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Old 28th September 2020, 09:22 AM   #201
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Beefing up the IRS and going after rich tax cheats isn't some moonshot commie hypothetical.
Your response to everything is "It's not that crazy" when nobody is saying that it. It's your totally inability to not demand we fight every fight at once.

We've got solid evidence that makes it all but certain that the standing President of the United States has committed massive tax fraud and other monetary crimes.

The first reflexive response from the Trumpers is "But whaddabouta all da other rich people doing the same thing!" whataboutism designed to either excuse or distract us.

Your first reflexive response is "But whaddabouta all da other rich people doing the same thing!" as well and it will accomplish the same levels of excusing and distraction rather you want it to or not.

You are horrible about this. Nothing is ever good enough for you because every battle you're sitting in the corner pissed that we aren't fighting the entire and winning the entire war right now this moment and making sure we all know about it.

I'm sorry that the Allied Victory in WWII didn't also defeat Stalin at the same time. I'm sorry that the polio vaccine didn't also cure cholera. I'm sorry that every solution for anything isn't a perfect solution for everything. Get over it.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:24 AM   #202
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Breaking my self-imposed silence on political issues to provide a Rush report. I know most people here don't listen to Rush, but they are curious how he and other high profile conservative yappers will respond.

The first words out of his mouth on his radio show today were, if I recall correctly, "They keep recycling this stuff." In other words, his take was that there was nothing to see here and we already knew everything and none of it matters anyway.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:25 AM   #203
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If Jeff Bezos is a tax cheat, he is smart enough not to run for public office. Presidential nominees are top 1% but pay a lot in taxes and have the ability to divest.

The tax info just paints another picture of a person who may not be able to divest.

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Old 28th September 2020, 09:29 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Not really seeing a lot of discourse on this, but there's like 0% chance that this kind of tax avoidance isn't extremely common among the wealthy, right?
...
Wide-scale tax evasion by the wealthy seems like an issue that could really drum up popular support that could lead to a political mandate,
Keep in mind that there is a difference between "tax avoidance" (which involves the use of legal loopholes) and the type of fraud that Trump appears to be engaged in.

When you attempt to equate what Trump is doing to what "all the rich people are doing", you risk portraying Trump as just some sort of smart/savvy businessman rather than the criminal that he is.

There may be a justification for closing various tax loopholes. I think its just a mistake to try to take Trump's criminal actions and use it as a "make the rich pay" campaign talking point.

Quote:
but I guess I'm just dreaming of a different Democratic Party that actually believed in such things.
Biden (you, know, the MODERATE democratic candidate) has already proposed increasing corporate taxes and taxes on the wealthy, equalizing taxes paid on wages vs. investments, etc.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:34 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes both Jeff Bezos and Donald Trump cheat on their taxes.
Does Bezos cheat on his taxes? I'm sure tax laws are really friendly to him and he's got the best tax lawyers in the universe, but do we have evidence of actual tax fraud by him (Jeff Bezos the individual, not Amazon)?

And what about bank and mortgage fraud, do we make blanket accusations of every rich person about those too?
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:35 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Your response to everything is "It's not that crazy" when nobody is saying that it. It's your totally inability to not demand we fight every fight at once.

We've got solid evidence that makes it all but certain that the standing President of the United States has committed massive tax fraud and other monetary crimes.

The first reflexive response from the Trumpers is "But whaddabouta all da other rich people doing the same thing!" whataboutism designed to either excuse or distract us.

Your first reflexive response is "But whaddabouta all da other rich people doing the same thing!" as well and it will accomplish the same levels of excusing and distraction rather you want it to or not.

You are horrible about this. Nothing is ever good enough for you because every battle you're sitting in the corner pissed that we aren't fighting the entire and winning the entire war right now this moment and making sure we all know about it.

I'm sorry that the Allied Victory in WWII didn't also defeat Stalin at the same time. I'm sorry that the polio vaccine didn't also cure cholera. I'm sorry that every solution for anything isn't a perfect solution for everything. Get over it.
So what are we gonna do about it then? I don't see much of anything happening, much less trying to do everything at once.

Is Pelosi gonna impeach? We know how that will end, but it's probably worth the effort if we are even going to pretend to believe in legislative oversight.

Barr's DOJ sure as **** isn't going to prosecute it. Are we just going to cross our fingers and hope the NY AG goes after it?

I don't see why we can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Does the House have anything better to do?

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Keep in mind that there is a difference between "tax avoidance" (which involves the use of legal loopholes) and the type of fraud that Trump appears to be engaged in.

When you attempt to equate what Trump is doing to what "all the rich people are doing", you risk portraying Trump as just some sort of smart/savvy businessman rather than the criminal that he is.

There may be a justification for closing various tax loopholes. I think its just a mistake to try to take Trump's criminal actions and use it as a "make the rich pay" campaign talking point.


Biden (you, know, the MODERATE democratic candidate) has already proposed increasing corporate taxes and taxes on the wealthy, equalizing taxes paid on wages vs. investments, etc.
Much of this tax avoidance might not be strictly criminal, but might still result in a failed audit and back taxes due to the IRS with fees. There's plenty of grey area between lawful and tax fraud that the IRS can operate in.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:37 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Does Bezos cheat on his taxes? I'm sure tax laws are really friendly to him and he's got the best tax lawyers in the universe, but do we have evidence of actual tax fraud by him (Jeff Bezos the individual, not Amazon)?
Not in the legal sense, most probably not. Oh I'm sure he has an army of accounts and lawyers to get him as close to cheating but stay one toe in legal as possible, but... well let's just say I don't see a NYT expose on Bezos anytime real soon.

Which is again why "OKAY BUT EVERYBODY STOP TALKING ABOUT TRUMP AND TALK ABOUT OTHER RICH PEOPLE TOO!" is a very, very, very bad idea.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:39 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Trump seems a bit more transparent in his scamming, but do you think most other wealthy people aren't engaged in similar tax avoidance that frequently crosses over into outright fraud?

.
Not so much. They have the system so gamed that fraud would be lazy.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:39 AM   #209
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Hate to jump the gun on Captain Swoop, but wanted to comment on this...

Part of Trump's tweet:
The Fake News Media, just like Election time 2016, is bringing up my Taxes & all sorts of other nonsense with illegally obtained information & only bad intent.

So what is it, is it 'nonsense' (indicating it was somehow made up/inaccurate), or is it 'illegally obtained' (which suggests its accurate)?

Never mind the fact that there is nothing illegal about a media source publishing information they obtain, and since we don't currently know the source, the suggestion that it is 'illegally obtained' is a questionable accusation.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:41 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
So what are we gonna do about it then? I don't see much of anything happening, much less trying to do everything at once.
Of course you don't because your idea of "something happening" only accepts "Uprising"

You don't want change. You want revolution. It's why you reject anyone who wants to fix the system as not pure enough.

You don't care Biden isn't "progressive" enough*. You care that he isn't combative enough. You want him to stand there and waste time reminding all us that "The system was broken the entire time and if you support me you'll be able to tell everyone I toldyaso."

You are far more interested in being proven right about how much things always sucked then you are in making anything better.

*https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/21/opini...hen/index.html
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:41 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not in the legal sense, most probably not. Oh I'm sure he has an army of accounts and lawyers to get him as close to cheating but stay one toe in legal as possible, but... well let's just say I don't see a NYT expose on Bezos anytime real soon.

Which is again why "OKAY BUT EVERYBODY STOP TALKING ABOUT TRUMP AND TALK ABOUT OTHER RICH PEOPLE TOO!" is a very, very, very bad idea.
Trump is going to say that this is just what rich people do. Having a response to that seems like a good idea. He bragged about not paying taxes back in 2016 during the debate. The details are new, but the broad strokes are old news.

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/26/trum...-me-smart.html

Who is out there that is willing to realize Trump is a crook that hasn't done so already? The MAGA types don't care, he's there crooks. Taking real strides to actually curtail tax avoidance by the wealthy breathes fresh life into this stale issue.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:42 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Of course you don't because your idea of "something happening" only accepts "Uprising"

You don't want change. You want revolution. It's why you reject anyone who wants to fix the system as not pure enough.

You don't care Biden isn't "progressive" enough*. You care that he isn't combative enough. You want him to stand there and waste time reminding all us that "The system was broken the entire time and if you support me you'll be able to tell everyone I toldyaso."

You are far more interested in being proven right about how much things always sucked then you are in making anything better.

*https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/21/opini...hen/index.html
Giving the IRS a bit more money and a directive is an uprising? I know you think I'm some SR champing at the bit to get shot dead on a barricade, but I'm literally talking about making admin policy at the IRS here. This is as institutional as it gets my man.

Surely I'll be saying some commie **** in some other thread soon enough that you can mock me for there. Don't be so silly in this thread. I'm literally advocating a budget increase in the IRS for the purpose of increasing auditing of the ultra wealthy tax avoiders. This isn't revolutionary.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:43 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Trump is going to say that this is just what rich people do.
Yeah. THE EXACT SAME THING YOU'RE SAYING.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:46 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Trump is going to say that this is just what rich people do. Having a response to that seems like a good idea.
Real rich people also give a lot to charities, unlike you-know-who.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:47 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah. THE EXACT SAME THING YOU'RE SAYING.
Seems like having a response to "all the rich kids do it" is a good idea. Like passing a bill through the house that directly impacts people like Trump.

Tax fairness is an idea with broad appeal. This is a layup. It won't pass, because the Republicans, but it gets a bit of dirt on their faces and keeps Trump's fraud in the news longer.

What should Pelosi be doing with this info, if not trying to use a bill to further hilite Trump's hypocrisy? Perhaps my idea is not the best use of the House's time. What else should they be doing on this issue to score points right before the election?
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:53 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
So what are we gonna do about it then? I don't see much of anything happening, much less trying to do everything at once.

Is Pelosi gonna impeach? We know how that will end, but it's probably worth the effort if we are even going to pretend to believe in legislative oversight.

Barr's DOJ sure as **** isn't going to prosecute it.
Probably not. There is a chance that if Trump loses (which polls suggest is more likely than him winning) that an incoming DOJ under Biden might go after him.

Of course there is a chance that they could pull a Ford/Nixon "We need to move past this/let the country heal", which I think would be a big mistake.
Quote:
Are we just going to cross our fingers and hope the NY AG goes after it?
Prosecutors from NY were already going after Trump. Remember the supreme court rulings that Trump's financial records were not protected just because he's president? Remember they are pushing Eric Trump to testify? Trump is still trying to block access to the records (with an accusation that the demands are too broad, but it does not look like the appeals court is too happy with that argument.)

Much of the material that the NYT was analyzing would have become available to prosecutors in NY eventually. (It wouldn't have been made public right away, but they could certainly act on it.) And prosecutors would also have access to information that wasn't available to the NYT (such as compelled testimony, other financial records not associated with taxes, etc.)
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:54 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Probably not. There is a chance that if Trump loses (which polls suggest is more likely than him winning) that an incoming DOJ under Biden might go after him.

Of course there is a chance that they could pull a Ford/Nixon "We need to move past this/let the country heal", which I think would be a big mistake.

Prosecutors from NY were already going after Trump. Remember the supreme court rulings that Trump's financial records were not protected just because he's president? Remember they are pushing Eric Trump to testify? Trump is still trying to block access to the records (with an accusation that the demands are too broad, but it does not look like the appeals court is too happy with that argument.)

Much of the material that the NYT was analyzing would have become available to prosecutors in NY eventually. (It wouldn't have been made public right away, but they could certainly act on it.) And prosecutors would also have access to information that wasn't available to the NYT (such as compelled testimony, other financial records not associated with taxes, etc.)
Seems very unlikely there is criminal action before the election. At best, the NY AG or new Biden AG can extract vengeance, but Trump needs to lose first.

Again, none of this really impacts the House or the Democratic Party. Whether or not the NY AG is working on this is beyond our control. What should the Democrats who wield political power be doing about this news? Right now, it seems like not much.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:56 AM   #218
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House hearings might be happening, though.

But I doubt it.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:57 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
.... with enough companies in enough countries, there are opportunities for all kinds of tax shenanigans. ....
That's really all you needed to say.
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:59 AM   #220
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And proving there's a trump tweet that will come back to bite him for all occasions:

Donald Trump tweet about Barack Obama’s taxes resurfaces in wake of New York Times revelations

Quote:
On Twitter in April 2012, Mr Trump wrote: "@BarackObama who wants to raise all our taxes, only pays 20.5% on $790k salary. Do as I say not as I do."
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Old 28th September 2020, 09:59 AM   #221
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Some say Trump being broke is the best wedge issue. Others, that he cheated.

I lean to the former, if the plan is to sow doubt in the MAGAhats. That Donnie cheats is a plus in their estimation; he's a rebel outside the system, doing what they'd like to do.

To stress that he's not the creature Mark Burnett built up, not the consummate winner in business that he pathologically pretends to be, well that could shake their faith in him as the man to "run the country like a business."

But word has first got to filter through the self-imposed media bubble around the cultists.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:00 AM   #222
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Another Trump tweet that hasn't aged at all well-

Quote:
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
@BarackObama who wants to raise all our taxes, only pays 20.5% on $790k salary. http://1.usa.gov/HFZJKH Do as I say not as I do.
1:19 PM · Apr 13, 2012·Twitter Web Client

ETA- ninja'd by Garrison.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:00 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So the NYT has given us the "eye opening revelation" (based on documents it hasn't disclosed) that Trump is no different to other 1 percenters. He has taken advantage of the complex tax laws to reduce his tax liability to practically nothing.

I'm shocked I tells you, SHOCKED!


Did that one fact stop you from noticing the rest: all the corruption and directly bilking the taxpayers?
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:01 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And proving there's a trump tweet that will come back to bite him for all occasions:

Donald Trump tweet about Barack Obama’s taxes resurfaces in wake of New York Times revelations
... except he cuts taxes?
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:01 AM   #225
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No Trump tweet has ever aged well, but that has yet to matter once.

Yes we know everytime Trump says something we can find a tweet that directly contradicts it to an almost comical degree.

Hasn't taken him down yet.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:03 AM   #226
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Here is a nice list of some of the most crucial points:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ident-finances

You will easily find that “they all don’t do it,” with Trump paying a total of less than 6% of the taxes from 2000 to 2007 of what the “average” percenter with equal declared earning would have paid over such a period. Trump’s average in fact doesn’t adequately show the details: in 11 of the 18 years the N.Y. Times were able to examine Trump paid zero and in 2 more years he paid $750 a year. 13 years and he paid a total of $1500 whereas a comparable percenter would have paid $3 million.

You can look over the rest for highly questionable deductions including those now under review for fraud.

I like not only the $70,000 for styling Donald’s hair but over $95,000 for styling Ivanka’s. Plus $26 million in consulting fees paid at least in part to a company owned by Ivanka.

Here is a detailed graphic list of his profits and losses helping to show what a great business man he is. Basically any business he has run has lost money:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...gtype=Homepage
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:04 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems very unlikely there is criminal action before the election. At best, the NY AG or new Biden AG can extract vengeance, but Trump needs to lose first.
I agree... there won't be any criminal action before the election. Heck, given the complexity of some of this stuff, you might not even see indictments handed down until next year (after Trump is hopefully voted out of office).

Plus there is the chance that Trump won't face actual jail time, and instead just be subject to fines and certain... limitations (like the results of the Trump foundation investigation). Still, given Trump's supposedly precarious financial situation, paying some huge fines (on top of various loans coming due) could drive him further into financial ruin.
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Again, none of this really impacts the House or the Democratic Party. Whether or not the NY AG is working on this is beyond our control. What should the Democrats who wield political power be doing about this news? Right now, it seems like not much.
Hard to say what they can do. They don't have the original documents so it makes it hard to do a direct investigation through congress. And even if they do investigate and verify Trump's illegal activity, there probably isn't enough time to impeach before the election anyways.

Best that can be done... use it as part of the election campaign. We've already seen some adds based on the NYT information.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:07 AM   #228
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No Trump tweet has ever aged well, but that has yet to matter once.

Yes we know everytime Trump says something we can find a tweet that directly contradicts it to an almost comical degree.

Hasn't taken him down yet.

You mentioned 538. Their model gives trump the same chance of winning as Biden getting over 420 electoral votes. Do you think that is accurate?
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:08 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
And then he deducts it as a business expense.
The world's oldest profession, they say.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:08 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Won't make a blind bit of difference to President Trump's standing in the polls.
Give it a week and let's see.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:09 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I think there is one immediate and very critical result that will come from the release of the tax returns:

no major law firm will represent him without cash up front.
I would have thought that was already a given.
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Thousands of COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:15 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
In 2017 when Trump paid $750 in taxes JoeBiden paid $3.7 million.
And Biden gave $1 million to charity, Trump gave $0.
That's a lovely contrast, isn't it.
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Thousands of COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:18 AM   #233
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If Trump asks his followers for money he'll get it.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:20 AM   #234
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Looks like Barr via Graham are planning an effort to re-take the news cycle.

cough***Benghazi/her emails***cough

Lindsey Graham Hints There is ‘More Damning’ Information about the Russia Investigation to be Released

That so called damning information is more discrediting of the Steele dossier, repeating the claim the investigation into the Trump campaign team was under false premises. Psst, don't repeat the fact the dossier was not key to the initiation of the investigation.

Poor widdle Trumpy, people are so mean to him.
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Thousands of COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 28th September 2020 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:22 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
He's paid more to pornstars in the past 10 years than he's paid in taxes.
Ponder that for a min.

Also $70,000 on hairdressing?
He's really getting ripped off to pay that much money for such horrible results.

I still think that the attraction between Trump and Kim Jung Un was that each saw in the other's horrible hair, a kindred spirit
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:28 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You misunderstand. This is not in anyway a vindication of Trump.

We all knew that Trump was a dishonest crook long before the "startling" revelations in the NYT so this sudden shocked and outraged reaction is over the top.


From the ARTICLE:
In response to a letter summarizing The Times’s findings, Alan Garten, a lawyer for the Trump Organization, said that “most, if not all, of the facts appear to be inaccurate” and requested the documents on which they were based. After The Times declined to provide the records, in order to protect its sources, Mr. Garten took direct issue only with the amount of taxes Mr. Trump had paid.
So not only do we don't know if the documents the article was based on are genuine, we have to rely on the NYT's interpretation of the documents.

The NYT article is almost certainly not "fake news" but otherwise, all of the numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt.
The NYT has such a record of tabloid journalism.
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Thousands of COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:32 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No Trump tweet has ever aged well, but that has yet to matter once.

Yes we know everytime Trump says something we can find a tweet that directly contradicts it to an almost comical degree.

Hasn't taken him down yet.
Well, you know...drip, drip, drip. It isn't about any one thing taking him down, it's about how the weight of it all affects the moderate vote. Yeah, the MAGAhats will dismiss every bit of evidence for Trump's unfitness for his office, those are not minds that can be changed; my hope (emphasis on "hope") is that there are still enough truly undecided whose minds can be engaged to care to tip the vote away from him. And what ends up being a deciding factor in the election will be debatable- my personal opinion is that this tax thing won't be as bothersome to people as the demonstrable hypocrisy the GOP has indulged in with filling Ginsburg's SC seat. Taxes are more an arcane subject than simple fair play.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:33 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The NYT has such a record of tabloid journalism.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:38 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
.....
Which is again why "OKAY BUT EVERYBODY STOP TALKING ABOUT TRUMP AND TALK ABOUT OTHER RICH PEOPLE TOO!" is a very, very, very bad idea.

It's also generally not true. Rich people benefit from favored treatment of investments, but according to this, they still pay.
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The richest 400 families in the US paid an average effective tax rate of 23 percent in 2018,
https://www.forbes.com/sites/howardg.../#f6c830b29ace
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:41 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
So where might Trump have broken various laws. Lets, see, we have:

- Bank Fraud (inflating the value of assets)

- Violating emoluments clause of the constitution (use of Trump properties by foreign governments... Trump claimed he was 'giving profits to the government' but that doesn't seem to be the case.)

- Tax laws regarding gift giving (hiring children as 'consultants')

What other laws might he have broken?

(Should be noted that those are only the laws that the NYT might have uncovered.... obviously there may be many more broken laws that you would need to uncover in other ways.)
Certainly wire fraud and probably perjury. If any of the payments like the one for hair dressing turn out to be to aid his campaign, he violated criminal (as opposed to administrative) election finance laws. He may also have issues if he personally benefited from using campaign funds or inaugural funds paid to his properties.
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