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Old 7th October 2020, 02:09 AM   #81
zooterkin
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
I don't think burning a flag in and of itself constitutes hate speech.
Which is precisely why I asked the OP to define what he was talking about.
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Old 7th October 2020, 04:48 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Which is precisely why I asked the OP to define what he was talking about.
Define it however YOU wish.
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Old 7th October 2020, 07:52 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Define it however YOU wish.
So much for the "apology" that you issued a while back.
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On 22 JUL 2016, Candidate Donald Trump in his acceptance speech: "There can be no prosperity without law and order."
On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
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Old 7th October 2020, 07:55 AM   #84
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My grandma and your grandma were sitting by the fire. My grandma said to your grandma "I'm gonna set your flag on fire".
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Old 7th October 2020, 07:58 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
So much for the "apology" that you issued a while back.
What are you talking about? Rather than waste people's time debating the meaning of words or focus on minutiae, I'm being open to what others wish.
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Old 7th October 2020, 08:01 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Lilyh127 View Post
Well if it's someone else's flag you probably shouldn't burn it. Other than that it's just a piece of fabric with some colors on it
Yeah and a Communion Wafer is just a stale cracker with delusions of grandeur. But literal wars have been fought over that.

Yeah we get it. All symbols are just "random object." We know. But they are symbols. They represent something greater. That's what a symbol is.

The idea that people are just not going to react to symbols of things being destroyed is:

A) Counter to, let me check, yeah all history ever.
B) Rather arbitrarily being argued.

Again where's the all "Yeah I'm not saying it should be illegal but well ya know what they say play stupid games, win stupid prizes" arguments here?
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Old 7th October 2020, 08:04 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What are you talking about? Rather than waste people's time debating the meaning of words or focus on minutiae, I'm being open to what others wish.
Just to point out the obvious ...

This is your topic and as such you should know better than anyone else just what it is that you are talking about.
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On 22 JUL 2016, Candidate Donald Trump in his acceptance speech: "There can be no prosperity without law and order."
On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
A man's best friend is his dogma.
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Old 7th October 2020, 08:09 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Just to point out the obvious ...

This is your topic and as such you should know better than anyone else just what it is that you are talking about.
As I said earlier, I am satisfied by the answers I received. If it was my authority to do so, I would close down the thread. But to the extent people wish to discuss the subject, it shouldn't be constrained by me.
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Old 7th October 2020, 08:10 AM   #89
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Its a first amendment right, done....
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Old 7th October 2020, 08:12 AM   #90
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The other day I saw a photo online of an attractive person wearing a skimpy bathing costume patterned as a flag. Oooh, I was so angry from patriotism at this disrespect for the flag I just wanted to rip that costume right off their shapely body.
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Old 7th October 2020, 08:17 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah and a Communion Wafer is just a stale cracker with delusions of grandeur. But literal wars have been fought over that.

Yeah we get it. All symbols are just "random object." We know. But they are symbols. They represent something greater. That's what a symbol is.

The idea that people are just not going to react to symbols of things being destroyed is:

A) Counter to, let me check, yeah all history ever.
B) Rather arbitrarily being argued.

Again where's the all "Yeah I'm not saying it should be illegal but well ya know what they say play stupid games, win stupid prizes" arguments here?
I asked a group of christians once if they would be offended by being called a fanatic. Some were, because it is intended as an insult.
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Old 7th October 2020, 08:19 AM   #92
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I think the approach would have to be to make an argument totally oblivious to any speech aspect?

"People were burning the flag to comment on politics? I didn't even notice. But we have strong suspicion that it is used as the go signal for terrorist cells. This amendment will be a critical tool in stopping the activity."
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Old 7th October 2020, 08:30 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think the approach would have to be to make an argument totally oblivious to any speech aspect?
Yeah sure we could accomplish that impossible task.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited breach of rule 12
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Old 7th October 2020, 10:01 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think the approach would have to be to make an argument totally oblivious to any speech aspect?

"People were burning the flag to comment on politics? I didn't even notice. But we have strong suspicion that it is used as the go signal for terrorist cells. This amendment will be a critical tool in stopping the activity."
I thought this thread was supposed to be about the best arguments for banning flag burning, not the worst arguments.
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Old 8th October 2020, 06:27 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I thought this thread was supposed to be about the best arguments for banning flag burning, not the worst arguments.
There does not appear many ways to get around the special pleading.
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Old 8th October 2020, 06:39 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I thought this thread was supposed to be about the best arguments for banning flag burning, not the worst arguments.
Really, there is no difference. All content specific reasons are just bad.

There are content neutral ideas (fire safety, incitement) that are at least worth discussing but those are general ideas about the bounds of free speech w/r/t public safety and so on that have nothing to do with specific examples of speech.
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Old 8th October 2020, 07:38 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There does not appear many ways to get around the special pleading.
This is the first I've heard about a special pleading problem. Not all appeals to special circumstances constitute a special pleading fallacy. Please point to an argument that you think relies on special pleading.
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Old 8th October 2020, 08:26 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is the first I've heard about a special pleading problem. Not all appeals to special circumstances constitute a special pleading fallacy. Please point to an argument that you think relies on special pleading.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...g-a-no-brainer

Quote:
The proposal is being sponsored in the Senate by Sens. Steve Daines of Montana and Kevin Cramer of North Dakota and in the House by Rep. Steve Womack of Arkansas. It calls for the U.S. Constitution to be amended so Congress would have “constitutional authority to ban the desecration of the United States flag.”

“The American Flag is a symbol of freedom – and it should always be protected,” Daines wrote Friday.

Added Cramer: “A flag worth dying for is a flag worth protecting.”
It seems that which is worth dying for gives the flag more symbolic power and makes burning it an even more clear act of speech. It is special pleading because they provide no justification for the "dying for" exception.
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Old 8th October 2020, 09:15 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...g-a-no-brainer



It seems that which is worth dying for gives the flag more symbolic power and makes burning it an even more clear act of speech. It is special pleading because they provide no justification for the "dying for" exception.
Seems like it's axiomatic for them. Either you agree that stuff worth dying for is stuff worth protecting, or you don't.

Anyway, whatever. Apparently you were talking about an argument nobody here was making, nobody here was discussing, nobody here even knew was on your mind. This thread just isn't working out for you at all, is it?
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Old 8th October 2020, 09:24 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems like it's axiomatic for them. Either you agree that stuff worth dying for is stuff worth protecting, or you don't.

Anyway, whatever. Apparently you were talking about an argument nobody here was making, nobody here was discussing, nobody here even knew was on your mind. This thread just isn't working out for you at all, is it?
I said I was satiated several posts ago. I said it could be a free-for-all now for all I care.
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Old 8th October 2020, 02:05 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...g-a-no-brainer
Quote:
...It calls for the U.S. Constitution to be amended so Congress would have “constitutional authority to ban the desecration of the United States flag.”
It seems that which is worth dying for gives the flag more symbolic power and makes burning it an even more clear act of speech. It is special pleading because they provide no justification for the "dying for" exception.
Definition of Desecrate.

1. Treat (a sacred place or thing) with violent disrespect.

1.1 1.1 Spoil (something which is valued or respected)

Treating a flag with disrespect constitutes desecration. The operative word is respect. Performing some action (eg. dying) that does not disrespect it doesn't count.

Flag desecration
Quote:
Flag desecration is the desecration of a flag, violation of flag protocol, or various acts that intentionally destroy, damage, or mutilate a flag in public. In the case of a national flag, such action is often intended to make a political point against a country or its policies. Some countries have laws forbidding methods of destruction (such as burning in public) or forbidding particular uses (such as for commercial purposes); such laws may distinguish between desecration of the country's own national flag and flags of other countries.
Burning a flag may be done for a variety of reasons, but desecrating it has only one - to show disrespect for the thing it represents. As such it is - as you rightly point out - very clearly an act of speech, and cannot be banned without changing the Constitution.

OTOH, burning a flag for some other reason may not be protected.

Quote:
Burning or defacing a flag is a crime in some countries. In countries where it is not, the act may still be prosecuted as disorderly conduct, arson, or, if conducted on someone else's property, theft or vandalism.
Dying by wrapping yourself in a flag and burning it could well be a prosecutable crime, but dying 'for the flag' would not under a flag desecration law unless you can frame it as being disrespectful.
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Old 8th October 2020, 02:28 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Treating a flag with disrespect constitutes desecration. The operative word is respect. Performing some action (eg. dying) that does not disrespect it doesn't count.
Failure to genuflect before the flag is desecration of it. One cannot "respect" it without observing the required visible actions to show it.
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Old 8th October 2020, 02:42 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Failure to genuflect before the flag is desecration of it. One cannot "respect" it without observing the required visible actions to show it.
But kneeling doesn't count.
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Old 8th October 2020, 02:53 PM   #104
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Personally, I think the flag gets too much respect and people don't get enough.

It's a ******* piece of cloth.
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Old 8th October 2020, 03:30 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The other day I saw a photo online of an attractive person wearing a skimpy bathing costume patterned as a flag. Oooh, I was so angry from patriotism at this disrespect for the flag I just wanted to rip that costume right off their shapely body.
But did you salute?
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Old 9th October 2020, 09:52 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
But did you salute?
Rapidly, for quite some minutes.
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Old 10th October 2020, 01:31 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Personally, I think the flag gets too much respect and people don't get enough.

It's a ******* piece of cloth.
Ironically, you are not respecting people who have strong feelings about the flag as a symbol.
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Old 10th October 2020, 02:05 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ironically, you are not respecting people who have strong feelings about the flag as a symbol.
I don't care. The vast majority that put the symbol before human beings have little understanding of the actual principles our nation was built on.

When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.

Let me rephrase that. I care. Just not much. I remember that it is only a symbol. We have millions of living human beings that are homeless. We have rampant racism. We have lots of people that die because of inadequate health care. So you'll excuse me that I don't tie an American flag to the back of my pickup.
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Old 10th October 2020, 11:08 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't care. The vast majority that put the symbol before human beings have little understanding of the actual principles our nation was built on.

When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.

Let me rephrase that. I care. Just not much. I remember that it is only a symbol. We have millions of living human beings that are homeless. We have rampant racism. We have lots of people that die because of inadequate health care. So you'll excuse me that I don't tie an American flag to the back of my pickup.
You forgot the millions of people relying on foodbanks to not go hungry. Also rampant unemployment and an impending eviction crisis.

But yeah, gotta respect the flag.
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