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Old 14th September 2021, 09:53 AM   #81
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This is just the "Children can't write in cursive!" thing again, pick one meaningless dying skill and use it to prove a "dumbing down" scenario.
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Old 14th September 2021, 10:35 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is just the "Children can't write in cursive!" thing again, pick one meaningless dying skill and use it to prove a "dumbing down" scenario.
Looking forward to tut-tutting at kids who can't type because they have been using brain implants since they were toddlers.
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Old 14th September 2021, 03:03 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In Denmark, most (big!) supermarkets give you the choice between manned and unmanned cash registers. If you choose unmanned where the lines tend to be shorter, you cannot use cash.
That's odd. Around here there are from time to time lines that don't take cash but it's more like an express line. Self checkout mostly doesn't take cash anymore, they used to. But there are always lines where the cashiers take cash.

Then there are a lot of grocery checkouts where the cashier records the amount you give them and the change comes out of a change dispensing machine.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:27 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Looking forward to tut-tutting at kids who can't type because they have been using brain implants since they were toddlers.
Just don't search for videos of children been asked to use a dial phone.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:41 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Just don't search for videos of children been asked to use a dial phone.
Old people: "Kids these days! Can't dial a touchtone phone, can't write cursive!"

Yeah, but they can open an e-mail without downloading 23 viruses and wiring half their money to a Nigerian Prince. Sit down grandpa.
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Old 14th September 2021, 07:02 PM   #86
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Besides the rudimentary skills, I think students, especially high schoolers, would be served well learning skepticism and critical thinking. The real dumbing down of our country comes from this entitlement to believe what you want, imo.
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Old 14th September 2021, 08:12 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, we're not. We are talking about a cashier who doesn't know what you want him/her to do with extra coin(s). You interpret this as an inability to add and subtract.
I do not, and have said so repeatedly. They do calculus in the local high school, as I mentioned. I mention addition and subtraction to point out that it is not some arcane "skill" as so many assert. It's basic stuff that they can effortlessly do.


I am claiming that a cashier's job nowadays doesn't require the ability to add and subtract. The cash register (or whatever it's called nowadays) has rendered it superfluous for the job as a cashier - at least in my local supermarkets. The cashier still needs to be sentient, for now. You may not have noticed, but in big supermarkets nowadays cashiers have been replaced by people who watch the customers register and pay for their own purchases digitally. The staff is only there to make sure that the customers actually do so and don't leave without paying.
No adding and subtracting at all. [/quote]

Yes, cashiers scan items for the prices. That doesn't mean the third-grade math abilities disappear. Does their third grade reading ability and comprehension disappear on the job too? How about their potty training?

Quote:
And no Thermal to try to pick an argument with the machinery.
Oh yeah. Like I'm not going to pick a fight with a machine.

Quote:
Your beach town is very different from my beach towns.
I'm sure. It's actually why I bring this stuff up, to hear what different people experience in other parts of the country and World. The sidebars are interesting, even in something as trivial as this.

Quote:
You are still pretending that this is a question of inability to add and subtract. It isn't. It is your inability to interpret the situation correctly. There is no problem except your inability to understand what is going on, and the fact that you enjoy being offended by your own fantasy.
What in the world are you talking about?

Quote:
If I went to your beach town (note to self: remember to bring cash!) and had your alleged problem with a cashier, I would come up with the simplest solution in the world: I would use the tool of sentients and tell the cashier what I was trying to achieve with the extra coin(s).
Instead of this simple solution, you came up with this elaborate fantasy about kids' inability to add and subtract!
Again, wut? That's exactly what I say to the cashier: "I'm tryna get a quarter back". And, yet again, it's not their math ability I am questioning. I know they have it. It's the lack of flexibility in their thinking that strikes me as odd. This is what I keep repeating.

Quote:
The change thingy isn't exactly little. It's this black-and-gray machine. (It looks bigger in the photo that it actually is.) Apparently, it also makes it more difficult for robbers to get at the cash.
And the beauty of it is that it will actually give me the coin I was hoping for if I have added and subtracted correctly!
Very cool. In the two grocery stores on my island, there are a dozen 1980's checkout lines with conveyor belts and a bagging area for overflowing shopping carts, and smaller electronic self-checkouts for smaller hauls (no room for a lot of stuff).

Quote:
When we recycle bottles and cans at the supermarket, a similar machine gives us the choice between receiving money for the returnables or donating it to charity. Two buttons. No cup.
Again, that's kind of interesting. Here in the States, only a few States do cash back for recyclables (mine doesn't). We put them on the curb and the town hauls them away for recycling.
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Last edited by Thermal; 14th September 2021 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 14th September 2021, 08:34 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Besides the rudimentary skills, I think students, especially high schoolers, would be served well learning skepticism and critical thinking. The real dumbing down of our country comes from this entitlement to believe what you want, imo.
The weird thing is that I've talked to high school teachers. There has been a huge emphasis on critical thinking in education. Seriously, lots of time spent specifically on that subject, with exercises and homework rewritten to emphasize it.
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Old 14th September 2021, 08:54 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

Address the problems of teachers passing kids that shouldn't be passed. [
My kid has been in the same school for 10 years (since she was almost 3yrs old) and has had 4 teachers leading those classes. Yup. Just 4.

Our teachers cannot "pass" non-reading kids to another teacher. They ARE the next teacher too!
Kids who don't have basic reading skills don't even get to 1st grade unless they can make it happen in summer programs. They are held back, though I have only seen this done twice (both were boys who ended up very bright). Reading is key to every single subject in school!!!!

Public school kids are getting handed off year after year after year. And no wonder they are behind and discouraged. So sad.


eta: I hate that the metric is 'closing the gap' and not actually improving overall achievement for all students. Just imagine all the ways you can 'close that gap' just by closing off measuring mastery in a subject or cutting honors classes that have disparities in representation...etc.... Bad metric.

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Old 14th September 2021, 10:10 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Besides the rudimentary skills, I think students, especially high schoolers, would be served well learning skepticism and critical thinking. The real dumbing down of our country comes from this entitlement to believe what you want, imo.
When my parents were visiting places to move, the school district announced that they were introducing a critical thinking curriculum, and were having a meeting on it. They thought it was great since critical thinking is a skill that you can use in any job you go into.

The parents who showed up at the meeting were FURIOUS. If their kids were taught critical thinking, they might start to question their parents, or authority, of even religion! They did not want their kids to think for themselves like that.
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Old 14th September 2021, 11:48 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As I said it is up to you to provide evidence for your many claims.
Sweet, that should all be adequately done. Let me know if you need any clarifications.

If we are really going to understand this situation, The reasons for how we could get here are just as important.
How could we get to a situation where a party would pursue policies that are opposed to its core principals and not be able to detect or correct it?

Group think and tribal politics have become a central feature in American decision making. People have exhibited near religious like adherence to their sides propaganda. Following the 'good' ideas of their side while opposing the 'evil' ideas of the other side. Often with far more important than the policies themselves.

We have gotten to the point where we are not listening to people on the other side, and many of us are not even really listening to people on their own side that question their dogma.

People who otherwise would oppose systemic racism suddenly defend it if their parties actions are in question (where they base their sense of right/wrong on).

This comes down to the basic principle of what I call a 'blame based understanding system.' Something that we all do to some degree.

It is prohibitive for us to conceptualize large complex issues or problems, and we look for ways to simplify them in our minds. Mainly because we simply do not have the time or ability to address every subject that we deal with. There are a number of ways that we perform these simplifications including symbolism and generalizations. One of the tools that we use is the blame based understanding system.

Especially when we are faced with a situation where there is conflicting information, it is difficult to succinctly summarize the issue, and we need a tool that will allow us to do that. Finding a key source of blame allows us to do that by focusing blame on a main set of people or factor, and reduces the need to deeply understand added details.

When we place so much importance in the righteousness on our political side, any questioning of those policies also questions our sense of justice, and is emotionally very hard to do. Especially if we have placed a lot of importance in the blame of the opposing party.


There are also many people who will base their actions on how it affects their ego. People may feel bad about a situation, and they look primarily for ways to stop feeling bad about it rather than pursue long term or complex solutions. Sometimes that means fixing a problem, sometimes it means sweeping it under the rug. That is why solutions to difficult problems will often include ways to get it out of sight and out of mind so that people no longer have to feel as bad about them.

If we graduate people without giving them the necessary skills for most employment, we will shift their suffering out of sight from the schools. This is the same reason why many pushed for defund schemes that killed many more people of color than it saved, but pushed the dead out of sight and out of mind without the fear that they would have to be emotionally troubled by a far lower number of people that were killed and talked about publicly. People would publicly say that "Black Lives Matter," but at the same time would kill hundreds of people of color to sooth their ego by demonizing police

If we had more open dialogue, more people doing the smell test in their parties policies rather than just blind support, and more people that focused on long term solutions rather than quick emotional fixes, than this problem would be seriously mitigated.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:21 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I looked up the Oregon law.

What it did was eliminate a standardized test requirement, but students still had to pass classes where proficiency had to be proved. In other words, Oregon's current graduation requirement is exactly the same as the graduation requirements in place when I went to school. Given that fact, it's hard for me to say that this means education in Oregon is going to Hell in a handbasket.
OK, I had to do some more research, but there are a few caveats to your post.

-Oregon never had a standardized test unlike other States, and allowed students to prove proficiency in a number of ways. This law removes those requirements, and prohibits schools from using proficiency requirements for graduation until a new graduation certification system is developed with implementation by 2027 at the earliest.
- The special proficiency standards that are being removed were developed 10 years ago, and included special programs to help those struggling to pass.
- Schools developed special writing and math courses to find people multiple pathways to graduation, but ESL students and others continued to struggle.
- The new standards will seek to have much higher passing rates, but will look to standards in other states for reference.


Given how much supporters have indicated that this will help people graduate compared to the old proficiency standards, this is definitely a reduction in educational standards. I would definitely agree that it is not sending Oregon school to hell in a hand basket, but it is definitely accurate to say that it is dumbing then down.
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Old 15th September 2021, 05:30 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
OK, I had to do some more research, but there are a few caveats to your post.

-Oregon never had a standardized test unlike other States, and allowed students to prove proficiency in a number of ways. This law removes those requirements, and prohibits schools from using proficiency requirements for graduation until a new graduation certification system is developed with implementation by 2027 at the earliest.
- The special proficiency standards that are being removed were developed 10 years ago, and included special programs to help those struggling to pass.
- Schools developed special writing and math courses to find people multiple pathways to graduation, but ESL students and others continued to struggle.
- The new standards will seek to have much higher passing rates, but will look to standards in other states for reference.


Given how much supporters have indicated that this will help people graduate compared to the old proficiency standards, this is definitely a reduction in educational standards. I would definitely agree that it is not sending Oregon school to hell in a hand basket, but it is definitely accurate to say that it is dumbing then down.
They still have to pass classes, though, which is what I had to do. Sadly, though, it's almost certainly true that many teachers in many schools pass kids who aren't even minimally proficient in the subjects. This law removed a sort of backup plan that verified students actually were able to earn that D.
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Old 15th September 2021, 06:24 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The weird thing is that I've talked to high school teachers. There has been a huge emphasis on critical thinking in education. Seriously, lots of time spent specifically on that subject, with exercises and homework rewritten to emphasize it.
My understanding of the research is that we just don't really know how to teach critical thinking in a way that people will learn the skills and be able to apply them to real world situations.

It would probably be better to just teach more statistics, though that's just a guess on my part.
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Old 15th September 2021, 09:09 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
My understanding of the research is that we just don't really know how to teach critical thinking in a way that people will learn the skills and be able to apply them to real world situations.

It would probably be better to just teach more statistics, though that's just a guess on my part.
They need to flat out debate, live or written, and need walkthroughs on avoiding logical fallacies. This I think at least makes people more mindful of what they say in a realistic setting that requires critical thought. In our grade 10-12 speech class we were given a position and asked to defend it as rigorously as possible. I don't think there's much motivation to argue for something you're not passionate about or at least don't think is right or true.

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Old 15th September 2021, 03:42 PM   #96
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It's usually a good exercise to look at/read advertisements and pick them apart. Even pretty young kids can do this and enjoy it!
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:29 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I was just about to mention a recent visit to McDonald's, the cost was $18.10, I gave the girl with antifreeze colored hair a twenty dollar bill and a dime. She said, "You gave me ten cents too much.", gave me my dime back, along with another ninety cents in change and a single dollar bill. I asked why she didn't just give me two dollar bills back. "That would throw my register off."
What's her hair color got to do with it?
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:03 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I've never seen anyone do that. I suspect this is an urban myth, something the get-off-my-lawn crowd repeats when they are complaining about kids these days.
No, it has happened to me. More than once. I've been the dumb young cashier that snooty old dads pull this move on. Then they'd try to give me a patronizing math lesson, loudly, on the spot. Sometimes, their wives would at least grant me the dignity of looking embarrassed to be with them.

My own father has come home / over bitching about these exact same types of interactions too, over the years. Use your ******* credit card, if it bothers you so much DAD.

The thing is, I actually don't think most cashiers freeze up when they're given weird change because they are dumb. It's just unexpected, and they're often not sure why someone is giving them an odd configuration. Plus, there's usually a big line they're expected to keep moving. I think this kind of transaction should be alluded to in training, so that new workers will recognize it.

It only took being humiliated 3 or 4 times for me to be on the lookout for dad change tricks. Now, I'm not a cashier anymore, but I am an accountant lol. So definitely not too bad at math. And I'm old enough to have been taught math normally, anyway.

But yes, every subsequent generation is ruining the world, everyone younger than me is bad, etc.
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:59 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
What's her hair color got to do with it?
Nothing, just an accurate descriptor to add a bit of color (no pun intended) to the story. She had the brightest lime green colored hair I'd ever seen, one could almost say it glowed.
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:31 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
No, it has happened to me. More than once. I've been the dumb young cashier that snooty old dads pull this move on. Then they'd try to give me a patronizing math lesson, loudly, on the spot. Sometimes, their wives would at least grant me the dignity of looking embarrassed to be with them.

My own father has come home / over bitching about these exact same types of interactions too, over the years. Use your ******* credit card, if it bothers you so much DAD.

The thing is, I actually don't think most cashiers freeze up when they're given weird change because they are dumb. It's just unexpected, and they're often not sure why someone is giving them an odd configuration. Plus, there's usually a big line they're expected to keep moving. I think this kind of transaction should be alluded to in training, so that new workers will recognize it.

It only took being humiliated 3 or 4 times for me to be on the lookout for dad change tricks. Now, I'm not a cashier anymore, but I am an accountant lol. So definitely not too bad at math. And I'm old enough to have been taught math normally, anyway.

But yes, every subsequent generation is ruining the world, everyone younger than me is bad, etc.
Their fashions are ridiculous. Mine were cool. They listen to noise. I listened to great rock and roll...
I'm old enough to find myself thinking that way, but I've heard it all so much that I usually stop myself in a hurry!
Oh, and that thing with change happens to me alot, generally with a new cashier.

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Old 16th September 2021, 09:02 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I was just about to mention a recent visit to McDonald's, the cost was $18.10, I gave the girl with antifreeze colored hair a twenty dollar bill and a dime. She said, "You gave me ten cents too much.", gave me my dime back, along with another ninety cents in change and a single dollar bill. I asked why she didn't just give me two dollar bills back. "That would throw my register off."
You could have asked her to change your coins for a dollar bill.
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:07 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
Oh, and that thing with change happens to me alot, generally with a new cashier.
TBF the girls at the checkout are competent and efficient. They are usually on autopilot though so try to avoid doing something unexpected and throwing them off their game.

It might be sexist of me but I will never go to a checkout staffed by a boy. It is always their first day on the job (so they are slow and make lots of mistakes - taking even longer) and they never last longer than 1 day.
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Old 17th September 2021, 10:17 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
Their fashions are ridiculous. Mine were cool. They listen to noise. I listened to great rock and roll...
I'm old enough to find myself thinking that way, but I've heard it all so much that I usually stop myself in a hurry!
Oh, and that thing with change happens to me alot, generally with a new cashier.
I know, I do it too haha. And like you, I try to catch myself, though I certainly do end up screaming at clouds from time to time.

But one area where I do defend the youth is the wild hair colors (which is why I got a little snippy in my comment to you, Mike! - sorry about that, bad day at Blackrock). In general, a lot of older people never seem to miss an opportunity to bitch about "kids with their blue hair / pink hair / whatever," and I really hate it. Like yeah, I probably wouldn't want to dye my own hair blue - as it would be work, and the hue wouldn't match my complexion - but I think blue hair looks really cool. I don't understand why it's fine and dandy for old ladies to put 50 different shades of "highlight" in their hair, but if someone selects an "unnatural" color, then they're terrible and offensive. (Also, how are bottle blond and mahogany and stuff like that "natural" colors anyway? They might be more based in naturally occurring hair shades than blue or pink, but no one thinks that's your natural hair color, Barbara. And no one really gives a ****.)

That being said, some kids do seem really dumb to me now, as well as completely unable to concentrate on anything. But my sample size is really small, and most of the kids I do know are parented by complete asses, so I'm assuming that fact skews the data.
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Old 17th September 2021, 10:30 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
That being said, some kids do seem really dumb to me now, as well as completely unable to concentrate on anything. But my sample size is really small, and most of the kids I do know are parented by complete asses, so I'm assuming that fact skews the data.
That is not a generational thing. It has been observed throughout the ages.

You need to remember that as humans, we are not capable of making unbiased samples. We tend to notice things more when they confirm our beliefs. For example, when driving on the road, we don't notice the hundreds of cars that do nothing wrong. But we sure notice when that idiot cuts us off. Have that happen a few times on a road trip and you will quickly conclude that the drivers in this city are a bunch of ****s.
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Old Today, 02:08 PM   #105
Warp12
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In Denmark, most (big!) supermarkets give you the choice between manned and unmanned cash registers. If you choose unmanned where the lines tend to be shorter, you cannot use cash.
Interesting. In the USA the "self-checkout" machines can handle cash. I don't use cash, but I see a lot of people doing so.

On a different note, I am surprised to see so much focus on the "making change" aspect of this. I mean, there are academic standards that probably are more significant, and should be focused upon. I mean, how are the standards for literacy requirements being changed, for example?
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Old Today, 02:16 PM   #106
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Interesting. In the USA the "self-checkout" machines can handle cash. I don't use cash, but I see a lot of people doing so.

On a different note, I am surprised to see so much focus on the "making change" aspect of this. I mean, there are academic standards that probably are more significant, and should be focused upon. I mean, how are the standards for literacy requirements being changed, for example?
Careful analysis of school performance and standards will never be able to compete for attention with "Danged kids these days can't even make change!"


But to answer your question, as best I can tell, the only standard under the new law is passing classes. If your teacher says it's worth a D, then you're good enough.
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Old Today, 02:29 PM   #107
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I remember cash.
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