[Continuation] Cancel culture IRL Part 2 - Page 53

JoeMorgue · 16th June 2022, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Who threatened to use force?

Why the evil concept of CANCEL CULTURE of course!

Stop being obtuse. And stop spending your time scouring the net for cherry picked examples of THINGS WHICH HAVE ALWAYS HAPPENED and presenting them as the new, scary, and totally non-existent concept of Cancel Culture.

wareyin · 16th June 2022, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Who threatened to use force?

Ah, intentional obstuseness is so cute when they're young, isn't it?

d4m10n · 16th June 2022, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Why the evil concept of CANCEL CULTURE of course!

I think it's important to point out that pressuring people to cancel public events (e.g. concerts, speaking tours) isn't usually about threatening use of force. I would hope that we'd already agree on whether it is okay to threaten force in such cases.

wareyin · 16th June 2022, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

I think it's important to point out that pressuring people to cancel public events (e.g. concerts, speaking tours) isn't usually about threatening use of force. I would hope that we'd already agree on whether it is okay to threaten force in such cases.

Oh, right, some people are robots who have never encountered the term for requiring someone to do something against their will: forcing them to

Used in a sentence: d4m10n is quite upset that Market Hotel wasn't forced to host a publicity stunt full of crap music.

johnny karate · 16th June 2022, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Another artist cancelled by popular backlash.

The streak of "cancel culture" hand-wringers picking just the absolute worst candidates to use as examples remains unbroken.

Darat · 16th June 2022, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Another artist cancelled by popular backlash.

Er which "popular backlash"? How do you know this is "cancel culture"?

d4m10n · 16th June 2022, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Er which "popular backlash"?

Search the NYT article for the word "backlash" and there you go.

Originally Posted by wareyin

d4m10n is quite upset that Market Hotel wasn't forced to host a publicity stunt full of crap music.

Strawman is filled with straw.

johnny karate · 16th June 2022, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Strawman is filled with straw.

Then what's the problem?

wareyin · 16th June 2022, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Search the NYT article for the word "backlash" and there you go.

pw;cs

paywalled, couldn't search

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Strawman is filled with straw.

How so? You offered up Market Hotel choosing not to host what they referred to as a "stunt" with crap music as an example of <dun dun duuuuuuun> Cancel Culture. If you are actually pleased that they were free to choose who to host, why did you bring the choice up?

JoeMorgue · 16th June 2022, 11:36 AM

I've decided that watching people get made at something they have absolutely no idea what it is is my new favorite thing.

johnny karate · 16th June 2022, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Another artist cancelled by popular backlash.

If you think this is bad, how do you think the people who didn't get to see the rest of the play after Lincoln was shot felt?

Darat · 16th June 2022, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Search the NYT article for the word "backlash" and there you go.

...snip...

You are being disingenuous, the only appearance of the word backlash is from this sentence:

"...was canceled on Wednesday by the venue, which cited fears of a backlash in a “dangerously radicalized, reactionary climate.”..."

"fears of a" not actually a backlash, popular or not.

Thinking about your description then your response to my question about it I can only conclude that you were intentionally lying.

gnome · 16th June 2022, 01:01 PM

(removed)

d4m10n · 16th June 2022, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

How so?

I never said Market Hotel should be forced to host the performance; that's a patently silly idea.

Originally Posted by wareyin

If you are actually pleased that they were free to choose who to host, why did you bring the choice up?

They made a free choice to host the event some time ago.

More recently, they canceled the event after facing backlash following Fox News stories about selling out the venue.

Originally Posted by Darat

Thinking about your description then your response to my question about it I can only conclude that you were intentionally lying.

Okay, how many examples of backlash do you need to see?

d4m10n · 16th June 2022, 02:03 PM

johnny karate · 16th June 2022, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Oh okay, the problem is that you don’t like free speech. Got it.

wareyin · 17th June 2022, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

I never said Market Hotel should be forced to host the performance; that's a patently silly idea.

Ok, so if they shouldn't be forced to host it, why the complaint about them choosing not to host it?

Originally Posted by d4m10n

They made a free choice to host the event some time ago.

Yes, and then they made the free choice not to host it more recently. You didn't complain about the first choice, but you compain about the second. So, what, is this just sour grapes because you really really wanted to see someone who attempted to kill a President play crappy music?

Originally Posted by d4m10n

More recently, they canceled the event after facing backlash following Fox News stories about selling out the venue.Okay, how many examples of backlash do you need to see?

Your examples of the horrendous backlash, while they may be painful for you to read, are kinda weak my man. "What other criminals are you headlining this summer after John Hinckley?" That's it. That's the entire tweet. Oh my ******* dog the furious backlash!

wareyin · 17th June 2022, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Did you notice the Market Hotel's responses to a couple of them pointing out how left leaning your supposed Fox News viewers are?

Darat · 17th June 2022, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

...snip...

More recently, they canceled the event after facing backlash following Fox News stories about selling out the venue.Okay, how many examples of backlash do you need to see?

Your dishonest moving of the goal posts should be quite apparent to anyone who has read the last few exchanges between us.

But to reiterate:

According to you I only need to "Search the NYT article for the word "backlash" and there you go." those are your words - and like I said when I did such a search I found one use of the word backlash and that wasn't talking about any actual backlash but a venue's fear of a potential backlash.

tyr_13 · 17th June 2022, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Your dishonest moving of the goal posts should be quite apparent to anyone who has read the last few exchanges between us.

But to reiterate:

According to you I only need to "Search the NYT article for the word "backlash" and there you go." those are your words - and like I said when I did such a search I found one use of the word backlash and that wasn't talking about any actual backlash but a venue's fear of a potential backlash.

If I were honestly arguing for the existence of a meaningfully problematic 'Cancel Culture', I would contend that the apprehension of potential blowback leading to self-censoring (or preemptive deplatforming) would be a powerful mechanism reeinforcing the 'culture'.

But then I wouldn't cite such weaksauce as 'guy who tried to assassinate a president doesn't get esteemed venues for his crappy music' for that.

For that, there are indeed plentiful examples in public schools, the medical profession, minority groups, and publicly traded companies, but those don't count because it's generally pressure (including actual violence) and outright government actions from right wing sources, so they...magically don't count. Cancel a belligerent transphobe, that's 'Cancel Culture', cancel Disney, cancel books, follow through on violent threats, and that's...just Tuesday.

d4m10n · 20th June 2022, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Oh okay, the problem is that you don’t like free speech. Got it.

There are some things we should be free to say, which we still ought to refrain from saying on moral grounds.

For example, "mRNA vaccines do more harm than good."

For another example, "Women ought to be submissive to their husbands."

For yet another example, "Andy should be fired because of Danielle's tweet."

d4m10n · 20th June 2022, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

According to you I only need to "Search the NYT article for the word "backlash" and there you go." those are your words - and like I said when I did such a search I found one use of the word backlash and that wasn't talking about any actual backlash but a venue's fear of a potential backlash.

That potential had already been actualized at the time of writing, since people had been publicly calling for the event to be canceled.

Is there some threshold the cancel culture warriors need to cross to count as "backlash" in your book? If so, that's fine, but we may well disagree.

d4m10n · 20th June 2022, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Cancel a belligerent transphobe, that's 'Cancel Culture', cancel Disney, cancel books, follow through on violent threats, and that's...just Tuesday.

I'm not sure why you'd think that those latter examples don't count in the minds of anyone participating here.

Darat · 21st June 2022, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

There are some things we should be free to say, which we still ought to refrain from saying on moral grounds.

...snip...

And who decides on what ought not to be said?

And if there is no consequences for "ought not" why shouldn't someone say the things you have decided shouldn't be said?

Darat · 21st June 2022, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

That potential had already been actualized at the time of writing, since people had been publicly calling for the event to be canceled.

Is there some threshold the cancel culture warriors need to cross to count as "backlash" in your book? If so, that's fine, but we may well disagree.

Doesn't get past your dishonest answer, as I said we can see you moving those goalposts.

Darat · 21st June 2022, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

I'm not sure why you'd think that those latter examples don't count in the minds of anyone participating here.

"latter" is not precise - which ones?

1)Cancel a belligerent transphobe
2) cancel Disney
3) cancel books
4)follow through on violent threats

Which are the latter examples you are referring to?

catsmate · 21st June 2022, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Okay here are just a handful of examples of backlash against the venue which presumably lead to the cancelation announcement yesterday.

wareyin · 21st June 2022, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Okay here are just a handful of examples of backlash against the venue which presumably lead to the cancelation announcement yesterday.

What, you think it's bad form to assume your conclusion or something?

JoeMorgue · 21st June 2022, 09:20 AM

////

d4m10n · 21st June 2022, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Which are the latter examples you are referring to?

The last three.

Originally Posted by Darat

And who decides on what ought not to be said?

Individual speakers have to decide for themselves. I'd encourage people to think twice before piling on to someone who is being publicly shamed, especially if all you have to go from is a tweet from a moral entrepreneur^WP such as the one in the OP.

d4m10n · 21st June 2022, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

What, you think it's bad form to assume your conclusion or something?

The venue explained their reasons in this post. They don't say exactly where the public "outrage and concern" is coming from, but it does appear to be a major factor in their decision making process.

d4m10n · 21st June 2022, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

////

???

wareyin · 21st June 2022, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

The venue explained their reasons in this post. They don't say exactly where the public "outrage and concern" is coming from, but it does appear to be a major factor in their decision making process.

They don't say, but you assume the cause anyway, and then use your assumption as proof that what you assume was the cause actually was the cause. Yay, who could argue with such logic?

eta: damn but they point out over and over that it's crappy music, the "artist" couldn't sell tickets based on the music, the "artist" hadn't earned the right to play their small community stage, and the event doesn't matter anyway. If this is the best you can find to prove how awful CANCEL CULTURE is, I'm underwhelmed

Darat · 21st June 2022, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

The last three.

Individual speakers have to decide for themselves. I'd encourage people to think twice before piling on to someone who is being publicly shamed, especially if all you have to go from is a tweet from a moral entrepreneur^WP such as the one in the OP.

You are now saying there is no ought not things to say.

d4m10n · 21st June 2022, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

You are now saying there is no ought not things to say.

I would hope that we'd both agree that it is wrong to make demonstrably false statements which foreseeably lead to physical harm, e.g. "Ivermectin is safer and more effective against coronaviruses than mRNA vaccines."

We may well disagree on the underlying metaethics, but we should agree on the idea that people should feel morally obligated not to say such things, even when the state refuses to sanction them.

d4m10n · 21st June 2022, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

eta: damn but they point out over and over that it's crappy music, the "artist" couldn't sell tickets based on the music, the "artist" hadn't earned the right to play their small community stage, and the event doesn't matter anyway.

These reasons all existed prior to the initial booking, except for the tickets bit which is impossible to know without surveying the ticket holders.

The only thing that obviously changed was the online outrage directed against the venue, characterized in some outlets as backlash.

Darat · 22nd June 2022, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

These reasons all existed prior to the initial booking, except for the tickets bit which is impossible to know without surveying the ticket holders.

The only thing that obviously changed was the online outrage directed against the venue, characterized in some outlets as backlash.

But not in the one you claimed it did.

wareyin · 22nd June 2022, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

These reasons all existed prior to the initial booking, except for the tickets bit which is impossible to know without surveying the ticket holders.

The only thing that obviously changed was the online outrage directed against the venue, characterized in some outlets as backlash.

Are you certain that the online outrage was the only thing that changed? Are you even certain that there was a significant backlash? Yeah, we have articles claiming that Market Hotel claimed there was, but judging by your selection of milquetoast tweets, where we know you were picking the absolute worst of the worst that you could find to prove your point, I'm not seeing it.

It's just as likely that the venue who admitted to booking the show as a stunt then realized they could make a bigger name for themselves by cancelling because of unspecified feelings of unsafeness in "the community". You know, another stunt. And then, folks like you with an ax to grind just...uncritically took them at face value because 'of course this thing that you haven't been able to describe or find good examples of is this huge existing and existential problem, and if you both assume that it is a problem and that this is an example of it then you can use it to prove that it happens'...ya know, the whole assuming the conclusion you've been caught doing already?

tyr_13 · 22nd June 2022, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

I'm not sure why you'd think that those latter examples don't count in the minds of anyone participating here.

...because I've read the thread?

People have variously argued that illegal actions are a different category, and that government actions are likewise not the phenomena under discussion.

It would not surprise me in the least if on searching back you specifically argued one or more of those points.

d4m10n · 22nd June 2022, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

People have variously argued that illegal actions are a different category, and that government actions are likewise not the phenomena under discussion.

I'd say it's generally worthwhile to distinguish between problems which can be fixed by changing policy and problems which can really only be fixed by changing minds. The various (attempted) cancellations I've talked about fall into the second category, since there isn't a conceivable policy change anywhere near the Overton window which would prevent them from happening.

ETA: Cancelling Disney is classic conservative cancel culture, I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that one before.

ETA2: Cancelling books (e.g. American Dirt) strikes me as a fine example of cancel culture as well.

16th June 2022, 09:52 AM	#2081
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,099	Originally Posted by d4m10n Who threatened to use force? Why the evil concept of CANCEL CULTURE of course! Stop being obtuse. And stop spending your time scouring the net for cherry picked examples of THINGS WHICH HAVE ALWAYS HAPPENED and presenting them as the new, scary, and totally non-existent concept of Cancel Culture.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

16th June 2022, 10:01 AM	#2083
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 10,504	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Why the evil concept of CANCEL CULTURE of course! I think it's important to point out that pressuring people to cancel public events (e.g. concerts, speaking tours) isn't usually about threatening use of force. I would hope that we'd already agree on whether it is okay to threaten force in such cases.
	__________________ Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.

16th June 2022, 10:20 AM	#2085
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 16,090	Originally Posted by d4m10n Another artist cancelled by popular backlash. The streak of "cancel culture" hand-wringers picking just the absolute worst candidates to use as examples remains unbroken.
	Last edited by johnny karate; 16th June 2022 at 10:22 AM.

16th June 2022, 10:26 AM	#2086
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,135	Originally Posted by d4m10n Another artist cancelled by popular backlash. Er which "popular backlash"? How do you know this is "cancel culture"?
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16th June 2022, 10:34 AM	#2087
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 10,504	Originally Posted by Darat Er which "popular backlash"? Search the NYT article for the word "backlash" and there you go. Originally Posted by wareyin d4m10n is quite upset that Market Hotel wasn't forced to host a publicity stunt full of crap music. Strawman is filled with straw.
	__________________ Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it. Last edited by d4m10n; 16th June 2022 at 10:36 AM.

16th June 2022, 09:53 AM	#2082
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,451	Originally Posted by d4m10n Who threatened to use force? Ah, intentional obstuseness is so cute when they're young, isn't it?

16th June 2022, 10:11 AM	#2084
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,451	Originally Posted by d4m10n I think it's important to point out that pressuring people to cancel public events (e.g. concerts, speaking tours) isn't usually about threatening use of force. I would hope that we'd already agree on whether it is okay to threaten force in such cases. Oh, right, some people are robots who have never encountered the term for requiring someone to do something against their will: forcing them to Used in a sentence: d4m10n is quite upset that Market Hotel wasn't forced to host a publicity stunt full of crap music.

16th June 2022, 10:37 AM	#2088
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 16,090	Originally Posted by d4m10n Strawman is filled with straw. Then what's the problem?

16th June 2022, 10:50 AM	#2089
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,451	Originally Posted by d4m10n Search the NYT article for the word "backlash" and there you go. pw;cs paywalled, couldn't search Originally Posted by d4m10n Strawman is filled with straw. How so? You offered up Market Hotel choosing not to host what they referred to as a "stunt" with crap music as an example of <dun dun duuuuuuun> Cancel Culture. If you are actually pleased that they were free to choose who to host, why did you bring the choice up?

16th June 2022, 11:36 AM	#2090
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,099	I've decided that watching people get made at something they have absolutely no idea what it is is my new favorite thing.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

16th June 2022, 11:40 AM	#2091
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 16,090	Originally Posted by d4m10n Another artist cancelled by popular backlash. If you think this is bad, how do you think the people who didn't get to see the rest of the play after Lincoln was shot felt?

16th June 2022, 11:55 AM	#2092
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,135	Originally Posted by d4m10n Search the NYT article for the word "backlash" and there you go. ...snip... You are being disingenuous, the only appearance of the word backlash is from this sentence: "...was canceled on Wednesday by the venue, which cited fears of a backlash in a “dangerously radicalized, reactionary climate.”..." "fears of a" not actually a backlash, popular or not. Thinking about your description then your response to my question about it I can only conclude that you were intentionally lying.
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16th June 2022, 01:01 PM	#2093
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,575	(removed)
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16th June 2022, 01:22 PM	#2094
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 10,504	Originally Posted by wareyin How so? I never said Market Hotel should be forced to host the performance; that's a patently silly idea. Originally Posted by wareyin If you are actually pleased that they were free to choose who to host, why did you bring the choice up? They made a free choice to host the event some time ago. More recently, they canceled the event after facing backlash following Fox News stories about selling out the venue. Originally Posted by Darat Thinking about your description then your response to my question about it I can only conclude that you were intentionally lying. Okay, how many examples of backlash do you need to see?
	__________________ Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it. Last edited by d4m10n; 16th June 2022 at 02:04 PM.

16th June 2022, 02:03 PM	#2095
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 10,504	Okay here are just a handful of examples of backlash against the venue which presumably lead to the cancelation announcement yesterday. https://twitter.com/mattfortgang1/st...70878660509707 https://twitter.com/LoriSmith_Art/st...82107362725890 https://twitter.com/JESimoneaux1/sta...78511676723200 https://twitter.com/ROBINDR18292908/...97983137062914 https://twitter.com/419Quinn/status/1532033503583510540 https://twitter.com/karenlc55/status...00416177643526 https://twitter.com/gmacfreeme12/sta...17673062518785 https://twitter.com/ShadowwBan/statu...70207565971476 I assume there's actually a lot more to it than this, since Fox News enjoyers tend to prefer email over tweets.
	__________________ Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.

16th June 2022, 02:31 PM	#2096
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 16,090	Originally Posted by d4m10n Okay here are just a handful of examples of backlash against the venue which presumably lead to the cancelation announcement yesterday. https://twitter.com/mattfortgang1/st...70878660509707 https://twitter.com/LoriSmith_Art/st...82107362725890 https://twitter.com/JESimoneaux1/sta...78511676723200 https://twitter.com/ROBINDR18292908/...97983137062914 https://twitter.com/419Quinn/status/1532033503583510540 https://twitter.com/karenlc55/status...00416177643526 https://twitter.com/gmacfreeme12/sta...17673062518785 https://twitter.com/ShadowwBan/statu...70207565971476 I assume there's actually a lot more to it than this, since Fox News enjoyers tend to prefer email over tweets. Oh okay, the problem is that you don’t like free speech. Got it.

17th June 2022, 05:34 AM	#2097
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,451	Originally Posted by d4m10n I never said Market Hotel should be forced to host the performance; that's a patently silly idea. Ok, so if they shouldn't be forced to host it, why the complaint about them choosing not to host it? Originally Posted by d4m10n They made a free choice to host the event some time ago. Yes, and then they made the free choice not to host it more recently. You didn't complain about the first choice, but you compain about the second. So, what, is this just sour grapes because you really really wanted to see someone who attempted to kill a President play crappy music? Originally Posted by d4m10n More recently, they canceled the event after facing backlash following Fox News stories about selling out the venue.Okay, how many examples of backlash do you need to see? Your examples of the horrendous backlash, while they may be painful for you to read, are kinda weak my man. "What other criminals are you headlining this summer after John Hinckley?" That's it. That's the entire tweet. Oh my ******* dog the furious backlash!

17th June 2022, 05:36 AM	#2098
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,451	Originally Posted by d4m10n Okay here are just a handful of examples of backlash against the venue which presumably lead to the cancelation announcement yesterday. https://twitter.com/mattfortgang1/st...70878660509707 https://twitter.com/LoriSmith_Art/st...82107362725890 https://twitter.com/JESimoneaux1/sta...78511676723200 https://twitter.com/ROBINDR18292908/...97983137062914 https://twitter.com/419Quinn/status/1532033503583510540 https://twitter.com/karenlc55/status...00416177643526 https://twitter.com/gmacfreeme12/sta...17673062518785 https://twitter.com/ShadowwBan/statu...70207565971476 I assume there's actually a lot more to it than this, since Fox News enjoyers tend to prefer email over tweets. Did you notice the Market Hotel's responses to a couple of them pointing out how left leaning your supposed Fox News viewers are?

17th June 2022, 06:02 AM	#2099
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,135	Originally Posted by d4m10n ...snip... More recently, they canceled the event after facing backlash following Fox News stories about selling out the venue.Okay, how many examples of backlash do you need to see? Your dishonest moving of the goal posts should be quite apparent to anyone who has read the last few exchanges between us. But to reiterate: According to you I only need to "Search the NYT article for the word "backlash" and there you go." those are your words - and like I said when I did such a search I found one use of the word backlash and that wasn't talking about any actual backlash but a venue's fear of a potential backlash.
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17th June 2022, 08:58 AM	#2100
tyr_13 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 17,537	Originally Posted by Darat Your dishonest moving of the goal posts should be quite apparent to anyone who has read the last few exchanges between us. But to reiterate: According to you I only need to "Search the NYT article for the word "backlash" and there you go." those are your words - and like I said when I did such a search I found one use of the word backlash and that wasn't talking about any actual backlash but a venue's fear of a potential backlash. If I were honestly arguing for the existence of a meaningfully problematic 'Cancel Culture', I would contend that the apprehension of potential blowback leading to self-censoring (or preemptive deplatforming) would be a powerful mechanism reeinforcing the 'culture'. But then I wouldn't cite such weaksauce as 'guy who tried to assassinate a president doesn't get esteemed venues for his crappy music' for that. For that, there are indeed plentiful examples in public schools, the medical profession, minority groups, and publicly traded companies, but those don't count because it's generally pressure (including actual violence) and outright government actions from right wing sources, so they...magically don't count. Cancel a belligerent transphobe, that's 'Cancel Culture', cancel Disney, cancel books, follow through on violent threats, and that's...just Tuesday.
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20th June 2022, 05:24 PM	#2101
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 10,504	Originally Posted by johnny karate Oh okay, the problem is that you don’t like free speech. Got it. There are some things we should be free to say, which we still ought to refrain from saying on moral grounds. For example, "mRNA vaccines do more harm than good." For another example, "Women ought to be submissive to their husbands." For yet another example, "Andy should be fired because of Danielle's tweet."
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20th June 2022, 05:26 PM	#2102
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 10,504	Originally Posted by Darat According to you I only need to "Search the NYT article for the word "backlash" and there you go." those are your words - and like I said when I did such a search I found one use of the word backlash and that wasn't talking about any actual backlash but a venue's fear of a potential backlash. That potential had already been actualized at the time of writing, since people had been publicly calling for the event to be canceled. Is there some threshold the cancel culture warriors need to cross to count as "backlash" in your book? If so, that's fine, but we may well disagree.
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20th June 2022, 05:28 PM	#2103
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 10,504	Originally Posted by tyr_13 Cancel a belligerent transphobe, that's 'Cancel Culture', cancel Disney, cancel books, follow through on violent threats, and that's...just Tuesday. I'm not sure why you'd think that those latter examples don't count in the minds of anyone participating here.
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21st June 2022, 06:45 AM	#2104
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,135	Originally Posted by d4m10n There are some things we should be free to say, which we still ought to refrain from saying on moral grounds. ...snip... And who decides on what ought not to be said? And if there is no consequences for "ought not" why shouldn't someone say the things you have decided shouldn't be said?
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21st June 2022, 06:46 AM	#2105
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,135	Originally Posted by d4m10n That potential had already been actualized at the time of writing, since people had been publicly calling for the event to be canceled. Is there some threshold the cancel culture warriors need to cross to count as "backlash" in your book? If so, that's fine, but we may well disagree. Doesn't get past your dishonest answer, as I said we can see you moving those goalposts.
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21st June 2022, 06:48 AM	#2106
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,135	Originally Posted by d4m10n I'm not sure why you'd think that those latter examples don't count in the minds of anyone participating here. "latter" is not precise - which ones? 1)Cancel a belligerent transphobe 2) cancel Disney 3) cancel books 4)follow through on violent threats Which are the latter examples you are referring to?
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21st June 2022, 08:45 AM	#2107
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,116	Originally Posted by d4m10n Okay here are just a handful of examples of backlash against the venue which presumably lead to the cancelation announcement yesterday.
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21st June 2022, 09:19 AM	#2108
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,451	Originally Posted by catsmate Originally Posted by d4m10n Okay here are just a handful of examples of backlash against the venue which presumably lead to the cancelation announcement yesterday. What, you think it's bad form to assume your conclusion or something?

21st June 2022, 09:20 AM	#2109
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,099	////
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21st June 2022, 12:15 PM	#2110
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 10,504	Originally Posted by Darat Which are the latter examples you are referring to? The last three. Originally Posted by Darat And who decides on what ought not to be said? Individual speakers have to decide for themselves. I'd encourage people to think twice before piling on to someone who is being publicly shamed, especially if all you have to go from is a tweet from a moral entrepreneur^WP such as the one in the OP.
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21st June 2022, 12:20 PM	#2111
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 10,504	Originally Posted by wareyin What, you think it's bad form to assume your conclusion or something? The venue explained their reasons in this post. They don't say exactly where the public "outrage and concern" is coming from, but it does appear to be a major factor in their decision making process.
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21st June 2022, 12:30 PM	#2112
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 10,504	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue //// ???
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21st June 2022, 12:38 PM	#2113
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,451	Originally Posted by d4m10n The venue explained their reasons in this post. They don't say exactly where the public "outrage and concern" is coming from, but it does appear to be a major factor in their decision making process. They don't say, but you assume the cause anyway, and then use your assumption as proof that what you assume was the cause actually was the cause. Yay, who could argue with such logic? eta: damn but they point out over and over that it's crappy music, the "artist" couldn't sell tickets based on the music, the "artist" hadn't earned the right to play their small community stage, and the event doesn't matter anyway. If this is the best you can find to prove how awful CANCEL CULTURE is, I'm underwhelmed
	Last edited by wareyin; 21st June 2022 at 12:42 PM.

21st June 2022, 01:08 PM	#2114
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,135	Originally Posted by d4m10n The last three. Individual speakers have to decide for themselves. I'd encourage people to think twice before piling on to someone who is being publicly shamed, especially if all you have to go from is a tweet from a moral entrepreneur^WP such as the one in the OP. You are now saying there is no ought not things to say.
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21st June 2022, 01:15 PM	#2115
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 10,504	Originally Posted by Darat You are now saying there is no ought not things to say. I would hope that we'd both agree that it is wrong to make demonstrably false statements which foreseeably lead to physical harm, e.g. "Ivermectin is safer and more effective against coronaviruses than mRNA vaccines." We may well disagree on the underlying metaethics, but we should agree on the idea that people should feel morally obligated not to say such things, even when the state refuses to sanction them.
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