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Old 23rd February 2021, 04:18 PM   #201
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
I was hoping no one would jump on that TBH.
If I head down that line of thought... the list gets too long, too quickly.
I can't say I ever own the high road... but I try to keep it in sight.
I've never been that keen on the high road... the sides are too steep, the risk of falling off is greater!
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Old 23rd February 2021, 07:00 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I've never been that keen on the high road... the sides are too steep, the risk of falling off is greater!
You get nose bleeds on the high road.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 07:19 PM   #203
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What is it with all you people going to Scotland?
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Old 23rd February 2021, 07:59 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
What is it with all you people going to Scotland?
It's where we meet our true loves.
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Old 24th February 2021, 03:15 AM   #205
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So, does the average Texan support this deregulation? Do they even understand the factors that caused this mess-up?
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Old 24th February 2021, 05:48 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat View Post
So, does the average Texan support this deregulation? Do they even understand the factors that caused this mess-up?
Yeah its thu libruls and that there pinko green new deal thing. An' bill gates and his 5g vaxines an stuff. Windmill cancer!
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Old 24th February 2021, 01:24 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
We can see a lot from the gutter, right?
All of us do time in the gutter
Dreamers turn to look at the cars
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Old 24th February 2021, 01:25 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat View Post
So, does the average Texan support this deregulation? Do they even understand the factors that caused this mess-up?
No. Yes.

Can't speak for the average Texan though.
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Old 25th February 2021, 06:36 AM   #209
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And here come the lawsuits against Griddy:

A Texas woman sues an electric company after her bill was nearly $10,000

Quote:
A Texas woman has filed a proposed billion-dollar class-action lawsuit against electric company Griddy Energy that alleges the company engaged in unlawful price gouging during last week's statewide winter storm and power outages, according to a statement from the law firm.

Lisa Khoury, a resident of a Houston suburb, claims she was charged a total of $9,546 by Griddy from February 1 to February 19, according to a copy of her bill filed with the lawsuit.

Khoury's average monthly electricity bill before February ranged from $200 to $250, according to the suit.

The suit claims that Griddy "committed price gouging," was negligent when it "failed to shield consumers from excessive electrical bills," and that, by selling electricity at high prices in the middle of the storm, the company was "unjustly enriched."
How the hell was Griddy "unjustly enriched"? They pass on the wholesale price to the customer. They don't make any profit from that. They make their money from the membership fee. They didn't price gouge. The wholesale price was raised to $9 per kwh by regulators.

This is like someone going to a casino and throwing a large amount of money on one spin of the wheel and losing, then suing the casino for cheating them. If you don't understand the rules and risks of the game, don't play!

I'd like to have some sympathy for her and others, but this week I'm not suffering fools gladly.
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Old 25th February 2021, 06:50 AM   #210
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I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves in a situation where either they have to go into deep debt for basic services or risk freezing to death because they live in a failed state.

I don't think her lawsuit has merit. The state of Texas has explicitly written this free-market hellscape scenario into law. What happened to her is no doubt immoral, but seems to be perfectly legal thanks to the right wing ghouls running the state of Texas.
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Old 25th February 2021, 07:47 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves in a situation where either they have to go into deep debt for basic services or risk freezing to death because they live in a failed state.

I don't think her lawsuit has merit. The state of Texas has explicitly written this free-market hellscape scenario into law. What happened to her is no doubt immoral, but seems to be perfectly legal thanks to the right wing ghouls running the state of Texas.
Yeah, she benefited for years with reduced costs according to her contract. If she had paid more up front, then she wouldn't be in this situation.

I wouldn't even call it immoral.

The solution here would be for the state of Texas to provide that emergency assistance to those who got stuck with this. Subsidized loans would allow them to budget their payments, for example.
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Old 25th February 2021, 07:52 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves in a situation where either they have to go into deep debt for basic services or risk freezing to death because they live in a failed state.
Ah, but she was only at risk for the debt because she chose to gamble. Everybody else merely risked freezing to death.
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Old 25th February 2021, 07:54 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Yeah, she benefited for years with reduced costs according to her contract. If she had paid more up front, then she wouldn't be in this situation.

I wouldn't even call it immoral.

The solution here would be for the state of Texas to provide that emergency assistance to those who got stuck with this. Subsidized loans would allow them to budget their payments, for example.
Most states regulate gambling, from a combination of moral principles against it and the understanding that much of the public is simply too stupid to not ruin themselves. They could enact laws to stop people gambling with vital services.
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Old 25th February 2021, 07:59 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Most states regulate gambling, from a combination of moral principles against it and the understanding that much of the public is simply too stupid to not ruin themselves. They could enact laws to stop people gambling with vital services.
It should be none of your business if I ruin myself.
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Old 25th February 2021, 08:20 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It should be none of your business if I ruin myself.
Yeah...but despite your constant recourse of appealing to individual responsibility, real life does not work that way. More often than not, gamblers often drag down others around them with them for no fault of theirs.
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Old 25th February 2021, 08:47 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
We can see a lot from the gutter, right?
The stars perhaps?

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You get nose bleeds on the high road.
But you get there alive.

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
What is it with all you people going to Scotland?
Loch Lomand is quite pleasant.
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Old 25th February 2021, 08:51 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It should be none of your business if I ruin myself.
Agreed...if and only if you then don't demand public assistance. If you go off quietly and starve to death without using any collective resources, time, or energy then it's fine. Although I note that others will still have to spend efforts to dispose of your corpse for hygiene reasons, and wrap up your legal estate. You're always going to be some kind of burden to others, but I appreciate your attempts to minimize it.
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:49 AM   #218
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Agreed...if and only if you then don't demand public assistance. If you go off quietly and starve to death without using any collective resources, time, or energy then it's fine. Although I note that others will still have to spend efforts to dispose of your corpse for hygiene reasons, and wrap up your legal estate. You're always going to be some kind of burden to others, but I appreciate your attempts to minimize it.

If you cant offer public assistance without infringing on others....then don't offer the assistance.
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:01 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If something seems too good to be true (like endowment mortgages) then they likely are.

People signed up to this did so because they believed that they'd be paying less for their electricity over the course of the year. What made them think that there was no risk ?
You assume people saw "no risk" instead of not understanding what the actual risk would be. They may have seen the risk as occasionally paying higher rates, like maybe twice the normal rate. I don't think anyone buying these plans considered the idea that they would be paying a rate that was orders of magnitude higher than normal was possible.

IMO, such things shouldn't be made available to the average consumer.
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:19 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If you cant offer public assistance without infringing on others....then don't offer the assistance.
This is why you live alone on a mountain somewhere, never using anything made and maintained by collective effort and are posting here using telepathy?
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:26 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
This is why you live alone on a mountain somewhere, never using anything made and maintained by collective effort and are posting here using telepathy?
What are you talking about? I will take any mother effer's money if he is giving it away.

I was in the military. I had a policy of never asking my employer where he gets his money.

This is a discussion of what the mother effer (government) should do.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 25th February 2021 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:31 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
You assume people saw "no risk" instead of not understanding what the actual risk would be. They may have seen the risk as occasionally paying higher rates, like maybe twice the normal rate. I don't think anyone buying these plans considered the idea that they would be paying a rate that was orders of magnitude higher than normal was possible.

IMO, such things shouldn't be made available to the average consumer.
Yes, and I have 2 questions.

What did their contracts say before the $9 Kw became the top charge?

And who the hell did make the price-gouging money?
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:39 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, and I have 2 questions.

What did their contracts say before the $9 Kw became the top charge?

And who the hell did make the price-gouging money?
The few energy producers that were able to keep running. It wasnt the company charging the customers making it.
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Old 25th February 2021, 01:04 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What are you talking about? I will take any mother effer's money if he is giving it away.

I was in the military. I had a policy of never asking my employer where he gets his money.

This is a discussion of what the mother effer (government) should do.
That doesn't make much sense. The employer of the military is the government. Just ignoring where the money comes from doesn't mean it comes from nowhere. All government aid or public assistance comes from somewhere, and seen in the right libertarian glare it can thus be said to infringe on someone's desire not to contribute to it.

Your formula, aside from basically saying no government should provide any aid at all, implies that it's all right if shut your eyes and block your ears.
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Old 25th February 2021, 01:15 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
That doesn't make much sense. The employer of the military is the government. Just ignoring where the money comes from doesn't mean it comes from nowhere. All government aid or public assistance comes from somewhere, and seen in the right libertarian glare it can thus be said to infringe on someone's desire not to contribute to it.

Your formula, aside from basically saying no government should provide any aid at all, implies that it's all right if shut your eyes and block your ears.
It is me saying I don't object to operating unethically. The quote is like a mercenary joke.
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Old 25th February 2021, 01:36 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
This is why you live alone on a mountain somewhere, never using anything made and maintained by collective effort and are posting here using telepathy?
It's why libertarianism is utter nonsense.
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Old 25th February 2021, 01:38 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, and I have 2 questions.

What did their contracts say before the $9 Kw became the top charge?

And who the hell did make the price-gouging money?
The answer to the latter would seem to be the owners of the generating systems that remained operating.
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Old 25th February 2021, 01:41 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
It's why libertarianism is utter nonsense.
Which is why we don't have people on this forum, like how this texas situation came about, advocating it is a good idea.
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Old 25th February 2021, 02:14 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves in a situation where either they have to go into deep debt for basic services or risk freezing to death because they live in a failed state.

I don't think her lawsuit has merit. The state of Texas has explicitly written this free-market hellscape scenario into law. What happened to her is no doubt immoral, but seems to be perfectly legal thanks to the right wing ghouls running the state of Texas.
What might come out of the lawsuit is pressure to change the law so that contracts like these simply cannot be made, or have caps on the maximum rate that can be charged. As a consumer, I might have signed such a contract if I believed the rate might go from a few cents per kWH to maybe a 50 cents, but not $9! That's like 100 times the base rate. Imagine gasoline jumping to $230.00 a gallon at the same time your gas tank is empty.
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Old 25th February 2021, 02:29 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
What might come out of the lawsuit is pressure to change the law so that contracts like these simply cannot be made, or have caps on the maximum rate that can be charged. As a consumer, I might have signed such a contract if I believed the rate might go from a few cents per kWH to maybe a 50 cents, but not $9! That's like 100 times the base rate. Imagine gasoline jumping to $230.00 a gallon at the same time your gas tank is empty.
Why must you be protected from being wrong?
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Old 25th February 2021, 03:37 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why must you be protected from being wrong?
Yawn. Your utopia falls apart every time you shop for produce, or buy tested and rated tires for your car. Or do anything that extends your life in part due to safety regulations.
Though I expect undertakers would love it.
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Old 25th February 2021, 04:08 PM   #232
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Yawn. Your utopia falls apart every time you shop for produce, or buy tested and rated tires for your car. Or do anything that extends your life in part due to safety regulations.
Though I expect undertakers would love it.
It is pretty easy to allow someone freedom only to do the things you find acceptable or a good idea.
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Old 25th February 2021, 04:42 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is pretty easy to allow someone freedom only to do the things you find acceptable or a good idea.
Non-responsive. But yeah... you do you.
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Old 25th February 2021, 04:52 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Non-responsive. But yeah... you do you.
The purpose of giving people the freedom to make a choice on their electrical plan is not so they can make a better choice than you can for them. The point is so they can make a worse one.
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Old 25th February 2021, 05:47 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The purpose of giving people the freedom to make a choice on their electrical plan is not so they can make a better choice than you can for them. The point is so they can make a worse one.
No it wasn't. It was so the start-up (co-op?) Griddy could make a profitable business offering an alternative to whatever local power company.
And I doubt they were involved in the spot market speculation that shot fuel (LNG?) from one to two dollars per million BTUs to almost $1000 within days. They were paying that, hence passing it on to the customers (that's not gonna work out so well for them either).

But I was responding to your libertarianism in general, not this event. I do wish you'd nail down those goalposts just once.
Who am I kidding... I'm out.
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Old 25th February 2021, 05:58 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
No it wasn't. It was so the start-up (co-op?) Griddy could make a profitable business offering an alternative to whatever local power company.
And I doubt they were involved in the spot market speculation that shot fuel (LNG?) from one to two dollars per million BTUs to almost $1000 within days. They were paying that, hence passing it on to the customers (that's not gonna work out so well for them either).

But I was responding to your libertarianism in general, not this event. I do wish you'd nail down those goalposts just once.
Who am I kidding... I'm out.
We both agree that regulation would make things better in this scenario.
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Old 25th February 2021, 06:05 PM   #237
Jim_MDP
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
We both agree that regulation would make things better in this scenario.
So you too only want to find acceptable those things which you find acceptable?

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Old 25th February 2021, 06:12 PM   #238
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
So you too only want to find acceptable those things which you find acceptable?

No. I don't base my politics on what things make something better.
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Old 25th February 2021, 06:30 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The answer to the latter would seem to be the owners of the generating systems that remained operating.
Who are they and why didn't all their energy go to their regular customers?

How is it they had energy to free-wheel with? Wouldn't they have the same customers as they normally do except they didn't lose power?

It's not making sense to me.
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Old 25th February 2021, 06:42 PM   #240
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Who are they and why didn't all their energy go to their regular customers?

How is it they had energy to free-wheel with? Wouldn't they have the same customers as they normally do except they didn't lose power?

It's not making sense to me.
I would bet power grid companies had a set of customers they had contracts to provide power or face penalties, and bid the price up to avoid being in non compliance
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