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Old Yesterday, 12:51 PM   #1
Warbler
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Jefferson statue will be removed

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/n...y-council.html

What does everyone think of this?

I was afraid it was going to come to this. I can easily this as the start of statues of Jefferson being removed everywhere. It would also mean removing the Jefferson memorial in Washington DC. I guess statues of Washington will also have to be removed, and the Washington Monument. After all, Washington was a slave owner too? Will it eventually become to offensive to display the Declaration of Independence, because it was written by a slave owner.

Seriously, we are going to have remove all monuments and status of all foundering fathers. None could hold up to the political correct standards of modern time. I am sure they all believed something offensive about black people or other minorities or women or homosexuals, etc . . . At this rate, eventual no statues of anyone that lived before the year 2000 will be allowed. and perhaps by the here 2050, some of the people that were around and considered acceptable today will by that time be considered offensive and have to be canceled. I wonder MLK, being a reverend, what he thought of homosexuals . . . ?
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Old Yesterday, 12:58 PM   #2
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When I think of all the good that statues accomplish, it makes me sick to think that people don't venerate them sufficiently. Why, those statues achieve so much! They occupy space, provide surfaces for pigeons to crap upon, they reflect some wavelengths of light in the visible spectrum, and they occupy space! Oh, sorry, that last one came twice. But still, statues do so very, very much and are such a vital component of everyday life. I expect people will start dropping like flies if the statue-to-person ratio dips even the smallest amount! I know I can't go a whole day without looking at a statue, my stars, yes, oh my.
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Old Yesterday, 01:04 PM   #3
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*sigh*
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Old Yesterday, 01:05 PM   #4
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Thomas Paine was a pretty good founding father, though died largely friendless because he actually had the courage of his convictions and alienated his more hypocritical peers.
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Old Yesterday, 01:10 PM   #5
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I think applying cause purity to statues is... like the least useful thing we can do right now and will actually hurt getting actual monuments to racist traitors taken down.

Countering every "We can do this good thing" with "Okay but I'm going to have a problem with that because you aren't jumping straight to doing all the good things" is the single most toxic attitude in discourse right now and giving the fact that discourse is just people using streams of piss to try and piss a tide of piss back into an ocean of piss that's saying something.
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Old Yesterday, 01:16 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
What does everyone think of this?
I don't think of it unless someone makes a post like this. This is going to blow your mind, but in the city I live in we don't have even one single statue. Not one. The only monument we have is to signify how high the water got when it destroyed our downtown.

I don't understand the point of statues in general. I've never been emotionally moved by one. Mount Rushmore is neat, but mostly because of how it was made rather than who was on it. I seriously don't get the infatuation with statues.
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Last edited by plague311; Yesterday at 01:32 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 01:18 PM   #7
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Well this will help me get my R Kelly statue built, raping underage black girls is no big thing so why shouldn't he have a nice statue to honor his musical ability?
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Old Yesterday, 01:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't think of it unless someone makes a post like this. This is going to blow your mind, but in the city I live in we don't have even one single statue. Not one. The only monument we have is to signify how high the water got when it destroyed our downtown.

I don't understand the point of statues in general. I've never been emotionally moved by one. Mount Rushmore is neat, but mostly because of how it was made rather than who was one it. I seriously don't get the infatuation with statues.
I suppose you have TragicMonkey on ignore so that you can be more productive at work. Nonetheless you should read his post. He makes the best case for the existence of statues that I have ever seen.
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Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I suppose you have TragicMonkey on ignore so that you can be more productive at work. Nonetheless you should read his post. He makes the best case for the existence of statues that I have ever seen.
Oh, God no. TragicMonkey on ignore would be blasphemous. I actually had that post written up and forgot to hit "post" for awhile. Due to trying to look busy at work.
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Old Yesterday, 01:37 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think applying cause purity to statues is... like the least useful thing we can do right now and will actually hurt getting actual monuments to racist traitors taken down.

Countering every "We can do this good thing" with "Okay but I'm going to have a problem with that because you aren't jumping straight to doing all the good things" is the single most toxic attitude in discourse right now and giving the fact that discourse is just people using streams of piss to try and piss a tide of piss back into an ocean of piss that's saying something.
Who's demanding that this TJ statue get the boot?

Often time politicians in power prefer to focus on tedious culture war issues rather than actually respond to real demands and issues that people care about.

Considering that the response from the Democratic establishment to the huge wave of street protests and demonstrations in response to police violence against black people has largely been to do nothing, I'm sure some are happy to try to find some issue to virtue signal on.

It's kneeling Kente Cloth Pelosis all the way down.
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Old Yesterday, 01:40 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Who's demanding that this TJ statue get the boot?
The people who actually work in the room seem to be the people who want it to go. And, BTW, it appears they mostly wouldn't mind if it were put up somewhere else.

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Old Yesterday, 01:45 PM   #12
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The removal of the statue isn't something new, it would appear, either. Per NPR:

Quote:
The push to remove the statue began at least 20 years ago, in an effort that was led by Inez Barron's husband, state Assembly Member Charles Barron.
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Old Yesterday, 01:46 PM   #13
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The fact is Jefferson was a slaveholder and very much a hypocrite. One can hardly blame a that minorities aren't that keen to a memorial to this man when there are few such memorials to people that look like them.
This is a nothinburger as far as I'm concerned...not that the privileged white racist might throw a temper tantrum.

Think about this in perspective. There are thousands of memorials in this country to Jefferson. That a few of them are taken down is hardly going to ruin his legacy. He still remains one of my favorite of the founding fathers. His place in history is safe.
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Old Yesterday, 01:47 PM   #14
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All statues should be golemized and made to work to earn their keep! All you need to do it is incomprehensibly powerful magic. #RationalStatueSolutions #GolemzRock #BossBabe #JCPenneySale
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Old Yesterday, 01:47 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Who's demanding that this TJ statue get the boot?
All you have to do is read the articles:

Quote:
The Public Design Commission, which oversees New York City's collection of public art, voted 8-0 Monday to relocate the statue at the behest of members of the City Council's Black, Latino and Asian Caucus.
You probably didn't have the time due to foot stomping over the Dem's lack of ever doing anything.
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Old Yesterday, 01:51 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
All you have to do is read the articles:



You probably didn't have the time due to foot stomping over the Dem's lack of ever doing anything.
So the caucus did this of their own initiative? That's kinda my point.

People aren't out in the streets burning down cop precincts because they're mad about statues.

People are actually pissed off about substantial issues. It's nice that old racists are getting their statues torn down, but that's not really the kind of thing people really care about first and foremost. Necessary but not sufficient, and likely going to be all they get.
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Old Yesterday, 02:02 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
So the caucus did this of their own initiative? That's kinda my point.
No. It's been ongoing for 20 years.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
People aren't out in the streets burning down cop precincts because they're mad about statues.
Ok, maybe not entirely, but it's part of the problem.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
People are actually pissed off about substantial issues. It's nice that old racists are getting their statues torn down, but that's not really the kind of thing people really care about first and foremost. Necessary but not sufficient, and likely going to be all they get.
It's topic of the thread. It's what we're discussing. It was obviously important enough that the committee and the caucus felt the need to address it. Maybe you don't think so, but that's neither here nor there.
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Old Yesterday, 02:14 PM   #18
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I think we should replace all statues with giant sex dolls. If the homeless have a right to publicly bathrooms, they should have a right to these as well! And a twenty foot tall Robert E. Lee sex doll would be sweet revenge!
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Old Yesterday, 02:17 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I think we should replace all statues with giant sex dolls.
"Replace"? Oh. Oh! Oh, dear. Now I understand why I got banned from the museum.
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Old Yesterday, 02:37 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Replace"? Oh. Oh! Oh, dear. Now I understand why I got banned from the museum.
I think you would have been OK in the Louvre.
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Old Yesterday, 02:50 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The fact is Jefferson was a slaveholder and very much a hypocrite.
He was slave owner in a society much different than the society we have today. He lived in era where the whole economy depended on slavery. He lived is an area and era where to be against slavery would have been very unpopular. None of this is to say that means it was okay and justified to own slaves. That was never right or justified. It is to say that maybe, we shouldn't judge him by modern standards.

Also, when he originally wrote the Declaration of Independence, it contained this:

Quote:
he has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it's most sacred rights of life & liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. this piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, & murdering the people upon whom he also obtruded them; thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another.

He held, at least at some times in his life, anti slaver views.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
One can hardly blame a that minorities aren't that keen to a memorial to this man when there are few such memorials to people that look like them.
This is a nothinburger as far as I'm concerned...not that the privileged white racist might throw a temper tantrum.
Unfortunately, no minorities were founders and only one was President of the United States so far. Hopefully, the number of memorials to minorities increase in the coming years.

I can't help but wonder if they argued to remove the statue, not because it truly offended someone, but because they wanted to make a political point.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Think about this in perspective. There are thousands of memorials in this country to Jefferson. That a few of them are taken down is hardly going to ruin his legacy. He still remains one of my favorite of the founding fathers. His place in history is safe.
It is not just going to stop at a few. The people that wanted this Jefferson Statue to come down aren't going to find any statues of him acceptable. Eventually, they will all have to come down. The powers behind this won't be happy until Jefferson's legacy is owning slaves and only owning slaves. See that is the thing about cancel culture, once you are canceled your legacy is only about what you did to get canceled.
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Old Yesterday, 03:39 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
He was slave owner in a society much different than the society we have today. He lived in era where the whole economy depended on slavery. He lived is an area and era where to be against slavery would have been very unpopular. None of this is to say that means it was okay and justified to own slaves. That was never right or justified. It is to say that maybe, we shouldn't judge him by modern standards.
The HELL IT SHOULDN'T BE.
Slavery may have been legal at the time, but it was never moral. Jefferson is in so many ways my favorite of the founders and the first few Presidents. He was erudite, a voracious reader and promoted a liberal society. But he was also a very flawed man. And what I really respect about Jefferson was that he knew it. He knew that slavery was immoral and said so. Yet he never really stood by that principle. He kept one of those slaves as his concubine and fathered six of her children. He released only a tiny fraction of his slaves. In contrast President John Adams who was a friend and a proponent of abolition purchased one slave who he released immediately.
Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
Also, when he originally wrote the Declaration of Independence, it contained this:

He held, at least at some times in his life, anti slaver views.
I know, but Jefferson owned and purchased hundreds of slaves.

Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
Unfortunately, no minorities were founders and only one was President of the United States so far. Hopefully, the number of memorials to minorities increase in the coming years.

I can't help but wonder if they argued to remove the statue, not because it truly offended someone, but because they wanted to make a political point.
Of course they did. What is wrong with that? The council chambers is a very political room.

Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
It is not just going to stop at a few. The people that wanted this Jefferson Statue to come down aren't going to find any statues of him acceptable. Eventually, they will all have to come down. The powers behind this won't be happy until Jefferson's legacy is owning slaves and only owning slaves. See that is the thing about cancel culture, once you are canceled your legacy is only about what you did to get canceled.
Nonsense. I dont buy it and have always thought that the slippery slope argument on almost any issue is weak.

Jefferson is one of America's most celebrated Presidents. His name is not being banished from the history books. His face will always be on Mount Rushmore not to mention probably a hundred million coins.
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Old Yesterday, 03:53 PM   #23
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If slavery is the major thing you're known for in the history books, I can see why your monument should be taken down. Jefferson is known for a lot more than slavery.
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Old Yesterday, 04:01 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
If slavery is the major thing you're known for in the history books, I can see why your monument should be taken down. Jefferson is known for a lot more than slavery.
Yes, he's also known for having a sexual relationship with a slave (to which her consent is questionable) and fathered her six children. As far as I'm concerned, his statues can come down. I'm fine with reassessing our so-called "founding fathers."
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Old Yesterday, 04:03 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
If slavery is the major thing you're known for in the history books, I can see why your monument should be taken down. Jefferson is known for a lot more than slavery.
His crimes are a couple hundred times worse than Ariel Castro, the guy who kidnapped 3 women and held them for decades, raping them

Hundreds of times worse

There is no being known for other things than that. This isn't some bad language. There is probably no greater crime one can commit against another human than slavery.
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Old Yesterday, 04:07 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
If slavery is the major thing you're known for in the history books, I can see why your monument should be taken down. Jefferson is known for a lot more than slavery.
Yes. But let's not pretend that Jefferson didn't have an awful side to him.

There are so many different monuments and memorials of Jefferson throughout the country. That one of them was removed from one location to surely be placed in another is not the end of civilization as we know it.
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Old Yesterday, 04:11 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/n...y-council.html

What does everyone think of this?

I was afraid it was going to come to this. I can easily this as the start of statues of Jefferson being removed everywhere. It would also mean removing the Jefferson memorial in Washington DC. I guess statues of Washington will also have to be removed, and the Washington Monument. After all, Washington was a slave owner too? Will it eventually become to offensive to display the Declaration of Independence, because it was written by a slave owner.

Seriously, we are going to have remove all monuments and status of all foundering fathers. None could hold up to the political correct standards of modern time. I am sure they all believed something offensive about black people or other minorities or women or homosexuals, etc . . . At this rate, eventual no statues of anyone that lived before the year 2000 will be allowed. and perhaps by the here 2050, some of the people that were around and considered acceptable today will by that time be considered offensive and have to be canceled. I wonder MLK, being a reverend, what he thought of homosexuals . . . ?
Statues are for pigeons.
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Old Yesterday, 04:15 PM   #28
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The action proposed is to MOVE the statue, not remove it. So I gather it would be to somewhere less prominent. Like Mitch's back lawn in his Washington mansion?
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Old Yesterday, 04:19 PM   #29
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There's plenty of space and a whole lot more story you could tell in the Jefferson Memorial. He should be on the mall, but his WHOLE story should be on the mall. He was a lot of things and he should be seen as all of them. Maybe we don't need a monument as much as we need an interpretive center about him.
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Old Yesterday, 04:45 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
He was slave owner in a society much different than the society we have today. He lived in era where the whole economy depended on slavery. He lived is an area and era where to be against slavery would have been very unpopular. None of this is to say that means it was okay and justified to own slaves. That was never right or justified. It is to say that maybe, we shouldn't judge him by modern standards.
Jefferson wasn't just a passive participant in a racist society, he was the author of some eye-watering white supremacist racial pseudo-science. He was not merely dealing in received wisdom--he was actively making things worse. He, not his society, is accountable for that, even if we accept the dubious proposition that we shouldn't hold people to modern standards when choosing who to memorialize.

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He held, at least at some times in his life, anti slaver views.
It was common at the time for the aristocratic class to condemn the slave trade without repudiating slavery itself. Many slaveholders refused to shake hands with slave traders, for example. So no, I don't think this passage is sufficient to show that Jefferson was ever anti-slavery.

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Unfortunately, no minorities were founders and only one was President of the United States so far. Hopefully, the number of memorials to minorities increase in the coming years.
Unlikely. It's more or less impossible to compete with the holy Founding Fathers, particularly with the huge head start they have, and only a few other Americans have managed to ascend to the pantheon of our civic religion. Consider that there have been 1,314 senators in US history, and 11 of them have been black. If the Senate were demographically representative, we'd expect 12 or 13 black Senators to be serving right now. This is also why this is a controversy at all--nobody would give a **** if some locality decided to take down a memorial to Millard Fillmore, other than the good people from the Millard Fillmore Society. But the founding fathers....

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It is not just going to stop at a few. The people that wanted this Jefferson Statue to come down aren't going to find any statues of him acceptable.
It probably will stop at a few. I've pointed it out elsewhere, but relatively few of the Confederate memorials have been removed to date, and that's mostly been prominent memorials in mid-to-large sized cities. The fact that there are more black people than white in Richmond probably has something to do with why that statue was removed. Generally speaking, what people are asking for is the right to make their own decisions about who they choose to memorialize, and the idea that they shouldn't get to do that is indefensibly paternalistic.

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Eventually, they will all have to come down. The powers behind this won't be happy until Jefferson's legacy is owning slaves and only owning slaves. See that is the thing about cancel culture, once you are canceled your legacy is only about what you did to get canceled.
This is conspiratorial nonsense. Jefferson isn't going to be erased from history books because of what he did, but he should be in hot water among all Americans for his more execrable views, and hopefully he will be at some point.

Last edited by mumblethrax; Yesterday at 04:56 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 04:48 PM   #31
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Stupid move, Just gave lots of ammo to the right.
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Old Yesterday, 04:56 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Stupid move, Just gave lots of ammo to the right.
I learned a long time ago. The right are expert martyrs. They whine about everything. That they will complain is hardly reason to care.
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Old Yesterday, 05:18 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Replace"? Oh. Oh! Oh, dear. Now I understand why I got banned from the museum.
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I think you would have been OK in the Louvre.
How do you think Winged Victory/ Nike of Samothrace lost her arms?
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Old Yesterday, 05:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The HELL IT SHOULDN'T BE.
All I will say to that is, I wonder how you would like to be judged by the moral standards of the year 2221.
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Old Yesterday, 05:40 PM   #35
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As someone who appreciates comedy, I think it is great that we are tearing down statues of Jefferson and putting up statues of George Floyd.
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Old Yesterday, 05:40 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yes. But let's not pretend that Jefferson didn't have an awful side to him.

There are so many different monuments and memorials of Jefferson throughout the country. That one of them was removed from one location to surely be placed in another is not the end of civilization as we know it.
Does this mean you're okay with Jefferson statues generally, as long as the local community doesn't mind having one? A few Jefferson statues here and there wouldn't bother you? You'd not render harsh judgement on any community that decided to keep theirs?
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Old Yesterday, 05:50 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Slavery may have been legal at the time, but it was never moral.
I agree. I never it said there was a time when it was moral. but there was a time when it was accepted as moral by a high percentage of society.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Jefferson is in so many ways my favorite of the founders and the first few Presidents. He was erudite, a voracious reader and promoted a liberal society. But he was also a very flawed man. And what I really respect about Jefferson was that he knew it. He knew that slavery was immoral and said so. Yet he never really stood by that principle. He kept one of those slaves as his concubine and fathered six of her children. He released only a tiny fraction of his slaves. In contrast President John Adams who was a friend and a proponent of abolition purchased one slave who he released immediately.
Yes, I agree he was flawed, but should he only be remembers for the flaws and not the great things he accomplished.

Also Adams was a product of the North, Jefferson was product of the south. As you know, slavery was much more popular in the south than in the north. I wager it would be much harder to be an abolitionist, in the south than it would be to be one in the north. If Jefferson has be an abolitionist, and got rid of his slaves and told everyone else to do the same and told everyone that slavery was wrong should be banned, do you think he would have been able represent Virginia in the either the 1st or 2nd continental congress? Do you think he would have been able to do all the great things that he did? Think about it, if he was been an abolitionist in the south, he would have been very unpopular. No way he would have been picked to represent Virginia.

It is curious to me that you say Jefferson should be judged by modern standards yet you still say he is, in many ways, one of your favorites. I don't think you are truly judging him by modern standards if you still have him as one of your favorites.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know, but Jefferson owned and purchased hundreds of slaves.
I know, I am well aware of his flaws. But still don't think the fact that he at least sometimes held anti slavery views and originally put them in the Declaration of Independence should be forgotten about.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Of course they did. What is wrong with that? The council chambers is a very political room.
If you think it is okay to remove a statue of one of the founders merely to score a political point, I don't know what to say to you.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Nonsense. I dont buy it and have always thought that the slippery slope argument on almost any issue is weak.
Then we will just have to disagree. I am pretty certain the woke crowd will not stop at one statue.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Jefferson is one of America's most celebrated Presidents. His name is not being banished from the history books. His face will always be on Mount Rushmore not to mention probably a hundred million coins.
If the woke get their way. He will not be celebrated. I wouldn't be too sure that he will remain on Mount Rushmore. If pushes to remove all other statues and memorials to Jefferson are successful, why would they stop before get him(and Washington) removed from Rushmore. Those faces on Mount Rushmore are already considered offensive to Native Americans whom hold that mountain sacred. As for coins yeah, he will of course remain on old coins, but I guarantee they won't put his face on any new ones, and if they do, the woke will have a lot to say about it.
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Old Yesterday, 05:53 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
As someone who appreciates comedy, I think it is great that we are tearing down statues of Jefferson and putting up statues of George Floyd.
I appreciate some comedy, but not that type. Just to be clear, I am not defending what the cop did to Floyd nor am I saying he deserved it. But Floyd was no saint. While what happened to him was wrong, I see no reason to put up a statue of him.
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Old Yesterday, 06:00 PM   #39
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I actually agree with Warbler on this. Jefferson should be honored for his role as a Founding Father an his being a slave holder does not overshadow that. Washington was also a slave holder. Are his statues to come down, too? Lincoln did not believe Blacks were equal to whites. In one of the famous Lincoln-Douglas debates, Lincoln said "“I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is physical difference between the two, which in my judgment will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality.” Are his statues to come down too?

Jefferson was responsible for the end of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade as president and had earlier helped ban the importation of slaves into Virginia. He also tried to get Congress to pass a law that new territories after 1800 would be free territories but Congress failed to pass it.

I think there is an over-reaction by some to the statues of the Founders. Confederates are a different matter as they were, by definition, traitors.
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Old Yesterday, 06:11 PM   #40
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Keep in mind, a few on the Confederate side were conflicted. It was an era where the country had torn itself in two. Those from Confederate states were forced to chose between being a traitor to the United States or being a traitor to their home state.
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