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Old 11th August 2020, 11:27 AM   #41
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Considering the original question and not the silly terminology of what a democratic republic is or should be...I would suggest that since the people most loudly alleging the potential for voter fraud are those who have alleged it in the past and told outright lies about things that did not happen, the current suggestion should be taken with a grain of salt. I don't think it's too difficult to calculate how much fraud will occur, and to control it, as has been done in the past in many places.

Of course I'm sure it will vary from place to place, but here in Vermont mail in ballots have become very common although the polls remain open. We count votes by paper ballot anyway, so it's not much difference. The town sends a packet of ballots. In the case of the open primaries, there's an envelope for the ones you don't use, and one for the party you do use. Sign seal and send. As understand it, they'll toss the first batch without even opening them, so those who don't follow instructions will lose their vote, just as they would if they put their ballots in the wrong box at the polls. We'll find out tonight how it's all worked. My guess is that it will work just fine.

e.t.a. in our small town and many like it, there has been a secondary method for polling with absentee ballots: the Town Clerk collects them either in person or from a dedicated post box at the town hall. This allows people the certainty of timely delivery without having to poll in person. In a small town, this also, of course, diminishes the possibility of fraud, since the Town Clerk knows everyone.

But once again, given the dismal record so far of Trump's allegations of fraud, I would not trust him or anyone speaking on his behalf to tell the truth. I might be charitable enough to suggest that some people are making baseless speculation, but in too many cases that's excessive charity, since I would not hesitate to call Trump and his cronies outright liars.
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Old 11th August 2020, 11:53 AM   #42
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He had a commission looking into voter fraud. A blue ribbon panel, IIRC. What do those people who have spent the last few years studying voter fraud in the 2016 election have to say about mail-in ballots?
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Old 11th August 2020, 11:53 AM   #43
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Just yesterday Trump continued to spread his lies about mail in voting fraud when he claimed

Quote:
there were thousands of "missing" and "fraudulent" ballots in the New York Democratic congressional primary.

Facts First: There has been no evidence to date of fraudulent voting in the New York primaries, much less the kind of widespread voter fraud Trump has wrongly insisted is a common feature of mail-in voting generally and in this particular race.
Rather, New York's ballot-counting was slow because the state has had administrative problems -- ranging from insufficient staffing to outdated technology -- in trying to count a much larger than usual number of absentee votes. There is a legal dispute about some ballots that had been invalidated because of issues like missing or late postmarks and missing signatures, but there is no evidence these issues involved fraud.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/10/polit...eck/index.html

Nothing supports Trump's lies about mail in voting fraud. This is nothing more than his need set up someone and something to blame if he loses in November. It's not only mail in ballots he's blaming, it's the Dems:

Quote:
"I'll tell you who's meddling in our elections: The Democrats are meddling. By wanting and insisting on sending mail-in ballots, where there's corruption all over the place."
If there's one thing we know about Trump, it's that he is not a gracious loser. He's a petty, petty little boy in a man's body who never takes responsibility for anything (unless it benefits him) and blames everyone else around him for his own failures.
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:05 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
As a left-handed person, I find this offensive.
How Gauche.
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:10 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
How Gauche.
Ur hur ur hur
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:16 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
It's a floor wax!
Sad effort, Nationally it's a republic, for which it stands.
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:17 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Sad effort, Nationally it's a republic, for which it stands.
Okay. Fine. Whatever. It's not champagne its sparkling wine.

Why not count all the votes in a Republic then?

Is voter suppression okay in a Republic?

Will you address this or try to change the subject?
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:28 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If there's one thing we know about Trump, it's that he is not a gracious loser. He's a petty, petty little boy in a man's body who never takes responsibility for anything (unless it benefits him) and blames everyone else around him for his own failures.

Gracious loser? He's not even a gracious winner. He kept insisting that voter fraud cost him the popular vote in 2016.
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:33 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Gracious loser? He's not even a gracious winner. He kept insisting that voter fraud cost him the popular vote in 2016.
True nuff. It had to be fraud because how in the world could that record breaking inauguration crowd not be reflective of the popular vote win too?
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Old 11th August 2020, 01:22 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Just yesterday Trump continued to spread his lies about mail in voting fraud when he claimed


https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/10/polit...eck/index.html

Nothing supports Trump's lies about mail in voting fraud. This is nothing more than his need set up someone and something to blame if he loses in November. It's not only mail in ballots he's blaming, it's the Dems:



If there's one thing we know about Trump, it's that he is not a gracious loser. He's a petty, petty little boy in a man's body who never takes responsibility for anything (unless it benefits him) and blames everyone else around him for his own failures.
Yeah, he doesn't have a clue about the NY voting. The primary was on June 22. They were not allowed to start counting mail-in ballots until July 1. That counting was all done in the central elections office. I don't know how they chose what order to do them in, but it took a couple of days for each district (there were like 35000 mail-in votes and only 15K in-person votes in NY01, I know). With all the districts in NY, take a couple of days to count each one and it takes time.

I know people involved in the election were anxious to get the results, but I don't know of anyone complaining about the integrity.
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Old 11th August 2020, 01:51 PM   #51
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Well...

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
They are both

Republic – A system where government is a public matter.
Democracy – A system that allows the public to control law, leaders and/or government.


All functioning Democracies are Republics by definition and in all of history there has been no examples of a functioning Republic that was not a Democracy.
A man differs from lolmiller at some personal risk, but:

Another definition of a republic is a government where the franchise is restricted to a certain class or other subset of the inhabitants. Athens in the 5th. century BC comes to mind, as does medieval Venice. England before Reform should be considered a republic, as were various American states initially, where voters were supposed to meet property qualifications. (I capitalize Reform as if it was an event rather than a long process. But at least it had a clear beginning.)

The reason American rightists harp on that frayed "it's a Reeeeepublick!" string is because they hanker for a VERY restricted franchise: no damn ole crats, no libberulz, no immigrunts, no cathlix, no jews, n specially no

uppity you knows.

Needless to say, I like your refinement of the word "republic." I believe I can finally start hearing it with approval, after a lifetime of listening to it come out of some very dirty mouths.
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Old 11th August 2020, 02:47 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
... Republic – A system where government is a public matter.
Democracy – A system that allows the public to control law, leaders and/or government.

All functioning Democracies are Republics by definition and in all of history there has been no examples of a functioning Republic that was not a Democracy.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
There is also the alternate definition of republic which is "not a monarchy", but I doubt that's how he meant it.

For as long as I can remember (and I can remember back to the 1950s) I've heard people making the statement that the US isn't a democracy, it's a republic. The point they were making was that [to them] democracy meant majority rule, and that the US was not set up to be by majority rule but rather to respect certain basic rights for all people including those in a minority.

A majority holding certain religious beliefs, for example, was forbidden by the constitution from imposing its religious beliefs on a minority which didn't choose to hold those beliefs. That was something which had been a problem for many US colonists from England (and a key reason for their leaving England), and it was something a number of US colonists wanted to be able to do now that they were the majority. The US founders set up the US to prevent a majority from being able to do that. Hence the distinction I often heard people make that the US was a republic rather than a democracy. This was generally seen as being a good thing by those making the distinction.

One problem with the distinction is that it's based on a poor definition of democracy and a poor understanding of majority vote.

The US system of government is based on voting, but it's not really based on majority vote or majority rule -- which are not the same thing. There are many different possible voting systems, but even majority voting systems are not the same as majority rule.

Majority rule is an ideal, something which people who use a voting system often aspire to attain but which in practice is almost never attained. One reason voting systems rarely reach a decision which represents the majority will is because in a large and diverse enough population there almost never is a majority will. Rather, there are a large number of different views held by group members, none of which is the first choice of a majority but many of which could be acceptable to a plurality of the voters. One of the options will get chosen as the result of voting, but which one gets chosen generally depends more on how well the different factions maneuver and how well they can manipulate the system than on how well the option is liked.

The only sure way of getting a choice approved by a majority rather than a plurality is by limiting the options to two choices. And that simply means that the outcome of that vote yielded a majority, not that a majority actually likes the selected outcome. For example, in 2016 Hillary Clinton received a plurality of the votes cast in the presidential election, but did not receive a majority. (And that's if we only look at the votes cast; a plurality of the electorate declined to vote for either Clinton or Trump.) Donald Trump won a majority of the electoral college vote, but he most certainly was not the preferred choice of a majority of the American people. The majority did not want either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump to be president; if asked whether they wanted Hillary Clinton or someone else to be president, a majority would have said someone else, and if asked whether they wanted Donald Trump and someone else to be president, a majority would have said someone else. (But getting any genuine majority agreement on who that someone else should be would have been difficult if not impossible.)

Democracy, at least as defined in the field of mathematical politics, is a system in which people in a group have some say in determining the outcome of decisions in that group. If there is a set of x people who get some say in what gets decided, then the system is democratic with respect to that set of people. If the set is large enough as a proportion of the whole group, then the system is generally considered democratic even though it's not democratic for everyone.

I am not aware of any country where everyone living there actually gets a say. In the US, for instance, where voting is the method by which people are given a say, there were (and continue to be) many people who are excluded from being allowed to vote for a variety of reasons. Nevertheless, a large enough proportion of the population is (at least in theory) given a say as to what the policies governing the country will be that the US is considered to fall into the broad category of democracy.

Even so, it's good to recognize that the US does not operate simply by voting, let alone by majority voting, and that all people are (at least in theory) entitled to certain rights regardless of whether the majority of people wish to honor those rights or not.

The US system of government is set up to prevent (or at least make it more difficult for) a majority to take away those basic rights from a minority. Some of the ways the US does this include requiring a super-majority (such as 2/3 or 3/4) to win in certain instances (which means a 1/3 or 1/4 minority wins the vote in those instances); providing ways by which a minority may delay or prevent decisions they strongly oppose (such as the filibuster and various other procedural customs and rules); and setting up a separation of powers among the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government so that the different branches can rein each other in if one tries to pass or enforce policies which take away the rights of a minority.

These are the kinds of things which people I've heard in the past make the point about the US being a republic rather than a democracy have meant. But today there are many people who are not so much interested in rational discussion as in finding ways to dispute whatever their opponents in a discussion say, so it's possible there are now people who say the US is a republic rather than a democracy simply as a way to disparage someone's reference to the US as a democracy.

Rockysmith's comment about the US being a republic was made in response to a comment by JoeMorgue about how the US should be making it easier (rather than harder) for all US voters to be able to exercise their right to vote. And the point JoeMorgue made ties in well with the ideals held by people who in the past have made the point about the US being a republic. Their point was that an important part of what makes the US system of government good is its ideal of protecting the rights of minorities and keeping them from being oppressed by majorities simply because they're outnumbered, but that's wordier than simply saying that the US isn't a democracy, it's a republic.

Efforts to deny the ability to vote to people we are able to overpower, as many Republicans have been trying to do in recent decades and appear to be trying to do again with their efforts to make mail-in voting more difficult, run contrary to that ideal; efforts to protect people's ability to take part in elections, such as those being made by those working to make mail-in voting a real and practical option in the upcoming elections, are very much in line with that ideal. So I'd like to think rockysmith made the comment about the US being a republic to support what JoeMorgue said. Unfortunately I suspect that's not the case.

I hope rockysmith will return to state more clearly what their point with that statement is. And if rockysmith doesn't agree with what JoeMorgue said I hope rockysmith will explain that disagreement more clearly, because while JoeMorgue referred to the US as a democracy in that comment, it appears to me that the sentiments expressed by JoeMorgue are a good representation of the ideals underlying the statement that the US is a republic. So far it's hard to tell whether rockysmith's beliefs tie in with those ideals as well as JoeMorgue's appear to.

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Old 11th August 2020, 02:52 PM   #53
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Paraphrasing a comment from the earlier attempt - I don't mind a trolling thread, but I object to a cut-rate one.

No comments on substantive replies, just BS about a republic. Adiós.
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Old 11th August 2020, 02:55 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
What are the thoughts out there about Mail in ballots? Will it open the door to Voting Corruption or is it just another manifestion of Covid 19?
The idea that mail in ballots will lead to voter fraud is a fiction, spread by GOP and Trump because they know that it will give greater access to the right to vote to citizens who are less likely to vote for them. Have you noticed how they are happy for mail in ballots to proceed in safe red states, but oppose it in those purple and swing states?

There is no evidence of even minor cases of voter fraud.

For years, Republican States have worked hard to make voting less accessible to potential Democrat voters by analyzing the districts where liberal voters are predominant, and making it harder for them to access polling stations (see Dodge City Kansas, a predominantly liberal town that had one polling station for a population of 13,000 and its located several miles out of town with no bus services).

The rise of mail-in voting would undo a lot of that voter suppression work.
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Old 11th August 2020, 03:01 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Paraphrasing a comment from the earlier attempt - I don't mind a trolling thread, but I object to a cut-rate one.

No comments on substantive replies, just BS about a republic. Adiós.
Oh c'mon. How could the OP stimulate substantive replies? And the topic of republic/democracy is worth some discussion.
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Old 11th August 2020, 03:13 PM   #56
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If the names of the two parties were reversed, while maintaining the same constituencies and policies, we'd be hearing "it's not a republic, it's a democracy".
Today's Democratic party was, IIRC originally the "Democratic Republican" party.
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Old 11th August 2020, 03:36 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
A monarch that is a ceremonial head of state still leaves ultimate authority in the hands of the public, which is the core definition for a Republic. Hence the term “Crowned Republic”.
Maybe but I don't think the UK calls itself a republic.
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Old 11th August 2020, 03:39 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
How Gauche.
That's a sinister implication.
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Old 11th August 2020, 04:17 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's a sinister implication.
That topic's best left alone.
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Old 11th August 2020, 05:57 PM   #60
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Voted by mail for a looooong time in. Oregon. It’s not scary. I miss working polls and whatnot, but it’s effective in reflecting the real vote. I think that’s what scares some people. The voice of Americans
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Old 11th August 2020, 06:13 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
If the names of the two parties were reversed, while maintaining the same constituencies and policies, we'd be hearing "it's not a republic, it's a democracy".
Today's Democratic party was, IIRC originally the "Democratic Republican" party.
That's the little-endian version. The big-endian version is the other way around, since as far as I recall, the Democratic Republican party split into both.
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Old 11th August 2020, 06:46 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
That's the little-endian version. The big-endian version is the other way around, since as far as I recall, the Democratic Republican party split into both.
This

IIR my American history classes correctly, it used to be Democrats (right wing) v Whigs (left wing)
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Old 12th August 2020, 12:40 AM   #63
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Postal voting has been practiced in Australia for a long time without any issues. They make it as easy as possible to register and vote. No need for any id at any stage.

The AEC will come round to our houses and ask who lives there and compare that with the electoral roll.
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Old 12th August 2020, 01:15 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Postal voting has been practiced in Australia for a long time without any issues. They make it as easy as possible to register and vote. No need for any id at any stage.

The AEC will come round to our houses and ask who lives there and compare that with the electoral roll.
Yes, but you see, you don't have those nasty, lying, cheating Dummycrats out to steal your elections in order to take your guns away, kill all those innocent babies, not let you say "Merry Christmas", take away your freedoms, and impose socialism on you!
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Old 12th August 2020, 04:43 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
If the names of the two parties were reversed, while maintaining the same constituencies and policies, we'd be hearing "it's not a republic, it's a democracy".
I'm a little embarrassed to say that I hadn't thought of that.
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Old 12th August 2020, 05:16 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
That topic's best left alone.
You're right.
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Old 12th August 2020, 06:17 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yes, but you see, you don't have those nasty, lying, cheating Dummycrats out to steal your elections in order to take your guns away, kill all those innocent babies, not let you say "Merry Christmas", take away your freedoms, and impose socialism on you!

It's also well established that policies and procedures that work with no significant problems in other countries won't work in the US because of ... (vague hand waving) ... something, something, population size ... (more hand waving) ... reasons.
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Old 12th August 2020, 06:17 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yes, but you see, you don't have those nasty, lying, cheating Dummycrats out to steal your elections in order to take your guns away, kill all those innocent babies, not let you say "Merry Christmas", take away your freedoms, and impose socialism on you!
You mean our conservative party? That sort of behaviour is actually their bag, not the centre-left party. Seriously!
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Old 12th August 2020, 08:18 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're right.
Dexterous, sir, dexterous!
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Old 12th August 2020, 08:47 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Dexterous, sir, dexterous!
This conversation is starting to leave me ambivalent.
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Old 12th August 2020, 08:53 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This conversation is starting to leave me ambivalent.
Nice try at hand-waving the issue.
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Old 12th August 2020, 09:00 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Nice try at hand-waving the issue.
Oh, quit it with the off-hand remarks.
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Old 12th August 2020, 09:09 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Just yesterday Trump continued to spread his lies about mail in voting fraud when he claimed

Quote:
there were thousands of "missing" and "fraudulent" ballots in the New York Democratic congressional primary.

Facts First: There has been no evidence to date of fraudulent voting in the New York primaries, much less the kind of widespread voter fraud Trump has wrongly insisted is a common feature of mail-in voting generally and in this particular race.
Rather, New York's ballot-counting was slow because the state has had administrative problems -- ranging from insufficient staffing to outdated technology -- in trying to count a much larger than usual number of absentee votes. There is a legal dispute about some ballots that had been invalidated because of issues like missing or late postmarks and missing signatures, but there is no evidence these issues involved fraud.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/10/polit...eck/index.html

Nothing supports Trump's lies about mail in voting fraud. This is nothing more than his need set up someone and something to blame if he loses in November. It's not only mail in ballots he's blaming, it's the Dems:



If there's one thing we know about Trump, it's that he is not a gracious loser. He's a petty, petty little boy in a man's body who never takes responsibility for anything (unless it benefits him) and blames everyone else around him for his own failures.
Is it not the case that 1 in 5 ballots in new york were rejected?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ele...imary-n1236143

Surely that either means widespread fraud or widespread disenfranchisement?

Maybe the issues can be bottomed out before November?
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Old 12th August 2020, 09:17 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, quit it with the off-hand remarks.
What can I say? We live in the digital age.
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Old 12th August 2020, 09:21 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
What can I say? We live in the digital age.
I'm sure there's a fallacy for that but I can't put my finger on it.
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Old 12th August 2020, 10:21 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm sure there's a fallacy for that but I can't put my finger on it.
::<facepalm>::
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Old 12th August 2020, 10:39 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm sure there's a fallacy for that but I can't put my finger on it.
Nailed it ! You really cut to the quick there
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Old 12th August 2020, 10:50 AM   #78
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Don't claw us back into this, Don.
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Old 12th August 2020, 11:18 AM   #79
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I think all of you are being very callous.
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Old 12th August 2020, 11:21 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think all of you are being very callous.
Yes, I'm sure that the sole reason.
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