IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 24th August 2021, 07:44 AM   #1
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,267
Why does the US owe Afghan allies?

There is this statement I see everywhere that the US owes Afghans who provided aid, and that part of it is paid through emigration.

Framing it as them being owed is odd. How does one know that? How does one make that claim and demonstrate it? Once we broach the subject of who is owed what, I'm not sure how one calculates it. Do you know that they haven't been sufficiently compensated....or even that they owe America more because the US overpaid?


How does one actually rationally and reasonably resolve the question?

(and I guess people mean the US government when they say the US)
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 08:22 AM   #2
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 42,923
It's sort of like the witness relocation program. They provided a service for the U.S. that now puts them, and their families, lives in danger were they to remain there. That's why it's being said it's "Owed them".
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 08:36 AM   #3
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,242
Like Mike said - we are not "paying them through immigration". We are providing for their safety. That's different.

Had we "won", or at least if the Taliban had not taken full control, we would not be relocating most of these people.

We recognize that the Western Coalition needed Afghans to work for them, the U.S. and allies could not function without interpreters and local experts (and language training to fluency takes years, longer than the basic term of service in the military, such that training our own people and only using them to do it would create a significant bottleneck).

We also recognize that working for us had potential to place our Afghan employees and partners at risk, such that we would have difficulty getting enough to work for us if we didn't provide some sort of safety guarantee. This guarantee could take one of two forms:
1: We win. They stay free and safe in their own country.
2: We don't win, in which case we move them to where they can be free and safe, even if it is not Afghanistan. Keep in mind that many of the relocated Afghans, possibly even the majority, are not coming to America. Many are going to end up in Europe or Arab nations.

We didn't win, so we're going with option #2.

Last edited by crescent; 24th August 2021 at 08:40 AM.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 08:47 AM   #4
jollyroger85
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Like Mike said - we are not "paying them through immigration". We are providing for their safety. That's different.

Had we "won", or at least if the Taliban had not taken full control, we would not be relocating most of these people.

We recognize that the Western Coalition needed Afghans to work for them, the U.S. and allies could not function without interpreters and local experts (and language training to fluency takes years, longer than the basic term of service in the military, such that training our own people and only using them to do it would create a significant bottleneck).

We also recognize that working for us had potential to place our Afghan employees and partners at risk, such that we would have difficulty getting enough to work for us if we didn't provide some sort of safety guarantee. This guarantee could take one of two forms:
1: We win. They stay free and safe in their own country.
2: We don't win, in which case we move them to where they can be free and safe, even if it is not Afghanistan. Keep in mind that many of the relocated Afghans, possibly even the majority, are not coming to America. Many are going to end up in Europe or Arab nations.

We didn't win, so we're going with option #2.
We never were going to win, just like the Brits and the Russians before us. 2/3s of the country arent urban and live by the tribal system of Pashtunwali (google it), and have for a very long time. They may be fine with the west coming in to builld roads etc, but they don't necessarily want democracy, on a more generic not, the US in particular is terrible at Nation Building in this part of the world.
jollyroger85 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 08:51 AM   #5
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,242
Originally Posted by jollyroger85 View Post
We never were going to win, just like the Brits and the Russians before us. 2/3s of the country arent urban and live by the tribal system of Pashtunwali (google it), and have for a very long time. They may be fine with the west coming in to builld roads etc, but they don't necessarily want democracy, on a more generic not, the US in particular is terrible at Nation Building in this part of the world.
Captain Obvious is obvious - everything you write is true. None of it changes the accuracy of what I wrote.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 09:17 AM   #6
jollyroger85
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 301
deleted dupe post, my bad.

We didn't win, so we're going with option #2.[/quote]

We never were going to win, just like the Brits and the Russians before us. 2/3s of the country arent urban and live by the tribal system of Pashtunwali (google it), and have for a very long time. They may be fine with the west coming in to builld roads etc, but they don't necessarily want democracy, on a more generic not, the US in particular is terrible at Nation Building in this part of the world.
jollyroger85 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 09:18 AM   #7
jollyroger85
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Captain Obvious is obvious - everything you write is true. None of it changes the accuracy of what I wrote.
I wasn't saying it wasn't true, your response is a bit "taken personally"...
jollyroger85 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 09:27 AM   #8
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 25,156
If you have to step down a few rungs of Kohlberg’s ladder, abandoning your allies to the mercy of your mutual enemies, you will find it harder to win allies next time.

Last edited by Sideroxylon; 24th August 2021 at 09:30 AM.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 09:29 AM   #9
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,267
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
If you have to step down a few rungs of Kohlberg’s ladder, “If you abandon your allies to the mercy of your mutual enemies, you will find it harder to win allies next time.”
But that isn't to owe something. That is a decision to accomplish a task for it's own benefit.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 09:37 AM   #10
Olmstead
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 604
Because that's the tacit agreement regardless of the value exchange.

Technically no one "owes" anyone anything until you make a detailed and omniscient account of every exchange two parties have had. Remember that time I gave you a ride? Knock a few dollars off for that.

For some reason most people don't use lanugage that way.
Olmstead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 09:38 AM   #11
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 25,156
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But that isn't to owe something. That is a decision to accomplish a task for it's own benefit.
Correct and my point. You need a deontological framing to see the situation in that way. At the aforementioned level you won’t see the moral imperative of repaying the loyalty of those who joined your cause and risked their lives for you.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 09:45 AM   #12
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,945
Bob, there really is such a concept as common decency. You can even call it something that we owe to other people.

Behaving decently has a good, hard-headed payoff, too: Afterwards, you can live with yourself.

I hope you'll ignore this post.
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 09:47 AM   #13
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 49,819
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Correct and my point. You need a deontological framing to see the situation in that way. At the aforementioned level you won’t see the moral imperative of repaying the loyalty of those who joined your cause and risked their lives for you.
Bob doesn't care about morals. I'm not sure he cares about anything except a bizarre sort of pedantry.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 10:11 AM   #14
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,267
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Bob, there really is such a concept as common decency. You can even call it something that we owe to other people.

Behaving decently has a good, hard-headed payoff, too: Afterwards, you can live with yourself.

I hope you'll ignore this post.
Well that just raises the question how do you know it is the decent thing.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 10:13 AM   #15
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,267
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Correct and my point. You need a deontological framing to see the situation in that way. At the aforementioned level you won’t see the moral imperative of repaying the loyalty of those who joined your cause and risked their lives for you.
There is a jump from you having a moral imperative from them having helped you, to what that action should be. Like how does one know the moral imperative calls for relocation and that all the other investments are insufficient?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 10:16 AM   #16
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,945
I just washed my hands

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Well that just raises the question how do you know it is the decent thing.
No, Bob, the question is how do you recognize decency.

Now I'll have to wash them again.
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 10:20 AM   #17
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,267
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
No, Bob, the question is how do you recognize decency.

Now I'll have to wash them again.
I'm not being facetious when I say I have no opinion on that.

As soon as someone asks how one knows what someone is owed or what is decency, I have no idea. I can muddle through, but it certainly isn't supported by enough evidence and argument to assert I have a position on it
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 10:29 AM   #18
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 100,426
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is this statement I see everywhere that the US owes Afghans who provided aid, and that part of it is paid through emigration.

Framing it as them being owed is odd. How does one know that? How does one make that claim and demonstrate it? Once we broach the subject of who is owed what, I'm not sure how one calculates it. Do you know that they haven't been sufficiently compensated....or even that they owe America more because the US overpaid?


How does one actually rationally and reasonably resolve the question?

(and I guess people mean the US government when they say the US)
It’s called a contract.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 10:31 AM   #19
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 25,156
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is a jump from you having a moral imperative from them having helped you, to what that action should be. Like how does one know the moral imperative calls for relocation and that all the other investments are insufficient?
Having pointed at the Kantian framing* in which America owes their Afghan allies, addressing your thread question, I will bow out of this obtuse game with shifting goal posts.

*Less formally, you might just call it common decency or doing the right thing.

Last edited by Sideroxylon; 24th August 2021 at 10:33 AM.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 10:32 AM   #20
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 23,627
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not being facetious when I say I have no opinion on that.

As soon as someone asks how one knows what someone is owed or what is decency, I have no idea. I can muddle through, but it certainly isn't supported by enough evidence and argument to assert I have a position on it
Yeah, these words in English that we all use, they can be so tough to pretend not to understand sometimes.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 11:10 AM   #21
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 25,156
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is this statement I see everywhere that the US owes Afghans who provided aid, and that part of it is paid through emigration.

Framing it as them being owed is odd. How does one know that? How does one make that claim and demonstrate it? Once we broach the subject of who is owed what, I'm not sure how one calculates it. Do you know that they haven't been sufficiently compensated....or even that they owe America more because the US overpaid?


How does one actually rationally and reasonably resolve the question?

(and I guess people mean the US government when they say the US)
This looks like the language and framing of someone taking a utilitarian ethical approach. It’s a different conceptual game to the deontological one you are questioning. You are asking football rule questions about baseball.

Neither ethical approach has been able to bear the weight of deep scrutiny of their foundation or rigour in coherence that you seem to often ask for. Better to look at them as unaware subjective aesthetic stances we take and often without exclusivity.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 11:13 AM   #22
jollyroger85
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 301
Interestingly, many in the cities "have a Taliban commander on speed dial" to handle run ins with them, so how much long term confidence did these folks have in the US backed government anyway? They were playing both sides to cover their butts.

Not sure how truthful, but https://nypost.com/2021/08/19/what-t...n-afghan-city/

Last edited by jollyroger85; 24th August 2021 at 11:14 AM.
jollyroger85 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 11:31 AM   #23
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,267
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
. Better to look at them as unaware subjective aesthetic stances we take and often without exclusivity.
Cool!

But I receive a lot of confident answers in this thread that belie the position of unaware subjective aesthetic. Or am I misinterpreting?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 11:53 AM   #24
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,224
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is this statement I see everywhere that the US owes Afghans who provided aid, and that part of it is paid through emigration.

Framing it as them being owed is odd. How does one know that? How does one make that claim and demonstrate it? Once we broach the subject of who is owed what, I'm not sure how one calculates it. Do you know that they haven't been sufficiently compensated....or even that they owe America more because the US overpaid?
....
You don't seem to grasp that the Taliban is likely to kill the interpreters and other Afghans who helped U.S. soldiers, and the U.S. combat veterans who depended on them are at the forefront of efforts to save them. Yeah, when people risk their lives to help us, we owe them more than a handshake.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/22/asia/...hnk/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/02/polit...sia/index.html
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 11:58 AM   #25
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 25,156
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Cool!

But I receive a lot of confident answers in this thread that belie the position of unaware subjective aesthetic. Or am I misinterpreting?
Yes, there are some who don’t acknowledge that but in our day-to-day interactions that is the way we all function. We might be fallibilists or naive essentialists but the lack of rigorous foundation or internal coherence doesn’t matter until we start talking past each other while playing different conceptual games.

Last edited by Sideroxylon; 24th August 2021 at 12:01 PM.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 12:02 PM   #26
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,242
Originally Posted by jollyroger85 View Post
Interestingly, many in the cities "have a Taliban commander on speed dial" to handle run ins with them, so how much long term confidence did these folks have in the US backed government anyway? They were playing both sides to cover their butts.

Not sure how truthful, but https://nypost.com/2021/08/19/what-t...n-afghan-city/
I think that might be almost normal in a civil war.

I lived in Nepal during the earliest days of that nation's civil war - the Maoist rebels controlled parts of two (very rural) districts (out of 27), and were active in two others, just a tiny fraction of the population lived in those areas. They controlled no large towns or major roads. Everywhere else it was just some propaganda and outreach, an occasional protest march.

But even then everyone knew someone who was part of the Maoist organization. They had cells like many resistance movements and nearly everyone seemed to know at least one person who was a member of one, or knew someone who had packed up and moved to join the Maoists in areas where there was fighting.

Civil wars can be terrible like that - everyone is fighting people they know, people they used to be friends and neighbors with. They don't always have the geography-based sides like the American civil war had.

I'm guessing that's how Afghanistan is.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 12:40 PM   #27
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,267
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Yes, there are some who don’t acknowledge that but in our day-to-day interactions that is the way we all function. We might be fallibilists or naive essentialists but the lack of rigorous foundation or internal coherence doesn’t matter until we start talking past each other while playing different conceptual games.
This is why I said a few posts back that I'm just muddling through.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 12:50 PM   #28
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,364
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.
.


There are credible reports that the Taliban is now executing people. Looks like the 'kinder and gentler' ( ) Taliban they claimed to be is a lie that nobody is surprised by. We can expect a crap load more executions from them. And anyone asks why we 'owe' the Afghans who put their lives in danger to work for us? Laughable.

Last edited by zooterkin; 24th August 2021 at 01:48 PM.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 12:56 PM   #29
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,267
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post


There are credible reports that the Taliban is now executing people. Looks like the 'kinder and gentler' ( ) Taliban they claimed to be is a lie that nobody is surprised by. We can expect a crap load more executions from them. And anyone asks why we 'owe' the Afghans who put their lives in danger to work for us? Laughable.
Why would they be owed more than they have received? Are they owed more? Are they owed less? How do you know?

Saying they are being executed doesn't answer the question.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 12:59 PM   #30
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,267
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Bob is probalby a huge Ayn Rand fan, which means caring about other people is evil, which is the core of Rand's philosophy.
I'm accepting the premise that the people were owed something. I have no clue what they would be owed, though.

Sideroxylon I think gave a great answer. It is everyone else's confidence in their position I don't get.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 01:10 PM   #31
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,224
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm accepting the premise that the people were owed something. I have no clue what they would be owed, though.
....
Their lives, for starters.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 01:17 PM   #32
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,364
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why would they be owed more than they have received? Are they owed more? Are they owed less? How do you know?

Saying they are being executed doesn't answer the question.
When someone literally puts their lives on the line to help you when asked, you owe them the same. If you have to have that explained to you, as you have had, but keep asking, then there's nothing I can say to get through to you. All we'll get is more sealioning. I'm out.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 01:19 PM   #33
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 43,923
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why would they be owed more than they have received? Are they owed more? Are they owed less? How do you know?

Saying they are being executed doesn't answer the question.
Why did your parents owe you anything? Why didn't they just toss you out into the street when you were born? This is just another of your Ayn Rand games. Helping anyone is evil and destructive. We get it.
__________________
Every time you feed a troll, God kills a kitten. Please stop killing kittens.

I used to think that Republicans were just jerks. Now I'm convinced that they're all sick, evil, twisted pieces of [first of George Carlin's seven dirty words].

"Biden's a Commie, like the Rockefellers!" -- some idiot overheard

Last edited by shemp; 24th August 2021 at 01:22 PM.
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 01:22 PM   #34
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,267
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Why did your parents owe you anything? Why didn't they just toss you out into the street when you were born? This is just another of your Ayn Rand games.
Ayn Rand would have an argument on what she thinks someone is owed.

I have no opinion on the question. As I said, I fully admit that any option I would have selected would be me muddling through. I would have no idea if the choice I made was the right one.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 01:28 PM   #35
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 43,923
BobTheCoward is right! We owe them nothing! We should never have gotten involved in the first place! Our response to 9/11 should have been to shrug our shoulders and say "It's the victims' faults for getting on a plane or showing up for work that day!". We should have thanked Osama bin Laden for reminding us that helping anyone or avenging anyone's death is foolish and self-destructive! Let the Afghans who helped us die! It's for their own good! It will teach them a lesson! They will learn only to rely on themselves!
__________________
Every time you feed a troll, God kills a kitten. Please stop killing kittens.

I used to think that Republicans were just jerks. Now I'm convinced that they're all sick, evil, twisted pieces of [first of George Carlin's seven dirty words].

"Biden's a Commie, like the Rockefellers!" -- some idiot overheard

Last edited by shemp; 24th August 2021 at 01:30 PM.
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 01:29 PM   #36
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 43,923
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Ayn Rand would have an argument on what she thinks someone is owed.

I have no opinion on the question. As I said, I fully admit that any option I would have selected would be me muddling through. I would have no idea if the choice I made was the right one.
I doubt you see any difference between right and wrong, nor is it likely that it would matter to you if you did. You seem to me like the ultimate moral relativist; only the outcome matters.

Your turn.
__________________
Every time you feed a troll, God kills a kitten. Please stop killing kittens.

I used to think that Republicans were just jerks. Now I'm convinced that they're all sick, evil, twisted pieces of [first of George Carlin's seven dirty words].

"Biden's a Commie, like the Rockefellers!" -- some idiot overheard

Last edited by shemp; 24th August 2021 at 01:32 PM.
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 01:34 PM   #37
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,267
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
BobTheCoward is right! We owe them nothing! We should never have gotten involved in the first place! Our response to 9/11 should have been to shrug our shoulders and say "It's the victims' faults for getting on a plane or showing up for work that day!". We should have thanked Osama bin Laden for reminding us that helping anyone or avenging anyone's death is foolish and self-destructive! Let the Afghans who helped us die! It's for their own good! It will teach them a lesson! They will learn only to rely on themselves!
It is quite a jump from asking what they are owed to saying they are not owed something.

It also seems like an issue that obviously lends itself to interpreting it as beneficial to evacuate them, regardless of what they are owed. So I don't understand why people would get into the murkier question of what they are owed.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 01:38 PM   #38
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 43,923
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is this statement I see everywhere that the US owes Afghans who provided aid, and that part of it is paid through emigration.

Framing it as them being owed is odd. How does one know that? How does one make that claim and demonstrate it? Once we broach the subject of who is owed what, I'm not sure how one calculates it. Do you know that they haven't been sufficiently compensated....or even that they owe America more because the US overpaid?


How does one actually rationally and reasonably resolve the question?

(and I guess people mean the US government when they say the US)
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is quite a jump from asking what they are owed to saying they are not owed something.

It also seems like an issue that obviously lends itself to interpreting it as beneficial to evacuate them, regardless of what they are owed. So I don't understand why people would get into the murkier question of what they are owed.
Because you asked it in the first place? Please tell us how you didn't ask the question, when you clearly broached the subject. Or is this just another exercise in moving the goalposts?
__________________
Every time you feed a troll, God kills a kitten. Please stop killing kittens.

I used to think that Republicans were just jerks. Now I'm convinced that they're all sick, evil, twisted pieces of [first of George Carlin's seven dirty words].

"Biden's a Commie, like the Rockefellers!" -- some idiot overheard
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 02:01 PM   #39
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,267
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Because you asked it in the first place? Please tell us how you didn't ask the question, when you clearly broached the subject. Or is this just another exercise in moving the goalposts?
I asked based on my perception that people frame it that way. Based on the replies to that post, people do seem to frame it that way. Based on replies, no one seems to think the framing is some novel idea raised by my question.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2021, 02:24 PM   #40
Warp12
Master Poster
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,497
Well, they are probably owed more than they are getting/going to get from the Biden administration, at this rate. Unless we can somehow get it all done within the next week, that is. The Taliban regime is calling the shots now, apparently.
__________________
“The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.” - Confucius

Last edited by Warp12; 24th August 2021 at 02:26 PM.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:09 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.