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Tags court cases , donald trump , Michael Flynn , perjury cases , Robert Mueller , William Barr

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Old 13th May 2020, 12:01 PM   #241
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because he's had the truth explained to him, and he keeps trying to push something that's false.
A disagreement is not evidence of a lie.

What evidence do you have that it was lie?
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Old 13th May 2020, 01:02 PM   #242
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't have to read minds. The meaning is made pretty clear from the text itself: he doesn't know how his actions will be portrayed in the future, because the people doing that may have motives for portraying it differently than it actually is.
Even if that is what he meant, what that means, as I suggested in my first post on the quote, is that Barr sees the application of Justice in a partisan lens. That the winner gets to decide what is right or not.

Sorry, but you have said exactly nothing to contradict my point that Barr is not arguing in a legal way for letting a guilty man go without a sentencing.
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Old 13th May 2020, 02:17 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
What specifically do you see as Brady material?
I'd still like to know, Zig.
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Old 13th May 2020, 02:24 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Even if that is what he meant, what that means, as I suggested in my first post on the quote, is that Barr sees the application of Justice in a partisan lens. That the winner gets to decide what is right or not.
No it doesn't mean that. It means that he's saying many people will view it through a partisan lens.

Quote:
Sorry, but you have said exactly nothing to contradict my point that Barr is not arguing in a legal way for letting a guilty man go without a sentencing.
The question wasn't really a legal (as in the topic) question to begin with. And his answer wasn't an argument about why to dismiss the case, because that's not what the question asked for. The legal argument for why to dismiss the case are contained within the motion to dismiss.
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Old 13th May 2020, 02:53 PM   #245
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GOP senators release list of Obama officials, including Biden, who ‘unmasked’

Michael Flynn

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...6e5_story.html
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Old 13th May 2020, 04:31 PM   #246
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Court asks retired judge to oppose Justice Dept. effort to drop Michael Flynn case, examine if ex-Trump adviser committed perjury

Michael Flynn’s sentencing judge Wednesday asked a former federal judge to explore whether Trump’s former national security adviser should face a contempt hearing for perjury after he pleaded guilty to a crime for which he now claims to be innocent.

U.S. District Judge Emmet Sullivan also asked retired New York federal Judge John Gleeson to make a nonbinding recommendation whether to order Flynn, who pleaded guilty to a crime and now claims innocence, to explain why he should not be found in criminal contempt for lying under oath in his guilty plea.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...6e5_story.html
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Old 13th May 2020, 04:37 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
GOP senators release list of Obama officials, including Biden, who ‘unmasked’

Michael Flynn

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...6e5_story.html
I still don't get what he was 'unmasked' as.
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Old 13th May 2020, 04:45 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
Court asks retired judge to oppose Justice Dept. effort to drop Michael Flynn case, examine if ex-Trump adviser committed perjury

Michael Flynn’s sentencing judge Wednesday asked a former federal judge to explore whether Trump’s former national security adviser should face a contempt hearing for perjury after he pleaded guilty to a crime for which he now claims to be innocent.

U.S. District Judge Emmet Sullivan also asked retired New York federal Judge John Gleeson to make a nonbinding recommendation whether to order Flynn, who pleaded guilty to a crime and now claims innocence, to explain why he should not be found in criminal contempt for lying under oath in his guilty plea.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...6e5_story.html
Well that just can't be right. We've been told here over and over that it wasn't under oath, and I can't fathom that legal eagles like Zigg could get the fundamentals wrong.
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Old 13th May 2020, 05:04 PM   #249
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Regarding Sullivan's perjury question, Flynn has under oath told the judge he is both guilty and innocent of lying to the FBI about his contacts with Russia during the Trump transition.
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Old 13th May 2020, 05:42 PM   #250
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I see Billy Barr's seemingly contemptuous remark about history being written by the victor as him preemptively covering his ass, or at least providing some shred of an excuse. He knows how wrong he is, and that every honest prosecutor knows it. But he needs to project this as a situation where sufficient inconclusiveness is present to allow him to claim now and later that the 'other side' is applying the 'victor writes the history rule' when the blue wave sweeps the current cabal out of power.
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Old 13th May 2020, 07:19 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I still don't get what he was 'unmasked' as.


That was posted by “zorro99” - maybe it’s a meta joke.
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Old 13th May 2020, 07:38 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Zig, since you can read minds:

Why did Barr say: "History is written by the winners."?
Especially when it is currently being rewritten. The conservatives are all falling in behind Trump in lockstep. Trump is God's tool to bring on the End Times and he is doing a magnificent job of it.
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Old 13th May 2020, 07:40 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I still don't get what he was 'unmasked' as.
His name was "masked" on a recording of the call made by the security services. Unmasking revealed it was Flynn. It was a heinous crime to investigate a criminal.
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Old 14th May 2020, 01:56 AM   #254
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I think Judge Sullivan is none too happy with the DOJ. More information on Judge Sullivan's move:

Quote:
The federal judge overseeing the case against President Trump’s former national security adviser Michael T. Flynn appointed a hard-charging former prosecutor and judge on Wednesday to oppose the Justice Department’s effort to drop the case and to explore a perjury charge against Mr. Flynn.
Judge Emmet G. Sullivan’s appointment of the former judge, John Gleeson, was an extraordinary move in a case with acute political overtones. Mr. Flynn pleaded guilty twice to lying to investigators as part of a larger inquiry into Russia’s interference in the 2016 election.
Quote:
Judge Sullivan had said on Tuesday that he would consider briefs from outsiders known as amicus curiae, or “friend of the court,” who opposed the government’s request to dismiss the case against Mr. Flynn.

Quote:
Judge Sullivan’s move was highly unusual, said Samuel Buell, a former federal prosecutor who now teaches criminal law at Duke University.

...Judge Sullivan, he said, is essentially bringing in an outsider to represent the point of view of the original prosecutors, who believed Mr. Flynn had committed a crime before Mr. Barr intervened and essentially replaced them with a prosecutor willing to say he had not.

“This is extraordinary for the judge to appoint somebody to argue against a prosecutors’ motion to dismiss a criminal case,” Mr. Buell said. “But it’s extraordinary for a prosecutor to move to dismiss this sort of criminal case.”
Quote:
Judge Gleeson, who served on the federal bench in Brooklyn and ran the criminal division in the federal prosecutor’s office there, has already made plain his skepticism of the Justice Department’s motion to dismiss the Flynn case. He co-wrote an op-ed article this week in The Washington Post urging Judge Sullivan to scrutinize it.
Quote:
The department made conflicting statements to the court, they wrote, saying that Judge Sullivan had the “authority, the tools and the obligation” to decide whether the motion to withdraw was credible.

“There has been nothing regular about the department’s effort to dismiss the Flynn case,” they wrote. “The record reeks of improper political influence.”

Last edited by Stacyhs; 14th May 2020 at 02:02 AM.
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Old 14th May 2020, 05:08 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I think Judge Sullivan is none too happy with the DOJ. More information on Judge Sullivan's move:
..Judge Sullivan, he said, is essentially bringing in an outsider to represent the point of view of the original prosecutors, who believed Mr. Flynn had committed a crime before Mr. Barr intervened and essentially replaced them with a prosecutor willing to say he had not.
This is the sort of thing that a judge usually does when they think the defendant is not being adequately represented. In this case, it looks very much like the he thinks the plaintiff (The US) is not being adequately represented. If so, I completely agree.
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Old 14th May 2020, 05:42 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Well that just can't be right. We've been told here over and over that it wasn't under oath, and I can't fathom that legal eagles like Zigg could get the fundamentals wrong.
https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1...712606721?s=20

Quote:
Trying to remember. Didn't Sullivan wave the perjury threat at Flynn at a prior hearing?

The thing is -- plea allocutions are under penalty of perjury, and the judge tells you at the beginning that you can be prosecuted for perjury if you lie.
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Old 14th May 2020, 05:43 AM   #257
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Also relevant: https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1...225447942?s=20

Quote:
I mean, if you thought the government was taking a dive in the case for corrupt reasons, but also still had to protect the rights of the defendant, this is how you might do it -- appoint someone to make the arguments a non-corrupt government would make, and then decide.
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Old 14th May 2020, 07:22 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Well that just can't be right. We've been told here over and over that it wasn't under oath, and I can't fathom that legal eagles like Zigg could get the fundamentals wrong.
Previously:
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Flynn was [under oath when he made his plea]. It was in the transcript.

eta: Page 7, line 21
Rather than acknowledged and retracted, Zig merely ignored that he made the claim from then on.

I find this is only marginally better than what is in the Trump playbook, which would have been to call me a fake poster and blame me for a conspiracy to make Flynn be under oath when he made his plea.
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Old 14th May 2020, 07:29 AM   #259
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The bizarre thing is that by all accounts, Flynn could have gotten off on probation over a year ago.

None of this is in Flynn's best interest, it's political theater to help sell Trump's narrative.

Kudos to Judge Sullivan for not letting his court get coopted.
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Old 14th May 2020, 08:18 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
If a guilty plea isn't evidence towards a conviction, on what basis is the conviction made?
The guilty plea.

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
His plea agreement also states that was doing so willfully and knowingly.
Yeah but was he knowingly stating that he knew he was doing so knowingly or was he coerced to pretend to know that he was doing so knowingly, and did he knowingly know that the statement was knowing or was he knowingly misinformed about that knowledge?
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Old 14th May 2020, 01:01 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The guilty plea.



Yeah but was he knowingly stating that he knew he was doing so knowingly or was he coerced to pretend to know that he was doing so knowingly, and did he knowingly know that the statement was knowing or was he knowingly misinformed about that knowledge?
To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge.

Thoreau or maybe Confucius
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Old 14th May 2020, 03:16 PM   #262
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Well, since Ziggurat appears to be thoroughly disinclined to identify the supposed Brady material, I went on a brief hunt for a publication which would. I couldn't find any! Plenty of vague gesturing at recent disclosures, but no one willing to identify material and articulate why it is exculpatory. It seems like this is a talking point crafted by Flynn advocates, and then repeated without scrutiny.

I did find a few commenters suggesting that the FBI withheld the fact that the interviewing agents believed Flynn was not lying during the interview at issue, but it's a matter of record that this was disclosed prior to Flynn signing the plea deal (page 8 and 9 of 32).

That memorandum also shows what an about face the motion to dismiss was, as it sides with the government against Flynn argument that any lie would not have been material to the investigations.
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Old 14th May 2020, 04:08 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but was he knowingly stating that he knew he was doing so knowingly or was he coerced to pretend to know that he was doing so knowingly, and did he knowingly know that the statement was knowing or was he knowingly misinformed about that knowledge?
Anything you say Sir Humphrey!

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge.
Ok Bernard!
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Old 14th May 2020, 07:54 PM   #264
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More than anything this is a sad state of affairs -- seeing a bunch of nerdy, jackal foreigners on this board attacking an American who served in the military and bravely lied to the FBI.
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Old 15th May 2020, 02:18 AM   #265
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...bravely perjured himself to the FBI
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Old 15th May 2020, 12:23 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but was he knowingly stating that he knew he was doing so knowingly or was he coerced to pretend to know that he was doing so knowingly, and did he knowingly know that the statement was knowing or was he knowingly misinformed about that knowledge?
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Old 17th May 2020, 09:48 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
Well, since Ziggurat appears to be thoroughly disinclined to identify the supposed Brady material, I went on a brief hunt for a publication which would. I couldn't find any! Plenty of vague gesturing at recent disclosures, but no one willing to identify material and articulate why it is exculpatory.
1) The FBI's Washington Field office's Closing Communication on Crossfire Razor. Knowing that the FBI had decided to drop it's investigation without intention to charge him with a crime would be exculpatory, at least according to his attorney.

2) Communications showing how the FBI was intentionally trying to deceive Flynn about the January 24 interview being adversarial. That includes emails and texts from Priestap, Page and Strzok.



Quote:
I did find a few commenters suggesting that the FBI withheld the fact that the interviewing agents believed Flynn was not lying during the interview at issue, but it's a matter of record that this was disclosed prior to Flynn signing the plea deal.
The question is: how much did the prosecution disclose to Flynn? The document you linked to says the government provided "dozens of relevant documents", "Strzok's preference for a presidential candidate" and "FBI agents did not think he was lying."

Did the prosecution inform Flynn and his counsel about the texts between Page and Strzok where they discussed altering his 302 multiple times? I'm guessing that could possibly sway his decision to plead guilty.
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Old 17th May 2020, 11:17 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No it doesn't mean that. It means that he's saying many people will view it through a partisan lens.
And why is that, do you think? Could it be because Barr prioritizes partisan favoritism over justice? With no subtlety about it at all, no pretense that justice has any bearing on his decisions?
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Old 17th May 2020, 11:19 PM   #269
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The DOJ, in typical Barr tradition, has picked from the FBI reports the bits that look like they support their position and covered-up the bits that contradict them. The Agent they quote again and again in the withdrawal has publicly stated that they were misquoted.
It's the lie about the Mueller Report all over again.

Nothing Barr does is honest or just.
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Old 18th May 2020, 12:28 AM   #270
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George HW Bush's Deputy AG speaks out against Barr
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Old 18th May 2020, 12:31 AM   #271
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https://twitter.com/TFrampton/status...207346176?s=20

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NEW on SSRN: “Why Do Rule 48(a) Dismissals Require ‘Leave of Court’?” SCOTUS (and DOJ) say it’s only to protect Defs. (so judge must dismiss if Flynn assents). Not so. Rule 48(a) exists to stop Gov't from dropping cases against well-connected defendants. https://bit.ly/3brIn4X
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Old 18th May 2020, 02:06 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
1) The FBI's Washington Field office's Closing Communication on Crossfire Razor. Knowing that the FBI had decided to drop it's investigation without intention to charge him with a crime would be exculpatory, at least according to his attorney.

2) Communications showing how the FBI was intentionally trying to deceive Flynn about the January 24 interview being adversarial. That includes emails and texts from Priestap, Page and Strzok.





The question is: how much did the prosecution disclose to Flynn? The document you linked to says the government provided "dozens of relevant documents", "Strzok's preference for a presidential candidate" and "FBI agents did not think he was lying."

Did the prosecution inform Flynn and his counsel about the texts between Page and Strzok where they discussed altering his 302 multiple times? I'm guessing that could possibly sway his decision to plead guilty.
Before fixating on the little stuff like the lying to the FBI charge, we might do well to wait to see what really serious stuff Flynn pled down from in order to get this very light charge of lying.

Remember also that Judge Sullivan was really pissed over Flynn, musing out loud about the possibility of calling treason. And Flynn had agreed to be a cooperating witness, further buttressing the likelihood of otherwise facing serious charges had he not. And Sullivan sternly suggested Flynn do some more cooperating and delay his sentencing because of how pissed he was and thus would levy a harsher penalty.

I've seen reporting that Flynn was planning to kidnap an enemy of Erodogan's for money, and deliver him over to the Turks, FFS. And don't overlook his undeclared status as a lobbyist for Turkey, for pay. This dirty operator, if guilty of these things while a member of the US government, would indeed inspire a patriotic American to invoke the picture of a traitorous scumbag.

If it ever gets out just how bad Flynn betrayed his country, even apologists like you might be inclined to call for his pillorying.
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Old 18th May 2020, 03:43 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
I've seen reporting that Flynn was planning to kidnap an enemy of Erodogan's for money, and deliver him over to the Turks, FFS. And don't overlook his undeclared status as a lobbyist for Turkey, for pay. This dirty operator, if guilty of these things while a member of the US government, would indeed inspire a patriotic American to invoke the picture of a traitorous scumbag.

If it ever gets out just how bad Flynn betrayed his country, even apologists like you might be inclined to call for his pillorying.
If....

The number of stories that would have been huge IF they were shown to be true is a lot.
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Old 18th May 2020, 03:46 AM   #274
The Great Zaganza
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It is a fact that Flynn's company was getting hundreds of thousands of dollars from Turkey without him or his son ever registering as foreign agents.
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Old 18th May 2020, 03:50 AM   #275
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It is a fact that Flynn's company was getting hundreds of thousands of dollars from Turkey without him or his son ever registering as foreign agents.
If you say so. I don't have enough context to know whether that is shocking or mundane. A few hundred thousand dollars sounds kind of cheap for organizing an international kidnapping and rendition, but if it's true, it would certainly be shocking.
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Old 18th May 2020, 04:06 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If....

The number of stories that would have been huge IF they were shown to be true is a lot.
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If you say so. I don't have enough context to know whether that is shocking or mundane. A few hundred thousand dollars sounds kind of cheap for organizing an international kidnapping and rendition, but if it's true, it would certainly be shocking.

Oh, its true alright
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nat...turkey-n943926

"Special counsel Robert Mueller disclosed more details Tuesday of former national security adviser Michael Flynn’s efforts to cover up the extent of his ties to the government of Turkey while he was a top official on President Donald Trump’s campaign and transition.

The documents specifically state that a key component of Flynn’s work for Turkey involved the government’s efforts to remove from the U.S. a Turkish cleric living in Pennsylvania. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan accuses the cleric, Fethullah Gulen, of orchestrating a failed coup against him in July 2016. Flynn began working for Turkey about a month later.

"Federal prosecutors said in the court filing, which refers to Gulen, though not by name, that Flynn’s decision not to disclose that he was aiding the Turkish government "impeded the ability of the public to learn about the Republic of Turkey's efforts to influence public opinion about the failed coup, including its efforts to effectuate the removal of a person legally residing in the United States."

Since the failed coup, Turkey has repeatedly demanded the U.S. extradite Gulen. The Trump White House recently asked federal law enforcement agencies to look into legal ways to remove the cleric from the U.S. in attempt to ease Erdogan’s anger after the Saudi government’s murder of Jamal Khashoggi at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul."
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Old 18th May 2020, 04:50 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

Oh, its true alright
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nat...turkey-n943926

"Special counsel Robert Mueller disclosed more details Tuesday of former national security adviser Michael Flynn’s efforts to cover up the extent of his ties to the government of Turkey while he was a top official on President Donald Trump’s campaign and transition.

The documents specifically state that a key component of Flynn’s work for Turkey involved the government’s efforts to remove from the U.S. a Turkish cleric living in Pennsylvania. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan accuses the cleric, Fethullah Gulen, of orchestrating a failed coup against him in July 2016. Flynn began working for Turkey about a month later.

"Federal prosecutors said in the court filing, which refers to Gulen, though not by name, that Flynn’s decision not to disclose that he was aiding the Turkish government "impeded the ability of the public to learn about the Republic of Turkey's efforts to influence public opinion about the failed coup, including its efforts to effectuate the removal of a person legally residing in the United States."

Since the failed coup, Turkey has repeatedly demanded the U.S. extradite Gulen. The Trump White House recently asked federal law enforcement agencies to look into legal ways to remove the cleric from the U.S. in attempt to ease Erdogan’s anger after the Saudi government’s murder of Jamal Khashoggi at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul."
None of that implies an attempt to kidnap this person as was claimed. Where is that crazy conspiracy nonsense coming from?

I'm happy to believe that he may have failed to properly declare lobbying activities. That sounds like the sort of stuff that goes on in Washington. There seems to be some question of whether it was the Turkish government that he was working for, or a Turkish company. Maybe that distinction doesn't matter? If we entertain the idea that there was an attempt to get him, then maybe it does? I'm not sure I quite take the prosecutors summary of events as the unbiased truth... but sure.... this at least doesn't sound implausible on its face.
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Old 18th May 2020, 08:20 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Remember also that Judge Sullivan was really pissed over Flynn, musing out loud about the possibility of calling treason.
Which he later backtracked and apologized for because he screwed up the timeline.
Quote:
Sullivan’s theory was that Flynn acted as a foreign agent for Turkey at the same time he was the president’s national security adviser. This basic timeline, on which Sullivan’s remarks depended, was incorrect. Flynn’s work for the Turkish government ended before he began his official position. For that error, Sullivan apologized in court Monday.

Quote:
And don't overlook his undeclared status as a lobbyist for Turkey, for pay.
And don't forget to overlook the fact that Flynn's business partner at FIG had his FARA conviction thrown out due insufficient evidence.



Quote:
I've seen reporting that Flynn was planning to kidnap an enemy of Erodogan's for money, and deliver him over to the Turks, FFS.
I've seen a lot of reporting about a video that contained Trump and prostitutes he paid to urinate on a bed once slept in by Obama…
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Old 18th May 2020, 08:37 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
None of that implies an attempt to kidnap this person as was claimed. Where is that crazy conspiracy nonsense coming from?
It isn't kidnapping, it is basic extraordinary rendition and not a big deal. Par for the course with the spook types like Flynn. If you view it as a serious crime then like thinking torture is illegal things get hard to take the high ground as an american.
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Old 18th May 2020, 08:48 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
His name was "masked" on a recording of the call made by the security services. Unmasking revealed it was Flynn. It was a heinous crime to investigate a criminal.
Yes, actually, it was.

The security services in question are permitted to monitor communications by foreign nationals. They are prohibited from monitoring communications by citizens, without a proper warrant.

When the security services are monitoring communications between foreign nationals and citizens, they are required to redact the identity of the citizen, to avoid violating their prohibition and committing government overreach. Overriding the redaction without a proper warrant is indeed a heinous crime, as it should be. Prosecuting on the basis of illegal unmasking is also a crime, as it should be.

It is a long-standing principle of good jurisprudence and rule of law that a case built on violation of due process must be thrown out, even if the case does prove its allegations.

As a matter of law, agents of the state are not permitted to seek justice by cheating. As a matter of principle, I don't think the state can bring justice by cheating. Even guilty people are entitled to due process. Even guilty people should go free if the state cheats in trying to bring them to justice. If government officials broke the rules to go after Flynn, then it is they, and not Flynn, who should be prosecuted.

I'd like to see an argument that opens with explicit agreement with this principle of rule of law, and then goes on to defend Flynn's unmasking on the basis of that agreement.
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