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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 18th November 2019, 08:04 PM   #1681
Rolfe
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I've never seen such a photo, though that doesn't mean they don't exist. But I would imagine if someone was taking a selfie for use in a profile or something like that, and decided that a public lavatory was the best place to do it, they would probably try to avoid it being obvious that this was the case. They'd try for a plain background, and/or crop the picture. This is very different from the "hey look at me, I'm in the loo!" pictures I've been seeing taken by men. (Most of what I've seen has been obvious AGP flaunting of their success in occupying a women's space.)

But for goodness sake, what a fuss about a throwaway line, which wasn't even a claim of any sort, and was mainly there to point out that neither Fionne nor Miranda are women.
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Old 18th November 2019, 08:12 PM   #1682
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
But for goodness sake, what a fuss about a throwaway line, which wasn't even a claim of any sort, and was mainly there to point out that neither Fionne nor Miranda are women.
If you don't intend comments to be responded to, don't make them.
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Old 18th November 2019, 09:02 PM   #1683
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Nobody has exactly proved that women taking "look at me I'm in the loo!" selfies and posting them on social media is a commonplace occurrence mind you.

And all I said was that it wasn't something I'd ever seen. I can't copy/paste a quote from my phone but here's the link. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post12896402 Last paragraph. Please explain where the gotcha is that you're working so hard for.
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Old 19th November 2019, 05:29 AM   #1684
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So, in all seriousness, this is what's going on.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I present this thread as a discussion point.

https://twitter.com/LaraAdamsMille1/...19482928287745

I thought there were important points there, but nobody has picked up on this at all. But that's OK. However, the casual remark at the end seems to have generated an awful lot of controversy.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I've never yet seen a woman photograph herself inside a public bathroom of any description. What is it with men and mirror-selfies in the loo?

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's a common place for people of any sex to take photos. Your age is showing!

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I've seen more images of smug men posting selfies in the ladies loo than I care to count. ... I have never seen a single image posted online where a woman has photographed herself in the loo. Perhaps I follow the wrong accounts.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I fear your anecdote of selecting data fails to pass the bar of what constitutes evidence.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I fear you have mistaken a casual remark for a claim of some sort.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I hope everyone reading this thread assesses your remarks to the appropriate valuation.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I've never seen such a photo, though that doesn't mean they don't exist. ...

But for goodness sake, what a fuss about a throwaway line, which wasn't even a claim of any sort, and was mainly there to point out that neither Fionne nor Miranda are women.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If you don't intend comments to be responded to, don't make them.

So, I've seen a remarkable number of selfies posted online taken by men preening themselves in the ladies loo, also a few of men masturbating in the loo (not necessarily in the ladies), and never a single comparable one taken by a woman. I pass a remark to that effect, "what is it with men ans selfies in the loo?"

Apparently women might choose the lighting and the big mirrors in a public lavatory to take a well-lit selfie as a profile picture. Which woudn't be the same thing, but no evidence is produced. Apparently public toilets are a common place for people of both sexes to take pictures, but again no evidence is produced.

I passed as remark about what I'd observed. I'm perfectly happy to be corrected if anyone has any concrete evidence to the contrary, but no. My casual remark has taken on the quality of a pronouncement that has to be attacked and defended.

It's a common theme in this thread. Any off-colour behaviour by men that seems to be a primarily male trait, from child molestation to rooting through bins for discarded used sanitary products to posting selfies while preening in the now-colonised safe space of the opposite sex, somehow has to be turned around and presented as something women are just as likely to do.

It's not working. We see you.
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Old 19th November 2019, 05:34 AM   #1685
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Are you finished in there yet? How the bathroom selfie became so huge

Historically, the bathroom selfie used to be perceived as fairly cringeworthy. If you had to take a picture of yourself in the bathroom mirror, camera flash obscuring half your face, it implied you had no friends to do it for you. But the bathroom selfie has evolved – as the million-plus hashtagged Instagram bathroom selfies attest – a shower selfie also proves how good you look without makeup, sticking a leg out of bathtub bubbles gives you the chance to flash some flesh while pretending not to be too craven in your attention-seeking.
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Old 19th November 2019, 05:45 AM   #1686
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Oh, that's a different matter. I hadn't seen that. I still think the gloating "Look at me I'm in the female space" thing from the (usually newly-transitioned) AGPs is a bit creepy, but actual evidence is always good around here.

So bathroom selfies are a regular thing. Obviously I do follow the wrong accounts. (I have to confess I've never been near Instagram.) End of drama.
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Old 19th November 2019, 05:53 AM   #1687
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
So, in all seriousness, this is what's going on.




I thought there were important points there, but nobody has picked up on this at all. But that's OK. However, the casual remark at the end seems to have generated an awful lot of controversy.

























So, I've seen a remarkable number of selfies posted online taken by men preening themselves in the ladies loo, also a few of men masturbating in the loo (not necessarily in the ladies), and never a single comparable one taken by a woman. I pass a remark to that effect, "what is it with men ans selfies in the loo?"

Apparently women might choose the lighting and the big mirrors in a public lavatory to take a well-lit selfie as a profile picture. Which woudn't be the same thing, but no evidence is produced. Apparently public toilets are a common place for people of both sexes to take pictures, but again no evidence is produced.

I passed as remark about what I'd observed. I'm perfectly happy to be corrected if anyone has any concrete evidence to the contrary, but no. My casual remark has taken on the quality of a pronouncement that has to be attacked and defended.

It's a common theme in this thread. Any off-colour behaviour by men that seems to be a primarily male trait, from child molestation to rooting through bins for discarded used sanitary products to posting selfies while preening in the now-colonised safe space of the opposite sex, somehow has to be turned around and presented as something women are just as likely to do.

It's not working. We see you.
You are irrational on this subject. You constantly mistake your own views and experiences as being universal. You make pronouncements as if you are the spokesman for all women. When you are called on either of those things you say it was just a remark, and then you come back later trying to defend it by tying it back into your hysterical conspiracy theories about "colonization of women's spaces". You persist in relating bizarre fears like men stealing used sanitary products from public restrooms. This is not skepticism. Your personal hangups around the sexes should absolutely not be a factor in determining anyone else's civil rights.
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Old 19th November 2019, 05:56 AM   #1688
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh, that's a different matter. I hadn't seen that. I still think the gloating "Look at me I'm in the female space" thing from the (usually newly-transitioned) AGPs is a bit creepy, but actual evidence is always good around here.

So bathroom selfies are a regular thing. Obviously I do follow the wrong accounts. (I have to confess I've never been near Instagram.) End of drama.
You can't pronounce "end of drama" after a long diatribe including your persistent accusation that men are stealing used tampons from women's restrooms. That's not how this works. You can't walk back your outbursts.
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:06 AM   #1689
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Nobody has exactly proved that women taking "look at me I'm in the loo!" selfies and posting them on social media is a commonplace occurrence mind you.
It's not exactly the same thing, but the women at my yoga studio very often take photos of themselves in the changing rooms and post those photos online. I think it's a "look, I went to a yoga class today" thing. They are of course fully clothed in those photos.

We once had an incident where one woman was taking a selfie and another was getting changed and caught in the background of the photo. She got angry and told the first woman not to take photos of her undressing. The first replied that it wasn't a big deal.

I only heard about this some time afterward (from the woman who had been caught in the photo). Happily the photo taker doesn't come anymore otherwise I'd have had to deal with it.
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:28 AM   #1690
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You can't pronounce "end of drama" after a long diatribe including your persistent accusation that men are stealing used tampons from women's restrooms. That's not how this works. You can't walk back your outbursts.

Yes, I can. I wasn't the one that provoked the long diatribe. You were the one who demented on and on without producing any evidence for your position. See how easy it is when you provide the evidence?
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:34 AM   #1691
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yes, I can. I wasn't the one that provoked the long diatribe. You were the one who demented on and on without producing any evidence for your position. See how easy it is when you provide the evidence?
Ok, Boomer!
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:50 AM   #1692
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I accept your apology.
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:55 AM   #1693
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I accept your apology.
Yeah, that's what happened. You have a clear and cogent grasp of things. Amazing you have the time, what with your shifts in the ladies room guarding the trash from fake transwomen conspiring to steal used tampons, and other "colonization" activity.
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:59 AM   #1694
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Sorry, TM, I gotta go with Rolfe on this one. She expressed something about her personal unfamiliarity with a genre of selfie. Whatever the commonality of that genre, there was never any reason to doubt her expression of her own experience regarding it.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:02 AM   #1695
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sorry, TM, I gotta go with Rolfe on this one. She expressed something about her personal unfamiliarity with a genre of selfie. Whatever the commonality of that genre, there was never any reason to doubt her expression of her own experience regarding it.
The point was that Rolfe consistently mistakes her own experience and views as universal. This is a severe failing in anyone claiming to be skeptical. When married to the habit of making pronouncements as if the designated spokesman for an entire country or sex it becomes risible.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:19 AM   #1696
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The point was that Rolfe consistently mistakes her own experience and views as universal.
You picked a bad example to try to illustrate that point.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:22 AM   #1697
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sorry, TM, I gotta go with Rolfe on this one. She expressed something about her personal unfamiliarity with a genre of selfie. Whatever the commonality of that genre, there was never any reason to doubt her expression of her own experience regarding it.

Having seen the "bathroom selfie" article in the Guardian I'm inclined to think that the preening AGP "look at me in the ladies!" selfies are not actually quite as creepy as I thought they were. I still think JY is beyond creepy though.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:22 AM   #1698
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The point was that Rolfe consistently mistakes her own experience and views as universal. This is a severe failing in anyone claiming to be skeptical. When married to the habit of making pronouncements as if the designated spokesman for an entire country or sex it becomes risible.
Not half as risible as a person claiming to be skeptical posting "ok boomer."
Edited by Agatha:  Edited for breach of rule 0 and rule 12

Last edited by Agatha; 19th November 2019 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:24 AM   #1699
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You picked a bad example to try to illustrate that point.
It was merely the latest in two threads worth of examples. The straw and the camel. But I agree I wasted my effort: this thread cannot be salvaged for rationality because basic errors in thinking are tolerated as par for course when they come from one side of the argument.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:50 AM   #1700
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Selfies in the loo? You'll have seen women posting these online then?
I've had plenty of female friends send me photos in front of loo mirrors. It is unremarkably common for both sexes. I'd say in my circle of friends it is pretty much only the ladies that do this. Out at the theatre for example they'll post a funny photo with something like "musical is terrible, loading up with double double g&t at intervale" and the photo will show the mirror with several of them holding a couple of glasses each.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:52 AM   #1701
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As interesting as loo selfies may be, I want to call attention to Darat's post of yesterday. I thought it was pretty good. Hard liners on either side of the issue wouldn't be happy with it, but I think reasonable people could accept it. A lot of people call me a transphobe, but I don't think anyone would say that about Darat is a transphobe. Despite that, we share pretty much the same bottom line approach about what ought to be done.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:54 AM   #1702
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It was merely the latest in two threads worth of examples. The straw and the camel. But I agree I wasted my effort: this thread cannot be salvaged for rationality because basic errors in thinking are tolerated as par for course when they come from one side of the argument.
It takes a second sometimes for people to really grasp that they are biased. It's really hard to see your own bias, and it's...uncomfortable to readjust your thinking in light of this new info.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:58 AM   #1703
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
As interesting as loo selfies may be, I want to call attention to Darat's post of yesterday. I thought it was pretty good. Hard liners on either side of the issue wouldn't be happy with it, but I think reasonable people could accept it. A lot of people call me a transphobe, but I don't think anyone would say that about Darat is a transphobe. Despite that, we share pretty much the same bottom line approach about what ought to be done.
Would you mind linking to the post in question?
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:58 AM   #1704
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
As interesting as loo selfies may be, I want to call attention to Darat's post of yesterday. I thought it was pretty good. Hard liners on either side of the issue wouldn't be happy with it, but I think reasonable people could accept it. A lot of people call me a transphobe, but I don't think anyone would say that about Darat is a transphobe. Despite that, we share pretty much the same bottom line approach about what ought to be done.
This one?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1658

It sounds right to me, too. I don't think anyone would call me a transphobe, either. Some people might call me a "bad LGBTQ advocate", and others "not a real feminist", but I don't care about that at all.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:59 AM   #1705
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
As interesting as loo selfies may be, I want to call attention to Darat's post of yesterday. I thought it was pretty good. Hard liners on either side of the issue wouldn't be happy with it, but I think reasonable people could accept it. A lot of people call me a transphobe, but I don't think anyone would say that about Darat is a transphobe. Despite that, we share pretty much the same bottom line approach about what ought to be done.
Agreed. And to build on what theprestige was suggesting, perhaps the degree of accommodation to transpersons should scale with the degree of action they've taken to transition. Simply declare yourself the other sex? Okay, we'll address you by those pronouns but you don't get to use that bathroom. Have the surgery or hormones to change your body? Okay, that's commitment, welcome to the bathroom. Sports...sports set their own rules and circumstances, and while it sometimes sucks to be excluded nobody's actually owed a sporting career.
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:00 AM   #1706
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Would you mind linking to the post in question?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1658
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:04 AM   #1707
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Agreed. And to build on what theprestige was suggesting, perhaps the degree of accommodation to transpersons should scale with the degree of action they've taken to transition. Simply declare yourself the other sex? Okay, we'll address you by those pronouns but you don't get to use that bathroom. Have the surgery or hormones to change your body? Okay, that's commitment, welcome to the bathroom. Sports...sports set their own rules and circumstances, and while it sometimes sucks to be excluded nobody's actually owed a sporting career.
That sounds right to me, too.

eta:
Quote:
Sports...sports set their own rules and circumstances, and while it sometimes sucks to be excluded nobody's actually owed a sporting career.
OTHER employment discrimination needs to be addressed with equal rights laws, though.
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:10 AM   #1708
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I know you don't want to discuss definitions but I think definitions are what this is all about.

I have great sympathy for trans people, I can understand them just wanting to be themselves and they find it terrible when they can't be. I.e. a trans man being told they have to use the women's toilets.

I don't support the idea that one should be officially able to change their gender just by saying so, it isn't like changing a name.

If someone has as the case is currently in the UK been medically diagnosed and lived as their preferred gender for 2 years I think they should be able to have their gender officially changed.

The issue as I see it is then becomes a case of "what does it mean to officially change your gender?". And that is where various "rights" come into conflicts and it seems there is no way to make everyone 100% happy so whatever we come up with will result in no one being happy, the fine art of compromise.

Straight forward toilets? Your official gender should determine which you can use. Yes that will make some people uncomfortable but that's a "tough" from me. Going to the loo is just a bodily function.

Changing rooms such as in a sports venue? I would say you use the one you are most physically like, so if you are a trans man and still have female looking genitals you use the womens changing room, and vice a versa. Yes this make some people uncomfortable and others unhappy but that's another "tough" from me.

Sports? It is part of the entertainment industry so I say it is up to the private organisations involved to make their own calls. If some entertainments stop being fun for the participants or audiences they'll fade away and I am sure someone will innovate with something that captures people's attention.

Medically? That is based on your sex.

Services? Depends on what they are. So no no one should be forced to wax male genitals because they offer waxing of female genitals. But if it is say for getting your haircut then a trans person should be treated as per their official gender.
This is the post I referred to earlier.
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:13 AM   #1709
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post

OTHER employment discrimination needs to be addressed with equal rights laws, though.
Definitely. A lot of places you can still get fired for being Regular Gay, which seems crazy considering the spectrum of what's possible now. Regular Gay seems kind of dull by comparison!
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:43 AM   #1710
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Agreed as well. And anyways, some of Meadmaker’s and Joe’s posts might be mistaken for transphobic but Meadmaker’s clearly just thinking things through like anybody, and Joe is obviously some type of gender-luddite who actually treats everyone equitably in real life, so I might not like what he says but there’s no rule that people gotta say what I like.

Like, his entire brand of bile is just like banging on the table in front of a plate of kraft dinner going “they can’t make me call that mac and cheese because it isn’t mac and cheese!” while not actually objecting to kraft dinner at all.

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Old 19th November 2019, 09:10 AM   #1711
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've had plenty of female friends send me photos in front of loo mirrors. It is unremarkably common for both sexes. I'd say in my circle of friends it is pretty much only the ladies that do this. Out at the theatre for example they'll post a funny photo with something like "musical is terrible, loading up with double double g&t at intervale" and the photo will show the mirror with several of them holding a couple of glasses each.

Yes, Matthew posted a link to a Guardian article about it. I hadn't been aware of it, but I can see it is a thing in certain circles.
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:21 AM   #1712
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
This is the post I referred to earlier.
Thanks!

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Agreed. And to build on what theprestige was suggesting, perhaps the degree of accommodation to transpersons should scale with the degree of action they've taken to transition. Simply declare yourself the other sex? Okay, we'll address you by those pronouns but you don't get to use that bathroom. Have the surgery or hormones to change your body? Okay, that's commitment, welcome to the bathroom. Sports...sports set their own rules and circumstances, and while it sometimes sucks to be excluded nobody's actually owed a sporting career.
This seems about as good as reasonably possible, but it does have some trade-offs that should probably be recognized.

For these trade-offs, I assume that transgender people are dealing with a legitimate and stressful personal issue. I also assume that one thing that helps them is to try to accommodate their gender self-construct as much as (reasonably) possible.

We have to draw the line somewhere, and this seems to be more or less the right place to draw it. But consider:

Requiring proof of medical transition at any stage is going to make acceptance at that stage a regressive policy. Only people who can afford the procedure can enjoy the entitlement. This is going to be hard on transpeople who can't afford the procedure.

Requiring proof of transition to enter a women's space is also going to be problematic. It upends some existing legal and social norms. If a woman in the locker room demands to see another woman's transition paperwork, is that legitimate? Is the transwoman required to produce it on demand?
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:23 AM   #1713
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I think we'd have to simply rely upon the honor system. Papers and proof seems uncivil as well as impractical.
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:40 AM   #1714
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ok, Boomer!
Translation: I have no counterargument, I've momentarily forgotten what sort of forum this is, and I’ve been culturally conditioned to believe casual ageism is hip and cool.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think we'd have to simply rely upon the honor system. Papers and proof seems uncivil as well as impractical.
Is this not roughly how it works now? We rarely confront people in bathrooms and locker rooms, we’re mostly concerned with getting **** done.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
OTHER employment discrimination needs to be addressed with equal rights laws, though.
I think we can make a reasonable case that sex-segregated sport is just a subset of the more general BFOQWP exception.
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:40 AM   #1715
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I don't support the idea that one should be officially able to change their gender just by saying so, it isn't like changing a name.
What is the purpose of officially registered gender?

Quote:
Straight forward toilets? Your official gender should determine which you can use.
That will lead to many people -- including many cisgendered people -- being forced to show their ID just for going to the loo; especially women who a look a bit mannish. It can also lead to problems with tourists from other countries who may be registered as a third gender, or may not have any registered gender at all, as many countries are seriously considering doing away with gender registration entirely.

Quote:
Changing rooms such as in a sports venue? I would say you use the one you are most physically like, so if you are a trans man and still have female looking genitals you use the womens changing room, and vice a versa.
I think you define "most physically like" rather narrowly as what is between one's legs. It would mean that some would have to use a changing room in which they would look decidedly out of place just for having parts they are likely going to hide anyway.
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:45 AM   #1716
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think we'd have to simply rely upon the honor system. Papers and proof seems uncivil as well as impractical.
Yeah, that's kind of how it seems to me, too.

But that brings us back to the central concern: Removing the social and legal obstacles that make it difficult for harassing and abusive men to gain access to women's spaces. A pervert in a dress can get a lot of ogling done before someone gets up enough courage to challenge their standing.

On the other hand, I assume it's roughly the same problem women currently have with the occasional female pervert in the women's locker room.
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:57 AM   #1717
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah, that's kind of how it seems to me, too.

But that brings us back to the central concern: Removing the social and legal obstacles that make it difficult for harassing and abusive men to gain access to women's spaces. A pervert in a dress can get a lot of ogling done before someone gets up enough courage to challenge their standing.
I don't consider that a "central concern". I think it's paranoid hysteria. The solution is for those suffering from that to get over it, avoid public bathrooms, or instigate a squadron of guards to physically examine each prospective toilet-user to see if they meet stringent requirements for being officially classed as Sufficently Female Women. I'm sure the taxpayers would be willing to fund such a guard in order to protect their precious used tampons from being stolen!
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:59 AM   #1718
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yes, Matthew posted a link to a Guardian article about it. I hadn't been aware of it, but I can see it is a thing in certain circles.
"certain circles" meaning pretty much most people who take selfies.....
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:06 AM   #1719
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah, that's kind of how it seems to me, too.

But that brings us back to the central concern: Removing the social and legal obstacles that make it difficult for harassing and abusive men to gain access to women's spaces. A pervert in a dress can get a lot of ogling done before someone gets up enough courage to challenge their standing.

On the other hand, I assume it's roughly the same problem women currently have with the occasional female pervert in the women's locker room.
Darat had said:

Quote:
Straight forward toilets? Your official gender should determine which you can use. Yes that will make some people uncomfortable but that's a "tough" from me. Going to the loo is just a bodily function.

Changing rooms such as in a sports venue? I would say you use the one you are most physically like, so if you are a trans man and still have female looking genitals you use the womens changing room, and vice a versa. Yes this make some people uncomfortable and others unhappy but that's another "tough" from me.
There's no potential "ogling done" in a toilet stall.
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:10 AM   #1720
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
"certain circles" meaning pretty much most people who take selfies.....

The young of today...
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