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Tags Amy Coney Barrett , obituaries , Ruth Bader Ginsburg , Supreme Court issues , Supreme Court justices

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Old 20th September 2020, 12:52 PM   #321
BobTheCoward
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Question

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I would probably use a number of words (mostly positive) before excellent.
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Old 20th September 2020, 02:07 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Yep - the people whining that it's her fault are essentially demanding **** she acquire the ability to see and change the future - obvious foolishness.
She was 80 years old in 2013 and had already had two bouts of cancer, It shouldn't have taken clairvoyance to see that hanging on until after another Presidential election wasn't a great plan.
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Old 20th September 2020, 02:13 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I would probably use a number of words (mostly positive) before excellent.
Defend it.
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Old 20th September 2020, 02:19 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How did your SC become so incredibly politicised and partisan?
Roe v Wade

Brown v Board of Education
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Old 20th September 2020, 02:19 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
RBG is only relevant in the context of Supreme Court matters.
But she isn't the only thing relevant in Supreme Court matters.
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Old 20th September 2020, 02:19 PM   #326
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To be fair, it probably seemed like an excellent plan, back when everyone thought that Donald Trump would never be president. After the 2016 election, RBG must have been horrified by the realization that she needed to hold out against creeping cancer for another four years.

Not to mention having to shoulder the burden of half the country thinking that they need RBG no matter what.
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Old 20th September 2020, 03:39 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Roe v Wade

Brown v Board of Education
Citizens United
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Old 20th September 2020, 03:44 PM   #328
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Lindsey Graham tweeted

@LindseyGrahamSC
US Senate candidate, SC
Democrats chose to set in motion rules changes to stack the court at the Circuit level and they chose to try to destroy Brett Kavanaugh’s life to keep the Supreme Court seat open.
You reap what you sow.

I stand by what I said in Jan. 2019: Harry Reid & Chuck Schumer changed Senate rules to try and stack the courts for Obama. Now it's coming back to haunt them as I predicted. I'm dead set on confirming @realDonaldTrump’s nominee. If you stand with me: https://teamgraham.us/hc5lqgws

I know Jaime Harrison -- who opposed the Kavanaugh nomination and joined the mob in the destruction of this fine man -- will oppose ANY Trump nominee.
I hope the people of South Carolina know that as well.

Jaime Harrison will be a loyal foot soldier in the cause of the radical liberals to destroy America as we know it.
As to me – I will be part of the Resistance and oppose their radical liberal agenda as they try to fundamentally change America.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 20th September 2020 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 20th September 2020, 04:01 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Lindsey Graham tweeted

@LindseyGrahamSC
US Senate candidate, SC
Democrats chose to set in motion rules changes to stack the court at the Circuit level and they chose to try to destroy Brett Kavanaugh’s life to keep the Supreme Court seat open.
You reap what you sow.

I stand by what I said in Jan. 2019: Harry Reid & Chuck Schumer changed Senate rules to try and stack the courts for Obama. Now it's coming back to haunt them as I predicted. I'm dead set on confirming @realDonaldTrump’s nominee. If you stand with me: https://teamgraham.us/hc5lqgws

I know Jaime Harrison -- who opposed the Kavanaugh nomination and joined the mob in the destruction of this fine man -- will oppose ANY Trump nominee.
I hope the people of South Carolina know that as well.

Jaime Harrison will be a loyal foot soldier in the cause of the radical liberals to destroy America as we know it.
As to me – I will be part of the Resistance and oppose their radical liberal agenda as they try to fundamentally change America.
What a piece of loathsome creature. Just like his master.
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Old 20th September 2020, 04:10 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Lindsey Graham tweeted

As to me – I will be part of the Resistance and oppose their radical liberal agenda as they try to fundamentally change America.
I see Graham has adopted the position that he's not the incumbent.

He doesn't seem to get that four years of Trump, the "radical liberal agenda" isn't such a scary thing. For one thing, it's not radical at all.

Unlike a lot of people here I don't thing "single party rule" would work out all that well for Republicans. That's where the real radicals in politics are these days, IMO. I think they would clash with one another on a lot of issues. They are not fundamentally interested in cooperation. They would still need winners and losers. They deadlocked on a simple immigration bill when they had the House.
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Old 20th September 2020, 04:19 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Citizens United
I suspect, but don't know for fact, that this is the real driver of calls for a "conservative" court. Abortion is useful for firing up an emotional base, but preserving the influence of big donors in politics is something the moneyed class can really get behind.
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Old 20th September 2020, 04:32 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Defend it.
"Good"

There. The first word drafted was not excellent. At this point, it I were to write a statement, I would have a probability of 1 if I stopped now
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Old 20th September 2020, 04:42 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
"Good"

There. The first word drafted was not excellent. At this point, it I were to write a statement, I would have a probability of 1 if I stopped now
That is not a defense. It's nonsense. But I'll leave it there because I'm not Alice.
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Old 20th September 2020, 04:49 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That is not a defense. It's nonsense. But I'll leave it there because I'm not Alice.
My claim was I would probably use a different word than excellent. I quoted from the draft where I used a different word. That is evidence I would probably use another word.
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Old 20th September 2020, 05:50 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Citizens United
Bush v. Gore
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Old 20th September 2020, 06:03 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Bush v. Gore
Come now, that decision was specifically stated to not be used as precedent because of...reasons...
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Old 20th September 2020, 08:26 PM   #337
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Well, there are at least 2 bright spots in this whole pile of crap...

1) Opinion polls show that a majority of people want the president and senate to wait before selecting a new supreme court judge.

From: Axios
A majority of Americans, including many Republicans, want the winner of the November presidential election to nominate the next Supreme Court justice, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll published on Sunday....8 in 10 Democrats and 5 in 10 Republicans said the nomination should wait....About 30% of those surveyed said that Ginsburg’s death will make them more likely to vote for Biden, while 25% said they were now more likely to support Trump.

I doubt it will be a major election issue (at least on its own), but if we're lucky it may be a case of being the "straw that broke the camel's back" for a few fence-sitters.

2) Democratic donations increased shortly after RBG's death...

From: CTV News
Democrats raised more than $71 million in the hours after Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's death, demonstrating how the liberal icon's passing and the contentious nomination fight that lies ahead have already galvanized the party's base....


I think its a good thing... in the past the Republicans seem to have used the appointment of judges as a major goal during elections. Maybe the democrats are going to start catching up.

On the other hand:

In Iowa, vulnerable Republican Sen. Joni Ernst sent out fundraising pleas shortly after Ginsburg's death was announced, drawing a swift online backlash....Ernst later issued an apology.

Since Iowa seems to be a swing state this election, hopefully this will harm Ernst's chances. (Trump's campaign also used the supreme court vacancy in its fundraising attempts. But since Trump is trying to appeal only to the MAGAchuds, he's a bit more tone-deaf.

Granted, neither of these make up for the loss of Ginsberg. I think that the prospect of another Trump appointee will speed the collapse of the United States.
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Old 20th September 2020, 08:38 PM   #338
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Duplicate post
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Old 20th September 2020, 09:04 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, there are at least 2 bright spots in this whole pile of crap...

1) Opinion polls show that a majority of people want the president and senate to wait before selecting a new supreme court judge.

From: Axios
A majority of Americans, including many Republicans, want the winner of the November presidential election to nominate the next Supreme Court justice, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll published on Sunday....8 in 10 Democrats and 5 in 10 Republicans said the nomination should wait....About 30% of those surveyed said that Ginsburg’s death will make them more likely to vote for Biden, while 25% said they were now more likely to support Trump.
That's almost the same level of public support for impeachment witnesses.
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Old 21st September 2020, 05:11 AM   #340
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Helldude at the Lathe of Heaven:

Originally Posted by Helldude
May 6, 2020
one fun thing if ginsberg dies will be watching all the bluecheck resistance types going "merrick garland much my good sir" as mcconnell serenely jams through justin walker to take her seat six weeks before the election
https://twitter.com/allahliker/statu...14239823970304

Lol off by four days.

Helldude is one host of the ALAB podcast, which has been consistently trashing both Ginsburg and Breyer for not retiring in 2013 long before the recent news.
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Old 21st September 2020, 05:52 AM   #341
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Other than the hypocrisy and that trump is a bad president (pretty good reasons), what is the case for waiting?
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Old 21st September 2020, 06:01 AM   #342
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I'm two minds about all of this.

Yes on a practical level it was so boneheaded of the Democrats to not see this coming. But as I said the Democrats always govern as if they are planning to be in power forever.

But if I'm completely honest I just bristle at throwing appointments on the fire with voting and legislation and... well hell everything else at this point, as yet another thing that we have to "strategically." I pine for the days when people in power, even the people I disagree with, can just do what they think is best for the country and not factor in some Moneyball political calculations into it.

I spend most of my time in political discourse annoyed that Democrats act too good to be playing politics whenever they are losing at it, but if everything's a power play then sooner or later power becomes the only thing anyone is actually arguing for.

I hate the fact that the system exists and I hate the fact that the Democrats both pretend it doesn't exist and play it so badly.
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Old 21st September 2020, 06:19 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm two minds about all of this.

Yes on a practical level it was so boneheaded of the Democrats to not see this coming. But as I said the Democrats always govern as if they are planning to be in power forever.

But if I'm completely honest I just bristle at throwing appointments on the fire with voting and legislation and... well hell everything else at this point, as yet another thing that we have to "strategically." I pine for the days when people in power, even the people I disagree with, can just do what they think is best for the country and not factor in some Moneyball political calculations into it.

I spend most of my time in political discourse annoyed that Democrats act too good to be playing politics whenever they are losing at it, but if everything's a power play then sooner or later power becomes the only thing anyone is actually arguing for.

I hate the fact that the system exists and I hate the fact that the Democrats both pretend it doesn't exist and play it so badly.
I'm not clear on what a better Democrat strategy would be. Republicans control the senate and can scuttle a nomination they don't want and speed up ones they do.

There can be a ton of talk about delay vs no vote vs hypocrisy...but it just is party in control enacts their preferences. What they say about their reasons is moot.

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Old 21st September 2020, 06:29 AM   #344
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Trump on fox

"I don't know that she said that, or was that written out by Adam Schiff & Schumer & Pelosi? I would be more inclined for the second" -- Trump claims Schiff, Schumer, & Pelosi actually wrote RBG's dying statement, & suggests she'd actually be fine w/him nominating her replacement
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Old 21st September 2020, 06:29 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes on a practical level it was so boneheaded of the Democrats to not see this coming. But as I said the Democrats always govern as if they are planning to be in power forever.
I can visualize a scenario where Biden wins by a comfortable margin, the Democrats win the Senate and hold the House. Then spend the next four years governing sanely and getting lots of things done.

In that case, while the Democrats will not be in power forever, the Republican Party as it exists today may never take the reins of power again - the level of disgust over Trump and his sycophants among a majority of the population, including former Republicans like myself, just runs too deep. It will have to reinvent itself as a “New Republican Party”, or maybe the true conservatives will simply flee the party and start a new one.

As to packing the court, if Trump rams through a new Justice and goes on to lose the election, the Democrats would be more than justified in raising the number of justices to 11, to compensate for the two “stolen” seats and to bring the court back to some semblance of balance.

Will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
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Old 21st September 2020, 06:34 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump on fox

"I don't know that she said that, or was that written out by Adam Schiff & Schumer & Pelosi? I would be more inclined for the second" -- Trump claims Schiff, Schumer, & Pelosi actually wrote RBG's dying statement, & suggests she'd actually be fine w/him nominating her replacement
Insert the Ser Selmy "But those are the King's words!" scene here...
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Old 21st September 2020, 06:51 AM   #347
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According to McConnell in 2016, Obama had no right to expect a SC nominee of his choosing to pass because he was a lame-duck President, and the next President, chosen by the people's voice, should have that expectation; in that way, the people would have a voice in the SC makeup- that's at least an arguably valid position (if a little extra-Constitutional).

Further (and necessary) refining of McConnell's "principle" has been that the midterms of 2014, which gave the GOP a Senate majority, was the voice of the people telling McConnell that he could block Obama's nominees, presumably for the whole two years remaining of his term (that didn't come to a test, so it's hypothetical, but seems at least implied by the argument); and McConnell has said that the further "extension" (I think that was his term) of the GOP senate majority in the 2018 midterm was also an extension of the earlier endorsement by "the people's voice" to pretty much give Trump whatever he wanted.

So, my question is this- suppose (unlikely but possible) Trump wins re-election but the GOP lose their Senate majority? Does that mean that McConnell will concede that the people have decided, by their voice in his (refined) "principle," that now the Dems have the right, for at least the next two years, to block any Trump appointees to the SC? After all, despite Trump's "jokes" to the contrary, he will be as much a lame duck from the first day of his second term as Obama was the last two years of his.

Does McConnell not understand the implications of what he's arguing now for the sake of political expediency? It’s not just that any future president who is ever faced with a Senate majority of the opposing party can’t expect the ability to get a nominee passed, he won’t realistically have the right to even name one. And the one branch of government that absolutely does need to be independent of politics becomes subsumed in it. In the real world, the SC has always been politicized to a degree, but the design was at least to keep it separate. If McConnell's way is followed, the price is to now expressly make the Court political.
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Old 21st September 2020, 06:56 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Does McConnell not understand the implications of what he's arguing now for the sake of political expediency?
He understands exactly what he's doing.

Yet again the Republicans aren't blindly blundering into hypocrisy by accident. The fact that he's a hypocrite hasn't slipped McConnell's mind.

McConnell knows he's a hypocrite better than you or I do. Because to people like McConnell "hypocrites" are winners, people who can do something but their enemy's can't simply because they say-so.

Yeah McConnell's a hypocrite. And that means he's gonna get his Supreme Court nomination and we didn't. That's a win for him.
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Old 21st September 2020, 07:09 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How did your SC become so incredibly politicised and partisan?

Basically the US constitution is a terrible system and the perception of a independent judiciary was the duck tape holding the whole thing together. A ton of power ended up in their hands, almost all of which was the result of the amendment process being way too restrictive.

People more and more began to understand this and conservative interests finally made taking over the courts a goal and were not at all sly about it.
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Old 21st September 2020, 07:14 AM   #350
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I'm not disagreeing with you on the whole. However:
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
McConnell knows he's a hypocrite better than you or I do.
In order to know he's a hypocrite, he would have to care enough about hypocrisy to take the trouble to evaluate himself in those terms. I doubt that he does.

It's like asking an atheist why they hate God. Atheists don't care about any gods enough to love or hate them. It's just a thing other people believe is real, not worth an emotional designation.
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Old 21st September 2020, 07:14 AM   #351
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If the Amendment Process was easier it is a metaphysical certainty the same Conservative Right that has packed the courses would have enshrined all their preferred Dogma into the Constitution.

Four times in the last decade they've tried to put "Marriage is between a Man and a Woman because of the baby Jeesuz" in the Constitution.

The "Human Life Amendment" that would have killed Roe Vs Wade only lost by 18 votes.

Flag Burning Amendments, School Prayer Amendments, all proposed by the Right. Maybe don't make it easier for them to complete them.
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Old 21st September 2020, 07:18 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Does McConnell not understand the implications of what he's arguing now for the sake of political expediency? It’s not just that any future president who is ever faced with a Senate majority of the opposing party can’t expect the ability to get a nominee passed, he won’t realistically have the right to even name one. And the one branch of government that absolutely does need to be independent of politics becomes subsumed in it. In the real world, the SC has always been politicized to a degree, but the design was at least to keep it separate. If McConnell's way is followed, the price is to now expressly make the Court political.
He sees no reason to consider making it political by putting it on his side for a long time to come as a negative.
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Old 21st September 2020, 07:32 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump on fox

"I don't know that she said that, or was that written out by Adam Schiff & Schumer & Pelosi? I would be more inclined for the second" -- Trump claims Schiff, Schumer, & Pelosi actually wrote RBG's dying statement, & suggests she'd actually be fine w/him nominating her replacement
I mentioned this dying statement earlier:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post13229157

But I'd only seen it on Twitter, second- or third-hand, with no actual cite or reference. Does anyone know the origin of this claim about her dying statement?

Is the statement worth considering in the context of filling the vacancy? Does that consideration change if it turns out she didn't say it?
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Old 21st September 2020, 07:40 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mentioned this dying statement earlier:



http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post13229157



But I'd only seen it on Twitter, second- or third-hand, with no actual cite or reference. Does anyone know the origin of this claim about her dying statement?



Is the statement worth considering in the context of filling the vacancy? Does that consideration change if it turns out she didn't say it?
The statement was dictated to a family member in the short time before her death.

Basically stubby Mcbonespurs is accusing the Ginsburg family of lying.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/18/10030...ity-dies-at-87

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Old 21st September 2020, 07:40 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If the Amendment Process was easier it is a metaphysical certainty the same Conservative Right that has packed the courses would have enshrined all their preferred Dogma into the Constitution.

Four times in the last decade they've tried to put "Marriage is between a Man and a Woman because of the baby Jeesuz" in the Constitution.

The "Human Life Amendment" that would have killed Roe Vs Wade only lost by 18 votes.

Flag Burning Amendments, School Prayer Amendments, all proposed by the Right. Maybe don't make it easier for them to complete them.
This assumes that a lot of the present political landscape would be remotely similar given this system. A constitution that can be amended with less than what amounts to a total consensus changes things a ton. Most of the reason for the conservatives dedicating themselves to taking over the courts is that a lot of progressive goals were accomplished by court decision at a time when those goals weren't all that popular.


It has been a historical anomaly that for a few decades we had a court that promoted progressive goals rather than be a reactionary doorstop thwarting same.
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Old 21st September 2020, 07:48 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
If McConnell's way is followed, the price is to now expressly make the Court political.
It already is. Understanding that this is a fact of life would be a great help to Democrats facing decades of a hostile federal court system.

We got here by the GOP selectively ignoring or destroying historical norms that defined the way the government worked.

Democrats, if they get the chance, have to do likewise else they will not be able to reshape the government. A big part of that is accepting that the courts have become political and end the norm that the Court is given what amounts to total deference.
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Old 21st September 2020, 07:49 AM   #357
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"If we had changed the Amendment process 50, 100, 150, 200 years ago" and "If we change the amendment process now" are completely different questions.

In our current political landscape if you give "The government" as a generic entity more power or make its processes easier, the Right will take advantage of that more than the Left. The Right isn't held back by scruples or moral consistency or that pesky "base humanity" or "Facts exist" nonsense.
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Old 21st September 2020, 08:15 AM   #358
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Something I haven't seen mentioned yet is that voting has started. We are not just in an election year, but actively in the process of electing. I believe it is North Carolina that started accepting cast ballots last week.
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Old 21st September 2020, 08:16 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"If we had changed the Amendment process 50, 100, 150, 200 years ago" and "If we change the amendment process now" are completely different questions.
Not really. The former illustrates why change would be a good idea. Giving this power to the Courts has historically caused untold damage to this country and we are about to see again why progressives should be leery of giving courts too much power.
Quote:

In our current political landscape if you give "The government" as a generic entity more power or make its processes easier, the Right will take advantage of that more than the Left. The Right isn't held back by scruples or moral consistency or that pesky "base humanity" or "Facts exist" nonsense.
They also have less support. All of their power comes from the non-democratic elements of our society. What can be changed more easily can also be changed back easily. Good luck working within present norms the next 40 years with a durable extreme right wing Supreme Court majority plus a federal court system packed with federalist society operatives.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:15 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The statement was dictated to a family member in the short time before her death.

Basically stubby Mcbonespurs is accusing the Ginsburg family of lying.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/18/10030...ity-dies-at-87
From NPR:

"Just days before her death, as her strength waned, Ginsburg dictated this statement to her granddaughter Clara Spera: "My most fervent wish is that I will not be replaced until a new president is installed."
Presumably Clara Spera is on record somewhere, making the claim herself in her own words. I think we can agree that we don't need to accuse anyone of lying, to say the statement should be verified before taking it seriously.

Assuming the statement needs to be taken seriously at all. I'm more interested in that than in the question of whether she actually said it. If the statement doesn't matter in terms of filling the vacancy, then the question of whether it's real is entirely moot.

On the other hand, if the statement does need to be taken seriously, then obviously we can't just take Spera's word for it. We'd want to verify it in some way. At that point, "how dare you accuse her of lying!" is just an obfuscatory woo tactic.

Leaving aside the accusations of dishonesty for a moment: Do you think she actually made that statement? Do you think that statement should be a consideration in filling the vacancy on the bench?
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