Allopathic Medicine!!!

[Skeptic Ginger]

So Treb, how are mom and baby doing?

[Trebuchet]

Pretty well, all things considered. He's gained a little weight. I understand it's common for preemies to lose at first.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

No, I've Never made a homeopathic remedy. I would not know where to start, I buy them and they are very affordable.

I did get into Collodial Silver back in 1995 and made my own for some time, bought all the stuff I needed to make it and enjoyed doing it. Now I buy it t hat too.

We are on well water. It has excellent memory. We get our homeopathic remedies for the cost of the electricity to run the pump

[Lplus]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

You might want to look up the definition of Allopathic Medicine.

I'll rephrase it for you.

Modern medicine! (Allopathic medicine, or allopathy, refers to science-based, modern medicine.)

All the benefits of homeopathic medicine (the only benefit is the placebo effect - if they think it does them good it might actually help them help themselves.)

With the added bonus of active medicinal ingredients (ie actual drugs which can cure things.)

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Steve

We are on well water. It has excellent memory. We get our homeopathic remedies for the cost of the electricity to run the pump

My well water remembers the good old days.

[W.D.Clinger]

Originally Posted by bruto

If water had a memory we wouldn't have to buy homeopathic medicines at all. All the water on earth would remember everything.

That's why W C Fields never drank the stuff.

The link I wanted to use wouldn't work because ISF software censored a word of its URL.

[Norman Alexander]

Originally Posted by Lplus

I'll rephrase it for you.

Modern medicine! (Allopathic medicine, or allopathy, refers to science-based, modern medicine.)

All the benefits of homeopathic medicine (the only benefit is the placebo effect - if they think it does them good it might actually help them help themselves.)

With the added bonus of active medicinal ingredients (ie actual drugs which can cure things.)

No it does not. It refers to a complete misunderstanding of modern medicine by Hahnemann. I explained this in detail way upthread.

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger

That's why W C Fields never drank the stuff.

The link I wanted to use wouldn't work because ISF software censored a word of its URL.

To probably misquote Sir Pterry, "I'll drink water when the fish get out to pee"

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

No it does not. It refers to a complete misunderstanding of modern medicine by Hahnemann. I explained this in detail way upthread.

They were trying to make a humorous post.

[Lplus]

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

No it does not. It refers to a complete misunderstanding of modern medicine by Hahnemann. I explained this in detail way upthread.

wikipedia;

Quote:

Among homeopaths and other alternative medicine advocates, "allopathic medicine" now refers to "the broad category of medical practice that is sometimes called Western medicine, biomedicine, evidence-based medicine, or modern medicine.

Cambridge dictionary;

Quote:

a name for conventional (= traditional and ordinary) medicine used by some followers of alternative medicine

Oxford languages;

Quote:

the treatment of disease by conventional means, i.e. with drugs having effects opposite to the symptoms.

Stuff Hahneman.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Darat

Or - and I am not making this up, put one of your pre-prepared tablets into a bottle with your blank pills and leave for a little while. Or even just put a bottle of your remedy next to one of blanks. All accepted ways of preparing a remedy.

Haha. Yes, I had forgotten about that.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

No it does not. It refers to a complete misunderstanding of modern medicine by Hahnemann. I explained this in detail way upthread.

This is not strictly accurate. Hahnemann lived and died before modern medicine existed. In a way, at the time, homeopathy was better than the "allopathic" medicine at the time (which was pretty awful), because at least it didn't have side effects.

[arthwollipot]

I'd like to make a mention of the duck liver thing, Oscillococcinum. It's "discoverer" was Joseph Roy, who while looking at the blood of cancer sufferers, thought he saw an oscillating bacterium. He further thought that he had seen the same thing in the blood of people suffering from influenza and herpes - though we now know that these are viral diseases and not bacterial. He later claimed to have discovered the same thing in the liver of a duckling, so obviously this is what he diluted for his remedy - to 200C which maths out to one part duck offal to 10⁴⁰⁰ parts water.

Now here's the thing. Not one other person has seen this mysterious oscillating bacterium, anywhere, ever, under any circumstances. It is nigh-certain to be entirely mythical. And yet it is the bases for a cold and flu remedy that is available in over 50 countries.

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by The Greater Fool

I've nearly died twice on the operating table in operations that are considered safe outpatient procedures.

I've had a few bad effects from drugs.

I guess this means that I should no longer trust doctors (Big Med?) or drugs (Big Pharma)? But I should trust homeopathic Doctors (Big Woo?) and their 'drugs' (Big Water)?

I'm so confused.

New Version Of 'Operation' Just Has Players Use Essential Oils Instead Of Performing A Medical Procedure

PAWTUCKET, RI—In a press release Friday, Hasbro announced a new version of classic board game Operation in which players use essential oils to treat serious medical conditions rather than taking the patient, Cavity Sam, into a hospital for expensive, invasive surgery.

Much like the typical version, players draw a card to see which ailment they are supposed to cure on their turn and how much money they'll earn for a success. However, instead of using tweezers to remove potentially deadly growths all throughout Sam's body, players will need to apply the correct oil. If they put the wrong oil into the board, blend the concoction improperly, or miss their target, the board will buzz, indicating the player has failed.

"For instance, if the patient has a collapsed lung, conventional Operation wisdom would be to operate," said a Hasbro rep demoing the game in a video on YouTube. "But this is just propaganda from Big Pharma. All that collapsed lung needs is a little frankincense, and Cavity Sam is good to go." The demonstrator then showed how lavender could cure the patient's sore throat, lemongrass his gout, and cassia a serious cardiac event like a heart attack.

"We're finally pushing back against the big-dollar medical industry," she said before attempting to cure Sam's obesity with a "Slim N' Sassy" blend. "Oops! I accidentally dropped the oil into his heart attack slot. Now he's dead."

The game already has two expansions announced: Essential Oil Starter Pack 1, which contains over 50 new oils for kids to experiment with, and Oil Baron, which tasks players with hiring their friends and family to work for their new work-from-home essential oil empire.

[EHocking]

This bottle pretty much sums up homeopathetic "remedies" and both the gullibility and absurd lack of logic of proponents, IMO.



A "remedy" that ensures "a gentle, calming formula that promotes relaxation and supports a good night's sleep"

Assured to be non-addictive and non-drowsy. . .

[bruto]

Once again I'm reminded of an old cartoon, in which the salesman is reassuring the buyer of an insect spray, "Of course it's harmless. It wouldn't hurt a fly!"

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by EHocking

New Version Of 'Operation' Just Has Players Use Essential Oils Instead Of Performing A Medical Procedure

PAWTUCKET, RI—In a press release Friday, Hasbro announced a new version of classic board game Operation in which players use essential oils to treat serious medical conditions rather than taking the patient, Cavity Sam, into a hospital for expensive, invasive surgery.

Much like the typical version, players draw a card to see which ailment they are supposed to cure on their turn and how much money they'll earn for a success. However, instead of using tweezers to remove potentially deadly growths all throughout Sam's body, players will need to apply the correct oil. If they put the wrong oil into the board, blend the concoction improperly, or miss their target, the board will buzz, indicating the player has failed.

"For instance, if the patient has a collapsed lung, conventional Operation wisdom would be to operate," said a Hasbro rep demoing the game in a video on YouTube. "But this is just propaganda from Big Pharma. All that collapsed lung needs is a little frankincense, and Cavity Sam is good to go." The demonstrator then showed how lavender could cure the patient's sore throat, lemongrass his gout, and cassia a serious cardiac event like a heart attack.

"We're finally pushing back against the big-dollar medical industry," she said before attempting to cure Sam's obesity with a "Slim N' Sassy" blend. "Oops! I accidentally dropped the oil into his heart attack slot. Now he's dead."

The game already has two expansions announced: Essential Oil Starter Pack 1, which contains over 50 new oils for kids to experiment with, and Oil Baron, which tasks players with hiring their friends and family to work for their new work-from-home essential oil empire.

"Many a True Word is Said in Jest". Can we add an acupuncture version with fake needles to insert in the correct points in the patient? This could be contain a simple circuit board designed such that a wrong answer caused smoke to pour from the patient's ears.

There is money to be made per PT Barnum's philosophy.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by EHocking

This bottle pretty much sums up homeopathetic "remedies" and both the gullibility and absurd lack of logic of proponents, IMO.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12761

A "remedy" that ensures "a gentle, calming formula that promotes relaxation and supports a good night's sleep"

Assured to be non-addictive and non-drowsy. . .

Does that claim to be homoeopathic? This looks like a list of potentially active ingredients - https://gohealthy.co.nz/products/sle...sleep-support/

[Norman Alexander]

Originally Posted by Lplus

wikipedia;



Cambridge dictionary;



Oxford languages;



Stuff Hahneman.

Hahnemann's definition of allopathy has indeed been converted to refer to "modern medicine in general" NOW. His original definition was mistaken, and the new definition is even more mistaken. Modern medicine does not use any of the methodology described in homeopathic lore as "allopathy".

The use by homeopaths of the word "allopathy" is very much akin to the use by rabid right-wingers of the words "socialist" and "communist" to mean "anyone I don't agree with". It is simply an all-purpose epithet to both despise and dismiss, bearing no relation to the actual definition or original use of the word.

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Does that claim to be homoeopathic? This looks like a list of potentially active ingredients - https://gohealthy.co.nz/products/sle...sleep-support/

Quite true in fact.
Naturopathy is nearly as silly ( Vis, a non-drowsy sleep remedy ) but potentially more dangerous as there are active ingredients, that can be prescribed by any uneducated practitioner.

[Norman Alexander]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

This is not strictly accurate. Hahnemann lived and died before modern medicine existed. In a way, at the time, homeopathy was better than the "allopathic" medicine at the time (which was pretty awful), because at least it didn't have side effects.

In fact, Hahnemann was a proponent of rigorous testing of potions and remedies, much along the lines of the double-blind style gold-standard today. His method, "proving", was to test them on a live subject (usually himself) and note the effects honestly.

Unfortunately he started with a massive dose of full-strength cinchona powder (aka quinine), which had some predictably serious side-effects as a result (some people are allergic to quinine, and Hahnemann described his symptoms as being very much like that reaction).

It was this event that prompted him to consider diluting the doses of remedies in a controlled fashion, leading to the development of his "scientific" dilution method for his own safety. From the highly diluted doses he then recorded his symptoms faithfully, which he called "proving". His limitation was he had no understanding of molecular science, and thus the notion he was diluting remedies out of existence. But to be fair, neither did a lot of other scientists at the time - chemistry as we know it today was only in its infancy.

So he started well-meaning and ahead of his time, but rapidly headed off down a non-scientific path. Within a few decades, scientists had the basics of molar chemistry, and realised Hahnemann was just fooling himself. The very first debunking of homeopathy was in the early 1800's, but by that time Hahnemann was a cranky old codger hawking his notions across Europe and was having no truck with this "new science". It was at this time he coined the word "allopathy" as an insult. He failed to understand what he was denigrating then, and things have gotten worse since.

[Caroline13]

Originally Posted by EHocking

Quite true in fact.
Naturopathy is nearly as silly ( Vis, a non-drowsy sleep remedy ) but potentially more dangerous as there are active ingredients, that can be prescribed by any uneducated practitioner.

You can all take your prescribed Ambien drugs, cook at night, go outside and walk around and whatever else that class of sleep drugs do.

I'll take my Calms Forte' and get a wonderful dreamy restorative sleep every night.

[Finster]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Does that claim to be homoeopathic? This looks like a list of potentially active ingredients - https://gohealthy.co.nz/products/sle...sleep-support/

That’s another problem with homeopathic crap, at least in the U.S., the lack of regulation leads to things being labeled homeopathic that are not and that do have active ingredients. And in the case of something like Zicam, not just active, actively dangerous.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

You can all take your prescribed Ambien drugs, cook at night, go outside and walk around and whatever else that class of sleep drugs do.

I'll take my Calms Forte' and get a wonderful dreamy restorative sleep every night.

You appreciate, I presume, that most people just go to bed and go to sleep and don't take any tablets, prescription or otherwise, to make it happen.

[Caroline13]

Originally Posted by Finster

That’s another problem with homeopathic crap, at least in the U.S., the lack of regulation leads to things being labeled homeopathic that are not and that do have active ingredients. And in the case of something like Zicam, not just active, actively dangerous.

How many have died from homeopathics? Can you tell me. And Zicam, wonder how many issues from this drug. I have no clue what it's used for is it for asthma? I'll have to look it up. If one has a great trust in Big Pharma go for them, they need your business.

Zucam lawsuits:

https://www.phillipslaw.com/zicam

This article says it's essentially homeopathic that is hard to grasp. It does contain zinc and take daily zinc and especially during this covid mess.

Zicam is also classified as a homeopathic product, which means that it is technically not sold as a medication like many that require a prescription. While this may seem like a small difference, this classification means that Zicam did not need to go through the formal approval process thats required by the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for many medications. Therefore, no formal studies or statistics were offered to the FDA for approval prior to Zicam hitting the market.


If I ever get a cold and I have NOT had one in 30-40 yrs, thanks to my herbals, and grape seed extract, I'd look at Zicam. There are also homeopathic cold remedies on the market and I have some here at home for just in case.

[Caroline13]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

You appreciate, I presume, that most people just go to bed and go to sleep and don't take any tablets, prescription or otherwise, to make it happen.

Oh I'm on other groups and many have plenty of people who have Sleep Issues, and the older one gets the more issues.And then there is the Insomnia world.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Does that claim to be homoeopathic? This looks like a list of potentially active ingredients - https://gohealthy.co.nz/products/sle...sleep-support/

There doesn't seem to be anything homeopathic in that. But that is another problem of "homeopathy": In many countries, including the US, homeopathic remedies are more or less given a free pass by authorities. Homeopaths like to cite that as an approval, but it is really based on the assumption that it is harmless.

However, this means that a lot of various snake-oil is being marketed as "homeopathic" do keep it under the radar of authorities.

Hans

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

How many have died from homeopathics? Can you tell me. And Zicam, wonder how many issues from this drug. I have no clue what it's used for is it for asthma? I'll have to look it up. If one has a great trust in Big Pharma go for them, they need your business.

Zucam lawsuits:

https://www.phillipslaw.com/zicam

This article says it's essentially homeopathic that is hard to grasp. It does contain zinc and take daily zinc and especially during this covid mess.

Zicam is also classified as a homeopathic product, which means that it is technically not sold as a medication like many that require a prescription. While this may seem like a small difference, this classification means that Zicam did not need to go through the formal approval process thats required by the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for many medications. Therefore, no formal studies or statistics were offered to the FDA for approval prior to Zicam hitting the market.


If I ever get a cold and I have NOT had one in 30-40 yrs, thanks to my herbals, and grape seed extract, I'd look at Zicam. There are also homeopathic cold remedies on the market and I have some here at home for just in case.

This is a misleadingly meaningless question. I would be surprised if anyone has died from the actual effects of homeopathic medications, since they are essentially nothing at all. Similarly you can also say nobody has died from the actual effects of praying to saint Dymphna or hanging garlic around their neck.

The question, of course, is not whether the medications have caused harm or death, but whether trust in them has. This you cannot evaluate easily, but it's a very very different question.

[Pixel42]

Homeopathic remedies have no side effects because they have no effects at all. They are harmless because they are just sugar pills.

Even your much vaunted grape seed extract has side effects, because it does actually have some effects.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

How many have died from homeopathics?

Four hundred and thirty seven. Most of them because homeopaths told them to stop taking their medication, or because they chose to take homeopathy instead of medicine.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

This article says it's essentially homeopathic that is hard to grasp.

You dilute the active ingredient the way homeopaths do. Bingo you made a homeopathic drug. You win an exemption from a whole bunch of tests and regulations that are supposed to protect people from unsafe drugs.

The difference between this stuff and most homeopathic pills is that its ingredients are only diluted a bit, so they are still there in the product in significant quantities. Usually these things are diluted and diluted until they're just plain water then diluted some more and diluted again and again and eventually one drop of plain water is dripped on some sugar pills and hey presto.

[The Greater Fool]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

Oh I'm on other groups and many have plenty of people who have Sleep Issues, and the older one gets the more issues.And then there is the Insomnia world.

Calms Forte:

Active Ingredients | Purposes:
Avena Sativa 4X HPUS: stress, nervousness
Calcarea Phosphorica 3X HPUS: restlessness
Chamomilla 4X HPUS: nervous irritability
Ferrum Phosphoricum 3X HPUS: nervousness
Humulus Lupulus 4X HPUS: occasional sleeplessness
Kali Phosphoricum 3X HPUS: irritability
Magnesia Phosphorica 3X HPUS: mental anxiousness
Natrum Phosphoricum 3X HPUS: anxiousness
Passiflora 4X HPUS: restless sleep from exhaustion

At 3X/4X it seems possible one might get a molecule or two of active ingredient. Compared to water it's pretty much water.

Directions:
Adults & children 12 years and over: As a relaxant: swallow 1-2 tablets with water as needed three times daily. For occasional sleeplessness: 1-3 tablets 1/2 to 1 hour before retiring.

The average person takes about 30 minutes to get to sleep. Again, Calms Forte compares favorably to water. With or without Calms Forte it will take about the same time to get to sleep.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Four hundred and thirty seven. Most of them because homeopaths told them to stop taking their medication, or because they chose to take homeopathy instead of medicine.

To be fair, they didn't all die due to taking homeopathy instead of medicine, some of them just suffered organ failure or brain damage or stuff like that.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

In fact, Hahnemann was a proponent of rigorous testing of potions and remedies, much along the lines of the double-blind style gold-standard today. His method, "proving", was to test them on a live subject (usually himself) and note the effects honestly.

Unfortunately he started with a massive dose of full-strength cinchona powder (aka quinine), which had some predictably serious side-effects as a result (some people are allergic to quinine, and Hahnemann described his symptoms as being very much like that reaction).

It was this event that prompted him to consider diluting the doses of remedies in a controlled fashion, leading to the development of his "scientific" dilution method for his own safety. From the highly diluted doses he then recorded his symptoms faithfully, which he called "proving”.

The event with the cinchona bark was what led him to “like cures like”, as he thought the symptoms he experienced were like those of malaria, and therefore cinchona bark cured malaria because it caused similar symptoms (the prevailing medical theory was that it cured malaria because it was bitter, by the way. Hahnemann rejected this because other bitter things didn’t cure malaria). He didn’t start using the dilutions until much later, and it was at that point that he decided that the “provings” should also be carried out using the diluted remedies.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

To be fair, they didn't all die due to taking homeopathy instead of medicine, some of them just suffered organ failure or brain damage or stuff like that.

Yes, this is true. But it is not true that homeopathy is without harm.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by EHocking

New Version Of 'Operation' Just Has Players Use Essential Oils Instead Of Performing A Medical Procedure

PAWTUCKET, RI—In a press release Friday, Hasbro announced a new version of classic board game Operation in which players use essential oils to treat serious medical conditions rather than taking the patient, Cavity Sam, into a hospital for expensive, invasive surgery.

Much like the typical version, players draw a card to see which ailment they are supposed to cure on their turn and how much money they'll earn for a success. However, instead of using tweezers to remove potentially deadly growths all throughout Sam's body, players will need to apply the correct oil. If they put the wrong oil into the board, blend the concoction improperly, or miss their target, the board will buzz, indicating the player has failed.

"For instance, if the patient has a collapsed lung, conventional Operation wisdom would be to operate," said a Hasbro rep demoing the game in a video on YouTube. "But this is just propaganda from Big Pharma. All that collapsed lung needs is a little frankincense, and Cavity Sam is good to go." The demonstrator then showed how lavender could cure the patient's sore throat, lemongrass his gout, and cassia a serious cardiac event like a heart attack.

"We're finally pushing back against the big-dollar medical industry," she said before attempting to cure Sam's obesity with a "Slim N' Sassy" blend. "Oops! I accidentally dropped the oil into his heart attack slot. Now he's dead."

The game already has two expansions announced: Essential Oil Starter Pack 1, which contains over 50 new oils for kids to experiment with, and Oil Baron, which tasks players with hiring their friends and family to work for their new work-from-home essential oil empire.

Classic sketch

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by bruto

This is a misleadingly meaningless question. I would be surprised if anyone has died from the actual effects of homeopathic medications, since they are essentially nothing at all. Similarly you can also say nobody has died from the actual effects of praying to saint Dymphna or hanging garlic around their neck.

The question, of course, is not whether the medications have caused harm or death, but whether trust in them has. This you cannot evaluate easily, but it's a very very different question.

Speaking of Zicam, I was looking for the zinc product that works, gluconate or acetate, I forget what the version actually studied is. So I come across the Zicam at Walgreen's pharmacy and the label doesn't say what zinc is actually in it, then I notice it says homeopathic medicine. So I went to the pharmacist and asked him what was in it. He didn't know. I pointed out it was homeopathy and a fraud if it was being sold as a zinc formula.

I don't think they bothered to take it off the shelf. This was years ago and I didn't follow up. Next time I'm in there I'll look.

[arthwollipot]

Chemists in Australia all routinely carry homeopathy, as well as the full range from Big Supp.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Speaking of Zicam, I was looking for the zinc product that works, gluconate or acetate, I forget what the version actually studied is. So I come across the Zicam at Walgreen's pharmacy and the label doesn't say what zinc is actually in it, then I notice it says homeopathic medicine. So I went to the pharmacist and asked him what was in it. He didn't know. I pointed out it was homeopathy and a fraud if it was being sold as a zinc formula.

According to this the zinc compounds are at 1X and 2X, so there will be zinc present.

[Caroline13]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

There doesn't seem to be anything homeopathic in that. But that is another problem of "homeopathy": In many countries, including the US, homeopathic remedies are more or less given a free pass by authorities. Homeopaths like to cite that as an approval, but it is really based on the assumption that it is harmless.

However, this means that a lot of various snake-oil is being marketed as "homeopathic" do keep it under the radar of authorities.

Hans

Homeopathy is harmless and if those who use it believe it's helping then -- Why Not? Much of the world uses it.