unrelated?

Does that happen often in science?
Good point. The universe must be nestled in a hyder-dimensional liquid helium bath.
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:13 PM   #1414
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Another fantasy (things in the ISM cool to 2.8 K) from Mike Helland.
Another fantasy (things in the IGM cool to < 2.8 K) from Mike Helland.

Interstellar medium. Anyone who can read that the ISM has temperatures that start at 10 K in molecular clouds and go up. The intergalactic medium is hotter at 100,000 K.

P.S. This emphasizes how idiotic it is to cite Thermal (non-microwave background) temperature predictions when they do not include the ISM or IGM for their objects cooling in space.
Looks like you're right again. Thanks.
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:14 PM   #1415
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Exclamation An ignorant fantasy that "discarded into space" = (1) transferred to a field

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
It looks like there's 3 ways answers to the conservation of energy question in expanding space:

1. energy is transferred to the gravitational field
2. the energy put into expanding the universe equals the energy lost by redshifts, thus conserved
3. it's not conserved

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startsw...h=518c9e94891b

In my hypothesis, energy that is redshifted away from the photon is discarded into space, so (1) transferred to a field.
An ignorant fantasy that "discarded into space" = (1) transferred to a field from Mike Helland.
A gravitational field is not space. It is a field emitted by mass.
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:14 PM   #1416
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Good point. The universe must be nestled in a hyder-dimensional liquid helium bath.
I doubt that.

But if its not a coincidence, then there would be a relationship.
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:15 PM   #1417
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
An ignorant fantasy that "discarded into space" = (1) transferred to a field from Mike Helland.
A gravitational field is not space. It is a field emitted by mass.
I've been wrong about a lot of things, but emitting a field doesn't sound right to me.
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:18 PM   #1418
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
I doubt that.

But if its not a coincidence, then there would be a relationship.
But you think it's a coincidence.
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:20 PM   #1419
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Exclamation Mike Helland shows that he is ignorant about what photons are

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
The duality as I understand it is that they travel like a wave but interacting like particle.
Mike Helland shows that he is ignorant about what photons are .
Whether photons act as waves or particles depends on the measurement being made. The double slit experiment shows that photons are waves (there is an interference pattern) until which slit they pass through is measured when they act as particles (no interference pattern).
Wave-particle duality is a property of all quantum particles.

Last edited by Reality Check; 19th January 2021 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:31 PM   #1420
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
But you think it's a coincidence.
In the standard model, yes.

The CMB was a specific temperature at a specific time in the past, and redshifted to perfectly match our specific temperature.

In the decelerating photon hypothesis, space doesn't expand, so there was no dense fireball in the beginning, and the CMB would have to be something else.

It would have to be the energy redshifted away [from] photons, coming back as more photons.

The temperature it radiates back at, in the hypothesis, would be related to the temperature of its surroundings.

Last edited by Mike Helland; 19th January 2021 at 05:35 PM. Reason: []
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:37 PM   #1421
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Exclamation More Mike Helland ignorance about the double slit experiment

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
If there is matter between a photon detector and a photons source, the detector detects interference caused by the matter between the detector and the source.
More Mike Helland ignorance about the double slit experiment where the interference pattern is related to light wavelength and distance between slits. As I recall, the experiment is also done in air and in vacuum.
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:40 PM   #1422
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
More Mike Helland ignorance about the double slit experiment where the interference pattern is related to light wavelength and distance between slits. As I recall, the experiment is also done in air and in vacuum.
You got me there.

I take back anything I said about the motion of a photon in more than direction.
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:48 PM   #1423
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Exclamation Idiotic questions about a beam of light from Mike Helland

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
If I have a flash light, and shine it at a wall:
...
Idiotic questions about a beam of light from Mike Helland to derail from his ATM fantasy.
idiotic because he does not state how the flash light generated the light beam.
Idiotic because hecd2 wrote about lasers which are not flash lights .
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:52 PM   #1424
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Idiotic questions about a beam of light from Mike Helland to derail from his ATM fantasy.
idiotic because he does not state how the flash light generated the light beam.
Idiotic because hecd2 wrote about lasers which are not flash lights .
Yep.

We can keep going on about how I was wrong about the direction of a photon in three dimensions. But I really don't see the point.
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:54 PM   #1425
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Exclamation Does not know that the double slit experiment can be done with single photons

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
*EDIT* It also travels through both slits
Mike Helland does not know that the double slit experiment can be done with single photons !

Double-slit experiment is yet another Wikipedia page he has never read or understood.
Quote:
An important version of this experiment involves single particles. Sending particles through a double-slit apparatus one at a time results in single particles appearing on the screen, as expected. Remarkably, however, an interference pattern emerges when these particles are allowed to build up one by one (see the adjacent image). This demonstrates the wave–particle duality, which states that all matter exhibits both wave and particle properties: the particle is measured as a single pulse at a single position, while the wave describes the probability of absorbing the particle at a specific place on the screen.[26] This phenomenon has been shown to occur with photons, electrons, atoms and even some molecules, including buckyballs.[27][28][29][30][31]
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Old 19th January 2021, 05:56 PM   #1426
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Mike Helland does not know that the double slit experiment can be done with single photons !
I do know that.

Photons emitted individually still add up to an interference pattern.

Do you think the photon travels through one slit?

I think this bot is broken.
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Old 19th January 2021, 06:09 PM   #1427
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
I recant the image. ... I retract my claims...The CMB can't be as I described, given the amount of light in the universe based on the current model.
A couple or maybe 3 retractions from Mike Helland.
He was given reasons why the CMB cannot be local two days ago and ignored them. Why Mike Helland's "CMB is local (produced by the Milky Way)" idea is totally wrong.

I will believe the retraction when your web page is updated so "The CMB indicates a hot past" does not have that image or table. Make it clear that the CMB cannot be local (feel free to us e science in my post) and so cannot be related to the Milky Way..

Last edited by Reality Check; 19th January 2021 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 19th January 2021, 06:17 PM   #1428
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
What are the odds of that?
Irrelevant. The evidence remains that the CMB is cosmic, not local.
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Old 19th January 2021, 06:22 PM   #1429
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
In the standard model, yes.
I mean the temperature of liquid helium matching the temperature of the CMB, you think that is a coincidence.
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Old 19th January 2021, 06:23 PM   #1430
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
I've been wrong about a lot of things, but emitting a field doesn't sound right to me.
I could go through the physics I learned many years ago during gaining a MSc. but Google and Wikipedia exist !
Simply put, a field is the assignment of scalar or vector quantities to points in space. Space is thus not a field, just like a foundation is not a house.
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Old 19th January 2021, 06:31 PM   #1431
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I mean the temperature of liquid helium matching the temperature of the CMB, you think that is a coincidence.
If it were exactly 2.7 K that would be a coincidence, I guess.

Liquid hydrogen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_hydrogen
33 K

Liquid Helium
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_helium
4 K
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Old 19th January 2021, 06:37 PM   #1432
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
In the standard model, yes.

The CMB was a specific temperature at a specific time in the past, and redshifted to perfectly match our specific temperature.
Oh dear, Mike Helland, back to displays of ignorance about the mainstream you are trying to argue against!
The standard model starts with the overwhelming physical evidence that the universe is expanding. That means the early universe was a hot dense plasma whose temperature can be calculated. As the universe expands, the temperature of the plasma falls until at an specific temperature neutral atoms form, photons are freed and that is the CMB. The CMB "cools" as the universe expands until today it is at 2.7 K.
The standard model says there is no coincidence because "perfectly match our specific temperature" is your fantasy. You know that the ISM and IGM are over 10 K.
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Old 19th January 2021, 06:45 PM   #1433
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Oh dear, Mike Helland, back to displays of ignorance about the mainstream you are trying to argue against!
The standard model starts with the overwhelming physical evidence that the universe is expanding. That means the early universe was a hot dense plasma whose temperature can be calculated. As the universe expands, the temperature of the plasma falls until at an specific temperature neutral atoms form, photons are freed and that is the CMB. The CMB "cools" as the universe expands until today it is at 2.7 K.
Which is coincidentally close to the 2.8 K prediction of effective temperature by Regener in 1933.

Quote:
The standard model says there is no coincidence because "perfectly match our specific temperature" is your fantasy. You know that the ISM and IGM are over 10 K.
Is the ISM at 10 K everywhere?

Lemme guess. That's an irrelevant lie fantasy?
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Old 19th January 2021, 06:47 PM   #1434
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
I do know that.

Photons emitted individually still add up to an interference pattern.

Do you think the photon travels through one slit?
A second look at the "*EDIT* It also travels through both slits" posts shows it is actually about your idiotic flashlight scenario and idiotic question.

So you know about the double slit experiment which makes your question:
Mike Helland is asking irrelevant questions when he knows the answers to derail from supporting his ATM fantasy.
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Old 19th January 2021, 06:52 PM   #1435
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
A second look at the "*EDIT* It also travels through both slits" posts shows it is actually about your idiotic flashlight scenario and idiotic question.

So you know about the double slit experiment which makes your question:
Mike Helland is asking irrelevant questions when he knows the answers to derail from supporting his ATM fantasy.
I know that I think the photon travels through both slits.

You said that's an idiotic fantasy.

So what do you think? It goes through one slit?

I can't know the answer to what you think until you tell me. I'm not a read minder, amigo.
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Old 19th January 2021, 06:52 PM   #1436
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
Which is coincidentally close to the 2.8 K prediction of effective temperature by Regener in 1933.
So what? We agree that this is not a CMB temperature and the values are a coincidence . There is probably an experiment in a lab here on Earth with a real temperature of 2.7 K. Is that significant ?

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
Is the ISM at 10 K everywhere?

Lemme guess. That's an irrelevant lie fantasy?
Wrong. That is ignorance or inability to read Wikipedia, and probably
Mike Helland is asking irrelevant questions when he knows the answers to derail from supporting his ATM fantasy.
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Old 19th January 2021, 06:54 PM   #1437
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
We agree that this is not a CMB temperature and the values are a coincidence .
Indeed.
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Old 19th January 2021, 07:03 PM   #1438
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
I know that I think the photon travels through both slits.

You said that's an idiotic fantasy.
You asked questions about your flashlight scenario. I posted that the questions were idiotic. You have replied to a post where I repeated that the questions were idiotic.
You thinking that a photon passes through both slits is a different matter. This is either Mike Helland is asking irrelevant questions when he knows the answers to derail from supporting his ATM fantasy. or a display of ignorance about the double slit experiment.

Last edited by Reality Check; 19th January 2021 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 19th January 2021, 08:39 PM   #1439
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
You asked questions about your flashlight scenario. I posted that the questions were idiotic.
Noted.

Disregard anything I said about photons in 3D.
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Old 19th January 2021, 09:06 PM   #1440
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
What are the odds of that? Being equal but unrelated?
They are not equal.

Quote:
Does that happen often in science?
Lots of things in science produce similar but not identical values.
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