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Old 29th March 2020, 04:49 PM   #121
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Oh my God does it matter?

"LOL Trump didn't say this exact thing..."

What he said was still insane. I'm sick of the "Trump didn't say this horrible thing, he technically said his horrible thing" crap.

The cruelty is the point, and the nitpicks are the method.
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Old 29th March 2020, 04:52 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The rest of the ad does but "The coronavirus...it's their new hoax" has NOTHING to do with the message that Trump didn't take it seriously. It is intended to suggest that Trump called the virus a hoax. He did not no matter how you try and spin it.

Take off your bias blinders. Your world is not going to fall apart and your well founded dislike of Trump is not going to be undermined by admitting that part of the ad is misleading. There truly are none so blind as those who will not see.
The inclusion of "The Coronavirus" does serve this purpose; it shows Trumpy early on using the moniker before changing it to "The Chinese virus."

I agree that the concentenation of this phrase with the next is a kind of slimy underhandedness which I reflexively despise. But as I mooted upthread, in these perilous times such disjointed snippets of Trumpy's words, even if they invite less than truthful inferences, are necessary weapons to drive home to the cult the nature of their Chosen One.

Besides. It's obvious (to me, anyway ) that the whole ad is a collection of brief snippets. To anyone who's been paying attention, Trump's words selected here recall the instances and the larger context from whence drawn. Each clip brings on a recollection of what was so enraging at the time first uttered. This ad does not create a false narrative; it reinforces that which must be remembered in this breathtaking pace of scandalous ineptitude, idiocy and outright scumbaggery.
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Old 29th March 2020, 05:04 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh my God does it matter?

"LOL Trump didn't say this exact thing..."

What he said was still insane. I'm sick of the "Trump didn't say this horrible thing, he technically said his horrible thing" crap.

The cruelty is the point, and the nitpicks are the method.
It is not 'nitpicking' to point out a false claim that Trump said something that he did not say. Especially when it is being used to mislead the American people in a campaign ad.

When Trump is rightfully criticized for lying and misleading constantly, it is not nitpicking to point out when those critics engage in the same behavior themselves. If a Trump ad were to mischaracterize the Dem nominee in the same way, these same people would be howling from the roof tops in outrage.

Trump's base has rightfully been accused of ignoring evidence and believing only that which they want to believe. Frankly, I think this is a classic example of some very strong anti-Trumpers engaging in the same willful blindness and intellectual dishonesty.
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Old 29th March 2020, 05:07 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
I've already seen at least one video go up from a nurse who said at her hospital people are being "sent home to die". That's how bad it is.
AHA! Democratic Death Panels! Checkmate, Obama!
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Old 29th March 2020, 05:09 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
The inclusion of "The Coronavirus" does serve this purpose; it shows Trumpy early on using the moniker before changing it to "The Chinese virus."

I agree that the concentenation of this phrase with the next is a kind of slimy underhandedness which I reflexively despise. But as I mooted upthread, in these perilous times such disjointed snippets of Trumpy's words, even if they invite less than truthful inferences, are necessary weapons to drive home to the cult the nature of their Chosen One.

Besides. It's obvious (to me, anyway ) that the whole ad is a collection of brief snippets. To anyone who's been paying attention, Trump's words selected here recall the instances and the larger context from whence drawn. Each clip brings on a recollection of what was so enraging at the time first uttered. This ad does not create a false narrative; it reinforces that which must be remembered in this breathtaking pace of scandalous ineptitude, idiocy and outright scumbaggery.
Nope. This is nothing but another justification for misrepresenting what he actually said and meant. There was no need for it. The same effectiveness could have been easily achieved without resorting to this kind of manipulation.

It disappoints me when I see people with whom I mostly agree when it comes to the vile POS that is Trump doing the exact same thing they criticize Trump and his followers of doing.
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Old 29th March 2020, 05:12 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The rest of the ad does but "The coronavirus...it's their new hoax" has NOTHING to do with the message that Trump didn't take it seriously. It is intended to suggest that Trump called the virus a hoax. He did not no matter how you try and spin it.

Take off your bias blinders. Your world is not going to fall apart and your well founded dislike of Trump is not going to be undermined by admitting that part of the ad is misleading. There truly are none so blind as those who will not see.
I don't think I'm wearing bias blinders. I think it was intended to be two separate statements, that were obviously not part of the same sentence, and it isn't at all misleading. It's part of a series of statements that he made in an evolving series of constantly changing statements.

The "it's their new hoax" wasn't an isolated comment, either. It was a Republican talking point. Remember, the impeachment trial ended on February 5. Right wing radio was all over the "hoax" line as soon as that ended. The theme was that since they failed with impeachment, now they are saying he is bungling the coronavirus response. That message, that Trump was bungling the coronavirus response, was the "hoax".

The ad implies nothing else.

Obviously, Trump did not consider the virus itself a hoax. No one thinks he said that. However, the severity of the virus was a hoax, according to an awful lot of people, including Trump.

The idea that the threat of coronavirus was greatly exaggerated, or even a hoax, was still prominent when I started this thread just a few days ago. Interestingly, though, this weekend, I have seen almost none of that. I think moving into the top position on the coronavirus leaderboard may have made some columnists rethink their positions.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 29th March 2020 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 29th March 2020, 05:17 PM   #127
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In the same way that saying all the Jews just died natural deaths from working in the camps isn't holocaust denial, sure.
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Old 29th March 2020, 06:25 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
At first I thought this was non-responsive, but I get the connection to what I was asking. It goes to "why" people are praising Trump.

I had been looking more for "how", I suppose. What were they saying that justified giving Trump credit for a great performance. However, what the link is saying is basically that the people praising him aren't basing it on what he is actually doing.

Maybe "performance" is indeed the right word.
You mean as opposed to what he didn't do when he should have?

And what about what he did that was useless?

OK, never mind, I see the answer in your next post.
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Old 29th March 2020, 06:26 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't think I'm wearing bias blinders. I think it was intended to be two separate statements, that were obviously not part of the same sentence, and it isn't at all misleading. It's part of a series of statements that he made in an evolving series of constantly changing statements.
It is misleading because Trump never called the virus a hoax which is clearly being implied. That Trump downplayed the seriousness of the virus is not disputed by me but that is not what that particular quote from the ad in addressing.

Quote:
The "it's their new hoax" wasn't an isolated comment, either. It was a Republican talking point. Remember, the impeachment trial ended on February 5. Right wing radio was all over the "hoax" line as soon as that ended. The theme was that since they failed with impeachment, now they are saying he is bungling the coronavirus response. That message, that Trump was bungling the coronavirus response, was the "hoax".
Correct. It was the DEMS 'hoax' not the virus itself which is implied by the ad and taken up by some Dems, including Biden and Bloomberg, as I've quoted and cited. That has been, and is, my entire freaking point.

Quote:
The ad implies nothing else.
It most certainly does. The ad does not imply it's the DEMS' criticism of Trump's handling of the crisis that is the hoax, but the virus itself.

Quote:
Obviously, Trump did not consider the virus itself a hoax. No one thinks he said that. However, the severity of the virus was a hoax, according to an awful lot of people, including Trump.
Ah, but they do as I've already quoted and cited examples.

Quote:
The idea that the threat of coronavirus was greatly exaggerated, or even a hoax, was still prominent when I started this thread just a few days ago. Interestingly, though, this weekend, I have seen almost none of that. I think moving into the top position on the coronavirus leaderboard may have made some columnists rethink their positions.
I agree. What I am seeing on this board is those who insist that they see very little to no difference between Trump claiming the virus itself is a hoax and his claiming the Dems' criticism of his handling of the crisis is their 'new hoax'. That latter is his waving away their criticism because it's just their way of falsely accusing him in order to damage his re-election chances. Why some cannot see that is mind boggling to me.
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Old 29th March 2020, 06:28 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
My wife is in isolation. She has not been tested, but it is presumptive.

I don't blame Trump, I blame the idiots who work at her place of business and came in even though they were sick. Then again, I realize they need to go to work because they need money.

To the extent you know me (I've only been here for 15 years or whatever it is), you know someone affected.
I hope she'll get through it OK. You too.
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Old 29th March 2020, 06:44 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
And yet you repeatedly deny offers of a map and compass.
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Old 29th March 2020, 06:45 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I got a list of conservative blogs from over at conservapedia, and started clicking.

Definitely the overriding theme is to deny the severity of the problem.

I hope they're right.
That ship sailed, I'm afraid.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 29th March 2020, 06:45 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It is misleading because Trump never called the virus a hoax which is clearly being implied.
That's not how I interpreted the ad, but perhaps that is because I actually understood the context from having heard Hannity et. al. talking about it incessantly.
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Old 29th March 2020, 07:02 PM   #134
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He claimed the democrats were politicizing the virus through exaggeration while he was stirring up a gaggle of morons by . . . politicizing the crisis while downplaying its severity.

Who is hoaxing here?

ETA: I'd go with pathological liar.
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Old 29th March 2020, 07:44 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No, it does not only state that. I suggest you watch the ad again.



https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...navirus-a-hoax

Frame one followed immediate by frame 2:


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...11075e654e.jpg

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1108927aa4.jpg
That can be interpreted in more than one way because "this" could refer to the virus, or to how the Democrats are criticizing incompetrump about it.

On the scale of misleading, this barely registers.

But I agree with you for a slightly different reason. Just avoid the whole hoax issue altogether. It ads nothing and provides a significant distraction from the message.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

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Old 29th March 2020, 07:54 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The ad is comprised mostly of snippets of Trump quotes. I'm not convinced that the ad is misleading at all. The message is that Trump didn't take it seriously.
I don't think the Trump administration and their fan-club have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to making cut-and-paste madlib adverts out of opposition quotes in order to rubbish them. They practically invented it.
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Old 29th March 2020, 09:13 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I saw that his job approval polls had gone up, and I couldn't understand how that could possibly be true. There were obviously people who thought he was doing a good job. I wanted to know what they were saying.
As I said in another thread a week or so ago, conservatism is a fundamental fear driven phenomenon. Conservatives as a whole are more afraid of basically everything than liberals, but the story doesn't end there. Uncertainty and fear actually make people lean more conservative. This wouldn't be the first time conservatives were responsible for the thing people were afraid of and benefited politically from the fear it instilled.
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Old 29th March 2020, 09:24 PM   #138
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Anyone asked Wilbur Ross recently how awesome the virus has been for the US economy?
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Old 29th March 2020, 09:27 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No, he did not so please stop repeating this false claim. Not a single fact-finding source (Politifact, Snopes, FactCheck) supports that claim. He was referring to the Dems politicization of the virus crisis, not the virus itself.
Politicizing the crisis would not have been an example of something you could reasonably call a hoax. It's completely non-sequitur.
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Old 29th March 2020, 09:37 PM   #140
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Anyone want to claim that Trump didn't claim that Democrats overhyped the dangers of the epidemic in order to hurt him?
Anyone want to claim that Trump was right and Democrats were wrong when they were asking for more decisive steps to prepare?
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Old 29th March 2020, 09:46 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
He did not literally call it a hoax, he only implied it and treated it as such. These false claims will make no difference to Trumpanzees that believe it to be a media hoax.

Trump supporters are trying to claim that the ad was saying Trump didn't think the virus existed at all, which clearly was not what the ad as saying. Rather, it was suggesting that Trump though the threat it represented was a hoax.

There was an still is plenty of evidence to support the notion that Trump did not take the problem seriously, and this is something that can reasonably be summed up with "he thinks it's a hoax"
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Old 29th March 2020, 11:39 PM   #142
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Trump also said impeachment was a hoax when impeachment, both in general and specifically in Trumpís case, is a thing that actually exists.

Trump, him no use words good.
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Old 29th March 2020, 11:42 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The ad only states that Trump did not take the virus seriously. The ad is accurate.
But that's the hoax! This is why the ad is misleading!

If you criticize the president's actions, it's a hoax. If you contradict him with facts, it's fake news. If you doubt his competence or sanity, you are the incompetent or insane one. If you aren't loyal to him, you are a traitor. And if none of that sticks - he was only joking!

Covid-19 isn't the only virus that has infected this country. There's another one that's far more dangerous, and it's been here since 2016.
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Old 29th March 2020, 11:44 PM   #144
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Remember that the word "hoax" is actually a Trump catch-all descriptor for anything that runs contra to his own made-up tiny mind. He cannot stand anyone or anything who defies him. But since he hasn't got the knowledge to argue against something, the easiest way out is to label it as something he CAN satisfactorily dismiss without further effort. It's a really dumb version of straw-manning.

So whatever it is, if he calls it a hoax, he has no idea what it is but he hates it.
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Old 30th March 2020, 12:39 AM   #145
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Simply put:

It doesn't matter what word(s) the Ballbag uses, or how the Ballbag uses them. The point is that so long as his word salads are somehow badmouthing and sticking it to the libruls, the Ballbag will continue to have the support of 40% - 50% of the country.

These IQ-challenged meatbags have their anointed messiah who thinks and talks just like them. Gods, guns, and getting libruls... nothing else matters.
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Old 30th March 2020, 05:32 AM   #146
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Four new columns at patriot.us today. (This is the site I had previously referred to as the "federalist" site, because federalist.com redirects there.)

The themes:

1. Trump was right about China

2. We should trust God, instead of man, specifically instead of medical experts whose projections are uncertain and changing.

3. Californians are wisely exercising their second amendment rights by buying guns.

4. Trump is not a dictator.

The last two were videos and I didn't watch them, so I'm guessing somewhat at their content based on the introductory text.

Just last Thursday, when this thread started, the primary theme was denialism. I think yesterday's news conference put the final nail in that argument, although I'm sure there will still be some stragglers clinging to it.
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Old 30th March 2020, 07:05 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Sorry to hear that.

As time goes on, there will be more and more people whose lives this is going to touch, and I wonder how strong the denialism can be. How long will they be able to pretend it's just the flu?

Good luck.
Update:
My wife went to the ER on Friday and was admitted with pneumonia. She stayed in the hospital for 2 days. She ended up testing negative for COVID, but you know, that really doesn't matter. She still had something nasty that gave her pneumonia and a fever for 4 days. That it wasn't COVID is not much of a consolation.

Fortunately she is home and out of isolation.
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Old 30th March 2020, 07:16 AM   #148
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I'm happy to hear that your wife tested negative. I wish her a speedy recovery at home now.
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Old 30th March 2020, 07:21 AM   #149
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How long before all states are going to be forced to enact and enforce laws to maintain social distancing?

I have seen at least two recent examples of churches holding large gatherings in the last week. This is ridiculous. That will only ensure that this lasts longer than it needs to last.

And also not to just seem like I am picking on religious groups, but there have been too many instances of idiotic spring breakers gathering at beaches and whatnot thinking they are immune because they are young and have "strong immune systems" (a quote from some bikini clad beach goer I just saw on CNN).

What is wrong with people? How can someone not take this seriously at this point?
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Old 30th March 2020, 07:26 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
I'm happy to hear that your wife tested negative.
I'm not. As I said, I take absolutely no consolation in that negative result. She was still very sick and spent 2 days in the hospital being treated for pneumonia. I'm relieved she is home, but certainly not happy about anything. Covid or not, this all sucks.

That's one thing I think is important to remember: with all this covid stuff, we need to remember there is still normal crap going around, including colds, flu or something other. My wife tested negative for everything they looked for. She was still sick enough to need hospitalization.
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Old 30th March 2020, 07:28 AM   #151
shemp
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
How long before all states are going to be forced to enact and enforce laws to maintain social distancing?

I have seen at least two recent examples of churches holding large gatherings in the last week. This is ridiculous. That will only ensure that this lasts longer than it needs to last.

And also not to just seem like I am picking on religious groups, but there have been too many instances of idiotic spring breakers gathering at beaches and whatnot thinking they are immune because they are young and have "strong immune systems" (a quote from some bikini clad beach goer I just saw on CNN).

What is wrong with people? How can someone not take this seriously at this point?
How can someone not see that Trump is the ultimate scumbag?
How can someone think that a deity will protect them?
How can someone believe in conspiracy theories?
How can some overdose on Chloroquine or drink Methanol and think that this will protect them?

The answer to all of these and many other questions is the same:

STUPIDITY!


There will never be a shortage of it.
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Old 30th March 2020, 07:47 AM   #152
dmaker
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I'm not. As I said, I take absolutely no consolation in that negative result. She was still very sick and spent 2 days in the hospital being treated for pneumonia. I'm relieved she is home, but certainly not happy about anything. Covid or not, this all sucks.

That's one thing I think is important to remember: with all this covid stuff, we need to remember there is still normal crap going around, including colds, flu or something other. My wife tested negative for everything they looked for. She was still sick enough to need hospitalization.
I hear you. My father in law has late stage lung cancer. He is still at home and goes to the hospital for his chemo treatments, but he is now showing signs of liver failure. He has not been admitted yet, but my wife fears that may happen any day now. If he is admitted during all of this, she fears he will pass alone in a hospital where his loved ones will be unable to visit him.
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Old 30th March 2020, 08:02 AM   #153
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Watching the FB I see the tactic now is to blame, blame, and attack anyone but Trump. Obama is being blamed for not replacing N95 filters after a previous outbreak, Cuomo is being attacked for a budget issue that has nothing to do with COVID-19 issues. Generic complaints about Obama's recover being 'anemic', etc.etc.

So we are mostly back to the old Trump protection antics.
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Old 30th March 2020, 08:08 AM   #154
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Unfortunately, COVID-19 doesn't select for stupid ********.
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Old 30th March 2020, 09:10 AM   #155
Apathia
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
How can someone not see that Trump is the ultimate scumbag?
How can someone think that a deity will protect them?
How can someone believe in conspiracy theories?
How can some overdose on Chloroquine or drink Methanol and think that this will protect them?

The answer to all of these and many other questions is the same:

STUPIDITY!


There will never be a shortage of it.
We have an ongoing pandemic of B.E.A.D.S..
Brain Electroencephalographic Activity Deficiency Syndrome.
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Old 30th March 2020, 09:15 AM   #156
Trebuchet
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Unfortunately, COVID-19 doesn't select for stupid ********.
It does if several thousand of them crowd into a right-wing megachurch on Easter Sunday.
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Old 30th March 2020, 10:42 AM   #157
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https://www.alternet.org/2020/03/som...berals-report/

Some Trumpanzees are literally putting their health and lives at risk just to stick it to the liberals.
It would be funny if they weren't risking many innocent lives as well with their idiocy.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 30th March 2020, 10:58 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I am thoroughly enjoying my covad commute, no traffic
You mean from your living room to the bathroom?
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Old 30th March 2020, 10:59 AM   #159
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Anyone want to claim that Trump didn't claim that Democrats overhyped the dangers of the epidemic in order to hurt him?
Anyone want to claim that Trump was right and Democrats were wrong when they were asking for more decisive steps to prepare?
Nope. I agree that he did both.
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Old 30th March 2020, 11:04 AM   #160
CORed
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Watching the FB I see the tactic now is to blame, blame, and attack anyone but Trump. Obama is being blamed for not replacing N95 filters after a previous outbreak, Cuomo is being attacked for a budget issue that has nothing to do with COVID-19 issues. Generic complaints about Obama's recover being 'anemic', etc.etc.

So we are mostly back to the old Trump protection antics.
Blaming Obama is about as lame as you can get. Trump is now in year 3 of his term. If Obama left him unprepared in some way, he's had plenty of time to fix it. Why didn't he do it?
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