IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 30th August 2021, 07:13 AM   #201
Hercules Rockefeller
Woof!
 
Hercules Rockefeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,730
Originally Posted by Fidelio View Post
Oh and to answer the ******** OP. Yeah, I'd take another four years of a senile mentally ill co-******** over ~~checks death meter~~ 600,000ish largely preventable deaths. Assuming the nuclear launch codes were kept like sulfuric acid away from a toddler.
I really don't think hiding the nuclear launch codes in an open jar on the edge of the kitchen table is a good idea.
__________________
Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra
Hercules Rockefeller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 09:03 AM   #202
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 10,035
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Wow. You really have some dumb views on how reality works.
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I had drafted a post talking about how I actually voted for George W Bush while living abroad, as well as receiving my Bush stimulus check (!) to my overseas address, etc. etc. etc.

But your response is more concise and captures my thoughts pretty well.
thaiboxerken’s post does have the simplicity that our op seems to crave.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 09:16 AM   #203
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
I'm a democrat, and I don't care who is in charge if they have the responsibility and foresight to do what's needed to stop this pandemic.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 11:35 AM   #204
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,410
Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
A lot of otherwise rational people do seem to have a blind spot in that regard.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/s9hT...e-hypothetical
Um...no. As some comments to your article said:

Quote:
People are very good at fighting hypotheticals because hypotheticals are typically an attempt to elicit a response that can be used against them.
Which was exactly the intent of the question as evidenced by his responses.

Quote:
Sadly, we don't live in a world where all hypotheticals are actually neutral exercises in deductive logic. In real debates it's quite common to see people constructing hypotheticals that implicitly assume their position on some issue is the correct one. If you accept one of these hypotheticals you've already lost the argument, regardless of the actual merits of the case. Thus, when you find yourself confronted with a hypothetical based on an incoherent ontology, corrupt definitions, or other examples of confused or dishonest thinking often the only viable response is to challenge the validity of the hypothetical itself.

In other words, 'don't fight the hypothetical' is generally equivalent to 'let your opponent define the terms of the debate however he pleases' - rarely good advice, especially outside of a classroom setting.
This hypothetical was dishonest from the start and he has tried desperately to "define the terms" in an effort to control people's answers...and who can answer.

Quote:
If the hypothetical is structured so as to eliminate most courses of action, it has probably been purposely framed that way. Hypotheticals are intended to illuminate potential choices, if all but one choice has been eliminated, it is a biased alternative (loaded question).
And...bingo. As I said, he gave us a 'Sophie's choice' where there really is no reasonable alternative. His agenda was exceedingly transparent and dishonest.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 12:31 PM   #205
xjx388
Moderator
Moderator
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,154
I’m not a Democrat so I’m sure my opinion is invalid.

Pandemics and the death toll they cause are natural events. If it didn’t happen in 2020, it was bound to happen sooner or later. Doesn’t matter who is in power. In fact, the party in power probably won’t have much to do with any resulting death toll. That’s down to how the people react.

Which brings me to this: Trump was a result of the dying gasps of a mindset that is quite destructive in many ways. He is the face of a cancerous movement, a tumor made of lies and conspiracy theories that has metastasized all over the country. His election to the presidency served as the perfect fuel to spread this cancer.

Therefore: I choose to have Trump gone, even though the pandemic death toll remains. Trump still in power has much more destructive potential to the nation. Better to cut the tumor out and start healing than allow it to grow any further.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 12:35 PM   #206
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,939
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
If trump had won a second term the 600,000 would still be dead.
Oh the death toll would have been far higher with an incompetent, greedy, cretin like Tantrump running things.
Probably 750,000 or more.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 01:23 PM   #207
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,410
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I’m not a Democrat so I’m sure my opinion is invalid.

Pandemics and the death toll they cause are natural events. If it didn’t happen in 2020, it was bound to happen sooner or later. Doesn’t matter who is in power. In fact, the party in power probably won’t have much to do with any resulting death toll. That’s down to how the people react.

Which brings me to this: Trump was a result of the dying gasps of a mindset that is quite destructive in many ways. He is the face of a cancerous movement, a tumor made of lies and conspiracy theories that has metastasized all over the country. His election to the presidency served as the perfect fuel to spread this cancer.

Therefore: I choose to have Trump gone, even though the pandemic death toll remains. Trump still in power has much more destructive potential to the nation. Better to cut the tumor out and start healing than allow it to grow any further.
While I agree that a pandemic was bound to happen sooner or later, I disagree 100% with your first highlighted statement above. It very much matters who is in power as we saw with Trump's downplaying of and lies about the pandemic and his cronies/sycophantic Congressmembers, governors, etc. repeating this nonsense and passing anti-mask mandates like TX and FL. His mouthpieces on so-called news channels like FOX, Newsmax, and OAN peddled it throughout the country. Hydroxychloroquine and mocking masks: remember that? He also cozied up to, or at the very least, refused to condemn such misinformation and lie spreaders like QAnon et al. Yes, it very much matters who is in power.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 01:47 PM   #208
xjx388
Moderator
Moderator
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,154
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
While I agree that a pandemic was bound to happen sooner or later, I disagree 100% with your first highlighted statement above. It very much matters who is in power as we saw with Trump's downplaying of and lies about the pandemic and his cronies/sycophantic Congressmembers, governors, etc. repeating this nonsense and passing anti-mask mandates like TX and FL. His mouthpieces on so-called news channels like FOX, Newsmax, and OAN peddled it throughout the country. Hydroxychloroquine and mocking masks: remember that? He also cozied up to, or at the very least, refused to condemn such misinformation and lie spreaders like QAnon et al. Yes, it very much matters who is in power.

The Feds don’t have much power over the States. TX, FL, LA, et al…they were going to have bad responses anyway.

Fox News, et al? They exist and would have peddled their nonsense regardless.

QAnon and other conspiracy theories? They exist and would have emerged regardless.

Anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers and science deniers? They have been out there forever and would have protested even more if a Dem prez mandated something.

I just don’t see how who the President is matters to how the people behave in a pandemic any more than it matters to the movement of the stock market, the price of gas or unemployment. Those are all things that are quite independent of who the Prez is.

Mind you, I’m not saying the Prez has no influence. I’m just saying it’s minimal and there are other factors that matter more.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 01:52 PM   #209
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,391
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
That's what kills me. To many other countries, our "pinko-commie ultra-left" is actually right of center.
Be fair, the people on the furthest left are reasonably left wing, they're just such statistical outliers that the general idea that american "libruls" are left is insane.

AOC is reasonably left of centre, as is Bernie, but the majority of the Democratic party are somewhere in the centre, either slightly left, right in the middle or a little to the right. Coming from a country that has elected officials from actual left wing parties and even a small but active Communist party (local election seats only though, no nationals) the idea that the Democrats are really far left is just absurd on it's face.
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 02:05 PM   #210
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,410
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The Feds don’t have much power over the States. TX, FL, LA, et al…they were going to have bad responses anyway.

Fox News, et al? They exist and would have peddled their nonsense regardless.

QAnon and other conspiracy theories? They exist and would have emerged regardless.

Anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers and science deniers? They have been out there forever and would have protested even more if a Dem prez mandated something.

I just don’t see how who the President is matters to how the people behave in a pandemic any more than it matters to the movement of the stock market, the price of gas or unemployment. Those are all things that are quite independent of who the Prez is.

Mind you, I’m not saying the Prez has no influence. I’m just saying it’s minimal and there are other factors that matter more.
I totally disagree with your downplaying of the party in power's influence.

Of course anti-vaxxers anti-maskers would still have existed but certainly not to the number they do now. Before this pandemic, did most Republicans scream about their 'freedoms' when it came to getting regular vaccines? No. It's THIS vaccine that they're screaming about and refuse to get because it's been so politicized.

It's the same for QAnon; sure they would have existed but not to the extent they do if Trump had publicly condemned them. They saw his silence as approval.

Fox would have repeated whatever Trump was saying just like they did. To say they would have downplayed the pandemic if Trump and the rest of the GOP hadn't done so is not borne out by their past behavior.

Sorry, but you are dead wrong when you say the POTUS and his party have or had minimal influence.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 04:41 PM   #211
xjx388
Moderator
Moderator
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,154
Well, there’s really no use in arguing about alternative history. I think we can agree on that much.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 04:47 PM   #212
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,855
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I totally disagree with your downplaying of the party in power's influence.

Of course anti-vaxxers anti-maskers would still have existed but certainly not to the number they do now. Before this pandemic, did most Republicans scream about their 'freedoms' when it came to getting regular vaccines? No. It's THIS vaccine that they're screaming about and refuse to get because it's been so politicized.

It's the same for QAnon; sure they would have existed but not to the extent they do if Trump had publicly condemned them. They saw his silence as approval.

Fox would have repeated whatever Trump was saying just like they did. To say they would have downplayed the pandemic if Trump and the rest of the GOP hadn't done so is not borne out by their past behavior.

Sorry, but you are dead wrong when you say the POTUS and his party have or had minimal influence.
Other way round. 45's cabinet knew that to get the Tangerine Ballbag to say something they wanted said in public, they had to make Fox say it first. Because he never read his briefing notes drawings but was glued to the TV most of the time looking for stuff about himself, and that was the only way they could get their policy points into his porridge-filled skull.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 04:50 PM   #213
Shalamar
Dark Lord of the JREF
 
Shalamar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Somewhere Else
Posts: 5,433
I'll have to side with xjx388 for the most part.

Though I suspect things would have been worse under a Democratic administration. Not because they would have botched the response in any way, but because conservatives/republicans tend to distrust anything from the Democratic party.

More people would refuse rules over social distancing and masks, and would have turned down the vaccine, just because of the Democratic party promoting them.
__________________

"The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."
Shalamar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 05:02 PM   #214
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,036
the Trump admin wasn't promoting social distancing and mask mandates either way. but, under a Dem admin there would have been fewer federal judges appointed that would later strike down the individual state governor's mask mandates and social distancing requirements they tried to instate.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 05:06 PM   #215
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,410
Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
I'll have to side with xjx388 for the most part.

Though I suspect things would have been worse under a Democratic administration. Not because they would have botched the response in any way, but because conservatives/republicans tend to distrust anything from the Democratic party.

More people would refuse rules over social distancing and masks, and would have turned down the vaccine, just because of the Democratic party promoting them.
There's one major flaw in your assumption that things would have been worse because "conservatives/republicans tend to distrust anything from the Democratic party": the Dems would not have promoted misinformation and would have curtailed it on the internet much faster, there would have been no Trump to promote that distrust and no governors-Congressmembers Trump wannabes pushing it.

You also have to remember that there would have been no Trump cultists who are a huge part of the problem and more reasonable Republicans would have been less afraid, if afraid at all, to speak up about getting vaccinated, wearing masks, social distancing, etc. Without Trump and his extremist minions, there would have been less partisanship in the first place over this health problem.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 05:39 PM   #216
Shalamar
Dark Lord of the JREF
 
Shalamar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Somewhere Else
Posts: 5,433
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
There's one major flaw in your assumption that things would have been worse because "conservatives/republicans tend to distrust anything from the Democratic party": the Dems would not have promoted misinformation and would have curtailed it on the internet much faster, there would have been no Trump to promote that distrust and no governors-Congressmembers Trump wannabes pushing it.

You also have to remember that there would have been no Trump cultists who are a huge part of the problem and more reasonable Republicans would have been less afraid, if afraid at all, to speak up about getting vaccinated, wearing masks, social distancing, etc. Without Trump and his extremist minions, there would have been less partisanship in the first place over this health problem.
My wife stated the same thing. I'm edging back a bit.
__________________

"The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."
Shalamar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 05:52 PM   #217
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,410
Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
My wife stated the same thing. I'm edging back a bit.
Wise woman.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 06:05 PM   #218
xjx388
Moderator
Moderator
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,154
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
There's one major flaw in your assumption that things would have been worse because "conservatives/republicans tend to distrust anything from the Democratic party": the Dems would not have promoted misinformation and would have curtailed it on the internet much faster, there would have been no Trump to promote that distrust and no governors-Congressmembers Trump wannabes pushing it.

You also have to remember that there would have been no Trump cultists who are a huge part of the problem and more reasonable Republicans would have been less afraid, if afraid at all, to speak up about getting vaccinated, wearing masks, social distancing, etc. Without Trump and his extremist minions, there would have been less partisanship in the first place over this health problem.

You’d have to assume that these people just popped into existence when Trump became President. They didn’t, they were there the whole time and would have been there if Clinton was elected.

They would have fought Clinton as hard if not harder than they fought Obama. The “mah freedumb” crowd would react against mask mandates, vaccine passports etc with perhaps, IMHO, more vigor.

The Dems wouldn’t have curtailed online misinformation because they have no power to do so. I think that would have played out pretty much like it did with the added flavor of the whole “Killary” thing.

And a Dem administration would have made their own mistakes too. They are making them now -the whole “no masks if you are vaccinated” thing was a mistake and directly lead us to where we are now.

I guess my fundamental point is that the pandemic is a human behavior thing much more than it’s a political thing. The US has a bunch of people in it that won’t do the right thing -scientifically- no matter who is in office.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 06:41 PM   #219
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,410
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You’d have to assume that these people just popped into existence when Trump became President. They didn’t, they were there the whole time and would have been there if Clinton was elected.

They would have fought Clinton as hard if not harder than they fought Obama. The “mah freedumb” crowd would react against mask mandates, vaccine passports etc with perhaps, IMHO, more vigor.

The Dems wouldn’t have curtailed online misinformation because they have no power to do so. I think that would have played out pretty much like it did with the added flavor of the whole “Killary” thing.

And a Dem administration would have made their own mistakes too. They are making them now -the whole “no masks if you are vaccinated” thing was a mistake and directly lead us to where we are now.

I guess my fundamental point is that the pandemic is a human behavior thing much more than it’s a political thing. The US has a bunch of people in it that won’t do the right thing -scientifically- no matter who is in office.
Umm..no. Yes, they were there but they have been whipped into a frenzy by Trump for the last few years. If Republicans...and there are sensible ones, especially without a Trump variable...had done as I think a lot of them would have as explained already, that would have been removed. Face it, Republican politicians are scared ****less by Trump going after them.

The Dems would have pressured FB to remove misinformation sites much faster than the GOP did.

"...the whole “no masks if you are vaccinated” thing was a mistake and directly lead us to where we are now."

Oh, man! THAT is what led us to where we are now and not the idiots who won't get vaccinated?


"the pandemic is a human behavior thing much more than it’s a political thing. "

No, it's not. Americans didn't act like this during the polio epidemics or the 1918 flu pandemic. Covid is a political phenomenon.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 06:54 PM   #220
Susheel
Master Poster
 
Susheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 2,416
The thing is that while there is no doubt that there was this strong undercurrent of bigotry, antiscience, white supremacist, anti-empathy sentiments in the USA, Trump actually validated and enabled the people to act on these. That was Trump's legacy to the collective American experience. The people felt they could now act out their wild west fantasies with impunity.
__________________
I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon
Susheel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 06:59 PM   #221
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,410
Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
The thing is that while there is no doubt that there was this strong undercurrent of bigotry, antiscience, white supremacist, anti-empathy sentiments in the USA, Trump actually validated and enabled the people to act on these. That was Trump's legacy to the collective American experience. The people felt they could now act out their wild west fantasies with impunity.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 07:15 PM   #222
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,543
Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
The thing is that while there is no doubt that there was this strong undercurrent of bigotry, antiscience, white supremacist, anti-empathy sentiments in the USA, Trump actually validated and enabled the people to act on these. That was Trump's legacy to the collective American experience. The people felt they could now act out their wild west fantasies with impunity.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post


This is what I despise about Trump more than anything else.

It use to be that being any of these things was socially unacceptable. Even if they felt this way from time to time people usually wouldn't say that awful unsympathetic or racist remark.

Trump made it okay for people's inner sociopath to be public. It's like their proud of that behavior now.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 07:35 PM   #223
Susheel
Master Poster
 
Susheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 2,416
Countdown to claims that Trump actually decriminalized thought crimes...starting now...
__________________
I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon

Last edited by Susheel; 30th August 2021 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Damn autocorrect decides to complete words on its own terms.
Susheel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 07:47 PM   #224
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,543
Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Countdown to claims that Trump actually decriminalization thought crimes...starting now...
10, 9, 8, 7

Yes, that's what they'll say. That being openly rude, boorish, misogynistic and racist should be okay in polite conversation.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 08:50 PM   #225
Solitaire
Neoclinus blanchardi
 
Solitaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,600
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
If I were allowed to ignore the "as a Democrat" qualifier,
this would be such an easy question. As it stands,
I'll leave it to the moderates (use scare quotes here) to answer.

Well if we're going to flex the question just a tiny little bit.


Which would you choose?

(A) Trump still ruling in a second term with twice the current death toll from covid in the United States.

Or...

(B) Hillary as president with nearly everyone vaccinated and fewer than a thousand deaths in total.
__________________
Currently thinking up a new signature line.
Solitaire is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 12:59 AM   #226
Warp12
Master Poster
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,548
Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
Well if we're going to flex the question just a tiny little bit.


Which would you choose?

(A) Trump still ruling in a second term with twice the current death toll from covid in the United States.

Or...

(B) Hillary as president with nearly everyone vaccinated and fewer than a thousand deaths in total.
I would choose option (B). Even though I am not fond of Clinton.

See how easy that was?
__________________
“The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.” - Confucius

Last edited by Warp12; 31st August 2021 at 01:00 AM.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 01:13 AM   #227
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,410
Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
Well if we're going to flex the question just a tiny little bit.


Which would you choose?

(A) Trump still ruling in a second term with twice the current death toll from covid in the United States.

Or...

(B) Hillary as president with nearly everyone vaccinated and fewer than a thousand deaths in total.
B. But then again, Hillary isn't a mentally ill sociopath who would destroy American democracy for her own narcissistic ends. No Sophie's Choice here.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 03:26 AM   #228
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,939
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Well, there’s really no use in arguing about alternative history. I think we can agree on that much.
You obviously don't frequent alternatehistory.com...
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 03:40 AM   #229
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,939
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No, it's not. Americans didn't act like this during the polio epidemics or the 1918 flu pandemic. Covid is a political phenomenon.
Actually some of them did. There was 'mask resistance' during the 'Spanish 'flu' pandemic, it was merely handled more firmly (with the occasional shooting).

The polio vaccine likewise faced opposition on 'moral' and 'health' grounds, but this was less intense because of several factors:
1. Polio had significant, visible, effects. The USA saw more than thirty thousand people disabled annually from PM; people knew those effected, and saw the effects of polio. Though the death rate was actually lower (perhaps 3,000 per year in the early '50s)
2. There was less "anti-science" hysteria in those days. Politicians hadn't deliberately instigated such nonsense.
3. The campaign for vaccination was better organised, the March of Dimes for example and the involvement of celebrities like Elvis Presley.

It's not new; the UK Vaccination Acts of 1853 and 1867 were met with immediate resistance (from the usual suspects demanding the right to control their bodies and those of their children) and there were several anti-vaccination leagues formed. Demonstrations were held and Jenner was burned in effigy.
There were similar groups and activities in the US, the Jacobson saga for example.

More recently there was fervent opposition to DPT, leading to hundreds of deaths of children, in the 1970-1995 period. Then there was the campaign of anti-MMR lies.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 03:42 AM   #230
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,939
Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
The thing is that while there is no doubt that there was this strong undercurrent of bigotry, antiscience, white supremacist, anti-empathy sentiments in the USA, Trump actually validated and enabled the people to act on these. That was Trump's legacy to the collective American experience. The people felt they could now act out their wild west fantasies with impunity.
No argument.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 04:43 AM   #231
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,390
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The US has a bunch of people in it that won’t do the right thing -scientifically- no matter who is in office.
Your argument that such people are not led is undermined by them currently taking medicine meant for sheep.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 05:09 AM   #232
Lurch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,849
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Mind you, I’m not saying the Prez has no influence. I’m just saying it’s minimal and there are other factors that matter more.
For such an unimportant position of little influence there's a lot of money, energy, angst and criming expended on hoisting the aspirant to harness. I mean, for such an ineffectual station, why not just abolish it?
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 05:20 AM   #233
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
 
Butter!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 7,633
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I would choose option (B). Even though I am not fond of Clinton.

See how easy that was?
You still have to think about what happens next, though. In the short term, of course I would choose any candidate who would have gotten the pandemic under better control, even one as repellant to me personally as Donald Trump.

BUT if the next thing said candidate does is foment social disruption that leads to the fall of democracy, then it's not much of a choice to me. And Trump's disciples were already doing that **** well before the pandemic. Qanon was huge, the media was "the enemy of the people," the 2020 election was suspicious before it ever began, our allies were cucks and dictators were chads. None of that required a pandemic, but Trump was a pretty central figure to much of it. The pandemic just cranked everything up to 11.

That's why I'm finding it so difficult to answer your question in a direct fashion, not because I refuse to admit that I'd ever prefer Trump under any circumstances. If things were completely different than how they are, of course I would. But it's just sort of an impossible hypothetical for me to envision, since my concerns about Trump and his fans are not confined to a vacuum.
__________________
Get these tribbles off the bridge

Last edited by Butter!; 31st August 2021 at 05:30 AM.
Butter! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 05:30 AM   #234
Susheel
Master Poster
 
Susheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 2,416
Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
<respectful snip>
And went on to promote quack treatments, diss the vaccine, and continues to enable and validate anti-maskers and anti-vaxers...apart from his early mis(non)management of the vaccine roll outs and required precautions.

I think there is enough to hold him atleast partly responsible for what were perfectly avoidable COVID deaths.
__________________
I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon

Last edited by Susheel; 31st August 2021 at 05:36 AM. Reason: ...and another thing...
Susheel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 05:55 AM   #235
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
 
Butter!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 7,633
Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
And went on to promote quack treatments, diss the vaccine, and continue to enable and validate anti-maskers and anti-vaxers...
Right, the pandemic just gave him a new area of life in which to create chaos. But he'd already been doing it in many other ways, and his fervent base was already way out of hand.

That's the thing with political figures. It's less about them, and more about what they inspire.
__________________
Get these tribbles off the bridge
Butter! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 06:40 AM   #236
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,855
Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
I think there is enough to hold him at least partly responsible for what were perfectly avoidable COVID deaths.
Not that Disaster Don cares one iota about any of the 600,000-plus COVID dead. They can't overturn the 2020 election, be appointed to positions of influence to help him, or get him re-elected in 2024. They didn't even fetch covfefe for him, can't attend any of his rallies money-scam events, and he certainly can't grift them any more. So he really doesn't give one flying **** about any of them at all. He is that sociopathic. That should be the obvious takeaway from this most recent interview.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 08:52 AM   #237
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,256
Covid-19 is the worse alternative

I do not remember my party affiliation; therefore, my response might or might not count. However (if some genie gave me the choice), I would prefer to see Trump in office than see Covid-19 in existence. Some months ago The Economist magazine estimated 10 million deaths worldwide from this disease, and there are other reasons, such as the disruption in the educational system, to wish Covid-19 out of existence. No one should take this comment as an endorsement of Trump. Basically, I agree with Matthew Best's answer on page 1.
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 31st August 2021 at 08:56 AM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 09:19 AM   #238
Susheel
Master Poster
 
Susheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 2,416
Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
I do not remember my party affiliation; therefore, my response might or might not count. However (if some genie gave me the choice), I would prefer to see Trump in office than see Covid-19 in existence. Some months ago The Economist magazine estimated 10 million deaths worldwide from this disease, and there are other reasons, such as the disruption in the educational system, to wish Covid-19 out of existence. No one should take this comment as an endorsement of Trump. Basically, I agree with Matthew Best's answer on page 1.
However, do you think that his mismanagement of the covid crisis is the only thing that stands against him?
__________________
I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon
Susheel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 09:28 AM   #239
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,256
One guy's opinion

Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
However, do you think that his mismanagement of the covid crisis is the only thing that stands against him?
No, although he did mishandle it by thinking of it only in terms of controlling the movement of people into and out of the country, to name one thing. An an example of something that I disliked about Trump, I personally abhor the sheer number of falsehoods that he told, and that is not the most consequential thing that he did wrong.
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 31st August 2021 at 09:40 AM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2021, 10:52 AM   #240
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,410
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Actually some of them did. There was 'mask resistance' during the 'Spanish 'flu' pandemic, it was merely handled more firmly (with the occasional shooting).

The polio vaccine likewise faced opposition on 'moral' and 'health' grounds, but this was less intense because of several factors:
1. Polio had significant, visible, effects. The USA saw more than thirty thousand people disabled annually from PM; people knew those effected, and saw the effects of polio. Though the death rate was actually lower (perhaps 3,000 per year in the early '50s)
2. There was less "anti-science" hysteria in those days. Politicians hadn't deliberately instigated such nonsense.
3. The campaign for vaccination was better organised, the March of Dimes for example and the involvement of celebrities like Elvis Presley.

It's not new; the UK Vaccination Acts of 1853 and 1867 were met with immediate resistance (from the usual suspects demanding the right to control their bodies and those of their children) and there were several anti-vaccination leagues formed. Demonstrations were held and Jenner was burned in effigy.
There were similar groups and activities in the US, the Jacobson saga for example.

More recently there was fervent opposition to DPT, leading to hundreds of deaths of children, in the 1970-1995 period. Then there was the campaign of anti-MMR lies.
Some resistance, yes. You always have ignorant, misinformed and just plain stupid people, but my point was that it wasn't anywhere near the pushback we're seeing over Covid. Most people complied with wearing masks:
https://www.history.com/news/1918-sp...ing-resistance

This is an excellent article on the history and causes of the anti-vax movement(s).

https://www.oah.org/tah/issues/2015/...on-resistance/
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:20 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.