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Tags Amy Coney Barrett , obituaries , Ruth Bader Ginsburg , Supreme Court issues , Supreme Court justices

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Old 18th September 2020, 06:14 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think people didn't hear me.

We get McConnell/Trump/the Senate to delay the confirmation of a new Justice.

That means we don't have a full, functioning Supreme Court to make legal decisions during the election.

So what happens when Trump declares himself the winner before the absentee ballots are counted? Or throws out a state because their election was "rigged?"

What happens then?
What makes you think Roberts wants 4 more years of Trump?
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:15 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Probably, but probably not more than a week after. They'll want to either flaunt their continued power or take revenge on the constituencies that voted out some of their stooges.
Wait to see which lower court election issues might go to - then decide to fill it or not. If a lower court is likely to rule in Trump's favor then a tied SC is good for him. If a lower court is likely to rule against him, ram that new justice through in a day or two to be ready to overturn the lower court.

This may be ugly, very ugly.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:18 PM   #83
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This just shows how much the Americans have ****** up their political system.

A country's supreme court is not supposed to be political. It's supposed to be an independent entity. But in the US, it's one of the most political entities there is.

Politicians campaign on the supreme court. How insane is that?
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:19 PM   #84
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Trump is still unaware of RBG's passing. He is talking about SCOTUS as people yell "Ginsburg is dead!" to try to clue him in.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:21 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump is still unaware of RBG's passing. He is talking about SCOTUS as people yell "Ginsburg is dead!" to try to clue him in.
He's aware now. He's made a generic statement.

Quote:
President Trump appeared to hear the news about Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's passing from reporters.

"Just now?" he responded, when asked about her death.

"She led an amazing life. What else can you say?" Trump said. "She was an amazing woman whether you agree or not she was an amazing woman who led an amazing life."

After his comments, Trump walked up the stairs to board Air Force One. Trump had been holding a rally in Minnesota when news of Ginsburg's death broke.
CNN: https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/rut...97c568d91270f5

ETA: For what it's worth at this point the expression on his face in the picture in the CNN article does seem to be some recognizable negative human emotion. At least he didn't start giggling like a schoolgirl and pop a boner.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 18th September 2020 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:21 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The real issue is that even if Trump loses and the Repubs lose the Senate, they will still control the Senate for two months. Nothing, even fear of electoral consequences, would prevent a lame-duck Senate from confirming somebody.

That might not be as easy as people think. First the Republicans need to get the nominee approved by the senate judiciary committee. In order to do that, the committee needs to meet and vote to approve the nominee, which calls for a quorum.

But a quorum for the judiciary committee is different from a quorum for the senate itself. Only 7 members of the committee need to be present for the committee to meet -- but 9 members, including at least 2 members of the minority party, need to be present in order for the committee to conduct any business. And approving a nomination is pretty definitely in the conducting business category. So Democrats simply need to make sure that only 1 Democratic member comes to the committee meeting, in order to point out that there is not a quorum and therefore no business can be conducted.

If the Republicans are able to gain a quorum and pass a vote for the nominee to be sent to the senate for a full confirmation vote, again they will need to obtain a quorum as well as get a vote through. If Democrats are prepared to do whatever they can to prevent a vote (including walking out to prevent there being a quorum if filibustering and other procedural methods are blocked), it will take virtually every Republican returning to DC for the session to get the nominee confirmed. They may be willing to make that kind of effort, but I can see a number of GOP members who may not be willing to vote against the nominee finding reasons why they are not able to be in DC during the time between the nomination being submitted and January 3, when the new congressional term begins.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:21 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Nova Land View Post
Actually the Florida Supreme Court is a lower court in the judicial hierarchy to the US Supreme Court, so I believe what I said is correct.

My point was simply that cases work their way up to the Supreme Court and what the Supreme Court is deciding is whether a previous ruling is correct. In the event of a tie on the Supreme Court, whatever the ruling was on the matter before the matter reached the Supreme Court would stand. So a tie in the Supreme Court does not create the kind of impossibly irreconcilable situation JoeMorgue appeared to fear it would.
My point was that cases usually get to the Supreme Court after winding their way through the federal system, even after they are decided by the highest state court, and then they would usually start at the lowest federal level. I think it's unusual for any case to go from state courts directly to the U.S. Supreme Court.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:24 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Yeah, that concerns me too. They have time to wait until after the election and then push the nomination through in December. Lame duck senators will have nothing to lose, and those who were reelected will figure it won't matter by the next time they are up for election.
That's when Biden threatens to use the nuclear option, increase the number of seats on the bench.

Think about it, RBG is a liberal but the court will still be a 5-4 religious right leaning court if Biden replaces her.

OTOH, there will be tremendous pressure on Biden to put his foot down if a nominee is rushed through when Obama was denied his rightful nominee. Biden, with a Senate majority, can expand the court and take away that 5-4 advantage.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:25 PM   #89
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Murkowski has said that she would not vote to confirm a new nominee "before the election" but that still leaves open the question about the period after the election but before the next congress.

https://www.alaskapublic.org/2020/09...d-of-election/

Quote:
“I would not vote to confirm a Supreme Court nominee. We are 50 some days away from an election,” she said.
Are reporters so dumb that they don't know there is going to be a lame duck session of congress?
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:25 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The real issue is that even if Trump loses and the Repubs lose the Senate, they will still control the Senate for two months. Nothing, even fear of electoral consequences, would prevent a lame-duck Senate from confirming somebody.
They have a tough map in 2022 as well. Grassley (IA), Burr (NC), Johnson (WI), Rubio (FL), Murkowski (AK), Portman (OH), and Toomey (PA) are all up. And the few vulnerable Dems will be fortified.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:27 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
OK, I feel for her family of course, but...

For myself, I feel almost as devastated as when Trump was surprisingly elected, knowing it's going to be a ******-up ride for the next several years.

I'm going to have to turn off the news because hearing nothing but this and its implications over the next several days would be personally... detrimental, at the least.
I already turned the news off. I just lost my dog 2 days ago and I can't take any more of this **** right now.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:28 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Murkowski has said that she would not vote to confirm a new nominee "before the election" but that's kind of leaves open the question about the period after the election but before the next congress.

https://www.alaskapublic.org/2020/09...d-of-election/

Are reporters so dumb that they don't know there is going to be a lame duck session of congress?
She's putting off the decision. She can decide what to do after the election depending on who wins.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:30 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I already turned the news off. I just lost my dog 2 days ago and I can't take any more of this **** right now.
Don't let McConnell find out. He'll send you a new one that you don't want.

Last edited by Bob001; 18th September 2020 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:32 PM   #94
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Ted Cruz on Fox

"I believe that the president should next week nominee a successor to the court, and I think it is critical that the Senate takes up and confirms that successor before Election Day, this nomination is why Donald Trump was elected."
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:33 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Don't let McConnell find out. He'll send you a new one that you don't want.
A new dog?

Sorry, not in the mood.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:33 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Are reporters so dumb that they don't know there is going to be a lame duck session of congress?
Yes, they are that dumb.

One of the more frustrating times in my memory was the two months after the 2008 election, where several TV pundits complained about Obama not doing anything about the housing market collapse. There had been an election, Obama had won, but he wasn't doing anything about the enormous economic crises we were facing.

They just could not internalize that Obama was not president yet.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:38 PM   #97
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Seems people are saying Romney is suggesting he won't confirm anyone until after election.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:38 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Sad.

And sadder still is that her passing will be turned into a political circus.

Exhibit A: This thread so far.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:39 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Yes, they are that dumb.

One of the more frustrating times in my memory was the two months after the 2008 election, where several TV pundits complained about Obama not doing anything about the housing market collapse. There had been an election, Obama had won, but he wasn't doing anything about the enormous economic crises we were facing.

They just could not internalize that Obama was not president yet.

Were they on Fox? It's hard to believe that mainstream journalists don't understand what president-elect means.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:48 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
This just shows how much the Americans have ****** up their political system.

A country's supreme court is not supposed to be political. It's supposed to be an independent entity. But in the US, it's one of the most political entities there is.

Politicians campaign on the supreme court. How insane is that?
I agree. It really shouldn't be a political thing at all, in an ideal world. But it's been political for a long time. Perhaps from the very beginning. Certainly since Roe v. Wade.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:51 PM   #101
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Im not as worried as some of you. Its true we are in a pickle but there are a lot of variables. Lindsey Graham is in a dead heat in his race. A bunch of lame ducks could be dangerous, but if there are enough of them Dems take the Senate. They cant undo a confirmation but they might expand the court (not sure how that works). I still think Trump is alienating more people than hes picking up. He may be combative but hes not courageous. He might not have the stomach for trying to fight for his seat. Governors must be mightily pissed at him for several reasons, like suggesting they are the enemy this election cycle. Replacing RBG with a rammed-through appointment would turn a lot of people off.

I also suspect that a bunch of noisy pro-lifers are actually not that eager to throw out Roe v Wade.

Whistling in the dark I may be, but remember, there are always unintended consequences. And if we were only one death away from totalitarianism we were already ******* before she died.

And if Republicans do get some kind of stranglehold on all branches of government theyre likely to rip themselves apart.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:52 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Seems people are saying Romney is suggesting he won't confirm anyone until after election.
Which leaves the question of the lame duck session unanswered.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:53 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
They just could not internalize that Obama was not president yet.
They knew. It was all theater. Really all they had to offer at that point.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:56 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I already turned the news off. I just lost my dog 2 days ago and I can't take any more of this **** right now.
Im very sorry to hear that.

Good call to turn off the news for now IMO.
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:57 PM   #105
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Biden:
"In the coming days, we should focus on the loss of [RBG] & her enduring legacy. But there is no doubt - let me be clear - that the voters should pick the POTUS & the POTUS should pick the Justice for the Senate to consider. This was the position the GOP Senate took in 16"
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:01 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
My point was that cases usually get to the Supreme Court after winding their way through the federal system, even after they are decided by the highest state court, and then they would usually start at the lowest federal level. I think it's unusual for any case to go from state courts directly to the U.S. Supreme Court.

I did not say that cases go from state courts directly to the US supreme court and I'm sorry you got that impression from what I wrote.

My point was simply that cases do not start at the Supreme Court. Before a case gets to the Supreme Court, others have made decisions about what should or should not be done in a situation and the Supreme Court is deciding whether those previous decisions are correct.

If the Supreme Court is not able to reach a decision because it has an evenly split number of members, that's not a problem. It simply means that the last decision on the matter to be made before the case reached the Supreme Court remains in effect.
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:06 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Biden:
"In the coming days, we should focus on the loss of [RBG] & her enduring legacy. But there is no doubt - let me be clear - that the voters should pick the POTUS & the POTUS should pick the Justice for the Senate to consider. This was the position the GOP Senate took in 16"
Why should some hypothetical senate wait in this scenario?

And did the senate wait before? They seemed to express their position pretty clearly even if they didn't say it in words. Silence speaks mountains.
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:09 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Whistling in the dark I may be, but remember, there are always unintended consequences. And if we were only one death away from totalitarianism we were already ******* before she died.
Yeah, about that...We were pretty much ****** before she died. One of the major issues with allowing one of two viable parties to

a) become a proto-fascist party,

b)assume control of all branches of government

In that order.
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:17 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Quote:
Biden:
"In the coming days, we should focus on the loss of [RBG] & her enduring legacy. But there is no doubt - let me be clear - that the voters should pick the POTUS & the POTUS should pick the Justice for the Senate to consider. This was the position the GOP Senate took in 16"
Why should some hypothetical senate wait in this scenario?
Ummmm... because the republicans themselves set the precedent when they refused to even consider the nomination of Merrek Garland for over half a year.

If you have a justice that dies near an election, either you always wait and let the election victor pick the nominee, or you always let the current president make the pick.

Quote:
And did the senate wait before?
Scalia died in February of 2016. Obama picked Garland in March 2016. The election was in November.

The seat was allowed to stay vacant for over half a year before the election.

So yeah, the republican-led senate waited. Held up the appointment.
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:19 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I’m not as worried as some of you. It’s true we are in a pickle but there are a lot of variables. Lindsey Graham is in a dead heat in his race. A bunch of lame ducks could be dangerous, but if there are enough of them Dems take the Senate. They can’t undo a confirmation but they might expand the court (not sure how that works). I still think Trump is alienating more people than he’s picking up. He may be combative but he’s not courageous. He might not have the stomach for trying to fight for his seat. Governors must be mightily pissed at him for several reasons, like suggesting they are the enemy this election cycle. Replacing RBG with a rammed-through appointment would turn a lot of people off.

I also suspect that a bunch of noisy pro-lifers are actually not that eager to throw out Roe v Wade.

Whistling in the dark I may be, but remember, there are always unintended consequences. And if we were only one death away from totalitarianism we were already ******* before she died.

And if Republicans do get some kind of stranglehold on all branches of government they’re likely to rip themselves apart.
The highlighted is kind of what I'm thinking ("hoping" might be more accurate). McConnell's argument for why the Trump and the Repubs should get their way on replacing RBG strikes me as a somewhat abstruse, technical politician's argument- enough for the rank-and-file Trumpkins who won't really understand it anyway, on any deeper a level than "trolled the libs, ha ha!"; and maybe enough to get the Republican senators seen as doubtful onboard with the hypocrites. But, at what cost? This is one time when Democrats have the more easily expressed and comprehended arguments- confront McConnell with his own words from four years ago- "The American people are perfectly capable of having their say on this issue, so let's give them a voice. Let's let the American people decide"- and ask him why he doesn't think the American people are still perfectly capable of having their say, right now, not two years ago or whenever. Like this-
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Biden:
"In the coming days, we should focus on the loss of [RBG] & her enduring legacy. But there is no doubt - let me be clear - that the voters should pick the POTUS & the POTUS should pick the Justice for the Senate to consider. This was the position the GOP Senate took in 16"
Shout that from the rooftops, shine a searchlight on the GOPs hypocrisy. Yeah, it may be shouting into the wind, but it may work well enough to exact a higher cost than the GOP really wants to pay for four more years of the ****-show that has been Trump. If nothing else, highlighting hypocrisy just needs to be done- what's the alternative, lie there quietly and take it?
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:19 PM   #111
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One expects that the cocktails are flowing at the White House and throughout the Senate Office Building tonight. I hope the celebratory footage goes viral, and juxtaposed with the alleged Muslim celebrants on 9-11 as to who is celebrating a tragic moment for the nation.
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:26 PM   #112
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Ummmm... because the republicans themselves set the precedent when they refused to even consider the nomination of Merrek Garland for over half a year.

If you have a justice that dies near an election, either you always wait and let the election victor pick the nominee, or you always let the current president make the pick.


Scalia died in February of 2016. Obama picked Garland in March 2016. The election was in November.

The seat was allowed to stay vacant for over half a year before the election.

So yeah, the republican-led senate waited. Held up the appointment.
A) there is no requirement to honor a non-precedent. If you don't have to honor it, what is the case for waiting?

B) they ghosted the nomination. In my (ample) experience, that is a no. The senate gets to determine their own procedure. Their approach seemed to have been a way to say no.
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:28 PM   #113
Venom
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Susan Collins
Cory Gardner
Lisa Murkowski
Mitt Romney

That's all we have to count on at the moment.

Time for Democrats to blast the airwaves with the implication of a 6-3 Supreme Court.
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:42 PM   #114
theprestige
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think people didn't hear me.

We get McConnell/Trump/the Senate to delay the confirmation of a new Justice.

That means we don't have a full, functioning Supreme Court to make legal decisions during the election.

So what happens when Trump declares himself the winner before the absentee ballots are counted? Or throws out a state because their election was "rigged?"

What happens then?
No.

The Supreme Court is fully operational with 8 justices. Or four. Or one.

It's hard to for me to imagine the kind of drugs that would be necessary to convince someone that the Supreme Court is invalid if one seat is vacant. Scopalamine and torture prior to a Soviet show trial, maybe?
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:45 PM   #115
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No.

The Supreme Court is fully operational with 8 justices. Or four. Or one.

It's hard to for me to imagine the kind of drugs that would be necessary to convince someone that the Supreme Court is invalid if one seat is vacant. Scopalamine and torture prior to a Soviet show trial, maybe?
And if you had zero judges....you would have possibly different decisions in different districts. That isn't awful.
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:47 PM   #116
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A) there is no requirement to honor a non-precedent. If you don't have to honor it, what is the case for waiting?
Because all political systems rely in part on at least some integrity and cooperation (even if some of that is based on unwritten rules/assumptions).

The republicans have been engaging in dirty tricks for years (of which the supreme court nominations are one factor). If at some point the decide that they cannot do anything under 'fair' rules, they too will start to engage in the same sort of dirty tricks. Society suffers as a result.
Quote:
B) they ghosted the nomination. In my (ample) experience, that is a no.
Your "experience" seems to be in bobbing threads.

"ghosting" the nomination is functionally equivalent, so please quite trying to argue how "they didn't delay it" just because you are using some bizarre definition that nobody else is using.
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:52 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Susan Collins
Cory Gardner
Lisa Murkowski
Mitt Romney

That's all we have to count on at the moment.
You can probably count on them right through election day. After that, they'll jump back in line and do whatever McConnell tells them to do.
Quote:
Time for Democrats to blast the airwaves with the implication of a 6-3 Supreme Court.
Why? The only audience that matters are the current senators, specially the Republican senators who absolutely want whatever unqualified arch conservative they can find. Even voting out every Republican senator up for reelection will do no good when it comes to this problem since they can come back into session and vote in whomever Trump appoints.

I like the idea of the quorum roadblock in the judiciary committee, but let's be real: Senate rules can change.

I have no hope at all on this issue.
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:53 PM   #118
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And if you had zero judges....you would have possibly different decisions in different districts. That isn't awful.
Given the fact that much of the country is populated/controlled by people who are rather awful themselves? (You know, the type that proudly fly the racist confederate flag and don't quite understand the basics of biology)

But hey! It would only be minorities and woman in the deep south that would be oppressed as a result! That's not a big deal!
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:54 PM   #119
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Because all political systems rely in part on at least some integrity and cooperation (even if some of that is based on unwritten rules/assumptions).

The republicans have been engaging in dirty tricks for years (of which the supreme court nominations are one factor). If at some point the decide that they cannot do anything under 'fair' rules, they too will start to engage in the same sort of dirty tricks. Society suffers as a result.

Your "experience" seems to be in bobbing threads.

"ghosting" the nomination is functionally equivalent, so please quite trying to argue how "they didn't delay it" just because you are using some bizarre definition that nobody else is using.
Is there a material difference between a no vote and not having the vote? The method used by the senate seems to have comparisons to the non-wars declared by congress. Regardless of what verbal gymnastics are used, it is rejection.

ETA: the government continuing to enact policy up to the last day in office sounds like the fair process.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 18th September 2020 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 18th September 2020, 07:56 PM   #120
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Given the fact that much of the country is populated/controlled by people who are rather awful themselves? (You know, the type that proudly fly the racist confederate flag and don't quite understand the basics of biology)

But hey! It would only be minorities and woman in the deep south that would be oppressed as a result! That's not a big deal!
Why would the circuit court be worse at protecting people in the circuit than the supreme court?
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