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Old 19th May 2018, 07:40 PM   #41
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
And the pyramids?

Sure, the Mother Church sought after knowledge and engineering which was deemed useful for expanding the church's power, control, and especially the size of it's cathedrals. Power and control which was used primarily to crush undesired knowledge and innovation.

Still, I suppose it's good in a way that you are intent on lifting the Sagan curse from the Mother Church's head.

But talk is cheap. How do you feel about stem cell research? How about genetic engineering?
Good point, Pyramids were also religious structures, then eclipsed by the great Cathedrals of Europe which were not exceeded until approximately 600 years later.

Sagan not only ignored actual progress following the collapse of Rome in the West but also the achievements of the Eastern empire and of course Islam. As I have said elsewhere, if we did not have religion, we would probably be emerging from the hunter gatherer stage.

Genetic engineering? I am all for it, thanks Abbot Gregor Mendel!
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Old 19th May 2018, 10:18 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
How do you feel about stem cell research?
NO religion is against stem cell research AFAIK. Some are against exploiting embryos, so they are against abortion and harvesting embryos for embryonic stem cell research. But none are against stem cell research itself. I responded to Thor 2 when he also made that claim, and he clarified that he meant embryonic stem cell research. But why word it as "stem cell research" in the first place?
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Old 19th May 2018, 11:57 PM   #43
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Have you seriously never read the numerous verses in the Bible, the Tora and the Quran preaching against stem cell research?
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Old Yesterday, 02:20 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Genetic engineering? I am all for it, thanks Abbot Gregor Mendel!
Thanks also to the following list (only a selection):
  1. Otto Brunfels (1488–1534): A theologian and botanist from Mainz, Germany. In botany his Herbarum vivae icones helped earn him acclaim as one of the "fathers of botany".
  2. William Turner (c.1508–1568): He is sometimes called the "father of English botany" and was also an ornithologist.
  3. Francis Bacon (1561–1626), a devout Anglican: Considered among the fathers of empiricism and is credited with establishing the inductive method of experimental science via what is called the scientific method today.
  4. Blaise Pascal (1623–1662): Jansenist thinker; well known for Pascal's law (physics), Pascal's theorem (math)
  5. Robert Boyle (1627–1691): Prominent scientist and theologian who argued that the study of science could improve glorification of God. A strong Christian apologist, he is considered one of the most important figures in the history of Chemistry.
  6. Isaac Newton (1643–1727): Prominent scientist during the Scientific Revolution.
  7. Albrecht von Haller (1708–1777): Swiss anatomist, physiologist known as "the father of modern physiology."
  8. Antoine Lavoisier (1743–1794): considered the "father of modern chemistry"
  9. Carl Linnaeus (1707-1778): Swedish botanist, physician, and zoologist, "father of modern taxonomy".
  10. Georges Cuvier (1769–1832): French naturalist and zoologist, sometimes referred to as the "father of paleontology".
  11. Gregor Mendel (1822–1884): Augustinian Abbot who was the "father of modern genetics" (thanks again!)
  12. Max Planck (1858–1947): was a German theoretical physicist whose work on quantum theory won him the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1918
  13. Georges Lemaître (1894–1966): Roman Catholic priest who was first to propose the Big Bang theory.
  14. Francis Collins (born 1950): director of the National Institutes of Health and former director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute.

Thanks to all you pioneers of science. We can only imagine their impact on the people today and those they care about!

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Old Yesterday, 06:17 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Good point, Pyramids were also religious structures, then eclipsed by the great Cathedrals of Europe which were not exceeded until approximately 600 years later.
And what useful purpose did these prodigiously costly religious edifices serve?

The pyramids, along with the cathedrals you mentioned, are all examples of science being subverted for the wasteful aggrandizement of religious and ruling elites.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sagan not only ignored actual progress following the collapse of Rome in the West but also the achievements of the Eastern empire and of course Islam. As I have said elsewhere, if we did not have religion, we would probably be emerging from the hunter gatherer stage.
Those niggardly few achievements came at a snail's pace. It wasn't until religion began to lose some of it's debilitating grip on the human mind that scientific progress accelerated to a pace that was somewhat in line with the capabilities of the human mind.

Scientific progress is not a function of religion, as you would have us believe. Scientific progress is largely a product of people having the time, resources, and freedom of mind and action to devote to scientific investigation.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Genetic engineering? I am all for it, thanks Abbot Gregor Mendel!
Mendel was not a genetic engineer. He worked out the general rules of heredity. He came after the so-called "absurd gap period".

But it is good to know that your religious beliefs do not, for the moment, compel you to stand in the way of stem cell research and genetic engineering.
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Old Yesterday, 08:36 AM   #46
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Interestingly enough, the dark ages slander was created as part of anti~Catholic bigotry by Protestant “historians” in order to celebrate Protestantism and was later stolen by Atheists who failed to note that it was not only completely wrong but also was riddled with extreme bias against Catholics, but also Orthodox, Muslims and other Eastern tradition.

The fact that rank Protestant propaganda is being credulously repeated by antitheists is the height of irony.
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Old Yesterday, 08:48 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Interestingly enough, the dark ages slander was created as part of anti~Catholic bigotry by Protestant “historians” in order to celebrate Protestantism and was later stolen by Atheists who failed to note that it was not only completely wrong but also was riddled with extreme bias against Catholics, but also Orthodox, Muslims and other Eastern tradition.

The fact that rank Protestant propaganda is being credulously repeated by antitheists is the height of irony.
Yeah, I'm sure it sucks being a Catholic. Especially when every little thing that doesn't totally break your way becomes a new "height of irony".

I'm pretty sure one of the real heights of irony was reached when the Catholic Church blessed the nazi regime even as it was committing genocide.
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Old Yesterday, 09:05 AM   #48
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Protestants are theists, so....

Followed by a false Goodwin.
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Old Yesterday, 09:20 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Protestants are theists, so....

Followed by a false Goodwin.
Followed by a lie about a "false Goodwin' (sic).
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Old Yesterday, 09:42 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
The actual reasoning behind this is far more fascinating than mere religion. Many liquor stores in New York are family-owned businesses. Reducing the hours in which alcohol sales are allowed let those shop owners spend that time at home. Unrestricted liquor sales greatly benefit large chains and supermarkets, which are open anyway.

Still, NY was far better than when I lived in Georgia. At exactly 11:59 p.m. Saturday night, the bars turned their lights on and threw you out. The first time it happened, I thought it was a joke.
This is the same reasoning for why you can't sell cars at a dealership on Sunday in Illinois.
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Old Yesterday, 02:38 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
And what useful purpose did these prodigiously costly religious edifices serve?

The pyramids, along with the cathedrals you mentioned, are all examples of science being subverted for the wasteful aggrandizement of religious and ruling elites.



Those niggardly few achievements came at a snail's pace. It wasn't until religion began to lose some of it's debilitating grip on the human mind that scientific progress accelerated to a pace that was somewhat in line with the capabilities of the human mind.

Scientific progress is not a function of religion, as you would have us believe. Scientific progress is largely a product of people having the time, resources, and freedom of mind and action to devote to scientific investigation.



Mendel was not a genetic engineer. He worked out the general rules of heredity. He came after the so-called "absurd gap period".

But it is good to know that your religious beliefs do not, for the moment, compel you to stand in the way of stem cell research and genetic engineering.

Right on Toontown but I would add to the highlighted - "and not having religion contradicting your findings and killing you for them". I guess we don't need to give examples of this.
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Old Yesterday, 02:50 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Right on Toontown but I would add to the highlighted - "and not having religion contradicting your findings and killing you for them". I guess we don't need to give examples of this.


We can hope, but don't count on the highlighted part.
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Old Yesterday, 03:08 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Of course, he was! But all he's learned from being called out on specific accusations is to generalize instead. His generalizations allow him to practice facetiousness like this:







There's no reason why you should believe him!

Why this excessive hostility?

Quote:
The concept of "society" is too abstract in this context! Our market-economy-based societies consist of competing individuals and a state that enforces this condition.
I agree with you that many believers are comforted by religion, but I always find that the alleged joy of religion and all the happy-happy-happy Christian songs look and sound ... well, [i]fake(/I]: as if they're trying much too hard to convince themselves and us that they're happy. I guess that's something they need.
Not to sure about the first paragraph but I think there may be a core of truth in the latter.

How much comfort and happiness people get out of religious belief, compared to how much anxiety and grief, would be difficult to measure and I wonder if anyone has attempted it. We have a number of examples of theists turned atheist who express relief from shedding religion, for example Matt from Atheist Experience and myself, and perhaps there may be others here that can swell this number. On the other hand we have GDon who has gone the other way, but hasn't given us an insight into the happiness quotient experienced. This discussion is somewhat off target to what I originally intended with this thread, but interesting all the same.
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Old Yesterday, 03:17 PM   #54
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Can’t say I am surprised that antitheists repeat debunked theories like the medieval gap
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Old Yesterday, 03:35 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Can’t say I am surprised that antitheists anti-theismists repeat debunked theories like the medieval gap
FTFY once again. You are a slow learner The Big Dog.
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Old Yesterday, 05:07 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Interestingly enough, the dark ages slander was created as part of anti~Catholic bigotry by Protestant “historians” in order to celebrate Protestantism and was later stolen by Atheists who failed to note that it was not only completely wrong but also was riddled with extreme bias against Catholics, but also Orthodox, Muslims and other Eastern tradition.
Looks like the reports of the evils of the Catholic Inquisition came from the same source as well: Protestant propaganda. There are arguments in modern scholarship that in fact that the Inquisitions saved many lives. From here:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2004/...omas-f-madden/
The Inquisition was not born out of desire to crush diversity or oppress people; it was rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. Yes, you read that correctly. Heresy was a crime against the state... uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent assessment of the validity of the charge.

The Catholic Church’s response to this problem was the Inquisition, first instituted by Pope Lucius III in 1184. It was born out of a need to provide fair trials for accused heretics using laws of evidence and presided over by knowledgeable judges. From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and the king and therefore deserved death...

The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule.

Compared to other medieval secular courts, the Inquisition was positively enlightened. Why then are people in general and the press in particular so surprised to discover that the Inquisition did not barbecue people by the millions? First of all, when most people think of the Inquisition today what they are really thinking of is the Spanish Inquisition. No, not even that is correct. They are thinking of the myth of the Spanish Inquisition. Amazingly, before 1530 the Spanish Inquisition was widely hailed as the best run, most humane court in Europe.

Although the Spanish defeated Protestants on the battlefield, they would lose the propaganda war. These were the years when the famous “Black Legend” of Spain was forged. Innumerable books and pamphlets poured from northern presses accusing the Spanish Empire of inhuman depravity and horrible atrocities in the New World. Opulent Spain was cast as a place of darkness, ignorance, and evil.

Protestant propaganda that took aim at the Spanish Inquisition drew liberally from the Black Legend...

The Spanish Inquisition, already established as a bloodthirsty tool of religious persecution, was derided by Enlightenment thinkers as a brutal weapon of intolerance and ignorance.
So it looks like the idea that the Inquisitions killed millions of people is fake news, Medieval style!

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Old Yesterday, 08:23 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Looks like the reports of the evils of the Catholic Inquisition came from the same source as well: Protestant propaganda. There are arguments in modern scholarship that in fact that the Inquisitions saved many lives.
Unless of course you really were a heritic (non-believer), then you were screwed.
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Old Yesterday, 10:24 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
FTFY once again. You are a slow learner The Big Dog.
There is no theism without theists.
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Old Yesterday, 11:25 PM   #59
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Impact of religion on me, my family, and anyone I know?

Nothing at all. Not a jot. Not a single thing ever at all. It's almost as though it doesn't exist. As I've said before, I don't think I know any religious people at all, other than the local priest who is a somewhat-near neighbour.......but I'm not even sure she is religious.

OK, I've thought of something. I have to turn the radio off on Sunday morning when the religious take over Radio 4 for an hour or two.
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Old Yesterday, 11:30 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
.........Genetic engineering? I am all for it, thanks Abbot Gregor Mendel!
You do know that at the time Mendel was alive the only education and study opportunities available anywhere in Germany (yes, Brno was in Germany at the time) were with the church? If you wanted to do science, you had to join the church. Kind of ironic, don't you think?
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Old Today, 01:07 AM   #61
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Raised as a JW, religion played a huge role in my early years.

It kept me socially isolated, with no friends who weren't also JW.

It kept me in an abusive step parent relationship, as when I spoke out I was shaming Jehovah apparently,
It made me complicit in the concealing of a sexual abuse of another child.

I was very lucky to escape( but it cost me my family relationships), but sometimes there's a great benefit in being the black sheep in the family..

It made me the person I am now, and a total atheist.
I am very proud that I survived and am a far better person for it.
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Old Today, 01:08 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Impact of religion on me, my family, and anyone I know?

Nothing at all. Not a jot. Not a single thing ever at all. It's almost as though it doesn't exist. As I've said before, I don't think I know any religious people at all, other than the local priest who is a somewhat-near neighbour.......but I'm not even sure she is religious.

OK, I've thought of something. I have to turn the radio off on Sunday morning when the religious take over Radio 4 for an hour or two.
You have NO idea how jealous I am of that....
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Old Today, 03:26 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
You have NO idea how jealous I am of that....
Absolutely standard story over here.
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Old Today, 07:36 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You do know that at the time Mendel was alive the only education and study opportunities available anywhere in Germany (yes, Brno was in Germany at the time) were with the church? If you wanted to do science, you had to join the church. Kind of ironic, don't you think?
Great point! Christian Churches and Islamic groups created the world's first Universities and were the center for education for a Millennia.
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Old Today, 07:44 AM   #65
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I have a friend in his late 40s who is becoming much more catholic. He is in fact studying to become a deacon. He is the "out and proud" phase where he making an effort to say "god bless" and "his plan" and "feeling his presence" and such.
I am gritting my teeth a lot. It makes me a bit sad too to watch someone descend further into what it took me years to get out of.

That being said, he went through a death of his sister, his kids not turning out to be shining citizens, and a major depression. I am staying well away from any sort of challenging of him.
The most I might do is try to relate my "immersion into" / "recognition of" nature as a spiritual practice not unlike the spiritual practice he is embarking on. When the rubber hits the road though, I don't think that will really work.

Not sure what, if anything, to do.
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Old Today, 08:31 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Great point! Christian Churches and Islamic groups created the world's first Universities and were the center for education for a Millennia.
.....and were the motivation for the world's greatest works of architecture and art. Nobody is disputing that, I don't think. Shame all that energy was wasted on myths, but ho hum.
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Old Today, 08:58 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
I have a friend in his late 40s who is becoming much more catholic. He is in fact studying to become a deacon. He is the "out and proud" phase where he making an effort to say "god bless" and "his plan" and "feeling his presence" and such.
I am gritting my teeth a lot. It makes me a bit sad too to watch someone descend further into what it took me years to get out of.

That being said, he went through a death of his sister, his kids not turning out to be shining citizens, and a major depression. I am staying well away from any sort of challenging of him.
The most I might do is try to relate my "immersion into" / "recognition of" nature as a spiritual practice not unlike the spiritual practice he is embarking on. When the rubber hits the road though, I don't think that will really work.

Not sure what, if anything, to do.
I have a couple of friends in that department: one a Bahai and the other a Seventh-Day Adventist. Both cling to their religion as the bulwark holding them from returning to addictions and self-destruction. So I say nothing because I don't want to injure their fragile peace.

Of course that means I give them a lot of interpersonal distance. We aren't really friends, just amiable acquaintances.

In the past I did tell the Bahai (since he was keen on making a Bahai out of me) why I didn't buy his religion. He then told me I was "arrogant" for not surrendering to the higher power of God and his prophets. So I suspect that even if I took these guys to task, nothing I said would shake their belief, especially since it's so vital to their self-preservation.
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Old Today, 09:03 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
I'm pretty sure one of the real heights of irony was reached when the Catholic Church blessed the nazi regime even as it was committing genocide.
Is that true? I've seen it repeated a few times here and there, but never been able to find a source on it. I can find sources for the Pope of the time condemning the Nazis, as well as the Catholic Church's role in rescuing hundreds of thousands of Jews, which would seem to be the opposite of what you're suggesting.
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Old Today, 09:07 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Looks like the reports of the evils of the Catholic Inquisition came from the same source as well: Protestant propaganda. There are arguments in modern scholarship that in fact that the Inquisitions saved many lives. From here:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2004/...omas-f-madden/
The Inquisition was not born out of desire to crush diversity or oppress people; it was rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. Yes, you read that correctly. Heresy was a crime against the state... uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent assessment of the validity of the charge.

The Catholic Church’s response to this problem was the Inquisition, first instituted by Pope Lucius III in 1184. It was born out of a need to provide fair trials for accused heretics using laws of evidence and presided over by knowledgeable judges. From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and the king and therefore deserved death...

The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule.

Compared to other medieval secular courts, the Inquisition was positively enlightened. Why then are people in general and the press in particular so surprised to discover that the Inquisition did not barbecue people by the millions? First of all, when most people think of the Inquisition today what they are really thinking of is the Spanish Inquisition. No, not even that is correct. They are thinking of the myth of the Spanish Inquisition. Amazingly, before 1530 the Spanish Inquisition was widely hailed as the best run, most humane court in Europe.

Although the Spanish defeated Protestants on the battlefield, they would lose the propaganda war. These were the years when the famous “Black Legend” of Spain was forged. Innumerable books and pamphlets poured from northern presses accusing the Spanish Empire of inhuman depravity and horrible atrocities in the New World. Opulent Spain was cast as a place of darkness, ignorance, and evil.

Protestant propaganda that took aim at the Spanish Inquisition drew liberally from the Black Legend...

The Spanish Inquisition, already established as a bloodthirsty tool of religious persecution, was derided by Enlightenment thinkers as a brutal weapon of intolerance and ignorance.
So it looks like the idea that the Inquisitions killed millions of people is fake news, Medieval style!
Nobody exp...oh, you know the rest.
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Old Today, 09:24 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Impact of religion on me, my family, and anyone I know?

Nothing at all. Not a jot. Not a single thing ever at all. It's almost as though it doesn't exist. As I've said before, I don't think I know any religious people at all, other than the local priest who is a somewhat-near neighbour.......but I'm not even sure she is religious.

OK, I've thought of something. I have to turn the radio off on Sunday morning when the religious take over Radio 4 for an hour or two.
While I don't disagree with your general point that religion here in the UK is far less relevant than it is in the US and some other countries, I think it will have had some limited impact on the majority of people in the UK. Even those who have been lucky enough to attend one of the many schools who ignore the law requiring a daily act of worship, there's no escaping the fact that the House of Lords has an impact on the laws of the nation, and that 26 of the Lords are Bishops. You will also most likely know people who cannot go to the supermarket at 9AM on a Sunday.
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Old Today, 10:05 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
While I don't disagree with your general point that religion here in the UK is far less relevant than it is in the US and some other countries, I think it will have had some limited impact on the majority of people in the UK. Even those who have been lucky enough to attend one of the many schools who ignore the law requiring a daily act of worship, there's no escaping the fact that the House of Lords has an impact on the laws of the nation, and that 26 of the Lords are Bishops. You will also most likely know people who cannot go to the supermarket at 9AM on a Sunday.
And beyond that, it's hard to estimate how much centuries of religious leaders, religion led education, state religion etc. has had an impact on society, traditions, morals/values (at an individual or societal level), language and thereby how we think about and perceive things.
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