Texas Governor and FOX News Blames Liberals for Power Outages - Page 6

smartcooky · 23rd February 2021, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Jim_MDP

I was hoping no one would jump on that TBH.
If I head down that line of thought... the list gets too long, too quickly.

I can't say I ever own the high road... but I try to keep it in sight.

I've never been that keen on the high road... the sides are too steep, the risk of falling off is greater!

Stacyhs · 23rd February 2021, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

I've never been that keen on the high road... the sides are too steep, the risk of falling off is greater!

You get nose bleeds on the high road.

Regnad Kcin · 23rd February 2021, 07:19 PM

What is it with all you people going to Scotland?

Stacyhs · 23rd February 2021, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

What is it with all you people going to Scotland?

It's where we meet our true loves.

TheSupermeerkat · 24th February 2021, 03:15 AM

So, does the average Texan support this deregulation? Do they even understand the factors that caused this mess-up?

Norman Alexander · 24th February 2021, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat

So, does the average Texan support this deregulation? Do they even understand the factors that caused this mess-up?

Yeah its thu libruls and that there pinko green new deal thing. An' bill gates and his 5g vaxines an stuff. Windmill cancer!

Lerxst · 24th February 2021, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

We can see a lot from the gutter, right?

All of us do time in the gutter
Dreamers turn to look at the cars

Lerxst · 24th February 2021, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat

So, does the average Texan support this deregulation? Do they even understand the factors that caused this mess-up?

No. Yes.

Can't speak for the average Texan though.

shemp · 25th February 2021, 06:36 AM

And here come the lawsuits against Griddy:

A Texas woman sues an electric company after her bill was nearly $10,000

Quote:

A Texas woman has filed a proposed billion-dollar class-action lawsuit against electric company Griddy Energy that alleges the company engaged in unlawful price gouging during last week's statewide winter storm and power outages, according to a statement from the law firm.

Lisa Khoury, a resident of a Houston suburb, claims she was charged a total of $9,546 by Griddy from February 1 to February 19, according to a copy of her bill filed with the lawsuit.

Khoury's average monthly electricity bill before February ranged from $200 to $250, according to the suit.

The suit claims that Griddy "committed price gouging," was negligent when it "failed to shield consumers from excessive electrical bills," and that, by selling electricity at high prices in the middle of the storm, the company was "unjustly enriched."

How the hell was Griddy "unjustly enriched"? They pass on the wholesale price to the customer. They don't make any profit from that. They make their money from the membership fee. They didn't price gouge. The wholesale price was raised to $9 per kwh by regulators.

This is like someone going to a casino and throwing a large amount of money on one spin of the wheel and losing, then suing the casino for cheating them. If you don't understand the rules and risks of the game, don't play!

I'd like to have some sympathy for her and others, but this week I'm not suffering fools gladly.

SuburbanTurkey · 25th February 2021, 06:50 AM

I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves in a situation where either they have to go into deep debt for basic services or risk freezing to death because they live in a failed state.

I don't think her lawsuit has merit. The state of Texas has explicitly written this free-market hellscape scenario into law. What happened to her is no doubt immoral, but seems to be perfectly legal thanks to the right wing ghouls running the state of Texas.

pgwenthold · 25th February 2021, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves in a situation where either they have to go into deep debt for basic services or risk freezing to death because they live in a failed state.

I don't think her lawsuit has merit. The state of Texas has explicitly written this free-market hellscape scenario into law. What happened to her is no doubt immoral, but seems to be perfectly legal thanks to the right wing ghouls running the state of Texas.

Yeah, she benefited for years with reduced costs according to her contract. If she had paid more up front, then she wouldn't be in this situation.

I wouldn't even call it immoral.

The solution here would be for the state of Texas to provide that emergency assistance to those who got stuck with this. Subsidized loans would allow them to budget their payments, for example.

TragicMonkey · 25th February 2021, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves in a situation where either they have to go into deep debt for basic services or risk freezing to death because they live in a failed state.

Ah, but she was only at risk for the debt because she chose to gamble. Everybody else merely risked freezing to death.

TragicMonkey · 25th February 2021, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Yeah, she benefited for years with reduced costs according to her contract. If she had paid more up front, then she wouldn't be in this situation.

I wouldn't even call it immoral.

The solution here would be for the state of Texas to provide that emergency assistance to those who got stuck with this. Subsidized loans would allow them to budget their payments, for example.

Most states regulate gambling, from a combination of moral principles against it and the understanding that much of the public is simply too stupid to not ruin themselves. They could enact laws to stop people gambling with vital services.

BobTheCoward · 25th February 2021, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Most states regulate gambling, from a combination of moral principles against it and the understanding that much of the public is simply too stupid to not ruin themselves. They could enact laws to stop people gambling with vital services.

It should be none of your business if I ruin myself.

Susheel · 25th February 2021, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

It should be none of your business if I ruin myself.

Yeah...but despite your constant recourse of appealing to individual responsibility, real life does not work that way. More often than not, gamblers often drag down others around them with them for no fault of theirs.

catsmate · 25th February 2021, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

We can see a lot from the gutter, right?

The stars perhaps?

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

You get nose bleeds on the high road.

But you get there alive.

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

What is it with all you people going to Scotland?

Loch Lomand is quite pleasant.

TragicMonkey · 25th February 2021, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

It should be none of your business if I ruin myself.

Agreed...if and only if you then don't demand public assistance. If you go off quietly and starve to death without using any collective resources, time, or energy then it's fine. Although I note that others will still have to spend efforts to dispose of your corpse for hygiene reasons, and wrap up your legal estate. You're always going to be some kind of burden to others, but I appreciate your attempts to minimize it.

BobTheCoward · 25th February 2021, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Agreed...if and only if you then don't demand public assistance. If you go off quietly and starve to death without using any collective resources, time, or energy then it's fine. Although I note that others will still have to spend efforts to dispose of your corpse for hygiene reasons, and wrap up your legal estate. You're always going to be some kind of burden to others, but I appreciate your attempts to minimize it.

If you cant offer public assistance without infringing on others....then don't offer the assistance.

bonzombiekitty · 25th February 2021, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

If something seems too good to be true (like endowment mortgages) then they likely are.

People signed up to this did so because they believed that they'd be paying less for their electricity over the course of the year. What made them think that there was no risk ?

You assume people saw "no risk" instead of not understanding what the actual risk would be. They may have seen the risk as occasionally paying higher rates, like maybe twice the normal rate. I don't think anyone buying these plans considered the idea that they would be paying a rate that was orders of magnitude higher than normal was possible.

IMO, such things shouldn't be made available to the average consumer.

Lukraak_Sisser · 25th February 2021, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

If you cant offer public assistance without infringing on others....then don't offer the assistance.

This is why you live alone on a mountain somewhere, never using anything made and maintained by collective effort and are posting here using telepathy?

BobTheCoward · 25th February 2021, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

This is why you live alone on a mountain somewhere, never using anything made and maintained by collective effort and are posting here using telepathy?

What are you talking about? I will take any mother effer's money if he is giving it away.

I was in the military. I had a policy of never asking my employer where he gets his money.

This is a discussion of what the mother effer (government) should do.

Skeptic Ginger · 25th February 2021, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty

You assume people saw "no risk" instead of not understanding what the actual risk would be. They may have seen the risk as occasionally paying higher rates, like maybe twice the normal rate. I don't think anyone buying these plans considered the idea that they would be paying a rate that was orders of magnitude higher than normal was possible.

IMO, such things shouldn't be made available to the average consumer.

Yes, and I have 2 questions.

What did their contracts say before the $9 Kw became the top charge?

And who the hell did make the price-gouging money?

BobTheCoward · 25th February 2021, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Yes, and I have 2 questions.

What did their contracts say before the $9 Kw became the top charge?

And who the hell did make the price-gouging money?

The few energy producers that were able to keep running. It wasnt the company charging the customers making it.

bruto · 25th February 2021, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

What are you talking about? I will take any mother effer's money if he is giving it away.

I was in the military. I had a policy of never asking my employer where he gets his money.

This is a discussion of what the mother effer (government) should do.

That doesn't make much sense. The employer of the military is the government. Just ignoring where the money comes from doesn't mean it comes from nowhere. All government aid or public assistance comes from somewhere, and seen in the right libertarian glare it can thus be said to infringe on someone's desire not to contribute to it.

Your formula, aside from basically saying no government should provide any aid at all, implies that it's all right if shut your eyes and block your ears.

BobTheCoward · 25th February 2021, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

That doesn't make much sense. The employer of the military is the government. Just ignoring where the money comes from doesn't mean it comes from nowhere. All government aid or public assistance comes from somewhere, and seen in the right libertarian glare it can thus be said to infringe on someone's desire not to contribute to it.

Your formula, aside from basically saying no government should provide any aid at all, implies that it's all right if shut your eyes and block your ears.

It is me saying I don't object to operating unethically. The quote is like a mercenary joke.

catsmate · 25th February 2021, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

This is why you live alone on a mountain somewhere, never using anything made and maintained by collective effort and are posting here using telepathy?

It's why libertarianism is utter nonsense.

catsmate · 25th February 2021, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Yes, and I have 2 questions.

What did their contracts say before the $9 Kw became the top charge?

And who the hell did make the price-gouging money?

The answer to the latter would seem to be the owners of the generating systems that remained operating.

BobTheCoward · 25th February 2021, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

It's why libertarianism is utter nonsense.

Which is why we don't have people on this forum, like how this texas situation came about, advocating it is a good idea.

Blue Mountain · 25th February 2021, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves in a situation where either they have to go into deep debt for basic services or risk freezing to death because they live in a failed state.

I don't think her lawsuit has merit. The state of Texas has explicitly written this free-market hellscape scenario into law. What happened to her is no doubt immoral, but seems to be perfectly legal thanks to the right wing ghouls running the state of Texas.

What might come out of the lawsuit is pressure to change the law so that contracts like these simply cannot be made, or have caps on the maximum rate that can be charged. As a consumer, I might have signed such a contract if I believed the rate might go from a few cents per kWH to maybe a 50 cents, but not $9! That's like 100 times the base rate. Imagine gasoline jumping to $230.00 a gallon at the same time your gas tank is empty.

BobTheCoward · 25th February 2021, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

What might come out of the lawsuit is pressure to change the law so that contracts like these simply cannot be made, or have caps on the maximum rate that can be charged. As a consumer, I might have signed such a contract if I believed the rate might go from a few cents per kWH to maybe a 50 cents, but not $9! That's like 100 times the base rate. Imagine gasoline jumping to $230.00 a gallon at the same time your gas tank is empty.

Why must you be protected from being wrong?

Jim_MDP · 25th February 2021, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Why must you be protected from being wrong?

Yawn. Your utopia falls apart every time you shop for produce, or buy tested and rated tires for your car. Or do anything that extends your life in part due to safety regulations.
Though I expect undertakers would love it.

BobTheCoward · 25th February 2021, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Jim_MDP

Yawn. Your utopia falls apart every time you shop for produce, or buy tested and rated tires for your car. Or do anything that extends your life in part due to safety regulations.
Though I expect undertakers would love it.

It is pretty easy to allow someone freedom only to do the things you find acceptable or a good idea.

Jim_MDP · 25th February 2021, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

It is pretty easy to allow someone freedom only to do the things you find acceptable or a good idea.

Non-responsive. But yeah... you do you.

BobTheCoward · 25th February 2021, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Jim_MDP

Non-responsive. But yeah... you do you.

The purpose of giving people the freedom to make a choice on their electrical plan is not so they can make a better choice than you can for them. The point is so they can make a worse one.

Jim_MDP · 25th February 2021, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

The purpose of giving people the freedom to make a choice on their electrical plan is not so they can make a better choice than you can for them. The point is so they can make a worse one.

No it wasn't. It was so the start-up (co-op?) Griddy could make a profitable business offering an alternative to whatever local power company.
And I doubt they were involved in the spot market speculation that shot fuel (LNG?) from one to two dollars per million BTUs to almost $1000 within days. They were paying that, hence passing it on to the customers (that's not gonna work out so well for them either).

But I was responding to your libertarianism in general, not this event. I do wish you'd nail down those goalposts just once.
Who am I kidding... I'm out.

BobTheCoward · 25th February 2021, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Jim_MDP

No it wasn't. It was so the start-up (co-op?) Griddy could make a profitable business offering an alternative to whatever local power company.
And I doubt they were involved in the spot market speculation that shot fuel (LNG?) from one to two dollars per million BTUs to almost $1000 within days. They were paying that, hence passing it on to the customers (that's not gonna work out so well for them either).

But I was responding to your libertarianism in general, not this event. I do wish you'd nail down those goalposts just once.
Who am I kidding... I'm out.

We both agree that regulation would make things better in this scenario.

Jim_MDP · 25th February 2021, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

We both agree that regulation would make things better in this scenario.

So you too only want to find acceptable those things which you find acceptable?

BobTheCoward · 25th February 2021, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Jim_MDP

So you too only want to find acceptable those things which you find acceptable?

No. I don't base my politics on what things make something better.

Skeptic Ginger · 25th February 2021, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

The answer to the latter would seem to be the owners of the generating systems that remained operating.

Who are they and why didn't all their energy go to their regular customers?

How is it they had energy to free-wheel with? Wouldn't they have the same customers as they normally do except they didn't lose power?

It's not making sense to me.

BobTheCoward · 25th February 2021, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Who are they and why didn't all their energy go to their regular customers?

How is it they had energy to free-wheel with? Wouldn't they have the same customers as they normally do except they didn't lose power?

It's not making sense to me.

I would bet power grid companies had a set of customers they had contracts to provide power or face penalties, and bid the price up to avoid being in non compliance

23rd February 2021, 04:18 PM	#201
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 17,161	Originally Posted by Jim_MDP I was hoping no one would jump on that TBH. If I head down that line of thought... the list gets too long, too quickly. I can't say I ever own the high road... but I try to keep it in sight. I've never been that keen on the high road... the sides are too steep, the risk of falling off is greater!
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

23rd February 2021, 07:19 PM	#203
Regnad Kcin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York Posts: 10,263	What is it with all you people going to Scotland?
	__________________ My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.

24th February 2021, 03:15 AM	#205
TheSupermeerkat Muse Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 912	So, does the average Texan support this deregulation? Do they even understand the factors that caused this mess-up?
TheSupermeerkat Muse Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 912

24th February 2021, 05:48 AM	#206
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 9,124	Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat So, does the average Texan support this deregulation? Do they even understand the factors that caused this mess-up? Yeah its thu libruls and that there pinko green new deal thing. An' bill gates and his 5g vaxines an stuff. Windmill cancer!
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

25th February 2021, 06:36 AM	#209
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 40,752	And here come the lawsuits against Griddy: A Texas woman sues an electric company after her bill was nearly $10,000 Quote: A Texas woman has filed a proposed billion-dollar class-action lawsuit against electric company Griddy Energy that alleges the company engaged in unlawful price gouging during last week's statewide winter storm and power outages, according to a statement from the law firm. Lisa Khoury, a resident of a Houston suburb, claims she was charged a total of $9,546 by Griddy from February 1 to February 19, according to a copy of her bill filed with the lawsuit. Khoury's average monthly electricity bill before February ranged from $200 to $250, according to the suit. The suit claims that Griddy "committed price gouging," was negligent when it "failed to shield consumers from excessive electrical bills," and that, by selling electricity at high prices in the middle of the storm, the company was "unjustly enriched." How the hell was Griddy "unjustly enriched"? They pass on the wholesale price to the customer. They don't make any profit from that. They make their money from the membership fee. They didn't price gouge. The wholesale price was raised to $9 per kwh by regulators. This is like someone going to a casino and throwing a large amount of money on one spin of the wheel and losing, then suing the casino for cheating them. If you don't understand the rules and risks of the game, don't play! I'd like to have some sympathy for her and others, but this week I'm not suffering fools gladly.
	__________________ If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set. "...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, ~~Trump~~ shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will "[shemp is] a most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality." - Shakespeare

23rd February 2021, 07:00 PM	#202
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,202	Originally Posted by smartcooky I've never been that keen on the high road... the sides are too steep, the risk of falling off is greater! You get nose bleeds on the high road.

23rd February 2021, 07:59 PM	#204
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,202	Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin What is it with all you people going to Scotland? It's where we meet our true loves.

24th February 2021, 01:24 PM	#207
Lerxst Muse Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Big D Posts: 685	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith We can see a lot from the gutter, right? All of us do time in the gutter Dreamers turn to look at the cars

24th February 2021, 01:25 PM	#208
Lerxst Muse Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Big D Posts: 685	Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat So, does the average Texan support this deregulation? Do they even understand the factors that caused this mess-up? No. Yes. Can't speak for the average Texan though.

25th February 2021, 06:50 AM	#210
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,449	I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves in a situation where either they have to go into deep debt for basic services or risk freezing to death because they live in a failed state. I don't think her lawsuit has merit. The state of Texas has explicitly written this free-market hellscape scenario into law. What happened to her is no doubt immoral, but seems to be perfectly legal thanks to the right wing ghouls running the state of Texas.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

25th February 2021, 07:47 AM	#211
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,206	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves in a situation where either they have to go into deep debt for basic services or risk freezing to death because they live in a failed state. I don't think her lawsuit has merit. The state of Texas has explicitly written this free-market hellscape scenario into law. What happened to her is no doubt immoral, but seems to be perfectly legal thanks to the right wing ghouls running the state of Texas. Yeah, she benefited for years with reduced costs according to her contract. If she had paid more up front, then she wouldn't be in this situation. I wouldn't even call it immoral. The solution here would be for the state of Texas to provide that emergency assistance to those who got stuck with this. Subsidized loans would allow them to budget their payments, for example.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

25th February 2021, 07:52 AM	#212
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,717	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves in a situation where either they have to go into deep debt for basic services or risk freezing to death because they live in a failed state. Ah, but she was only at risk for the debt because she chose to gamble. Everybody else merely risked freezing to death.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

25th February 2021, 07:54 AM	#213
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,717	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Yeah, she benefited for years with reduced costs according to her contract. If she had paid more up front, then she wouldn't be in this situation. I wouldn't even call it immoral. The solution here would be for the state of Texas to provide that emergency assistance to those who got stuck with this. Subsidized loans would allow them to budget their payments, for example. Most states regulate gambling, from a combination of moral principles against it and the understanding that much of the public is simply too stupid to not ruin themselves. They could enact laws to stop people gambling with vital services.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

25th February 2021, 07:59 AM	#214
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,417	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Most states regulate gambling, from a combination of moral principles against it and the understanding that much of the public is simply too stupid to not ruin themselves. They could enact laws to stop people gambling with vital services. It should be none of your business if I ruin myself.

25th February 2021, 08:20 AM	#215
Susheel Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Hyderabad, India Posts: 1,769	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward It should be none of your business if I ruin myself. Yeah...but despite your constant recourse of appealing to individual responsibility, real life does not work that way. More often than not, gamblers often drag down others around them with them for no fault of theirs.
	__________________ I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon

25th February 2021, 08:47 AM	#216
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,253	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith We can see a lot from the gutter, right? The stars perhaps? Originally Posted by Stacyhs You get nose bleeds on the high road. But you get there alive. Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin What is it with all you people going to Scotland? Loch Lomand is quite pleasant.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

25th February 2021, 08:51 AM	#217
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,717	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward It should be none of your business if I ruin myself. Agreed...if and only if you then don't demand public assistance. If you go off quietly and starve to death without using any collective resources, time, or energy then it's fine. Although I note that others will still have to spend efforts to dispose of your corpse for hygiene reasons, and wrap up your legal estate. You're always going to be some kind of burden to others, but I appreciate your attempts to minimize it.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

25th February 2021, 09:49 AM	#218
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,417	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Agreed...if and only if you then don't demand public assistance. If you go off quietly and starve to death without using any collective resources, time, or energy then it's fine. Although I note that others will still have to spend efforts to dispose of your corpse for hygiene reasons, and wrap up your legal estate. You're always going to be some kind of burden to others, but I appreciate your attempts to minimize it. If you cant offer public assistance without infringing on others....then don't offer the assistance.

25th February 2021, 10:01 AM	#219
bonzombiekitty Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 1,727	Originally Posted by The Don If something seems too good to be true (like endowment mortgages) then they likely are. People signed up to this did so because they believed that they'd be paying less for their electricity over the course of the year. What made them think that there was no risk ? You assume people saw "no risk" instead of not understanding what the actual risk would be. They may have seen the risk as occasionally paying higher rates, like maybe twice the normal rate. I don't think anyone buying these plans considered the idea that they would be paying a rate that was orders of magnitude higher than normal was possible. IMO, such things shouldn't be made available to the average consumer.

25th February 2021, 10:19 AM	#220
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,996	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward If you cant offer public assistance without infringing on others....then don't offer the assistance. This is why you live alone on a mountain somewhere, never using anything made and maintained by collective effort and are posting here using telepathy?

25th February 2021, 10:26 AM	#221
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,417	Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser This is why you live alone on a mountain somewhere, never using anything made and maintained by collective effort and are posting here using telepathy? What are you talking about? I will take any mother effer's money if he is giving it away. I was in the military. I had a policy of never asking my employer where he gets his money. This is a discussion of what the mother effer (government) should do.
	Last edited by BobTheCoward; 25th February 2021 at 10:27 AM.

25th February 2021, 10:31 AM	#222
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,749	Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty You assume people saw "no risk" instead of not understanding what the actual risk would be. They may have seen the risk as occasionally paying higher rates, like maybe twice the normal rate. I don't think anyone buying these plans considered the idea that they would be paying a rate that was orders of magnitude higher than normal was possible. IMO, such things shouldn't be made available to the average consumer. Yes, and I have 2 questions. What did their contracts say before the $9 Kw became the top charge? And who the hell did make the price-gouging money?

25th February 2021, 10:39 AM	#223
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,417	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Yes, and I have 2 questions. What did their contracts say before the $9 Kw became the top charge? And who the hell did make the price-gouging money? The few energy producers that were able to keep running. It wasnt the company charging the customers making it.

25th February 2021, 01:04 PM	#224
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 28,194	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward What are you talking about? I will take any mother effer's money if he is giving it away. I was in the military. I had a policy of never asking my employer where he gets his money. This is a discussion of what the mother effer (government) should do. That doesn't make much sense. The employer of the military is the government. Just ignoring where the money comes from doesn't mean it comes from nowhere. All government aid or public assistance comes from somewhere, and seen in the right libertarian glare it can thus be said to infringe on someone's desire not to contribute to it. Your formula, aside from basically saying no government should provide any aid at all, implies that it's all right if shut your eyes and block your ears.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

25th February 2021, 01:15 PM	#225
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,417	Originally Posted by bruto That doesn't make much sense. The employer of the military is the government. Just ignoring where the money comes from doesn't mean it comes from nowhere. All government aid or public assistance comes from somewhere, and seen in the right libertarian glare it can thus be said to infringe on someone's desire not to contribute to it. Your formula, aside from basically saying no government should provide any aid at all, implies that it's all right if shut your eyes and block your ears. It is me saying I don't object to operating unethically. The quote is like a mercenary joke.

25th February 2021, 01:36 PM	#226
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,253	Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser This is why you live alone on a mountain somewhere, never using anything made and maintained by collective effort and are posting here using telepathy? It's why libertarianism is utter nonsense.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

25th February 2021, 01:38 PM	#227
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,253	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Yes, and I have 2 questions. What did their contracts say before the $9 Kw became the top charge? And who the hell did make the price-gouging money? The answer to the latter would seem to be the owners of the generating systems that remained operating.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

25th February 2021, 01:41 PM	#228
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,417	Originally Posted by catsmate It's why libertarianism is utter nonsense. Which is why we don't have people on this forum, like how this texas situation came about, advocating it is a good idea.

25th February 2021, 02:14 PM	#229
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 6,518	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves in a situation where either they have to go into deep debt for basic services or risk freezing to death because they live in a failed state. I don't think her lawsuit has merit. The state of Texas has explicitly written this free-market hellscape scenario into law. What happened to her is no doubt immoral, but seems to be perfectly legal thanks to the right wing ghouls running the state of Texas. What might come out of the lawsuit is pressure to change the law so that contracts like these simply cannot be made, or have caps on the maximum rate that can be charged. As a consumer, I might have signed such a contract if I believed the rate might go from a few cents per kWH to maybe a 50 cents, but not $9! That's like 100 times the base rate. Imagine gasoline jumping to $230.00 a gallon at the same time your gas tank is empty.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

25th February 2021, 02:29 PM	#230
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,417	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain What might come out of the lawsuit is pressure to change the law so that contracts like these simply cannot be made, or have caps on the maximum rate that can be charged. As a consumer, I might have signed such a contract if I believed the rate might go from a few cents per kWH to maybe a 50 cents, but not $9! That's like 100 times the base rate. Imagine gasoline jumping to $230.00 a gallon at the same time your gas tank is empty. Why must you be protected from being wrong?

25th February 2021, 03:37 PM	#231
Jim_MDP Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: N.Cal/S.Or Posts: 8,093	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Why must you be protected from being wrong? Yawn. Your utopia falls apart every time you shop for produce, or buy tested and rated tires for your car. Or do anything that extends your life in part due to safety regulations. Though I expect undertakers would love it.
	__________________ ---------------------- Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything. "Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust. "Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000.

25th February 2021, 04:08 PM	#232
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,417	Originally Posted by Jim_MDP Yawn. Your utopia falls apart every time you shop for produce, or buy tested and rated tires for your car. Or do anything that extends your life in part due to safety regulations. Though I expect undertakers would love it. It is pretty easy to allow someone freedom only to do the things you find acceptable or a good idea.

25th February 2021, 04:42 PM	#233
Jim_MDP Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: N.Cal/S.Or Posts: 8,093	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward It is pretty easy to allow someone freedom only to do the things you find acceptable or a good idea. Non-responsive. But yeah... you do you.
	__________________ ---------------------- Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything. "Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust. "Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000.

25th February 2021, 04:52 PM	#234
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,417	Originally Posted by Jim_MDP Non-responsive. But yeah... you do you. The purpose of giving people the freedom to make a choice on their electrical plan is not so they can make a better choice than you can for them. The point is so they can make a worse one.

25th February 2021, 05:47 PM	#235
Jim_MDP Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: N.Cal/S.Or Posts: 8,093	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward The purpose of giving people the freedom to make a choice on their electrical plan is not so they can make a better choice than you can for them. The point is so they can make a worse one. No it wasn't. It was so the start-up (co-op?) Griddy could make a profitable business offering an alternative to whatever local power company. And I doubt they were involved in the spot market speculation that shot fuel (LNG?) from one to two dollars per million BTUs to almost $1000 within days. They were paying that, hence passing it on to the customers (that's not gonna work out so well for them either). But I was responding to your libertarianism in general, not this event. I do wish you'd nail down those goalposts just once. Who am I kidding... I'm out.
	__________________ ---------------------- Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything. "Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust. "Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000.